Post/Author/DateTime	Post
icedcrow 02-23-06, 09:21 AM	I apologize if this has been done up ad naseum but I have a little issue that I need some advice/help/discussion on. I have played D&D since 1st edition and I have to say first off that I like the direction 3rd ed goes in. That being said... I hate CR. I hate how XP are handled. It seems that the party goes up in level every week for one. I know I can slow down their leveling process by reducing XP awards and that's fine, but here's the thing... If I am running a 3rd level party of four 3rd level characters and I throw an ogre at them (CR 3)... they can 95% of the time destroy that ogre with little to no effort. To challenge them I have to throw encounter levels that are one or two levels higher then them. And by challenge I mean make them sweat a bit. The problem with that is the above mentioned... they get so many XPs that they just level up so quick. I find that a CR equal to the party level is not really much of a challenge at all. Do any of you find this to be the case as well and if so, how do you deal with it?
Azezel 02-23-06, 09:44 AM	A common misconception about CR's is that that a party of four should be challenged by an encounter of equal CR. Not so - the CR system is designed so that a party of four should use approximately 1/4 of their expendable resources (HP, spells, items etc) per encounter. In other words, a party is chalenged if they face four comparable CR encounters in one day (or in one time applicable unit). If you only have a single encounter between before your party recovers spells and hp then the party will not have been truely chalenged and you my reduce xp as appropriate. If you give your party four equal CR encounters, it is assumed they earn less xp for encounter 1 and more for encounter 4. but since you only dish out xp at the end of the session, it evens out. If you don't want to give your party their regulation four enconters per time-unit then by all means reduce their xp - like everything else, the flow of xp is yours to control.
Chobemaster 02-23-06, 09:52 AM	Also worth mentioning is that CR assumes core rules, normal PC ability generation, and "normal" character wealth. If you change these factors, then yes, encounters need to be rebalanced. Which would have been true in any edition or in any system. If you find 13 encounters per level to be too fast (I tend to) then decide how many more you want per level, and adjust accordingly. (i.e., if you want 26 encounters, award half xp from the table.) The move to a sliding scale of XP for a given creature depending on the level of the PC's MUST be done since they changed the progression of XP required for each level, which was a necessary change for the "xp spend" for magic item creation and certain related rules.
icedcrow 02-23-06, 10:19 AM	Thanks for the tip guys. I'm going with 75% of experience currently. I guess in my mind... a CR should be a challenge for a party of an appropriate level. I do recall the DMG talking about how a CR represents something the party should always overcome but use 1/4 of their resources, and I guess I just find that wrong. That's just my opinion mind you... To me a CR 3 should challenge a 3rd level party and present a real danger. Maybe more on the lines of the party should overcome it 60% of the time. That being the case, an ogre to me would only be a CR 2. I think if we were to bump down the CRs by 1 or 2 in a lot of cases that those would fit more with that style above. For now I'll go ahead and just cut 25% of the xp points and see how that goes.
Arlechino 02-23-06, 10:37 AM	If it helps you to understand how CRs are set- remember how CRs are set for NPCs with PC levels. A fighter 3 is a CR 3 encounter. Is that lone fighter going to challenge a party of 4? No way. But it WILL drain their ressources. You need to reprogram your brain to understand what the designers intended CR to mean. If you want to challenge your party, go CR+2 (note that an enounter with 2 fighters of party level is CR+2). If you want to have a 50% chance of a TPK, go with CR+4 (Not recommended)
icedcrow 02-23-06, 10:57 AM	I understand how to challenge the party, but that led to the second problem I was having. If I want to challenge my party they go up in levels at breakneck speed. There is no way a 3rd level fighter challenges 4 3rd level characters, I know this. An equal challenge is 4 3rd level NPCs vs 4 3rd level PCs decked out similarly. The experience for defeating said encounter is also astronomical. That's where my real issue lies.
