An Odd Character [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Odd Character [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mithranir
06-08-07, 07:43 PM Hi everybody.

I'm trying my hand at DM-ing a game for the very first time this summer. I have my players all lined up, but I am having a slight problem. My Brother wants to play as a nymph druid for his character.

Of course, this presents me with a problem, because I'm using the core rulebooks and they don't give me the necessary tables to balance a character of this sort. And so, I come here asking for help. If anyone has any idea how to balance a character like this, I would seriously appreciate any assistance you could render me.

Thank you
DM_Dan
06-08-07, 07:53 PM A nymph straight out of the SRD has 6HD and a level adjustment of +7, and is therefore a character of 13th level before any class levels are added. If you are not beginning at a minimum level of 14, a Nymph is not an appropriate player race. If you are beginning at level 14 or above, the character will be a Druid of whatever the starting level is -13.

If this is the first game you have ever DMed, I would suggest you say no. Ask your brother to please use a core race and core rules only, and tell him you will be willing to consider the character for another game once you are more confident with DMing. Start at level 1 and go from there, otherwise you will land yourself with a big headache.

Hope this helps and good luck with your game,

DMD.
weasel0
06-08-07, 08:05 PM Ditto.
Ebonarc
06-08-07, 10:45 PM For the love of Pelor, DON'T ALLOW IT.

My first time DMing, my best friend, who had introduced me to the game and had been my first DM, wanted to play a sorcerer. A pixie sorcerer. I was clueless as to the danger of monsters as races toward game balance, and I allowed it. It pretty much derailed the campaign completely, and was one of the main reasons I had to end the campaign.

Unless you have had experience DMing normal characters, don't allow it. Even if you start out at a high level, and you SHOULDN'T for your first time behind the screen (another mistake I made), having monsters as races tends to cause significant problems. Monster characters, especially those who are all Level Adjustment and no racial hit dice (pixies!) tend to be fragile, and their bizarre abilities (DR, SR, Spell-likes) can annihilate what you thought would be a challenging adventure-even if it would have been, had the PCs been from standard races.
RobbyPants
06-08-07, 11:55 PM Yeah, as a first time DM, I would recommend you not let anyone play anything with a level adjustment. If you want to allow orcs, goblins, and kobolds, feel free, as they won't do too much harm to your game.

Monsters really weren't intended to be used as PCs. The LA system presented is really pretty crappy, when you look at it. Most people who talk at length about it have the impression that it exists almost to keep people from playing these races.

Just have him play a very attractive female human or elven druid. It's not the same thing, but it also won't break your game... well, not the race part, anyway :P
Kaldric
06-09-07, 12:41 AM If you use the rules as written, you will need to spend significant portions of your time figuring out a ton of extraneous rules information to allow your brother to play this character.

If you are an inexperienced DM, this will take time away from your preparation to create a basic, fun adventure. Everybody loses.

When your brother realizes that his character is fantastically fragile, easily killed compared to all of the other characters in the party, he will be disappointed or angry or frustrated, depending on his personality.

This is a losing proposition. The best advice that I, and apparently everyone who got here before me, is:

Do not allow it.

There is the barest chance that your brother will have more fun playing a nymph. There is a much more likely chance that you will be frustrated, he will be frustrated, and everyone else in your game will be disappointed with you. Why set yourself up for failure?
StoneStokes
06-09-07, 01:54 AM Here is an alternative class feature that might interest your brother. It allows him to have a fey companion in lieu of an animal companion.

FEY COMPANION

Replaces: Animal Companion

Benefit: A druid who forgoes the animal companion class feature at first level, and who speaks Sylvan, may gain a Fey Companion beginning at 3rd level.

