An Idea occured to me... [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Idea occured to me... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DrkAnbs
10-09-06, 05:06 PM I wanna know your opinions or if you have done this before. Sorta a good idea, bad idea...

Every level, every class prestige or not, gain a feat, and use the warrior feat table. Along with slightly increasing spells per day, and spells per level..etc. Overpowered? Plausible? With what creatures one could pit against them (demons namely), what do you think?
lears_fool
10-09-06, 05:09 PM Every level, every class prestige or not, gain a feat, and use the warrior feat table. Along with slightly increasing spells per day, and spells per level..etc. Overpowered? Plausible? With what creatures one could pit against them (demons namely), what do you think?

Well, the big problem is that it rewards some classes more than others. A Sorc's not going to get much out of the extra feats, while you're likely to end up with multiple trip/sunder/disarm monkeys :)
AlphaSquirell
10-09-06, 05:12 PM At first, this is great.

But eventaully, everyone has improved initative, all 3 +2 Save feats, and can disarm/sunder/trip like crazy.

A bonus feat every other level is PLENTY. (1st, then 3rd, then 5th, 7th, 9th, etc)
DrkAnbs
10-09-06, 05:16 PM So mayhap just give them the warrior feat table? Or just somehow increase the feat tables of the other classes to make it more..fun as it were. I mean I only came up with this cause I have seen so many new feats coming out, not just PHB anymore. But in the "complete" books, I recently found a netbook of feats that has new feats in it, so like I said it was only an idea..with the new info..what say you?
icnivad
10-09-06, 05:22 PM I agree that it unbalances the classes. a fighter, who is likely to run out of feats anyway, still runs out of feats, or takes worthless ones. casters generally don't get much advantage out of feats. Barbarians, Monks, and Rogues suddenly become awesome with all their abilities, plus feats.

If you'd like to play a high powered game, I'd say let the players start at a higher level, like 15, and give them the top three of 5d6 for each stat.

Making players overpowered is fine, because the bad guys can be adjusted to be more powerful, too. But unbalancing characters will ruin the game in the long run.
lears_fool
10-09-06, 05:24 PM Making players overpowered is fine, because the bad guys can be adjusted to be more powerful, too. But unbalancing characters will ruin the game in the long run.

Succinctly put. The hardest thing when boosting characters is making sure they ALL get similar boosts. If you're going to give extra feats I'd advise not giving too many and giving them freedom to take them from anywhere rather than just the warrior table.
DrkAnbs
10-09-06, 05:38 PM Sorry I didnt clarify, I ment the way the warriror feats are given, not the table itself. they get one every other level, 2 at first, 1 at 2nd, 4th, 6th, on and on it goes..thats what I ment. My bad, so essentially thats what I was talking about having so many feats to choose from.
CryoSilver
10-09-06, 05:45 PM The problem with feats is that at low levels, they're really great, but as you go up in level, the power of feats tends to be marginalized by such things as martial stances, magical items and high level spells.

That is the problem the fighter has, and by giving every class the only thing the fighter has and giving the fighter more of it, you'd only be making the problem worse.

In any case, here is how I see it working out, roughly: 1 feat = 10k gp.

Now, at level 20, that's like having 110k in items, but they're all only worth 10k (probably less: Lightning Reflexes is only worth 2,000 gp). Sound useful, or sound like just more junk to keep track of?
DrkAnbs
10-09-06, 05:50 PM Buying the feats would essentially be similar to Elder Scrolls though, wouldnt it? You know everything you just have to train it with cash. lol But it is a thought, thanks for all the ideas and opinions so far.
lears_fool
10-09-06, 05:53 PM Cry did make a good point about the whole fighter-feat thing.

Hmm. . this isn't that well thought out. . but what if instead you simply give people a bonus feat whenever they'd have gotten a feat.

That way the fighter gets extra-rewarded (as do the wizard and psion if people don't prestige out) but everyone gets good perks?

It still might be unbalancing, but it's an interesting possibility
DrkAnbs
10-09-06, 05:56 PM As in, when they reach a level that gives a feat..be it level 3, 5..on and on..they get 2 instead of one..?
CryoSilver
10-09-06, 05:58 PM There is a well thought out article about this in Regdar's Repository here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=682555) where I make the same point as above: that in the case of scaling power in D&D 1+1<2.

A level 9 spell is more powerful than 9 first level spells, and likewise, a level 20 class ability is far more powerful than many level 1 abilities or feats.
lears_fool
10-09-06, 06:00 PM As in, when they reach a level that gives a feat..be it level 3, 5..on and on..they get 2 instead of one..?

