An Idea For All You DMs With PC "Tank" Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Idea For All You DMs With PC "Tank" Problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neo_Leviathan
03-02-05, 06:21 AM I've seen quite a few people have problems with Tanks, high lvl Barbs/Fighers/Paladins etc etc that tear up everything.

A quick idea for you (great if the target doesn't yet have spell resistance).

Say the PCs are 12th level

They're wandering through a complex/temple/ruins/town/wherever you want

They hear a voice yell "Warmages, target the big one, Ready... FIRE!!"

An illusionary wall dissapears and the PCs see a two ranks of 7 Warmages, lead by another Warmage. Each warmage has 16 Int.
Each Warmage fires a Magic Missile, for 1d4 + 4 damage.

That makes 15d4 + 60 damage to the Tank with one volley, and they've got more in them (assuming the PC party mage doesn't fireball them or something).

Plenty of tweaking possible, but at the very least it'll give your Tank a wake-up call.
Black Kitten
03-02-05, 07:03 AM Ehm... I don't need mages to tear up my tank. I can quite easily make an anti-build to any tank you present to me. And if you want to make a group of mages to beat up a highlevel fighter, I'd simply take to tactics. If the fighter cannot move a lot, make unarmoured Barbarian/Wizards. The key is that they do need to be able to get away from the tank in question and be protected against his/her arrows.

Added to that, why would you want to kill the tank? Killing characters just for killing the character isn't fun. Doesn't make for happy players, doesn't make for a happy game and in the end you only *sensored* yourself.
Neo_Leviathan
03-02-05, 07:07 AM Never said anything about killing the tank, but a lot of high level characters believe that a group of low levels are no threat to them, you could easily have the group of mages as the 'special guard' for the bbeg or such
was_fired
03-02-05, 07:28 AM Yes, but if that is the case then why arn't they targeting the wizard? He clearly presents a greater threat. Normally people go after the fighter since he gets in the way and in the process serve as a meatshield. Ask yourself if you would be as keen on this setup in order to take down you party's wizard (see area damage), then cleric (see healing), rogue (see yep) and have the BBEG simply fight the fighter and act as a meatshield to his spellcasting army.
Callista
03-02-05, 08:06 AM A BBEG wouldn't act as a meat shield... see that "E" in BBEG? Right. Chances are, unless he's something twisted from the BOVD, he doesn't like taking wounds for his team...
ehrin
03-02-05, 10:59 AM how about a long long series of glyphs of warding, each one set to go off on different triggers.

Until my party finally got wise to the trick, and started looking for them, a series of these glyphs kept them hammered for ages.

Set them to explode when:
anyone under 4 feet goes past
anything encased in metal goes past
anything taller than 6 feet goes past
first humanoid goes past withouth the countersign
fourth humanoid that goes past without the countersign

etc....
Arquinsiel
03-02-05, 11:08 AM I find arcane archers with sufficient fireballs do the job for me whenever I want to kill things. Then again, I did do that when I took a fully elven archer army in a game against one of my mates using our bodged mass combat rules-set (1000 levels with the appropriate gold/level to hire your army, monsters use ECL).
Bulabase
03-02-05, 11:35 AM If you want to mess with a tank (and the rest of the party too) using material from Complete Arcane, just have a mindbender dominate the tank and use him against the rest of the party. Unless someone has Break Enchantment available, the party is in for a pretty rough time. Tanks usually have low will saves, so use that against them.
RecklessFable
03-02-05, 01:41 PM Ray of Enfeeblement.

A DM in a campaign I'm in started blasting away with (apparently maximized) rays of enfeeblement. Ranged touch, so the tank's armor didn't help. The tank in heavy armor was instantly over-encumbered and ended up prone doing 5' crawls per round.
olshanski_home
03-02-05, 02:44 PM Ray of Enfeeblement.

A DM in a campaign I'm in started blasting away with (apparently maximized) rays of enfeeblement. Ranged touch, so the tank's armor didn't help. The tank in heavy armor was instantly over-encumbered and ended up prone doing 5' crawls per round.