SILVERBELL
Fine Fey
HD: 1d6+2 (5 hp)
Init: +9
Speed: 5 ft., fly 50 ft. (perfect)
AC: 23 (+8 size, +5 Dex), touch 23, flat-footed 18
Base Atk: +0
Grp: -21
Melee: spear +12 (1 minus 5)
Space: 1/2 ft.
Reach: 0 ft.
SA: lullaby
SQ: damage reduction 5/cold iron, low-light vision, illumination
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +7, Will +2
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills: Escape Artist +9, Hide +25, Knowledge (nature) +6, Listen +4, Move Silently +9, Perform (singing) +4, Spot +4, Tumble +9
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse (spear)
Alignment: Neutral Good

This is a shimmering humanoid figure, about the size of a human hand, with fine dragonfly wings, and bathed in a bright white light.

Silverbells speak Sylvan.

Lullaby (Su): as the spell, 20-ft. radius, Will DC 14 negates, successful save means immune to this effect for 24 hours, save DC is Cha-based. The caster level is equal to the silverbell's fey hit dice.

Illumination (Su): as an ongoing supernatural effect, a silverbell glows brightly. At will, as a free action, the silverbell can change the intensity of its glow. It can shed bright light up to a distance of 60 feet, or as little as 10 feet (shadowy illumination twice as far).

When the druid reaches 5th level (and every two levels thereafter), the silverbell gains a hit die in Fey (+1d6 hp, BAB +1, Ref +1, Will +1, 8 skill points with skills listed being class skills).

This class feature could be made available to rangers at 6th level if they don't take an animal companion at 4th level.

Effectively, this gives the druid the Leadership feat with this special cohort. However, the cohort will be somewhat ineffective in combat situations (except possibly the first round with the lullaby effect, and at higher levels with Bard abilities), but will be a nice companion to have around for the non-combat portions of the game.

Another way to look at it is as a very intelligent familiar.
Mithranir
06-09-07, 08:44 PM I would like to thank all of you gentlemen (Or Ladies, as the case may be) who took the time to make a comments and suggestions on this matter. I appreciate that you took the time to do so. To simplify my life, and that of my players I will not be allowing this character to make it out of the gate. I would like to especially thank StoneStokes for his Fey Companion suggestion. I very much appreciate it.

To be honest, I figured this wouldn't work. But then I also heard a tale from my normal DM about a Gelatinous Cube Monk (Yes, it's true) that had an AC of 35 and a reach of something ridiculous like 30 feet. I figured that this had to make more sense than that
forsaken1111
06-09-07, 09:42 PM To be honest, I figured this wouldn't work. But then I also heard a tale from my normal DM about a Gelatinous Cube Monk (Yes, it's true) that had an AC of 35 and a reach of something ridiculous like 30 feet. I figured that this had to make more sense than that

Yeah that was invented one of the articles on this site, don't let him tell you he made it up.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060922a
StoneStokes
06-09-07, 11:26 PM I would like to especially thank StoneStokes for his Fey Companion suggestion. I very much appreciate it.

No problem. It just so happens that in our group we were having a similar discussion, and I had this on my desktop.

Cheers,
StoneStokes
buzzsawl
06-10-07, 02:06 AM Isn't there a Fey-touched feat somewhere that essentially means that the character is 1/2-1/4 fey?

Don't remember what it does or where it is...but a Fey-touched Elven Druid w/ fey companion seems about as close as you can get w/out either unbalancing the party or going out and buying savage species.
Mithranir
06-10-07, 03:22 AM Actually, My first thought was Savage Species. I don't own it, but I have a friend (My normal DM) who does. I asked him about it, but apparently the conversion for Nymphs, or Dryads doesn't exist in book. This may or may not be true, but I tend to think he's an honest fellow and would not purposely decieve me. Also, an interesting notion, the Fey-touched template. I shall have to look into this further;)
Ainianu
06-10-07, 05:41 AM id agree with others on simply not allowing, as its the easiest solution wiht least potential for disrupting things.

However.
Nymph is a fairly simple 'monster' it would be possible to reduce it somewhat by removing its HD and druid levels, and leaving it just with the special abilities.