Arlechino 02-23-06, 11:12 AM	I understand how to challenge the party, but that led to the second problem I was having. If I want to challenge my party they go up in levels at breakneck speed. There is no way a 3rd level fighter challenges 4 3rd level characters, I know this. An equal challenge is 4 3rd level NPCs vs 4 3rd level PCs decked out similarly. The experience for defeating said encounter is also astronomical. That's where my real issue lies. Yes, but considering there's no particular reason to expect the party to be the ones who walk away from the fight, I think thta's reasonable. The game is set up to encourage encounter with many, weaker creatures over a few stronger ones. Part of the reason is to help characters feel heroic, but part of it is also because more, weaker creatures has less randomness than a single, strong creature. Less randomness is better for PCs. If, when deciding on a EL 5 encounter, you face the party with 4 CR 1 creatures instead of 1 CR 5 creature, you will both reduce randomness and give out less XP. Don't forget that XP is awarded on a per-creature basis in 3.5, not for the encounter.
Cantankerous 02-23-06, 11:35 AM	Hi Icedcrow, It seems that the party goes up in level every week for one. I know I can slow down their leveling process by reducing XP awards and that's fine, but here's the thing... Wha? I think there may be some problems in how you're doing this. Now sure, my group are RPers, not hack and slashers, but even with that acounted it shouldn't be jumping up that bloody fast. If I am running a 3rd level party of four 3rd level characters and I throw an ogre at them (CR 3)... they can 95% of the time destroy that ogre with little to no effort. And here's the first problem. Either the PCs aren't the EL you think they are, or you're running your monsters stone dumb. I've got a good, strong tactical group and I can make them KNOW they've been in a fight with a CR equal to the group EL at any time. In fact it seems to often go the other way. Now yeah, SOMETIMES they'll beat the dog snot out of an encounter two or three CR up from them if they've got the luck, but likewise I've taken my strong tactical bunch all but apart at the seams with an encounter a CR or two down from them more than once. One thing to keep in mind is that the CR equal to the group EL isn't supposed to make the party fight for their lives. At an equal CR to the EL it supposed to make them expend about 1/4 of their daily resources. To challenge them I have to throw encounter levels that are one or two levels higher then them. And by challenge I mean make them sweat a bit. Again, I doubt the party is the EL you think they are. I can usually make mine sweat with an encounter a CR down from them if luck is on the monsters side. Are the PCs built off the standard 25 point buy or the equivalent (4d6 six times, drop the worst and arrange as desired)? Are you keeping to the wealth per level ideal? Do you allow single items worth more than half that amount into party hands? Do they have any additional possibilities, for Feats and such, that the NPCs and monsters generally don't get (as in they are just taken straight from the MM while the PCs are customized from spaltbooks)? Do you use alot of splatbooks, or just Core? *snip* Do any of you find this to be the case as well and if so, how do you deal with it? We're almost one hundred and eighty sessions into our present campaign now (we often play twice a week, sometimes three times a week during summer holidays (my wifes a Physics and math teacher) from the last almost two years and the players are 23rd level..and now it's REALLY taking a bit between level ups, about ten or so sessions each. Even now, with what's officially Epic levels going on, the CR table is holding up spectacularly well; but I'm really harsh about adhering to a real EL for the characters and not letting it slip too far out of hand. Would you mind posting one of their characters so we can see what you're dealing with? Isshia
Zherog 02-23-06, 11:41 AM	Z's Pet Peeve Alert! (note that an enounter with 2 fighters of party level is CR+2). That's incorrect. The Encounter Level (EL) would indeed be CR+2; the CR of each individual, though, remains unchanged. For example, 2 4th level fighters have an EL of 6. However, when it comes to giving out XP, though, you look up the amount for CR 4 and award it twice. It's minor, but most pet peeves are. ;) edit: Cantakerous posted in the time between when I hit the quote button and submit button (I got called away from my desk ;) ). I just want to add that I agree with his points. I ever so rarely run with a monster directly out of the books. For one, I allow my PCs to use a different stat generation than the "standard" one, so I allow the monsters to have those same stats. This means recomputing attacks, saves, damage, DCs of abilities, skills, etc. Since I'm doing all this anyway, I take the time to check the skills and feats assigned, and change them where I see fit. That's just one example of how the group's actual EL can differ significantly from what you think it might be. I'd wager my group's effective level is probably about two higher if I were to run things right out of the book.
