An Emotionless Assassin [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Emotionless Assassin [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Herr Doktor
08-19-03, 10:29 PM What Alignment would a an assassin (not simply by class name, but by actual profession) who feels no remorse nor pleasure in killing be?

He would follow any contracts to the letter and probably be rather depressed himself, not because he kills people, but because he's decided life is so meaningless and it really doesn't matter how it ends.

He doesn't want to torture, or harm really, he just does what he does because he is good at it and it doesn't bother him.

What do you say?
Janus Krug
08-19-03, 10:33 PM I'd say neutral evil, leaning towards neutral. No one who will willingly murder an innocent isn't evil.
Peter Bergholtz
08-19-03, 10:35 PM Hi.

I would make Him Lawful Evil. Evil because He takes life for money, something a good aligned person never would be able to do. Lawful because He follows a certain law of conduct and don´t feel pleasure nor pain from his chosen profession.

On the other hand, the alignment system sucks when it comes to create this type of complicated characters. And in my opinion - If his personality is so well created as You have described then You really have no actual need of alignment.

Hope this helps.
Janus Krug
08-19-03, 10:58 PM We need an alignment to see how the omniverse sees him. Whether or not he glows with detect evil, etc. etc.

The best way to handle it is to have the PC's alignment secret from everyone but the DM. It is the powers that be that decide if you're evil, that's the only way the insane wizard who is killing people to make intelligent golems who can lead existence to a new utopia can still be evil.
Fixxxer
08-19-03, 11:13 PM Lawful Evil. His profession is based around killing people and your description of him leads me to believe that he's very thorough and professional about it.
Haradim
08-19-03, 11:20 PM Originally posted by Herr Doktor
He would follow any contracts to the letter

This would indicate to me that he is LE.

His emotions and attitudes don't necessarily factor into alignment. You can have an emotionless Paladin, for example; as long as he's doing Good and obeying his Code, he will remain LG. He'll just be rather cold or aloof, showing no emotion.

Try to look at what your assassin does, and how he goes about it. Closely obeying contracts indicates a somewhat more ordered way of going about his business. There may be other elements that shed light on his alignment.

Though LN isn't completely out of the question, I think LE would probably fit better.
PaladinSix
08-20-03, 02:13 AM I'd say he must be Neutral Evil. To make him LE seems like a tempting choice, because he follows a certain code of professionalism, but murder for hire is essentially a non-lawful act. Regardless of how he goes about his job, the fact is that his job is not lawful in any sense of the word.
Mr. Wilson
08-20-03, 02:43 AM I this fits here.argue that Lawful Evil would be the correct way to answer this question.

A Neutral Evil character probably would not have the emotionally hang up's that this character has, as I generally so the NE alignment as Self-Serving Evil. I don't think this fits in this case.

And I would disagree about Murder for hire being a NE act, as in the case of guilds especially, a code of some sorts can be enacted.
rockfall22
08-20-03, 03:38 AM Neutral Evil.
MinusInnocence
08-20-03, 04:40 AM 'Law' in the Lawful Evil alignment has nothing to do with society's mandates, although those are sometimes an artificial outgrowth of Order which must be upheld.

It may be unlawful to kill people for money, or to kill people at all; but it is not un-Lawful.

Lawful Evil sounds good. He has a system of ethics (money = survival), which is a decidedly Lawful concept... and the only way for this system of ethics to flourish is to commit Evil, unsavory acts.
Ankalagon
08-20-03, 05:02 AM Is murdering for money truly Evil.

What do adventurers do?

Realistically you could justify any alignment, it's usually about perspective.

Were the Romans evil?, was William the Conqueror? is James Bond?

A Paladin that kills all Evil to cleanse the world of it's presence in my opinion is also Evil.
Slivvy Gaidin
08-20-03, 05:22 AM The assassin would most likely have a fairly low Charisma score, to reflect their cold, withdrawn personality.
Tzor
08-20-03, 09:20 AM Originally posted by Herr Doktor
What Alignment would a an assassin (not simply by class name, but by actual profession) who feels no remorse nor pleasure in killing be?

I would say Lawful Neutural.

Yes, you hear me ... Lawful Neutural.

