Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Majorafire77 05-05-06, 02:47 PM	I'm planning on starting up the Sons of Gruumsh adventure for a few of my friends and I. One has told me that he plans on being a half-celestial exalted character, and the other has told me that he wants to be a blackguard. Both know of each other's plans and think that it'd be alright for the two to travel together. I honestly can't think of any reason or background story that would validate a character of the blackest evil peaceably traveling with an exalted super-good character, and I'm really not sure if I should let them do it at all. What should I do?
NabraKaj 05-05-06, 02:50 PM	No potential danger here at all lol
Silverthumb128 05-05-06, 02:56 PM	No potential danger here at all lol Well put. How do your players justify having a blackguard and a half-celestial in the party? You're right that it probably isn't a great idea. Though, I suppose that if they already are aware, there won't be much conflict. It makes me curious as to how much they're actually going to roleplay the characters, as opposed to "I really like the stat boosts" or "I really like the class abilities." Maybe they do have a good idea going? Maybe they're two separate halves of what was a whole person(white and black, yin and yang, that sort), and are adventuring in order to bring them back into wholeness? Doubtful, but I'd buy it. :D
Majorafire77 05-05-06, 03:03 PM	Maybe they do have a good idea going? Maybe they're two separate halves of what was a whole person(white and black, yin and yang, that sort), and are adventuring in order to bring them back into wholeness? Doubtful, but I'd buy it. :D The thing is that they don't have a real idea. They're suggesting stuff like "maybe there's a good and evil god getting along" (which wouldn't happen afaik considering this is FR we're talking about). If they were two seperate halves of a whole person, as you proposed, I don't see why they'd want to travel together. One is going around doing completely evil deeds and the other has Vow of this, that, and the other thing. I'd think that they'd hate each other and want to be around each other as little as possible. Hell, I wonder why they'd really want to become one person again.
Tormsskull 05-05-06, 03:11 PM	Ah the infamous wrap up an alignment question with pretty words thread. Anyways, tell them no, give them dunce caps, and make them sit in the corner.
Lord Ian Stark 05-05-06, 03:31 PM	Though, I suppose that if they already are aware, there won't be much conflict. LOL. Right... Majora unless you want to make a post in here about every session you had and why the exalted character should stay exalted because he did X with the blackguard... I suggest you really think about what your characters are asking. If your more interested in the game and RP instead of looking for signs that the character is going to "lose exaltedness" then it can work. Like Silverthumb128 and others have said, make sure they give you a reason for why they travel together. This will also help them in game.
Majorafire77 05-05-06, 03:47 PM	If your more interested in the game and RP instead of looking for signs that the character is going to "lose exaltedness" then it can work. By RP do you mean "roleplay" or "rollplay"? Honestly, our group is usually kind of bad when it comes to roleplaying and I was hoping this could be the one adventure where people at least make an attempt to get in character, fighting, adventure, and solving problems from the character's perspective instead of their own. I simply wonder if they can roleplay properly without their characters going after each other's throats after the first three minutes of the game. I suppose that I'll let them adventure together, but if they don't have a good story and don't roleplay well then I'll just screw 'em over by changing their alignments to neutral.
Gedrin 05-05-06, 03:49 PM	So, basically, when the ship is sinking the Exalted Celestial will be putting orphans in the lifeboat, only to have the Blackguard boot them into the frigid water to make room for the valuable silver fixtures he's looted from the privy. Your game. Your funeral.
celtredleg 05-05-06, 04:01 PM	Not going to work. Either they will play thier alignments, in which case they are trying to kill each other in the first session, or they dont RP at all, and you change thier alignments. If I were you, I would tell them that. Explain that they are going to lose much of the reason to have those classes if they persist. I doubt it will do much good, but at least you will have warned them.
Zombie Carl 05-05-06, 05:22 PM	I would suggest reading "Good Omens" by Pratchett and Gaimen. An angel and a demon are on earth, and both have fairly level heads on their shoulders. They aren't idiots, they know how things are run, and they know they are mortal enemies. The thing is, after so many decades on earth, the only people they have consistently known are each other. Everyone else has died of old age. Add to this that humans aren't supposed to know what they are, the only people they can talk to properly are each other. This leads to quite an endearing friendship between them; the devil will go to do something bad, and the angel will reprimand him and correct his wrong before they leave. If both PC's were of a race that lived for a long time (half celestial exalted, and a half fiend blackguard, for example) then i think it's a storyline you could totally pull off and would be worth it's weight in gold.
Pyritefoolsgold 05-05-06, 06:46 PM	Only way I could see this working would be if the Blackguard was sneaky, and had a ring of undetectable alignment. Of course, it would come to a head eventually, with the exalted character eventually finding out about it, and then they would throw down.
Darth Sephiroth 05-05-06, 07:09 PM	I'd let them do it, watch their actions for how their alignment keeps within the prosciptions. In certain situations good and evil characters would work togather for self preservation. For the most part, even Evil characters don't want some random nutjob to destroy the world.
terrainmonkey 05-05-06, 09:08 PM	i think it would be great, run with it. you have 2 options here, 1, tell them no, and 2, say, sure, but i'm watching you. if you are starting at level 1, the blackguard is just going to be a fighter or paladin type. the celestial is going to be the same. maybe they are brothers of the same mother, but one has a celestial father, and the other has a fiendish father. mom is a succubus. She seduced dad 1 (mr. good, an assimar paladin) and also dad 2 (demon lord from hell) make them have something they have to do together, like find the mother, that way they will have to work together and that's why they are adventuring. so one guy goes blackguard, the other goes exhalted. it doesn't mean they can't work together if they are bonded some how and have a common goal. hell, i've had lawful good folks working with lawful evil and neutral evil before and they all got along with each other because they had to stop chaos from coming into the world. it was a fun campaign, and there was always a debate going on about the nature of law and chaos and evil between the characters. but when push came to shove, they worked together to get the job done. try it, if it gets too much to handle, jsut put the kibosh on them and tell them to run something else.