Pellanor 02-23-06, 11:48 AM	Don't forget to also reduce the treasure the PCs gain by the same amount as you reduce the EXP, otherwise you'll end up with characters who have more wealth then they're supposed to. note: the following numbers are made up. Chekc the DMG for what they should be. Let's asume that in every encounter you gain treasure equal to the CR * 100, so CR 1 is 100, CR2 is 200, CR 12 is 1200. Since it takes 13.33 encounters to level up, that means that when you hit level 2 you would have 1333 gp. At level 3, 3999 (1333 + 2666), etc... If you reduce EXP by 25%, then it sudenly takes 17.77 encounters to level up. That means that when you hit level 2 you have 1777 gp, at level 3 5331 gp, etc... That's effectivley 33% more gp per level than they're supposed to have. Now because they have that much more wealth, they'll go through encounters faster and easier, which means you'll send harder stuff against them, which means they'll level up faster, which means you'll cut exp again, which means they'l end up with even more wealth, which means they'll go through encounters faster and easier, which means you'll send harder stuff against them, which means eventually you'll have your 5th level characters, armed with holy avengers, and taking out CR 10 encounters and getting only 5 exp from each. note: this is a hyperbole... Hope that helps.
icedcrow 02-23-06, 11:51 AM	The party consists of currently: Fighter level 4 Dwarf cleric level 4 Elf rogue level 3 Halfling Rogue level 3 The only magic items they have had so far are potions. I go straight off the treasure tables, and no magic items have been generated yet. They get 28 points to distribute instead of 25. Their stat lines are not the problem. Mind you the fighter and dwarf JUST turned level 4. Last week they were all level 3 (the halfling missed the first session, the elf missed the last session that's why they are now level 3 instead of 4 with the fighter and cleric) I understand what CR represents, I guess I just dont' agree with it. I don't like to kill parties, quite the contrary, I just don't like them to feel that they will always win their encounters by straight up bludgeoning. Undead right now are not effective because the cleric just turns them and they cower in a corner while the fighter destroys them all. They encountered 17 skeletons last week (CR 1/3 each) and the fighter whirled in and killed about 4 in two turns (kill one, cleave... next round kill one, cleave). The skeletons I played as undead without any real brain, they ganged up on the fighter and tried to get in on the cleric and the rogues hiding in the hallway. The fighter's AC is 21 so the skeletons were having a hard time really hitting (needing 18s, the fighter backs up to a wall so nothing can get on either side of him except maybe a flank or two if they are lucky) The cleric then proceeded to turn the remaining 12 or 13. Unless I'm reading the rules wrong, the skeletons proceeded to flee to the corner of the room, where the fighter was able to attack them without worrying about them striking back. The cleric kept his distance to not break the turn. All in all 17 skeletons did 5 points of damage to the fighter and nothing else. I did attempt to attack the other party members, but they position themselves good so the rogues don't get into combat unless they want (excellent tactics on their part) and the cleric would get any stragglers. That was worth some serious XP. ======================================== ================ An example encounter next: An ogre (CR 3) The party (again all 3rd level) is attacked by a charging ogre. The ogre does put a hurting on the fighter by dropping him to about 35% hit points, but is then dispatched. That's where I disagree with ogres being CR 3... but again it's my view on what a challenge should be I guess. That was an easy XP gain. ======================================== ================ Monumental encounter of the night: The PCs fight a level 3 fighter, a level 2 fighter, and a level 3 barbarian. This one came down to the bitter end and we were all excited about it. The NPCs fought like intelligent warriors, and the barbarian berserking with a double headed battle axe was putting the hurting on the party. I had no problems with this encounter as it was designed to be a 50/50 shot. The party did outnumber the NPCs so had an edge, and the NPCs were either equal to or lower in level. So my deal isn't really with NPCs, more that the monsters seem a bit.. well... weak. I see maybe 2 ogres being a CR 3. That would challenge the party. But then they are worth 1800 xp. I find if I trim the xp awards a bit that it is more reasonable.