It is important to notw that the "no remorse nor pleasure" is an important element in describing the alignment of the assassin. People who really do have no remorse nor pleasure tend to be exceptionally less human and more animal/mechanical. The Assassin is more described as a modron than a human. (Appoligies for using an obsolete planar creature ... I'm just square I guess.)

Being good or evil can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Being neutral on the good–evil axis usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. ... Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior.

The assassin is clearly not an amimal (the D&D definition) but the assassin clearly seems to have eliminated moral considerations alltogether. He does not kill for personal profit, he does not kill for the welfare of others, he only kills because this is simply what he does, without any consideration to himself or others. He is no more morally aware than a modron who has its function set to assassinations.

The quesiton changes should the assassin work for personal gain, or satisfaction, because you are re-introducing the moral dimension and forcing the assassin to acknowledge that he is performing evil acts ... thus making him or her evil.
sodo
08-20-03, 11:33 AM I'm balancing on lawfull evil to lawfull neutral.

A contract killer is a lawful evil person, he is in it for his own gains.

Lawful neutral is what modern army has as snipers. It's their job to kill specific people. They follow orders and do that, leaving the thinking and moral to their superiors. He's the executive force.
Theocracity
08-20-03, 11:42 AM Originally posted by Ankalagon
Is murdering for money truly Evil.

What do adventurers do?

Realistically you could justify any alignment, it's usually about perspective.

Were the Romans evil?, was William the Conqueror? is James Bond?

A Paladin that kills all Evil to cleanse the world of it's presence in my opinion is also Evil.

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.

I've had enough "Paladins are evil" discussions to make my head explode. D+D IS NOT BASED ON A RELATIVE MORAL SYSTEM.

That being said, I'd agree with those who say that the assassin would be Lawful Evil. Follows contracts rather than his own personal desires; thus he wouldn't be Neutral.
Oberon_of_Avalon
08-20-03, 11:51 AM I'd suggest Lawful Evil. A NE character is generally viewed as greedy, wanting it all for himself and not caring what happens to others. A CE character would kill someone because he's there. But LE characters have a set of morals, opinions, or a sound (if twisted) code of conduct they adhere to.
Argarnis
08-20-03, 12:03 PM If I would be the DM, I would place his destination for the afterlife at the Aceron, just between lawful neutral and lawful evil. On the char sheet I would wait with writing an alignment. And after offering two different contracts, one obliviosly evil, but more money and a obliviosly not that evil but lesser money I would decide on which side the coin will land.

PS: Hurray for relative moral systems!
BladeVenom
08-20-03, 03:24 PM He would definitely be evil. As to the Law-Chaos axis that is up for debate. I would say from the decription you have given there is not enough information for that.

He could be CE and only keeps his contracts because he needs a reliable repution to get work, not out of any self imposed morals (Lawful).

I think Lawful character should have some purpose guiding their lives that's part of what makes them lawful.

Neutral Evil would be in it for themselves.

He could very well be Chaotic because nothing matters to him.
Fixxxer
08-20-03, 03:26 PM but murder for hire is essentially a non-lawful act.

Why? What's so non-lawful about it?

Yes, it may be against the law of the land, but it's obviously not againt the PC's own personal code of laws.
Ankalagon
08-21-03, 05:10 AM Originally posted by Theocracity
SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP.

I've had enough "Paladins are evil" discussions to make my head explode. D+D IS NOT BASED ON A RELATIVE MORAL SYSTEM.

I think you'll find it is, otherwise why judge by alignment?
Forshon
08-21-03, 07:12 AM I'd say Lawful Neutral, except if he is actually an Assassin PrC, then he has to be evil. Unless they changed that.
KBAZZ
08-21-03, 08:25 AM When i do i bring up points like "what makes that band of trolls evil for killing this entire village was ti not this very village that contracted us to go kill the entire troll town?"
i mean yeah in d&d evill and good are supposed to be tought different but i think you really miss a roleplay opp. when you dont rp yer race correctly i mean why the hell do elf dwarf let alone savage species races have to fall on the humanity side of acts. After all that roving band of elf killing every human they see is responding to 300 years of deforestation and the rape of their entire world. But their the evil ones)P
I make my alignments grey that guy might glow evil to you but be assured you could be the same to him.
Nothing gets me going more as a gm then to have 1 of my party member do a foolish act like hard a woman or child of one of the monsters they came to kill so i can many levels down the road throw a rightous "bad guy" at them attempting to avenge his sister or mother
you should see the looks i get)P
"Yes you do smite evil on the bugbear and yes you heard me it took no extra damage ..yeah im saying it not evil."
"rool a int check" something i do alot if the pc's have super high ints over 16 give them a chance to tie **** toghter or remeber things their char. should of
"hes wearing a neckless that you last say on a female child bugbear you toasted with yer fireball 6 years ago"
it gets funny when the LG party member just back off and are like ok were not helping lol
Realms Walker
08-21-03, 09:16 AM LawFull Evil. And make sure he roleplays it out. No slipping or that is a major faupaut.
Erus
08-21-03, 09:36 AM Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil is where I would put him.