Adraedan 05-05-06, 11:22 PM	I think you have a great situation for good role-playing here. Look at something like Dragonlance. You have Raistlin working side by side with Sturm, evil right next to good (sure, at that point he wasn't black robe, but he was still riding that evil borderline)...you can have people of conflicting moral standpoints and beliefs working together. You can have evil heroes...look at Spawn, The Crow, Darkman, Kain (from the Legacy of Kain games)...all men using evil methods to achieve good things. Most people are far too quick to pigeonhole alignment as one thing. Take LE, most people are like "the tyrant"...can't it not me an evil man with a code of honor...a man dead set on revenge against (insert BBEG here), he will use any method, any underhanded scheme...torture, murder, blackmail...but he refuses to kill women and children. Or the assassin who will only accept contracts against evil people...assassination is evil, but this evil can be used for good. The murderous warlord who will never kill an unarmed man. Point being is that evil men can do good things, evil men can do heroic things and can share goals with good men. The chance for RP through moral debates and one trying to convert the other. On the other hand, if they can't roleplay their way out of a *******...well, I wouldn't be playing with them myself so i got no advice.
stembolt 05-06-06, 03:28 AM	The ship is going down and you are trying to keep from getting wet. Evil, Exalted and half celestial PCs fall clearly in the realm of only being used for players if you the DM want to use them. So if you have some great idea for an evil PC, go with it. If you don’t, don’t have an evil PC. Forget the fact that they would fight, they should only be used if you (the DM) wants them in the first place.
danielinthewolvesden 05-06-06, 03:48 AM	In general, parties should not be of widely differing alignments. Also, in general, unless the players are mature and the DM is experienced, you should not allow Evils (or CNs that are really Evil). Now, for a group of mature players and an experienced DM, an "all evil" campiagn can be fun as an occassional break from the routine.
FriendlyBiscuit 05-06-06, 04:05 AM	Ugh, they got into this for the stats and abilities... Kill them both in the first session. :D
Lokathor 05-06-06, 04:14 AM	The Exalted character would continually try to convert the Blackguard. If the Blackguard wants to put up with it, fine. It's mostly the blackguard's problem, because the limitations of being Exalted means that the half-celestial can't just pick a fight out of the blue over the issue. The Exalted character has to respect life, respect free will, and put up with just trying to convert the guy. That is, as long as the blackguard doesn't go out and start killing innocents. If he's using all his evil and cruelty to destroy other evil, the above stands. If he starts maiming peasents, the Exalted guy's going to incinerate him with holy retribution.
a_psh 05-07-06, 12:29 AM	I don't think Evil and Exalted will work, given the way Exalted-ness is defined. Good and Evil can coexist if the characters aren't crazy extremists, though.
Carrion_Mobmeat 05-07-06, 08:10 AM	I would suggest reading "Good Omens" by Pratchett and Gaimen. <digression> While Good Omens is an excellent book, I wouldn't use the two protagonists to model Exalted and Vile Dnd characters. They're still, technically, good and evil, but the whole point of them is that after millenia with only humans and each other for company, their 'alignments' are slipping. They've gone native. This works fine for a comedy set in the 'real world', with all the shades of grey that implies, but Exalted and Vile characters in a world with objective, black and white alignment, would be held to higher (and lower ;)) standards of behaviour. </digression>
Nyaz 05-07-06, 08:18 AM	Won't work. If they play those characters properly, they might manage to suffer out a couple of sessions, but long-term there is no way that they will not end up splitting or killing each other. The blackguard is the epitome of evil, not just some evil guy who doesn't care about the lives of others when able to make a profit. He undertakes campaigns to promote evil and is as devoted to evil gods and ideals as the paladin is to good.
Zombie Carl 05-07-06, 10:07 AM	<digression> While Good Omens is an excellent book, I wouldn't use the two protagonists to model Exalted and Vile Dnd characters. They're still, technically, good and evil, but the whole point of them is that after millenia with only humans and each other for company, their 'alignments' are slipping. They've gone native. This works fine for a comedy set in the 'real world', with all the shades of grey that implies, but Exalted and Vile characters in a world with objective, black and white alignment, would be held to higher (and lower ;)) standards of behaviour. </digression> Great post, I agree with most of your points, especially about going native. However, necessity makes for strange bedfellows; if both sides know that eventually the gauntlet will get thrown down and armageddon (aka the huge demonic plan of the half-fiend's parent) is due to go down on a certain date, there is no need for them to be actively fighting each other. Either one might die, and that would leave the survivor to go around converting souls for their team. It would make more sense for one character to shadow the other, to ensure that any damage they did to the soul-total gets rectified. Also; there is nothing more delicious than a tale about a fallen hero or a edeemed villain. The celestial will be spending their time trying to convert the half-fiend, the fiend trying to corrupt the celestial. I don't recall reading anything that suggests guilt by association in the alignment rules either. Also, it would make for a great little story.
kaintheassasin 05-07-06, 03:38 PM	set each player aside and tell them that if they can cause the death of the other with out having the party figure what they are doing out that they will get the favor of their god or something of the sort and this way one or both players with try to undermind or hurt the other . they might even come up with some interesting situations
AvaronGansdell 05-07-06, 05:16 PM	if you where running a truly truly epic campagin where the fate of not only the world but all existance was threatned then yes you might find good and evil uniteing against oblivion but in a standard game its just not going to work someone is going to slip and loose alingment. mabye hold the game off for a week or two till you get PHB 2 there is a knight class in there that might suit the blackguard player more so you could get a exalted character and say a LN Knight type.