Sight causing blindness, look causes stun etc, but having 1hd at level 1 with something like +3 adjustment would suffice.
And then you would need to take these abilities into account in every encounter you design, while some being trivialised may be fine (and fun for player) using these skills, there needs to be challenge via npcs with higher fort saves to avoid the stuns, and perhaps 'no eyes' to be blinded.
By the time you reach higher levels those abilities would be pretty minor anyway and your brother would have been wishing he was 3 levels more of druid :P
Ebonarc
06-10-07, 12:05 PM id agree with others on simply not allowing, as its the easiest solution wiht least potential for disrupting things.

However.
Nymph is a fairly simple 'monster' it would be possible to reduce it somewhat by removing its HD and druid levels, and leaving it just with the special abilities.

Sight causing blindness, look causes stun etc, but having 1hd at level 1 with something like +3 adjustment would suffice.
And then you would need to take these abilities into account in every encounter you design, while some being trivialised may be fine (and fun for player) using these skills, there needs to be challenge via npcs with higher fort saves to avoid the stuns, and perhaps 'no eyes' to be blinded.
By the time you reach higher levels those abilities would be pretty minor anyway and your brother would have been wishing he was 3 levels more of druid :P

I don't recommend altering its abilities and powers, either. The pixie sorcerer I mentioned? Its player and I went through and reduced or eliminated the majority of its abilities. By the time we were done, that pixie had a level adjustment of +1. And it was completely inaccurate. Looking back, it should have been more like +3.

Unless you have serious experience, nerfing creatures to keep the flavor and take out the level adjustment can end disastrously. It takes experience to estimate level adjustment based on nerfed abilities, and any misjudgements can leave the character in question unbalancing the party and encounters with impunity.
Ainianu
06-10-07, 12:20 PM I don't recommend altering its abilities and powers, either. The pixie sorcerer I mentioned? Its player and I went through and reduced or eliminated the majority of its abilities. By the time we were done, that pixie had a level adjustment of +1. And it was completely inaccurate. Looking back, it should have been more like +3.

Unless you have serious experience, nerfing creatures to keep the flavor and take out the level adjustment can end disastrously. It takes experience to estimate level adjustment based on nerfed abilities, and any misjudgements can leave the character in question unbalancing the party and encounters with impunity.

It totally depends on how it is handled, and the abilities of the DM, the kind of abilities a Nymph has can be countered quite easily and make it possibly a curse more than a gift.
Imagine... a Nymph walking around in a city? what would a wizard offer to capture such a pet? A Nymph forced into battle in a street? Fast way to get the authorities attention is to blind half the onlookers. Would actually give some interesting roleplay opportunities :)
someonelse812
06-10-07, 12:22 PM if this is your first game you should limit the players to the PHB. period. limit your monsters to the monster manual or what ever is in the module you are using. keep it simple until you get the hang of it, then expand slowly.
Nymor
06-10-07, 12:33 PM You could consider another option. The Uldra (Frostburn) is a +1LA FEY race with DRUID as favored class :)
It is very much more likely to be played than a +13LA Nymph. I hope it will be useful ;)
someonelse812
06-10-07, 12:57 PM I have an advancement chart for the Nymph according to the rules given in the Savage Species, I can post that here if you like.
Mithranir
06-10-07, 01:36 PM They actually have an advancement chart for Nymphs in Savage species? Huh, I must have been misinformed by my DM. In any case, Someonelse, While I appreciate the offer to post the table up here please don't trouble yourself. In the interests of my own sanity, we'll be sticking to Elves, Dwarves and other Players handbook species.