Epicweaver 02-23-06, 12:09 PM	I ever so rarely run with a monster directly out of the books. For one, I allow my PCs to use a different stat generation than the "standard" one, so I allow the monsters to have those same stats. This means recomputing attacks, saves, damage, DCs of abilities, skills, etc. Since I'm doing all this anyway, I take the time to check the skills and feats assigned, and change them where I see fit. How would you raise 15/25pt monsters to be more of a challenge for 32pt characters? Do you match all your encounters (pt-for-pt) to the party? I'm tired of boosting the ELs for a party (which just ends up with them getting more XP and more Wealth then desired), so I'm really starting to consider raising the 15/25pt monsters to higher. Do you have any suggestion? I realize I got myself into this mess by going with the 32pt, but the players all enjoy the high powered stuff... :(
Zherog 02-23-06, 12:26 PM	How would you raise 15/25pt monsters to be more of a challenge for 32pt characters? Do you match all your encounters (pt-for-pt) to the party? Yep - that's exactly what I do. I re-do their stats, then apply racial modifiers after the fact. Determining racial mods that aren't listed is pretty easy. If the number is even, subtract 10; if it's odd, subtract 11. That's your racial mod. For example, if something had 20 Strength and 8 Dex, it would have a +10 Strength mod and a -2 Dexterity mod. It's a huge pain in the ass - I'll admit that. Luckily (or unluckily, take your pick), my campaign involves combat with levelled NPCs more often than monsters, so I have to do the work anyway, and the few monsters I have to do don't add a significant amount of time. I also don't do it with every encounter with non-NPCs - mostly because I'm lazy. Encounter a wild animal in the woods that's acting aggressive? I'll probably use the stats right from it's stat block. Encounter an ogre looking for lunch? You can bet I'm re-doing it's stat block.
Father Tim 02-23-06, 12:33 PM	So trim the XP awards a bit and be happy. My gaming group has a phrase for this, going back to 2nd edition - 'the stirge or the ogre'. Both were worrth the same amount of XP, but one was clearly an easier fight than the other. If you feel the XP the DMG calls for is out of line with the encounter, reduce it. If you feel the PCs are gaining levels too fast, reduce the amount of XP they receive. If you feel they aren't gaining levels fast enough, increase it. Unless the 'same fight' varies wildly in XP from week to week, your PCs are unlikely to complain. If they got 3000 XP for an ogre last week, 300 for one this week, and 1800 for one next week they'll question it, but if you simply tell them you're scaling back the XP and why, hopefully they will accept it.
Zherog 02-23-06, 12:36 PM	An example encounter next: An ogre (CR 3) The party (again all 3rd level) is attacked by a charging ogre. The ogre does put a hurting on the fighter by dropping him to about 35% hit points, but is then dispatched. That's where I disagree with ogres being CR 3... but again it's my view on what a challenge should be I guess. That was an easy XP gain. I'm curious how the fight went, round by round. It seems the ogre got a surprise round? And he used it to charge the fighter, knocking off 65% of his hit points in one swing? Did the fighter begin to sweat? Did he consider withdrawling, since he knew one more hit could kill him? The ogre almost certainly didn't win Initiative. I'm guessing the two rogues did. What did they do? The ogre has 29 hit points if you run it straight from the book - about the same amount (more or less) that your fighter should have. After the rogues went in their init order (and I'm thinking at best only one of them got sneak attack), who went next - cleric, fighter, or ogre? Did the cleric attack, or did he heal the fighter? If he went for the healing spell, that's a resource used. If he attacked with a spell, or used a buff spell, that counts as a resource used. Did you remember that the ogre has reach, and therefore for your PCs to attack they have to get inside his reach, provoking an Attack of Opportunity? I guess I just find it hard to believe the ogre got to go only once. I'm curious how things went down. It's possible the PCs only got lucky. *shrug* That happens sometimes.