Yup, that's what I was thinking, and when a fighter or mage gets a bonus feat, they get another of the same type.

I also agree with Cryo's observation that over time the feats are less impressive. Though at this point I'm focusing not on power but on balance. If you want to give your players lots of feats, the only crucial part is balancing within the party.
allenchan
10-09-06, 06:01 PM A level 9 spell is more powerful than 9 first level spells, and likewise, a level 20 class ability is far more powerful than many level 1 abilities or feats.

Ecept for a fighter's level 20 class ability, which is another feat, all of roughly the same strength :D

In any cause, I use efats every odd level, and an ability point every even level, with less treasure. I believe it was recommended by one of the designers as the "its about you, not your loot" house rule.
DrkAnbs
10-09-06, 06:04 PM Im not the only one to think of this, and I didnt think I was, just there is no real search function in these forums so I just blurted my idea out to you all. Thank you for the find it helps in ways you wouldnt believe. Anything out there about ability points? Care to esplain more of your ability point idea allenchan? If you wish of course.
On_the_wings_of_TPK
10-09-06, 06:20 PM I've DMed parties were I alolowed them to take feats every odd level. Over the course of 20 levels it only gives them an extra 3 feats anyways, so it isn't too over powered.

I wouldn's messure the power of this with the power of the fighter class, becuase they tend to peter out at about 2nd-4th level anyways. After 6th level everything is stronger then the fighter class, their kinda the red haired step child of D&D. What you'd want to to do is look at what the other classes are going to do with extra feats.

Monks, probally aren't going to notice to much at all. there class already grants them the fun stuff like trip/stunning fist. You may some funky stuff stuff with things like prone attack, and feats that are normally not powerful enough to take, but now that have extra feats, why not? Their monk abilities will still be stronger, and used a lot more.

The paladin will love this, as he now augment his diven feats, with extra turning, and other interesting martial combos. Same goes for the ranger, but mostly with TWF trees, and/or ranged disarm/pin shinnanagins.

The caster will benefit the most from this, as thoughs three feats will translate into three extra meta magic feats, or extra crafting feats. Thoughs tend to be strong even up to level 20. Maximised delay blast fire ball is always fun, and who doesn't like quickened heal?