Ray of enfeeblement doesn't stack with itself.
You can hit a guy once, and only once, and that's all the strength you will penalize using this spell.
weasel fierce
03-02-05, 02:45 PM If big combat guys are a problem, either change the encounters so stealth, talk or problem solving is needed, or just chuck in a few monsters that they will be very hard pressed to beat, without suffering heavy damage, or death

Theres no law that every encounter has to be easy, without thge players thinking it through
On_the_wings_of_TPK
03-02-05, 03:26 PM I fail to see why everyone is so rapped in the tank. "Oh-No it has hit pionts and swings a sword for stupid lots." Whatever, thats an easy fix, yea you can use magic. Hold person and magic missile work, but mind so does a bow. Is my PHB the only one that has the statistics for the bow or cross bow? "Oh you swing 2d6+ lots in melee, ok I'll swing my d8+4 form 165ft away, or wait maybe I will use my head for something other then a but plug today and get higher ground. Like say while you are down there scouting the ruins. I'll shoot at you from this balcany. Or maybe I'll just hide after every shot."

I also hear that spiked chains are effective against against the tanks as well.

Oh- and while we are on the topic of lower level mages frying things, yaa know it only cost 1, 875 to equip a sorcer with 1 wand of magic missile first caster level and three scrolls of fire ball. Have fun with that.
Wizard
03-02-05, 03:39 PM "Hiding after every shot" isn't really a viable strategy.

But regardless...a GREAT way to take down tanks is two rays of exhaustion. Usually takes 'em down to moving 15 ft/round as a double move. Archer bait.
Khelvaster
03-02-05, 04:09 PM Try combating the tank with a large spiked chain fighter using improved trip and improved disarm :devil:
Astinex
03-02-05, 04:42 PM Tank issues go away with one word.

Grapple

No fancy magic/monster combos.

Have a Ogre, Orc, or your favorite NPC just tie up the tank and let the numerous other monsters your bound to have beat him down. Overbear the tank with multiple Orcs etc.