Let other elements of his personality make the choice between Neutral & Evil. Is he a bit of a dark hero? Does he want to see society fall because life has no meaning? What IS actually important to him? etc....

Good luck.
Erus.
Theocracity
08-21-03, 10:43 AM Originally posted by Ankalagon
I think you'll find it is, otherwise why judge by alignment?

Now that doesn't even make sense. If D+D was relative morality, then there wouldn't be any alignments.

I'd rather not discuss this ad nauseum, though.
Nifft
08-21-03, 11:08 AM In my campaign, you don't glow red with evil unless you have the [Evil] descriptor. Unless the Assassin is the cleric of an [Evil] God, or is an undead, or is under the influence of a spell or item with the [Evil] descriptor, or fulfills a couple of other conditions, he won't glow red.

A fully human non-magical mass-murderer will not glow red.

An innocent half-fiend will glow red, unless she becomes the priest of a [Good] God or a Paladin or some such.

An innocent human posessed by a Demon will glow red.

-- Nifft
Argarnis
08-22-03, 07:27 AM Originally posted by Forshon
I'd say Lawful Neutral, except if he is actually an Assassin PrC, then he has to be evil. Unless they changed that.

I changed it! In my camp. they can be of any alignment, cause it is okay for a good guy to kill the evil warlord secretly instead of going through all his minions.
Just as some harpers do.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Herr Doktor 08-19-03, 10:29 PM	What Alignment would a an assassin (not simply by class name, but by actual profession) who feels no remorse nor pleasure in killing be? He would follow any contracts to the letter and probably be rather depressed himself, not because he kills people, but because he's decided life is so meaningless and it really doesn't matter how it ends. He doesn't want to torture, or harm really, he just does what he does because he is good at it and it doesn't bother him. What do you say?
Janus Krug 08-19-03, 10:33 PM	I'd say neutral evil, leaning towards neutral. No one who will willingly murder an innocent isn't evil.
Peter Bergholtz 08-19-03, 10:35 PM	Hi. I would make Him Lawful Evil. Evil because He takes life for money, something a good aligned person never would be able to do. Lawful because He follows a certain law of conduct and don´t feel pleasure nor pain from his chosen profession. On the other hand, the alignment system sucks when it comes to create this type of complicated characters. And in my opinion - If his personality is so well created as You have described then You really have no actual need of alignment. Hope this helps.
Janus Krug 08-19-03, 10:58 PM	We need an alignment to see how the omniverse sees him. Whether or not he glows with detect evil, etc. etc. The best way to handle it is to have the PC's alignment secret from everyone but the DM. It is the powers that be that decide if you're evil, that's the only way the insane wizard who is killing people to make intelligent golems who can lead existence to a new utopia can still be evil.
Fixxxer 08-19-03, 11:13 PM	Lawful Evil. His profession is based around killing people and your description of him leads me to believe that he's very thorough and professional about it.
Haradim 08-19-03, 11:20 PM	Originally posted by Herr Doktor He would follow any contracts to the letter This would indicate to me that he is LE. His emotions and attitudes don't necessarily factor into alignment. You can have an emotionless Paladin, for example; as long as he's doing Good and obeying his Code, he will remain LG. He'll just be rather cold or aloof, showing no emotion. Try to look at what your assassin does, and how he goes about it. Closely obeying contracts indicates a somewhat more ordered way of going about his business. There may be other elements that shed light on his alignment. Though LN isn't completely out of the question, I think LE would probably fit better.
PaladinSix 08-20-03, 02:13 AM	I'd say he must be Neutral Evil. To make him LE seems like a tempting choice, because he follows a certain code of professionalism, but murder for hire is essentially a non-lawful act. Regardless of how he goes about his job, the fact is that his job is not lawful in any sense of the word.
Mr. Wilson 08-20-03, 02:43 AM	I this fits here.argue that Lawful Evil would be the correct way to answer this question. A Neutral Evil character probably would not have the emotionally hang up's that this character has, as I generally so the NE alignment as Self-Serving Evil. I don't think this fits in this case. And I would disagree about Murder for hire being a NE act, as in the case of guilds especially, a code of some sorts can be enacted.