After all, what's the point of being a DM if you don't get to veto some of your players ideas from time to time?
;)
someonelse812
06-10-07, 01:39 PM its not IN the savage species, I just used the rules given in the savage species and applied them to the Nymph in the monster manual. its about 13 levels and I think it looks pretty balanced, although I have not yet tested it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mithranir 06-08-07, 07:43 PM	Hi everybody. I'm trying my hand at DM-ing a game for the very first time this summer. I have my players all lined up, but I am having a slight problem. My Brother wants to play as a nymph druid for his character. Of course, this presents me with a problem, because I'm using the core rulebooks and they don't give me the necessary tables to balance a character of this sort. And so, I come here asking for help. If anyone has any idea how to balance a character like this, I would seriously appreciate any assistance you could render me. Thank you
DM_Dan 06-08-07, 07:53 PM	A nymph straight out of the SRD has 6HD and a level adjustment of +7, and is therefore a character of 13th level before any class levels are added. If you are not beginning at a minimum level of 14, a Nymph is not an appropriate player race. If you are beginning at level 14 or above, the character will be a Druid of whatever the starting level is -13. If this is the first game you have ever DMed, I would suggest you say no. Ask your brother to please use a core race and core rules only, and tell him you will be willing to consider the character for another game once you are more confident with DMing. Start at level 1 and go from there, otherwise you will land yourself with a big headache. Hope this helps and good luck with your game, DMD.
weasel0 06-08-07, 08:05 PM	Ditto.
Ebonarc 06-08-07, 10:45 PM	For the love of Pelor, DON'T ALLOW IT. My first time DMing, my best friend, who had introduced me to the game and had been my first DM, wanted to play a sorcerer. A pixie sorcerer. I was clueless as to the danger of monsters as races toward game balance, and I allowed it. It pretty much derailed the campaign completely, and was one of the main reasons I had to end the campaign. Unless you have had experience DMing normal characters, don't allow it. Even if you start out at a high level, and you SHOULDN'T for your first time behind the screen (another mistake I made), having monsters as races tends to cause significant problems. Monster characters, especially those who are all Level Adjustment and no racial hit dice (pixies!) tend to be fragile, and their bizarre abilities (DR, SR, Spell-likes) can annihilate what you thought would be a challenging adventure-even if it would have been, had the PCs been from standard races.
RobbyPants 06-08-07, 11:55 PM	Yeah, as a first time DM, I would recommend you not let anyone play anything with a level adjustment. If you want to allow orcs, goblins, and kobolds, feel free, as they won't do too much harm to your game. Monsters really weren't intended to be used as PCs. The LA system presented is really pretty crappy, when you look at it. Most people who talk at length about it have the impression that it exists almost to keep people from playing these races. Just have him play a very attractive female human or elven druid. It's not the same thing, but it also won't break your game... well, not the race part, anyway :P
Kaldric 06-09-07, 12:41 AM	If you use the rules as written, you will need to spend significant portions of your time figuring out a ton of extraneous rules information to allow your brother to play this character. If you are an inexperienced DM, this will take time away from your preparation to create a basic, fun adventure. Everybody loses. When your brother realizes that his character is fantastically fragile, easily killed compared to all of the other characters in the party, he will be disappointed or angry or frustrated, depending on his personality. This is a losing proposition. The best advice that I, and apparently everyone who got here before me, is: Do not allow it. There is the barest chance that your brother will have more fun playing a nymph. There is a much more likely chance that you will be frustrated, he will be frustrated, and everyone else in your game will be disappointed with you. Why set yourself up for failure?