I truely stomped my PC's with a clan of Kobalds and grapple. The PC's had to retreat and almost lost 2 members of the party. Of course they regrouped, rethought their tactics and wiped out the Kobalds, but the initial encounter certainly dinged their confidence.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neo_Leviathan 03-02-05, 06:21 AM	I've seen quite a few people have problems with Tanks, high lvl Barbs/Fighers/Paladins etc etc that tear up everything. A quick idea for you (great if the target doesn't yet have spell resistance). Say the PCs are 12th level They're wandering through a complex/temple/ruins/town/wherever you want They hear a voice yell "Warmages, target the big one, Ready... FIRE!!" An illusionary wall dissapears and the PCs see a two ranks of 7 Warmages, lead by another Warmage. Each warmage has 16 Int. Each Warmage fires a Magic Missile, for 1d4 + 4 damage. That makes 15d4 + 60 damage to the Tank with one volley, and they've got more in them (assuming the PC party mage doesn't fireball them or something). Plenty of tweaking possible, but at the very least it'll give your Tank a wake-up call.
Black Kitten 03-02-05, 07:03 AM	Ehm... I don't need mages to tear up my tank. I can quite easily make an anti-build to any tank you present to me. And if you want to make a group of mages to beat up a highlevel fighter, I'd simply take to tactics. If the fighter cannot move a lot, make unarmoured Barbarian/Wizards. The key is that they do need to be able to get away from the tank in question and be protected against his/her arrows. Added to that, why would you want to kill the tank? Killing characters just for killing the character isn't fun. Doesn't make for happy players, doesn't make for a happy game and in the end you only sensored yourself.
Neo_Leviathan 03-02-05, 07:07 AM	Never said anything about killing the tank, but a lot of high level characters believe that a group of low levels are no threat to them, you could easily have the group of mages as the 'special guard' for the bbeg or such
was_fired 03-02-05, 07:28 AM	Yes, but if that is the case then why arn't they targeting the wizard? He clearly presents a greater threat. Normally people go after the fighter since he gets in the way and in the process serve as a meatshield. Ask yourself if you would be as keen on this setup in order to take down you party's wizard (see area damage), then cleric (see healing), rogue (see yep) and have the BBEG simply fight the fighter and act as a meatshield to his spellcasting army.
Callista 03-02-05, 08:06 AM	A BBEG wouldn't act as a meat shield... see that "E" in BBEG? Right. Chances are, unless he's something twisted from the BOVD, he doesn't like taking wounds for his team...
ehrin 03-02-05, 10:59 AM	how about a long long series of glyphs of warding, each one set to go off on different triggers. Until my party finally got wise to the trick, and started looking for them, a series of these glyphs kept them hammered for ages. Set them to explode when: anyone under 4 feet goes past anything encased in metal goes past anything taller than 6 feet goes past first humanoid goes past withouth the countersign fourth humanoid that goes past without the countersign etc....
Arquinsiel 03-02-05, 11:08 AM	I find arcane archers with sufficient fireballs do the job for me whenever I want to kill things. Then again, I did do that when I took a fully elven archer army in a game against one of my mates using our bodged mass combat rules-set (1000 levels with the appropriate gold/level to hire your army, monsters use ECL).
Bulabase 03-02-05, 11:35 AM	If you want to mess with a tank (and the rest of the party too) using material from Complete Arcane, just have a mindbender dominate the tank and use him against the rest of the party. Unless someone has Break Enchantment available, the party is in for a pretty rough time. Tanks usually have low will saves, so use that against them.
RecklessFable 03-02-05, 01:41 PM	Ray of Enfeeblement. A DM in a campaign I'm in started blasting away with (apparently maximized) rays of enfeeblement. Ranged touch, so the tank's armor didn't help. The tank in heavy armor was instantly over-encumbered and ended up prone doing 5' crawls per round.
olshanski_home 03-02-05, 02:44 PM	Ray of Enfeeblement. A DM in a campaign I'm in started blasting away with (apparently maximized) rays of enfeeblement. Ranged touch, so the tank's armor didn't help. The tank in heavy armor was instantly over-encumbered and ended up prone doing 5' crawls per round. Ray of enfeeblement doesn't stack with itself. You can hit a guy once, and only once, and that's all the strength you will penalize using this spell.
weasel fierce 03-02-05, 02:45 PM	If big combat guys are a problem, either change the encounters so stealth, talk or problem solving is needed, or just chuck in a few monsters that they will be very hard pressed to beat, without suffering heavy damage, or death Theres no law that every encounter has to be easy, without thge players thinking it through
On_the_wings_of_TPK 03-02-05, 03:26 PM	I fail to see why everyone is so rapped in the tank. "Oh-No it has hit pionts and swings a sword for stupid lots." Whatever, thats an easy fix, yea you can use magic. Hold person and magic missile work, but mind so does a bow. Is my PHB the only one that has the statistics for the bow or cross bow? "Oh you swing 2d6+ lots in melee, ok I'll swing my d8+4 form 165ft away, or wait maybe I will use my head for something other then a but plug today and get higher ground. Like say while you are down there scouting the ruins. I'll shoot at you from this balcany. Or maybe I'll just hide after every shot." I also hear that spiked chains are effective against against the tanks as well. Oh- and while we are on the topic of lower level mages frying things, yaa know it only cost 1, 875 to equip a sorcer with 1 wand of magic missile first caster level and three scrolls of fire ball. Have fun with that.
Wizard 03-02-05, 03:39 PM	"Hiding after every shot" isn't really a viable strategy. But regardless...a GREAT way to take down tanks is two rays of exhaustion. Usually takes 'em down to moving 15 ft/round as a double move. Archer bait.
Khelvaster 03-02-05, 04:09 PM	Try combating the tank with a large spiked chain fighter using improved trip and improved disarm :devil:
Astinex 03-02-05, 04:42 PM	Tank issues go away with one word. Grapple No fancy magic/monster combos. Have a Ogre, Orc, or your favorite NPC just tie up the tank and let the numerous other monsters your bound to have beat him down. Overbear the tank with multiple Orcs etc. I truely stomped my PC's with a clan of Kobalds and grapple. The PC's had to retreat and almost lost 2 members of the party. Of course they regrouped, rethought their tactics and wiped out the Kobalds, but the initial encounter certainly dinged their confidence.