rockfall22 08-20-03, 03:38 AM	Neutral Evil.
MinusInnocence 08-20-03, 04:40 AM	'Law' in the Lawful Evil alignment has nothing to do with society's mandates, although those are sometimes an artificial outgrowth of Order which must be upheld. It may be unlawful to kill people for money, or to kill people at all; but it is not un-Lawful. Lawful Evil sounds good. He has a system of ethics (money = survival), which is a decidedly Lawful concept... and the only way for this system of ethics to flourish is to commit Evil, unsavory acts.
Ankalagon 08-20-03, 05:02 AM	Is murdering for money truly Evil. What do adventurers do? Realistically you could justify any alignment, it's usually about perspective. Were the Romans evil?, was William the Conqueror? is James Bond? A Paladin that kills all Evil to cleanse the world of it's presence in my opinion is also Evil.
Slivvy Gaidin 08-20-03, 05:22 AM	The assassin would most likely have a fairly low Charisma score, to reflect their cold, withdrawn personality.
Tzor 08-20-03, 09:20 AM	Originally posted by Herr Doktor What Alignment would a an assassin (not simply by class name, but by actual profession) who feels no remorse nor pleasure in killing be? I would say Lawful Neutural. Yes, you hear me ... Lawful Neutural. It is important to notw that the "no remorse nor pleasure" is an important element in describing the alignment of the assassin. People who really do have no remorse nor pleasure tend to be exceptionally less human and more animal/mechanical. The Assassin is more described as a modron than a human. (Appoligies for using an obsolete planar creature ... I'm just square I guess.) Being good or evil can be a conscious choice. For most people, though, being good or evil is an attitude that one recognizes but does not choose. Being neutral on the good–evil axis usually represents a lack of commitment one way or the other, but for some it represents a positive commitment to a balanced view. ... Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil. Even deadly vipers and tigers that eat people are neutral because they lack the capacity for morally right or wrong behavior. The assassin is clearly not an amimal (the D&D definition) but the assassin clearly seems to have eliminated moral considerations alltogether. He does not kill for personal profit, he does not kill for the welfare of others, he only kills because this is simply what he does, without any consideration to himself or others. He is no more morally aware than a modron who has its function set to assassinations. The quesiton changes should the assassin work for personal gain, or satisfaction, because you are re-introducing the moral dimension and forcing the assassin to acknowledge that he is performing evil acts ... thus making him or her evil.
sodo 08-20-03, 11:33 AM	I'm balancing on lawfull evil to lawfull neutral. A contract killer is a lawful evil person, he is in it for his own gains. Lawful neutral is what modern army has as snipers. It's their job to kill specific people. They follow orders and do that, leaving the thinking and moral to their superiors. He's the executive force.
Theocracity 08-20-03, 11:42 AM	Originally posted by Ankalagon Is murdering for money truly Evil. What do adventurers do? Realistically you could justify any alignment, it's usually about perspective. Were the Romans evil?, was William the Conqueror? is James Bond? A Paladin that kills all Evil to cleanse the world of it's presence in my opinion is also Evil. SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP. I've had enough "Paladins are evil" discussions to make my head explode. D+D IS NOT BASED ON A RELATIVE MORAL SYSTEM. That being said, I'd agree with those who say that the assassin would be Lawful Evil. Follows contracts rather than his own personal desires; thus he wouldn't be Neutral.
Oberon_of_Avalon 08-20-03, 11:51 AM	I'd suggest Lawful Evil. A NE character is generally viewed as greedy, wanting it all for himself and not caring what happens to others. A CE character would kill someone because he's there. But LE characters have a set of morals, opinions, or a sound (if twisted) code of conduct they adhere to.
Argarnis 08-20-03, 12:03 PM	If I would be the DM, I would place his destination for the afterlife at the Aceron, just between lawful neutral and lawful evil. On the char sheet I would wait with writing an alignment. And after offering two different contracts, one obliviosly evil, but more money and a obliviosly not that evil but lesser money I would decide on which side the coin will land. PS: Hurray for relative moral systems!