StoneStokes 06-09-07, 01:54 AM	Here is an alternative class feature that might interest your brother. It allows him to have a fey companion in lieu of an animal companion. FEY COMPANION Replaces: Animal Companion Benefit: A druid who forgoes the animal companion class feature at first level, and who speaks Sylvan, may gain a Fey Companion beginning at 3rd level. SILVERBELL Fine Fey HD: 1d6+2 (5 hp) Init: +9 Speed: 5 ft., fly 50 ft. (perfect) AC: 23 (+8 size, +5 Dex), touch 23, flat-footed 18 Base Atk: +0 Grp: -21 Melee: spear +12 (1 minus 5) Space: 1/2 ft. Reach: 0 ft. SA: lullaby SQ: damage reduction 5/cold iron, low-light vision, illumination Saves: Fort +2, Ref +7, Will +2 Abilities: Str 1, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 10 Skills: Escape Artist +9, Hide +25, Knowledge (nature) +6, Listen +4, Move Silently +9, Perform (singing) +4, Spot +4, Tumble +9 Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse (spear) Alignment: Neutral Good This is a shimmering humanoid figure, about the size of a human hand, with fine dragonfly wings, and bathed in a bright white light. Silverbells speak Sylvan. Lullaby (Su): as the spell, 20-ft. radius, Will DC 14 negates, successful save means immune to this effect for 24 hours, save DC is Cha-based. The caster level is equal to the silverbell's fey hit dice. Illumination (Su): as an ongoing supernatural effect, a silverbell glows brightly. At will, as a free action, the silverbell can change the intensity of its glow. It can shed bright light up to a distance of 60 feet, or as little as 10 feet (shadowy illumination twice as far). When the druid reaches 5th level (and every two levels thereafter), the silverbell gains a hit die in Fey (+1d6 hp, BAB +1, Ref +1, Will +1, 8 skill points with skills listed being class skills). This class feature could be made available to rangers at 6th level if they don't take an animal companion at 4th level. Effectively, this gives the druid the Leadership feat with this special cohort. However, the cohort will be somewhat ineffective in combat situations (except possibly the first round with the lullaby effect, and at higher levels with Bard abilities), but will be a nice companion to have around for the non-combat portions of the game. Another way to look at it is as a very intelligent familiar.
Mithranir 06-09-07, 08:44 PM	I would like to thank all of you gentlemen (Or Ladies, as the case may be) who took the time to make a comments and suggestions on this matter. I appreciate that you took the time to do so. To simplify my life, and that of my players I will not be allowing this character to make it out of the gate. I would like to especially thank StoneStokes for his Fey Companion suggestion. I very much appreciate it. To be honest, I figured this wouldn't work. But then I also heard a tale from my normal DM about a Gelatinous Cube Monk (Yes, it's true) that had an AC of 35 and a reach of something ridiculous like 30 feet. I figured that this had to make more sense than that
forsaken1111 06-09-07, 09:42 PM	To be honest, I figured this wouldn't work. But then I also heard a tale from my normal DM about a Gelatinous Cube Monk (Yes, it's true) that had an AC of 35 and a reach of something ridiculous like 30 feet. I figured that this had to make more sense than that Yeah that was invented one of the articles on this site, don't let him tell you he made it up. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060922a
StoneStokes 06-09-07, 11:26 PM	I would like to especially thank StoneStokes for his Fey Companion suggestion. I very much appreciate it. No problem. It just so happens that in our group we were having a similar discussion, and I had this on my desktop. Cheers, StoneStokes
buzzsawl 06-10-07, 02:06 AM	Isn't there a Fey-touched feat somewhere that essentially means that the character is 1/2-1/4 fey? Don't remember what it does or where it is...but a Fey-touched Elven Druid w/ fey companion seems about as close as you can get w/out either unbalancing the party or going out and buying savage species.
Mithranir 06-10-07, 03:22 AM	Actually, My first thought was Savage Species. I don't own it, but I have a friend (My normal DM) who does. I asked him about it, but apparently the conversion for Nymphs, or Dryads doesn't exist in book. This may or may not be true, but I tend to think he's an honest fellow and would not purposely decieve me. Also, an interesting notion, the Fey-touched template. I shall have to look into this further;)