All in all though, you porbally won't notice. The thing you want to watch out for is poeple galifying for PrCs earilier. Maybe also house rule that you can't take a PrC untill 5th level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrkAnbs 10-09-06, 05:06 PM	I wanna know your opinions or if you have done this before. Sorta a good idea, bad idea... Every level, every class prestige or not, gain a feat, and use the warrior feat table. Along with slightly increasing spells per day, and spells per level..etc. Overpowered? Plausible? With what creatures one could pit against them (demons namely), what do you think?
lears_fool 10-09-06, 05:09 PM	Every level, every class prestige or not, gain a feat, and use the warrior feat table. Along with slightly increasing spells per day, and spells per level..etc. Overpowered? Plausible? With what creatures one could pit against them (demons namely), what do you think? Well, the big problem is that it rewards some classes more than others. A Sorc's not going to get much out of the extra feats, while you're likely to end up with multiple trip/sunder/disarm monkeys :)
AlphaSquirell 10-09-06, 05:12 PM	At first, this is great. But eventaully, everyone has improved initative, all 3 +2 Save feats, and can disarm/sunder/trip like crazy. A bonus feat every other level is PLENTY. (1st, then 3rd, then 5th, 7th, 9th, etc)
DrkAnbs 10-09-06, 05:16 PM	So mayhap just give them the warrior feat table? Or just somehow increase the feat tables of the other classes to make it more..fun as it were. I mean I only came up with this cause I have seen so many new feats coming out, not just PHB anymore. But in the "complete" books, I recently found a netbook of feats that has new feats in it, so like I said it was only an idea..with the new info..what say you?
icnivad 10-09-06, 05:22 PM	I agree that it unbalances the classes. a fighter, who is likely to run out of feats anyway, still runs out of feats, or takes worthless ones. casters generally don't get much advantage out of feats. Barbarians, Monks, and Rogues suddenly become awesome with all their abilities, plus feats. If you'd like to play a high powered game, I'd say let the players start at a higher level, like 15, and give them the top three of 5d6 for each stat. Making players overpowered is fine, because the bad guys can be adjusted to be more powerful, too. But unbalancing characters will ruin the game in the long run.
lears_fool 10-09-06, 05:24 PM	Making players overpowered is fine, because the bad guys can be adjusted to be more powerful, too. But unbalancing characters will ruin the game in the long run. Succinctly put. The hardest thing when boosting characters is making sure they ALL get similar boosts. If you're going to give extra feats I'd advise not giving too many and giving them freedom to take them from anywhere rather than just the warrior table.
DrkAnbs 10-09-06, 05:38 PM	Sorry I didnt clarify, I ment the way the warriror feats are given, not the table itself. they get one every other level, 2 at first, 1 at 2nd, 4th, 6th, on and on it goes..thats what I ment. My bad, so essentially thats what I was talking about having so many feats to choose from.
CryoSilver 10-09-06, 05:45 PM	The problem with feats is that at low levels, they're really great, but as you go up in level, the power of feats tends to be marginalized by such things as martial stances, magical items and high level spells. That is the problem the fighter has, and by giving every class the only thing the fighter has and giving the fighter more of it, you'd only be making the problem worse. In any case, here is how I see it working out, roughly: 1 feat = 10k gp. Now, at level 20, that's like having 110k in items, but they're all only worth 10k (probably less: Lightning Reflexes is only worth 2,000 gp). Sound useful, or sound like just more junk to keep track of?
DrkAnbs 10-09-06, 05:50 PM	Buying the feats would essentially be similar to Elder Scrolls though, wouldnt it? You know everything you just have to train it with cash. lol But it is a thought, thanks for all the ideas and opinions so far.
lears_fool 10-09-06, 05:53 PM	Cry did make a good point about the whole fighter-feat thing. Hmm. . this isn't that well thought out. . but what if instead you simply give people a bonus feat whenever they'd have gotten a feat. That way the fighter gets extra-rewarded (as do the wizard and psion if people don't prestige out) but everyone gets good perks? It still might be unbalancing, but it's an interesting possibility
DrkAnbs 10-09-06, 05:56 PM	As in, when they reach a level that gives a feat..be it level 3, 5..on and on..they get 2 instead of one..?
CryoSilver 10-09-06, 05:58 PM	There is a well thought out article about this in Regdar's Repository here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=682555) where I make the same point as above: that in the case of scaling power in D&D 1+1<2. A level 9 spell is more powerful than 9 first level spells, and likewise, a level 20 class ability is far more powerful than many level 1 abilities or feats.
lears_fool 10-09-06, 06:00 PM	As in, when they reach a level that gives a feat..be it level 3, 5..on and on..they get 2 instead of one..? Yup, that's what I was thinking, and when a fighter or mage gets a bonus feat, they get another of the same type. I also agree with Cryo's observation that over time the feats are less impressive. Though at this point I'm focusing not on power but on balance. If you want to give your players lots of feats, the only crucial part is balancing within the party.
allenchan 10-09-06, 06:01 PM	A level 9 spell is more powerful than 9 first level spells, and likewise, a level 20 class ability is far more powerful than many level 1 abilities or feats. Ecept for a fighter's level 20 class ability, which is another feat, all of roughly the same strength :D In any cause, I use efats every odd level, and an ability point every even level, with less treasure. I believe it was recommended by one of the designers as the "its about you, not your loot" house rule.
DrkAnbs 10-09-06, 06:04 PM	Im not the only one to think of this, and I didnt think I was, just there is no real search function in these forums so I just blurted my idea out to you all. Thank you for the find it helps in ways you wouldnt believe. Anything out there about ability points? Care to esplain more of your ability point idea allenchan? If you wish of course.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-09-06, 06:20 PM	I've DMed parties were I alolowed them to take feats every odd level. Over the course of 20 levels it only gives them an extra 3 feats anyways, so it isn't too over powered. I wouldn's messure the power of this with the power of the fighter class, becuase they tend to peter out at about 2nd-4th level anyways. After 6th level everything is stronger then the fighter class, their kinda the red haired step child of D&D. What you'd want to to do is look at what the other classes are going to do with extra feats. Monks, probally aren't going to notice to much at all. there class already grants them the fun stuff like trip/stunning fist. You may some funky stuff stuff with things like prone attack, and feats that are normally not powerful enough to take, but now that have extra feats, why not? Their monk abilities will still be stronger, and used a lot more. The paladin will love this, as he now augment his diven feats, with extra turning, and other interesting martial combos. Same goes for the ranger, but mostly with TWF trees, and/or ranged disarm/pin shinnanagins. The caster will benefit the most from this, as thoughs three feats will translate into three extra meta magic feats, or extra crafting feats. Thoughs tend to be strong even up to level 20. Maximised delay blast fire ball is always fun, and who doesn't like quickened heal? All in all though, you porbally won't notice. The thing you want to watch out for is poeple galifying for PrCs earilier. Maybe also house rule that you can't take a PrC untill 5th level.