Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MasterRookie 05-29-05, 07:57 PM	For any of you that read my "Events out of Control" Thread I'm now economically analyzing my BBEG's Iron golem army program. So far the program costs a little over a million GP to comlplete. The monthly income for this kingdom was 260,000 initailly, however civil war has caused funds to drop to around 80,000 that is if each citizen is taxed 1gp a month. which is suposedly a lot. What is the maximum these people can be taxed and what other things would need government funding. How much money should already be in this nation's coffer, if this project will place the country thousands of GP in debt every month how can I easily get more money, keep in mind this guy is an insane dictator so anything stalinistic is totally fine.
dungeonmasterblog 05-29-05, 09:13 PM	Instead of going into debt, wouldn't your best bet be going over to your neighbor with your army and taking them over and using their money. Dungeon Master http://dungeonsdragonsdmblog.blogspot.com
Sargon 05-29-05, 09:35 PM	AS it happens i once wondered about how the Economic system on D&D worked. the Profession and Craft skills say that a character can earn half his check in gold pieces per week, so even a level 1 commoner with Profession: Ditch Digger (assume all 4 ranks, a 10 Int, and an average of 10 on the roll) gets 7 gold per week or about 10sp per day. Heck, even untrained he averages 5 gold per week--about 7sp per day. Those guys in the DMG getting 1-2sp per day are getting screwed. Doubly so since the rules for creating villages means many of them will be more than 1st level (and thus make more per week with the increase in ranks). I don't remember who posted this but it was a logical argument by me... So if you go with the Profession Craft system thats would mean 28 gp a month for a common Ditch Digger .. raises taxes to TWO GP!! Or you know.. just take some neighboor as slaves and sell all thier stuff and use them as slaves (no labor cost but the do have to be kept alive) or Sell them off To. If you want good slave labor might i suggest Zombies.. or Skeletons. Agree to establish a Necro temple with your walls or a Bleack Academy or Shrin to Wee Jas or something.. just as long as you can attract several Powerful Necromancer and cleric. Offer the mprotetion with your Iron Golem Army.. And have Undead as Slaves. ANd evn get some flesh Golems to supplment your iron ones.
Reprisal 05-29-05, 10:46 PM	Remember that economics is not the study of currency and pricing. Rather, economics is the study and organization of the use of scarce resources. Almost everything in economics is a resource: time, land, labour, capital, and creativity are among the most important. Everything has a cost, and this may not be in gold or whatever currency you choose to use. Economists call these types of costs "opportunity costs." These costs all have to do with choice. Choosing to do this will mean that you won't be able to do that, whether it be because you can't afford to monetarily, or because you simply don't have the time or knowledge, does not matter. Though thinking in terms of gold pieces in D&D is often the easiest thing to do, you need not do so... Abundant resources tend to be valued less than scarce ones. If you can somehow pay for something costing more through gold with something that you have in abundance, like food or labour, then you've effectively used the resources you have in order to get something you want or need. If your BBEG is looking to build an army of Iron Golems (no small feat as expressed through gold pieces), then you should perhaps start to look for other means of procuring the necessary resources. In order to create an Iron Golem, you need an amount of resources. Namely, you need lots of iron, lots of experience points, and the knowledge to make golems. Iron is the easiest to get. If your BBEG is truly E then slave labour is perhaps the best option available. Figure out how much ore a slave can move in a day, then multiply that by a number of slaves needed to meet your quota and then allocate a number of guards and food in order to keep those slaves alive until the quota is met. Food and labour, generally speaking, are cheap when compared to other resources. Most food and virtually all labour is self-replicating. The tough ones are scarce resources like commodities (iron, coal, yew trees, etc) and knowledge. Not everyone possesses the knowledge to create golems, and can you be certain that you can procure the services of those that do? Gold, or any established currency, is a means to an end. If you have it in abundance, then you have the most liquid of resources, called capital, and can use it to procure the other resources necessary. But you're then subject to prices that can rise and fall. If word gets out that you're buying iron like its going out of style, then the price of iron will most likely rise considerably. If the Guild of Slightly Evil Mages gets wind of your recruitment, then their services will get much more expensive. So, I say to your BBEG, use the resources you have available and exploit them to their fullest. Lots of people? Slavery is definately an option, albeit a vile one. Lots of knowledge and creativity? Find out a new way to make Iron Golems that doesn't require as much time, experience points, or resources. "A new magic item that saps experience points from the blood of sacrificed prisoners and stores them for creation of magic items, you say? I'll take five hundred!" Some things to think about, I guess, :D - Rep.