Ainianu 06-10-07, 05:41 AM	id agree with others on simply not allowing, as its the easiest solution wiht least potential for disrupting things. However. Nymph is a fairly simple 'monster' it would be possible to reduce it somewhat by removing its HD and druid levels, and leaving it just with the special abilities. Sight causing blindness, look causes stun etc, but having 1hd at level 1 with something like +3 adjustment would suffice. And then you would need to take these abilities into account in every encounter you design, while some being trivialised may be fine (and fun for player) using these skills, there needs to be challenge via npcs with higher fort saves to avoid the stuns, and perhaps 'no eyes' to be blinded. By the time you reach higher levels those abilities would be pretty minor anyway and your brother would have been wishing he was 3 levels more of druid :P
Ebonarc 06-10-07, 12:05 PM	id agree with others on simply not allowing, as its the easiest solution wiht least potential for disrupting things. However. Nymph is a fairly simple 'monster' it would be possible to reduce it somewhat by removing its HD and druid levels, and leaving it just with the special abilities. Sight causing blindness, look causes stun etc, but having 1hd at level 1 with something like +3 adjustment would suffice. And then you would need to take these abilities into account in every encounter you design, while some being trivialised may be fine (and fun for player) using these skills, there needs to be challenge via npcs with higher fort saves to avoid the stuns, and perhaps 'no eyes' to be blinded. By the time you reach higher levels those abilities would be pretty minor anyway and your brother would have been wishing he was 3 levels more of druid :P I don't recommend altering its abilities and powers, either. The pixie sorcerer I mentioned? Its player and I went through and reduced or eliminated the majority of its abilities. By the time we were done, that pixie had a level adjustment of +1. And it was completely inaccurate. Looking back, it should have been more like +3. Unless you have serious experience, nerfing creatures to keep the flavor and take out the level adjustment can end disastrously. It takes experience to estimate level adjustment based on nerfed abilities, and any misjudgements can leave the character in question unbalancing the party and encounters with impunity.
Ainianu 06-10-07, 12:20 PM	I don't recommend altering its abilities and powers, either. The pixie sorcerer I mentioned? Its player and I went through and reduced or eliminated the majority of its abilities. By the time we were done, that pixie had a level adjustment of +1. And it was completely inaccurate. Looking back, it should have been more like +3. Unless you have serious experience, nerfing creatures to keep the flavor and take out the level adjustment can end disastrously. It takes experience to estimate level adjustment based on nerfed abilities, and any misjudgements can leave the character in question unbalancing the party and encounters with impunity. It totally depends on how it is handled, and the abilities of the DM, the kind of abilities a Nymph has can be countered quite easily and make it possibly a curse more than a gift. Imagine... a Nymph walking around in a city? what would a wizard offer to capture such a pet? A Nymph forced into battle in a street? Fast way to get the authorities attention is to blind half the onlookers. Would actually give some interesting roleplay opportunities :)
someonelse812 06-10-07, 12:22 PM	if this is your first game you should limit the players to the PHB. period. limit your monsters to the monster manual or what ever is in the module you are using. keep it simple until you get the hang of it, then expand slowly.
Nymor 06-10-07, 12:33 PM	You could consider another option. The Uldra (Frostburn) is a +1LA FEY race with DRUID as favored class :) It is very much more likely to be played than a +13LA Nymph. I hope it will be useful ;)
someonelse812 06-10-07, 12:57 PM	I have an advancement chart for the Nymph according to the rules given in the Savage Species, I can post that here if you like.
Mithranir 06-10-07, 01:36 PM	They actually have an advancement chart for Nymphs in Savage species? Huh, I must have been misinformed by my DM. In any case, Someonelse, While I appreciate the offer to post the table up here please don't trouble yourself. In the interests of my own sanity, we'll be sticking to Elves, Dwarves and other Players handbook species. After all, what's the point of being a DM if you don't get to veto some of your players ideas from time to time? ;)
someonelse812 06-10-07, 01:39 PM	its not IN the savage species, I just used the rules given in the savage species and applied them to the Nymph in the monster manual. its about 13 levels and I think it looks pretty balanced, although I have not yet tested it.