Illion the Red 02-23-06, 12:46 PM	I'm surprised no one else mentioned this, so I'll jump in here. The experience table is skewed to give out more (relative to amount needed to level) at levels 1-3. It doesn't really start differentiating until level 4. Now that your Characters are getting to level 4, things should start to sort themselves out. By level 5, everything should sort itself out and it will take longer to level up.
Arlechino 02-23-06, 12:53 PM	Thanks for the tip, Z. You'll notice that, without you reminding me, I avoided the mistake in my second post. It IS an important difference, but I sometimes ignore it when I'm not thinking clearly. Anyway: 17 skeletons is more than the EL system is designed to handle (I think the guideline is no more than 12 creatures, though I've heard that number may also be too high). With a party of 4 3rd and 4th level characters, they'll each get 425 xp. As you note, this encounter is somewhat easier than you might expect because it played to your party's special abilities. This gets into a controversial area, but you might consider giving an XP penalty because you knew you were playing to your party's strengths (parties with clerics can make mincemeat out of low-hd undead). At the very least, make sure that you vary the kinds of encounters you give the players. Sure, you might have given away some extra experience in this case (maybe the fight was worth 300 xp) but a different fight might be somewhat harder for your particular group than the EL would predict. In the case of the ogre, your 3rd level characters would each get 225 experience, and the 4th level characters would get 200. It seems like it challenged your party about right, since it eliminated most of one character's HP (since it was a fighter, it was probably about 1/4 of the party's total HP lost) and probably burned a few spells or rages or similar. Unless you had the party encounter 15 other similar encounters, however, I doubt they're making a level a session. How many encounters do you run in a session, anyway?
olshanski_home 02-23-06, 12:55 PM	How would you raise 15/25pt monsters to be more of a challenge for 32pt characters? Do you match all your encounters (pt-for-pt) to the party? I'm tired of boosting the ELs for a party (which just ends up with them getting more XP and more Wealth then desired), so I'm really starting to consider raising the 15/25pt monsters to higher. As a DM, I wouldn't have time to do piddly stuff like rearranging monster stats and everything else. The simple solution is to treat all monsters as if they are 1 CR lower than listed in the book, or treat the party as if they are one level higher than they would be with basic 25 point buy. This only comes into play for creating balanced encounters and for distributing experience points. If you would normally send a pair of CR3 ogres against your party of 4th level characters, instead you send a pair of CR4 minotaurs against them, or else, send 3 CR3 ogres. In either case, you'll give out experience as if the ogres were CR2 or the minotaurs are CR3. Basically, you are treating 32 point buy characters as if they have LA +1.
Zherog 02-23-06, 01:31 PM	As a DM, I wouldn't have time to do piddly stuff like rearranging monster stats and everything else. It's absolutely a ton of work, and if you're looking for a quick and dirty solution then treating the PCs as one level higher is a pretty darn good one. As I said, most of the foes my players face are leveled NPCs anyway. I'm already doing the work for about 80% of my encounters; another 5-10% I do in fact run straight from the book. So, really, it's only about 10-15% of my encounters that I'm doing extra work for. In my personal case, I find it to be worth the effort; you may find it to be different, and only redo the stats of a handful of monsters.