MasterRookie 05-29-05, 11:50 PM	Remember that economics is not the study of currency and pricing. Rather, economics is the study and organization of the use of scarce resources. Almost everything in economics is a resource: time, land, labour, capital, and creativity are among the most important. Everything has a cost, and this may not be in gold or whatever currency you choose to use. Economists call these types of costs "opportunity costs." These costs all have to do with choice. Choosing to do this will mean that you won't be able to do that, whether it be because you can't afford to monetarily, or because you simply don't have the time or knowledge, does not matter. Though thinking in terms of gold pieces in D&D is often the easiest thing to do, you need not do so... Abundant resources tend to be valued less than scarce ones. If you can somehow pay for something costing more through gold with something that you have in abundance, like food or labour, then you've effectively used the resources you have in order to get something you want or need. If your BBEG is looking to build an army of Iron Golems (no small feat as expressed through gold pieces), then you should perhaps start to look for other means of procuring the necessary resources. In order to create an Iron Golem, you need an amount of resources. Namely, you need lots of iron, lots of experience points, and the knowledge to make golems. Iron is the easiest to get. If your BBEG is truly E then slave labour is perhaps the best option available. Figure out how much ore a slave can move in a day, then multiply that by a number of slaves needed to meet your quota and then allocate a number of guards and food in order to keep those slaves alive until the quota is met. Food and labour, generally speaking, are cheap when compared to other resources. Most food and virtually all labour is self-replicating. The tough ones are scarce resources like commodities (iron, coal, yew trees, etc) and knowledge. Not everyone possesses the knowledge to create golems, and can you be certain that you can procure the services of those that do? Gold, or any established currency, is a means to an end. If you have it in abundance, then you have the most liquid of resources, called capital, and can use it to procure the other resources necessary. But you're then subject to prices that can rise and fall. If word gets out that you're buying iron like its going out of style, then the price of iron will most likely rise considerably. If the Guild of Slightly Evil Mages gets wind of your recruitment, then their services will get much more expensive. So, I say to your BBEG, use the resources you have available and exploit them to their fullest. Lots of people? Slavery is definately an option, albeit a vile one. Lots of knowledge and creativity? Find out a new way to make Iron Golems that doesn't require as much time, experience points, or resources. "A new magic item that saps experience points from the blood of sacrificed prisoners and stores them for creation of magic items, you say? I'll take five hundred!" Some things to think about, I guess, :D - Rep. Ah slaves already got that. Yes The price of iron will increase but not for the Golems since they get it free. I'd like to stay somewhat within the rules for new creation methods. I've already got rings that will leach the magic abilitys from one wizard and put them into another. Eg the low level casters who can't make golems into the high level ones who can. The process is dangerous the one being leached feel's terrible and the one using it feels like he's pepped up on caffine and may die, or slip into a coma if he stops getting it. As for cost managment, the golem costs 100,000 to construct the MM says that that includes 1500 or so for the body, Whats the rest for?
MasterRookie 05-29-05, 11:52 PM	Instead of going into debt, wouldn't your best bet be going over to your neighbor with your army and taking them over and using their money. Dungeon Master http://dungeonsdragonsdmblog.blogspot.com Thats how he'll pay off the debt but there's a major civil war going on and he doesn't want to split his forces.
Sargon 05-29-05, 11:55 PM	WEll some of it goes to magical componets it takes to activate the Golem.. You can't just build a body and make it live.. And since he has all those High level wizards enslaved.. Animate Dead pell = (free slaves)
MasterRookie 05-29-05, 11:59 PM	hmm. Good thoughts. But what I really need is information on how to manage the budget. What else would an archaic government need to fit into its budget. The only thing I can think of is the military, and possilby building upkeep.
braindead345 05-30-05, 03:39 AM	The civil servants cost. These include advisers, the exchequer (the guy who shells out the cash), tax collectors, constibles, ambassadors, spies, and heralds. The taxes were collected usually only from land owners (nobles) who pay annually. The nobles collected the taxes from the serfs (peasants) who live on their land. The taxes were collected annually due to the fact most people were farming and wouldn't have anything until harvest. However, the easiest way to work out your budget is to go at it backwards. Figure out how many people you can tax and charge them 20 to 30% of their income. Work out how much you spend on operating your kingdom (that should not excede your average incoming taxes). The difference between the taxes collected and the expenses is what you can afford to spend on the war. Your gold reserves will equal this difference x 10. Even if your kingdom is older, figure that some predecessor spent it on something. Wars were usually fought in summer or winter (mostly winter) because the supply of labor was not busy planting or harvesting.
