An ultra-rare Gestalt NPC in a non-Gestalt world... Challenge Rating? [Archive] - Wizards Community

An ultra-rare Gestalt NPC in a non-Gestalt world... Challenge Rating? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Pallin Rahl
06-28-06, 12:35 PM Now first let me just point out that this NPC is basically a legendary hero who has been around for quite some time (he's an Elan) and is currently the ruler of a fairly large portion of my campaign world. He's ...well ...special. :)

Over the course of the campaign, I can not forsee any reason for the PCs to ever enter combat with this NPC... let alone, against this NPC. ...but you know how those things go. :P (wacky PCs and their tendency to do exactly that which you didn't forsee hehe). Regardless, I like to be prepared (and there is always the slim chance that someday he'd enter into combat to stand against some epic threat if pulled into things by the PCs).

So, what Challenge Rating would you give a: Gestalt Psion 20 // Fighter 20...? (it's definitely not anywhere near 40... but it should be noticeably more than 20)

Any help appreciated (or if there is some rule for this that I missed, I'd love to read it...)

If it matters, however... keep in mind that he's kind of an anomaly in this world. Being Gestalt is so rare that he might be the only one around (or one of only a very small few)... generally speaking, all (including the PCs) are certainly not Gestalt.
DubhFaolan
06-28-06, 01:00 PM The gestalt rules in UA say treat PCs with Gestalt as being two levels higher for judging CRs.

For CR of a gestalt character? I'd say take the number of gestalt levels, divide by 5, and add that to the CR.
(Gestalting gets more powerful at higher levels, where you're taking the top-level abilities from two classes)

So I'd say your hero would be CR 24, and is as nasty a challenge as a non-epic NPC can get.
kliate
06-28-06, 01:34 PM If you take two separate characters, a Psion 20 and a Fighter 20, they're each CR 20. Together, they'd be EL 22.

The gestalt differs from this slightly:
Advantages:
-Can combine the strengths of both classes. Psionics which only affect the self work off of the already powerful Fighter base attack bonus. Fighter feats which can work along side or are boosted by psionics are readily available. Psionic feats can combine very powerfully with fighter feats as well.
-Saves are strong, but no stronger than another 20th level characters' best save.
-To defeat this opponent, you have to whittle through one entire pool of hit points. He doesn't become any weaker until all of them are gone.
Disadvantages:
-His stats are spread rather thinly across Str, Dex, Con and Int to get the best use of his classes. None of these stats are likely to be exceptional (20+) without the aid of magical items or psionics.
-He only acts once in a round, barring the use of certain psionic powers
-He is only one target to shoot
-He is unlikely to have a diverse pool of skills.

Those things considered, I'd peg him at about a CR 22. Given the treasure for a 22nd level NPC to work with (in addition to the wealth of most of the world, and the resources this allows him to call upon...but assume he carries 22nd level NPC wealth), a 20th level party would find themselves able to defeat such an opponent with carefully planned out group tactics. I highly doubt that someone of such importance would easily be caught alone in a fight, however.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pallin Rahl 06-28-06, 12:35 PM	Now first let me just point out that this NPC is basically a legendary hero who has been around for quite some time (he's an Elan) and is currently the ruler of a fairly large portion of my campaign world. He's ...well ...special. :) Over the course of the campaign, I can not forsee any reason for the PCs to ever enter combat with this NPC... let alone, against this NPC. ...but you know how those things go. :P (wacky PCs and their tendency to do exactly that which you didn't forsee hehe). Regardless, I like to be prepared (and there is always the slim chance that someday he'd enter into combat to stand against some epic threat if pulled into things by the PCs). So, what Challenge Rating would you give a: Gestalt Psion 20 // Fighter 20...? (it's definitely not anywhere near 40... but it should be noticeably more than 20) Any help appreciated (or if there is some rule for this that I missed, I'd love to read it...) If it matters, however... keep in mind that he's kind of an anomaly in this world. Being Gestalt is so rare that he might be the only one around (or one of only a very small few)... generally speaking, all (including the PCs) are certainly not Gestalt.
DubhFaolan 06-28-06, 01:00 PM	The gestalt rules in UA say treat PCs with Gestalt as being two levels higher for judging CRs. For CR of a gestalt character? I'd say take the number of gestalt levels, divide by 5, and add that to the CR. (Gestalting gets more powerful at higher levels, where you're taking the top-level abilities from two classes) So I'd say your hero would be CR 24, and is as nasty a challenge as a non-epic NPC can get.
kliate 06-28-06, 01:34 PM	If you take two separate characters, a Psion 20 and a Fighter 20, they're each CR 20. Together, they'd be EL 22. The gestalt differs from this slightly: Advantages: -Can combine the strengths of both classes. Psionics which only affect the self work off of the already powerful Fighter base attack bonus. Fighter feats which can work along side or are boosted by psionics are readily available. Psionic feats can combine very powerfully with fighter feats as well. -Saves are strong, but no stronger than another 20th level characters' best save. -To defeat this opponent, you have to whittle through one entire pool of hit points. He doesn't become any weaker until all of them are gone. Disadvantages: -His stats are spread rather thinly across Str, Dex, Con and Int to get the best use of his classes. None of these stats are likely to be exceptional (20+) without the aid of magical items or psionics. -He only acts once in a round, barring the use of certain psionic powers -He is only one target to shoot -He is unlikely to have a diverse pool of skills. Those things considered, I'd peg him at about a CR 22. Given the treasure for a 22nd level NPC to work with (in addition to the wealth of most of the world, and the resources this allows him to call upon...but assume he carries 22nd level NPC wealth), a 20th level party would find themselves able to defeat such an opponent with carefully planned out group tactics. I highly doubt that someone of such importance would easily be caught alone in a fight, however.