icedcrow 02-23-06, 01:34 PM	I doubt they're making a level a session. How many encounters do you run in a session, anyway? Depends. When I design a level of a dungeon I design it to hopefully move them up a level or so using the "13 encounters = 1 level" formula. They may go through 5 or 6 normal encounters (so say... 3 encounters with an ogre, 1 encounter with the 17 skeletons, 1 encounter with a group of cultists, and 1 encounter with an npc of their level leading a smaller group of cultists). After that they encounter anywhere between 2 and 4 traps (which to my knowledge also gives xp based off of the CR of the trap), a puzzle or two to solve, and an end-level encounter (usually NPCs or a powerful monster). I like a lot of the input. You're right, the encounters ARE designed around the party's strength. A few years ago I used to design encounters that were frustrating to my parties because I circumvented their strengths. Meaning clerics never fought undead, characters were never able to "show off". The DMG and later the DMG 2 to an extent as well as conversations on message boards and with my friends/players showed me that for the most part, that is not very much fun. I'm fortunate in my party to have some very very talented gamers who are into the campaign to a degree where they help design prestige classes, do art, write world history for the world, etc... I just want a way to also challenge them. The ogre in question charged down the hallway, missed his attack (it was at +10 on the charge vs the fighter's AC of 21) and was wailed on. It lost like 15 hp in round 1. Round 2 the ogre nailed the fighter for like 17 pts of damage (my ogre had a giant cleaver which I counted as a great sword). The fighter came back and hit the ogre again for another 14 or 15 pts. The ogre had 1 or 2 points left, struck the fighter. The fighter finished it in round 3. Granted it did take the fighter down a notch in HP, but the rest of the party just stood back and let him do his thing. Maybe that was my beef. Usually in combat, the party is not as active. Maybe that's not really a problem at all. They are having fun for the most part after all.
olshanski_home 02-23-06, 01:53 PM	You might consider changing up the opponents a little bit. Although I don't re-write stats for creatures, I will quite often give them a different suite of feats, weapons, and armor. Instead of a regular ogre with hide armor and a greatclub, (feats Toughness, weapon focus (greatclub)... Consider giving the ogre a glaive and weapon focus (glaive), and perhaps chainmail;Even if the ogre's first attack misses, the ogre gets an AoO if the fighter tries to close to attack (no simple 5' shift). You could also give the ogre a large longsword, a heavy wooden shield, and chainmail. The extra 4 points of AC might increase the ogre's survivability.
Illion the Red 02-23-06, 01:57 PM	Give the Ogre a spiked chain, combat reflexes, and Improved Trip. Suddenly, the fighter can't get back on his feet and nobody can get close enough to the ogre to do any damage...time for the spellcasters to shine (or everybody dies trying).
icedcrow 02-23-06, 01:59 PM	Good call. I will look into that.
Zherog 02-23-06, 02:05 PM	Instead of a regular ogre with hide armor and a greatclub, (feats Toughness, weapon focus (greatclub)... Consider giving the ogre a glaive and weapon focus (glaive), and perhaps chainmail; excellent suggestion! The attack roll stuff doesn't change - you've swapped the weapon, but kept the weapon focus feat. You need to refigure AC, but that isn't too difficult. This sort of thing is the easy way to alter a creature as written, just to change things up a bit. Even if the ogre's first attack misses, the ogre gets an AoO if the fighter tries to close to attack (no simple 5' shift). Actually, a 5' step would work just fine. After the ogre charges, it would look like this on the battlemat: FxO Where F = Fighter, x = Blank square, and O = ogre. The fighter can simply step in and play whack-an-ogre. You can resolve that "problem," though, with the above advice of swapping weapons; give the ogre a reach weapon, and now it threatens the squares 15' and 20' away; for the fighter to get into range, he has to eat up the AoO. You could also give the ogre a large longsword, a heavy wooden shield, and chainmail. The extra 4 points of AC might increase the ogre's survivability. I don't usually give ogres shields - they strike me as the sort of critter that grabs the biggest weapon it can find, and then swings it as hard as possible. It would certainly make for a different encounter, though - and that's one of the keys. I like to either swap Toughness for Power Attack, or give it a level of fighter. Overall, though, Icedcrow, it sounds like you're doing OK. Your players are having fun, and it sounds like - for the most part - you're having fun. Those two things are the most important aspects of this game.