Cantankerous 05-30-05, 04:42 AM	This "Army of Iron Golems", as I'm making it, on 1,000,000 gp it should number 58 of them, yes? Isshia
FriendoftheDork 05-30-05, 07:04 AM	BBEG to the good-aligned nations: " I will use my army of Golems to crush you! Unless you pay me..... 100.000 GP! :smirk: league of good-aligned nations: "hehehehe" Seneschal to BBEG: "Ehm sire might I remind you that those Golems cost us more than 1000.000 GP, and that we have exceeded our budget..." BBEG: "Oh.... I meant 100 million GP!" :smirk: league of good-aligned nations: "gasp!"
Thoronmir 05-30-05, 10:20 AM	This "Army of Iron Golems", as I'm making it, on 1,000,000 gp it should number 58 of them, yes? IsshiaI'm looking at the MM entry for Iron Golem (p. 136-137), which lists the cost to make an Iron Golem as 80,000 gp (plus 5,600 XP). Dragging my Mathematics Minor out of storage tells me that you could make 12.5 Iron Golems for 1 million gp. What am I missing in this calculation, because I can't get to 58 using these figures? Also, if I'm right, do 12 Golems constitute an "army"? EDIT: FOTD, I suppose he could use that .5 remainder to make a small Iron Golem ... "I shall call him Mini-Golem!"
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 10:42 AM	This "Army of Iron Golems", as I'm making it, on 1,000,000 gp it should number 58 of them, yes? Isshia 100 actually. I've saved money on iron because its being slave mined. And on wizard labor because its forced.
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 10:44 AM	I'm looking at the MM entry for Iron Golem (p. 136-137), which lists the cost to make an Iron Golem as 80,000 gp (plus 5,600 XP). Dragging my Mathematics Minor out of storage tells me that you could make 12.5 Iron Golems for 1 million gp. What am I missing in this calculation, because I can't get to 58 using these figures? Also, if I'm right, do 12 Golems constitute an "army"? EDIT: FOTD, I suppose he could use that .5 remainder to make a small Iron Golem ... "I shall call him Mini-Golem!" Mabye I'm using an old edition. Remember to remove the cost of iron and labor. let me recheck my figure's.
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 10:48 AM	Oops my mistake the progect is costing 8,800,000 gp
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 10:49 AM	The civil servants cost. These include advisers, the exchequer (the guy who shells out the cash), tax collectors, constibles, ambassadors, spies, and heralds. The taxes were collected usually only from land owners (nobles) who pay annually. The nobles collected the taxes from the serfs (peasants) who live on their land. The taxes were collected annually due to the fact most people were farming and wouldn't have anything until harvest. However, the easiest way to work out your budget is to go at it backwards. Figure out how many people you can tax and charge them 20 to 30% of their income. Work out how much you spend on operating your kingdom (that should not excede your average incoming taxes). The difference between the taxes collected and the expenses is what you can afford to spend on the war. Your gold reserves will equal this difference x 10. Even if your kingdom is older, figure that some predecessor spent it on something. Wars were usually fought in summer or winter (mostly winter) because the supply of labor was not busy planting or harvesting. Okay this civilizationis slightly more advanced its not feudal. so what is the wage of a civil servant.
Planar Wanderer 05-30-05, 10:50 AM	BBEG to the good-aligned nations: " I will use my army of Golems to crush you! Unless you pay me..... 100.000 GP! :smirk: league of good-aligned nations: "hehehehe" Seneschal to BBEG: "Ehm sire might I remind you that those Golems cost us more than 1000.000 GP, and that we have exceeded our budget..." BBEG: "Oh.... I meant 100 million GP!" :smirk: league of good-aligned nations: "gasp!" Heh... since i'm working on a campaign to start a group new to RPing, would you object if I considered using LOGAN (league of good aligned nations) for that?