BladeVenom 08-20-03, 03:24 PM	He would definitely be evil. As to the Law-Chaos axis that is up for debate. I would say from the decription you have given there is not enough information for that. He could be CE and only keeps his contracts because he needs a reliable repution to get work, not out of any self imposed morals (Lawful). I think Lawful character should have some purpose guiding their lives that's part of what makes them lawful. Neutral Evil would be in it for themselves. He could very well be Chaotic because nothing matters to him.
Fixxxer 08-20-03, 03:26 PM	but murder for hire is essentially a non-lawful act. Why? What's so non-lawful about it? Yes, it may be against the law of the land, but it's obviously not againt the PC's own personal code of laws.
Ankalagon 08-21-03, 05:10 AM	Originally posted by Theocracity SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP. I've had enough "Paladins are evil" discussions to make my head explode. D+D IS NOT BASED ON A RELATIVE MORAL SYSTEM. I think you'll find it is, otherwise why judge by alignment?
Forshon 08-21-03, 07:12 AM	I'd say Lawful Neutral, except if he is actually an Assassin PrC, then he has to be evil. Unless they changed that.
KBAZZ 08-21-03, 08:25 AM	When i do i bring up points like "what makes that band of trolls evil for killing this entire village was ti not this very village that contracted us to go kill the entire troll town?" i mean yeah in d&d evill and good are supposed to be tought different but i think you really miss a roleplay opp. when you dont rp yer race correctly i mean why the hell do elf dwarf let alone savage species races have to fall on the humanity side of acts. After all that roving band of elf killing every human they see is responding to 300 years of deforestation and the rape of their entire world. But their the evil ones)P I make my alignments grey that guy might glow evil to you but be assured you could be the same to him. Nothing gets me going more as a gm then to have 1 of my party member do a foolish act like hard a woman or child of one of the monsters they came to kill so i can many levels down the road throw a rightous "bad guy" at them attempting to avenge his sister or mother you should see the looks i get)P "Yes you do smite evil on the bugbear and yes you heard me it took no extra damage ..yeah im saying it not evil." "rool a int check" something i do alot if the pc's have super high ints over 16 give them a chance to tie **** toghter or remeber things their char. should of "hes wearing a neckless that you last say on a female child bugbear you toasted with yer fireball 6 years ago" it gets funny when the LG party member just back off and are like ok were not helping lol
Realms Walker 08-21-03, 09:16 AM	LawFull Evil. And make sure he roleplays it out. No slipping or that is a major faupaut.
Erus 08-21-03, 09:36 AM	Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil is where I would put him. Let other elements of his personality make the choice between Neutral & Evil. Is he a bit of a dark hero? Does he want to see society fall because life has no meaning? What IS actually important to him? etc.... Good luck. Erus.
Theocracity 08-21-03, 10:43 AM	Originally posted by Ankalagon I think you'll find it is, otherwise why judge by alignment? Now that doesn't even make sense. If D+D was relative morality, then there wouldn't be any alignments. I'd rather not discuss this ad nauseum, though.
Nifft 08-21-03, 11:08 AM	In my campaign, you don't glow red with evil unless you have the [Evil] descriptor. Unless the Assassin is the cleric of an [Evil] God, or is an undead, or is under the influence of a spell or item with the [Evil] descriptor, or fulfills a couple of other conditions, he won't glow red. A fully human non-magical mass-murderer will not glow red. An innocent half-fiend will glow red, unless she becomes the priest of a [Good] God or a Paladin or some such. An innocent human posessed by a Demon will glow red. -- Nifft
Argarnis 08-22-03, 07:27 AM	Originally posted by Forshon I'd say Lawful Neutral, except if he is actually an Assassin PrC, then he has to be evil. Unless they changed that. I changed it! In my camp. they can be of any alignment, cause it is okay for a good guy to kill the evil warlord secretly instead of going through all his minions. Just as some harpers do.