Zherog 02-23-06, 02:07 PM	Give the Ogre a spiked chain, combat reflexes, and Improved Trip. Suddenly, the fighter can't get back on his feet and nobody can get close enough to the ogre to do any damage...time for the spellcasters to shine (or everybody dies trying). To do that, you would need to significantly advance the ogre. They have 4 racial hit die, so they have two feats. Improved Trip has Combat Expertise as a pre-req, so counting the exotic proficiency for the chain, your suggestion needs 4 feats. In addition, your suggestion requires the ogre's Intelligence be brought up to 13, in order to meet the pre-reqs for Combat Expertise. Finally, the standard ogre has a Dexterity of 8, which makes Combat Reflexes useless.
Illion the Red 02-23-06, 02:26 PM	To do that, you would need to significantly advance the ogre. They have 4 racial hit die, so they have two feats. Improved Trip has Combat Expertise as a pre-req, so counting the exotic proficiency for the chain, your suggestion needs 4 feats. In addition, your suggestion requires the ogre's Intelligence be brought up to 13, in order to meet the pre-reqs for Combat Expertise. Finally, the standard ogre has a Dexterity of 8, which makes Combat Reflexes useless. Quite an accurate analysis. I didn't do the math, but was just conceptionalizing it. I guess a few stat bumps and a level in each of Fighter and Swashbuckler (or two in fighter) would do it. (Guess that's what I get for not thinking my suggestion through...)
concerro 02-23-06, 02:54 PM	I apologize if this has been done up ad naseum but I have a little issue that I need some advice/help/discussion on. I have played D&D since 1st edition and I have to say first off that I like the direction 3rd ed goes in. That being said... I hate CR. I hate how XP are handled. It seems that the party goes up in level every week for one. I know I can slow down their leveling process by reducing XP awards and that's fine, but here's the thing... If I am running a 3rd level party of four 3rd level characters and I throw an ogre at them (CR 3)... they can 95% of the time destroy that ogre with little to no effort. To challenge them I have to throw encounter levels that are one or two levels higher then them. And by challenge I mean make them sweat a bit. The problem with that is the above mentioned... they get so many XPs that they just level up so quick. I find that a CR equal to the party level is not really much of a challenge at all. Do any of you find this to be the case as well and if so, how do you deal with it? The idea of making a party of 3rd level character fight a cr3 creature is if there are mulitple random encounters. Each member of the 3rd level party is also a cr3 so its basically four cr3's against one cr3. If your 4 pc's were opponents their EL would be 7 so your if you are doing a boss fight or you dont have a lot of encounters them make them fight a cr 7 monster or the equivalent if you want them to earn their XP points, however if you have them fight something at that level be sure to give them the opportunity to rest and get supplies before you send them against another encounter, and it should be a difficult encounter so do be surprised if someone doesn't make it out alive.
Zerchai 02-23-06, 03:02 PM	I feel that I should point out that a creature standing from prone cannot be tripped with any a.o.o. provoked by standing up - the creature is considered to be prone during those a.o.o.'s, and you can't trip a prone opponent (this is coming from the FAQ). Now, this obviously is beneficial in some other ways, namely the +4 to hit during that attack of opportunity for attacking a prone opponent, but it also keeps things from getting too insanely ludicrous when a person stands up only to be immediately tripped off of an a.o.o. Still, an ogre with a spiked chain and improved trip would be quite scary. Advance him a little bit more and give him Stand Still out of ExPH and you'll end up with something really frightening (for that CR).
Illion the Red 02-23-06, 03:07 PM	I feel that I should point out that a creature standing from prone cannot be tripped with any a.o.o. provoked by standing up - the creature is considered to be prone during those a.o.o.'s, and you can't trip a prone opponent (this is coming from the FAQ). Now, this obviously is beneficial in some other ways, namely the +4 to hit during that attack of opportunity for attacking a prone opponent, but it also keeps things from getting too insanely ludicrous when a person stands up only to be immediately tripped off of an a.o.o. Still, an ogre with a spiked chain and improved trip would be quite scary. Advance him a little bit more and give him Stand Still out of ExPH and you'll end up with something really frightening (for that CR). The Ogre doesn't trip during the "standing up" action. The Ogre trips during the "moving towards the Ogre to attack since it took another step back after it tripped me last time" action. Having a reach (with full threat coverage) in excess of 15 feet is an extreme case, but very challenging to a single-tactic fighter.