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 10:50 AM	AS it happens i once wondered about how the Economic system on D&D worked. I don't remember who posted this but it was a logical argument by me... So if you go with the Profession Craft system thats would mean 28 gp a month for a common Ditch Digger .. raises taxes to TWO GP!! sounds like I can tax them ten GP and they'll still be fine.
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 12:32 PM	hello any help. I still need to know how much money can be budgeted to the war effort and how much is in the coffers.
Thoronmir 05-30-05, 01:11 PM	Oops my mistake the progect is costing 8,800,000 gpI'd like to see your calculation on this. I've scoured the 3.5 MM and don't see a clear breakdown of what portion of the 80,000 gp cost represents the iron ore used to craft an Iron Golem. You need 5,000 pounds of "pure iron" and 10,000 gp worth of "rare tinctures and admixtures." Also, if we look to other Golems for guidance, the Stone Golem is most instructive (since it's the only Golem that actually gives a price for the raw material). Constructing a Stone Golem costs 50,000 gp. The description states that the body is "chiseled from a single block of hard stone ... and costs 5,000 gp." No other materials are specified. That leaves 45,000 gp in cost unaccounted for. So, even if you could obtain the stone for free, it would still cost 45,000 gp to make a Stone Golem. Applying the example of the Stone Golem to an Iron Golem, it's possible that the "Construction" description for the Iron Golem is missing a comma, and that the 10,000 gp represents the cost for all the raw materials needed, which would mean that, even with free iron ore, it would cost 70,000 gp to make an Iron Golem. Such a result is proportional to a Stone Golem (which costs a little less than half as much as an Iron Golem). As for labor expenses, the only labor you're saving is the labor to mine the ore since the construction rules do not assume that you're paying someone else to make your Golem ... there is no attendant "labor" expense built into the cost. If we look at the Flesh Golem, it costs 10,500 gp to make one. 500 gp represents the cost of "special ungents and bindings" that are required. If we assume that the remainder of the cost to construct represents the expense for the other raw materials, we're left with the unlikely result that it costs 10,000 gp to acquire pieces from six separate bodies. My conclusion is that the costs to build golems include components and materials not specifically listed in the construction descriptions, yet nevertheless required to craft golems.
Quenditar 05-30-05, 01:58 PM	Rather than slave labor, have you looked into commissioning a number of wondrous items that cast Wall of Iron once per day? I don't know much about how to calculate fixed vs. variable costs for items that don't wear out like those, but you'll be rid of the expense of feeding and housing the slaves, won't have to worry about depletion of the iron mines, and can use those slaves, if you keep them, on other projects. How are you going into debt - who has the money to lend you? Medieval monarchs, when they could go into debt, generally relied on rich private bankers who charged them high rates because of the risk of default. In Castile they had juros, apparently a type of perpetual, negotiable bond like a Consol at a rate of interest fixed by the king, but I don't know how common such institutions were in other countries.
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 02:25 PM	I'd like to see your calculation on this. I've scoured the 3.5 MM and don't see a clear breakdown of what portion of the 80,000 gp cost represents the iron ore used to craft an Iron Golem. You need 5,000 pounds of "pure iron" and 10,000 gp worth of "rare tinctures and admixtures." Also, if we look to other Golems for guidance, the Stone Golem is most instructive (since it's the only Golem that actually gives a price for the raw material). Constructing a Stone Golem costs 50,000 gp. The description states that the body is "chiseled from a single block of hard stone ... and costs 5,000 gp." No other materials are specified. That leaves 45,000 gp in cost unaccounted for. So, even if you could obtain the stone for free, it would still cost 45,000 gp to make a Stone Golem. Applying the example of the Stone Golem to an Iron Golem, it's possible that the "Construction" description for the Iron Golem is missing a comma, and that the 10,000 gp represents the cost for all the raw materials needed, which would mean that, even with free iron ore, it would cost 70,000 gp to make an Iron Golem. Such a result is proportional to a Stone Golem (which costs a little less than half as much as an Iron Golem). As for labor expenses, the only labor you're saving is the labor to mine the ore since the construction rules do not assume that you're paying someone else to make your Golem ... there is no attendant "labor" expense built into the cost. If we look at the Flesh Golem, it costs 10,500 gp to make one. 500 gp represents the cost of "special ungents and bindings" that are required. If we assume that the remainder of the cost to construct represents the expense for the other raw materials, we're left with the unlikely result that it costs 10,000 gp to acquire pieces from six separate bodies. My conclusion is that the costs to build golems include components and materials not specifically listed in the construction descriptions, yet nevertheless required to craft golems. I only took out the cost of the iron. 80,000 X 100 8,000,000 plus some extra costs for keeping the slaves in line.