olshanski_home 02-23-06, 03:16 PM	This sort of thing is the easy way to alter a creature as written, just to change things up a bit. Actually, a 5' step would work just fine. After the ogre charges, it would look like this on the battlemat: FxO Where F = Fighter, x = Blank square, and O = ogre. The fighter can simply step in and play whack-an-ogre. You can resolve that "problem," though, with the above advice of swapping weapons; give the ogre a reach weapon, and now it threatens the squares 15' and 20' away; for the fighter to get into range, he has to eat up the AoO. My suggestion "Glaive" was in fact a reach weapon, which is why I said the ogre would still get an AoO if the fighter tried to close after the attack. The important thing to do is to make the AoO a trip attack, so that you are only going after the fighter's touch AC... this is certain to hit. Your hope then is that the ogres large size (+4) and decent strength are enough to assure a victory on the opposed trip rolls. If the fighter is a dwarf or raging barbarian, you probably just want to hit for damage, but against a finesse fighter, you should put them on the ground. On your next round, you can hammer them hard because you get a +4 to hit... and then stay close so that you get an other AoO if they try to stand up. I don't usually give ogres shields - they strike me as the sort of critter that grabs the biggest weapon it can find, and then swings it as hard as possible. It would certainly make for a different encounter, though - and that's one of the keys.If that were the case, the ogre should have power attack as a feat, and then they should probably also use it. Power attack is very useful with 2-handed weapons and a decent strength bonus. I prefer not to use this, because a lucky critical hit can destroy even a 3rd level character in one hit... which is why sword-and-board is sometimes better against fragile low-level characters.
Zherog 02-23-06, 03:23 PM	My suggestion "Glaive" was in fact a reach weapon Right - my turn to not pay attention to details. :blush: Carry on; nothing to see here.
kinjojones 02-23-06, 03:50 PM	I don't think this has been mentioned, but has the OP been remembering to divide the XP award by the number of the people in the party? his Party of lvl 4 characters kills one Cr 3 ogre and should recieve 200 xp each. If the typical session has 4 such encounters then they should only be recieving 800 xp a session which to me doesnt sound that ludicrous.
icedcrow 02-23-06, 03:52 PM	Yes it has been divided. Last week they received about 3000 xp from their encounters each.
Board_Rider 02-23-06, 04:01 PM	I may have missed this in a prior post so if I am repeating someone else, ignore my post. Although tactics have been mentioned I think that you should simply begin to use more, lower CR mosters or races with base classes. Remember, and I am positive you know, that you control the initial point of the encounter. In essence the PCs are walking into your setup. Use this to your advantage...heavily. Use that Ninja class to get Sudden Strikes off against the Mage (or for extra crunchiness a Whisper Gnome Rogue with the Silence Strike feat) of the party. Have those two Rogues get that SA damage and flanking bonus just as the fighter enters the door. Use Warlocks for those sword and board types with low Dexterity modifiers. This may come off as fostering a DM vs. Player mentality but remember that the bad guy is going to have defenses and usually not always of the stupid sort. Use what your players use. Spread those guys out. Use harnesess and fire from the ceiling. Use Acid Flasks and reach weapons (as noted). All of these ideas will provide plenty of challenge without the big XP payoff. I think one of the best examples of this can be found in the adventure The Burning Plague. There is a part in there where Kobolds fire on a party. The party, while having cover, still have a difficult time with this encounter. I once had 2 goblins almost TPK a 3rd level party of four just by using the goblins intelligently and waiting to attack at a good time...like when the party is squeezing through a narrow passage. I think that you will find that crafty tactics using lower CR creatures will cause a greater headache than 1 big bad guy who only get one set of actions to the party's four. Just my thoughts. Hope they help. Be :cool:, BR