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 02:26 PM	I'd like to see your calculation on this. I've scoured the 3.5 MM and don't see a clear breakdown of what portion of the 80,000 gp cost represents the iron ore used to craft an Iron Golem. You need 5,000 pounds of "pure iron" and 10,000 gp worth of "rare tinctures and admixtures." Also, if we look to other Golems for guidance, the Stone Golem is most instructive (since it's the only Golem that actually gives a price for the raw material). Constructing a Stone Golem costs 50,000 gp. The description states that the body is "chiseled from a single block of hard stone ... and costs 5,000 gp." No other materials are specified. That leaves 45,000 gp in cost unaccounted for. So, even if you could obtain the stone for free, it would still cost 45,000 gp to make a Stone Golem. Applying the example of the Stone Golem to an Iron Golem, it's possible that the "Construction" description for the Iron Golem is missing a comma, and that the 10,000 gp represents the cost for all the raw materials needed, which would mean that, even with free iron ore, it would cost 70,000 gp to make an Iron Golem. Such a result is proportional to a Stone Golem (which costs a little less than half as much as an Iron Golem). As for labor expenses, the only labor you're saving is the labor to mine the ore since the construction rules do not assume that you're paying someone else to make your Golem ... there is no attendant "labor" expense built into the cost. If we look at the Flesh Golem, it costs 10,500 gp to make one. 500 gp represents the cost of "special ungents and bindings" that are required. If we assume that the remainder of the cost to construct represents the expense for the other raw materials, we're left with the unlikely result that it costs 10,000 gp to acquire pieces from six separate bodies. My conclusion is that the costs to build golems include components and materials not specifically listed in the construction descriptions, yet nevertheless required to craft golems. I only took out the cost of the iron. 80,000 X 100 = 8,000,000 plus some extra costs for keeping the slaves in line.
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 02:27 PM	I already know the cost of the golems now I really need to know more about economics of things. How much money does it take to run a kingdom.
MasterRookie 05-30-05, 02:56 PM	Okay since aparently you all consider it a sin to tell me what I really desperatley need to know I'll try to figure this out on my own. If a ditch digger makes 28 gp a week then a tax collecter/civil would probably make about 56 since tax collecter/civil servant is a more lucrative job. So I'll say you need one tax collector for every 100 people. So thats 2600 by my campain worlds population. so I need to budged 7,592,000 a year to pay for them. There are also about 4,000 soldiers so thats another 11,680,000 if they get the same pay. Anual incom at a tax rate of 1gp a month brings in only 3,120,000, since each serf can clearly pay more then that I'll increase taxes to 10 gp a month. That gives the government 31,200,000 a year. so funds require 19,272,000 so there's a big surpluss.
braindead345 05-30-05, 04:39 PM	Okay since aparently you all consider it a sin to tell me what I really desperatley need to know I'll try to figure this out on my own. If a ditch digger makes 28 gp a week then a tax collecter/civil would probably make about 56 since tax collecter/civil servant is a more lucrative job. So I'll say you need one tax collector for every 100 people. So thats 2600 by my campain worlds population. so I need to budged 7,592,000 a year to pay for them. There are also about 4,000 soldiers so thats another 11,680,000 if they get the same pay. Anual incom at a tax rate of 1gp a month brings in only 3,120,000, since each serf can clearly pay more then that I'll increase taxes to 10 gp a month. That gives the government 31,200,000 a year. so funds require 19,272,000 so there's a big surpluss. Page 105 in the DMG has the answers. Scribes are paid 3 sp/day and clerks are paid 4 sp/day. Tax collectors probably make 7 sp/day, to keep them honest. The exchequer probably make no more than 2 gp/day. BTW your ditch digger would only make 1 sp/day (laborer). Spies are mercenaries and would be paid the same rate as mercenary leader, IMO. The same for any ambassadors, which are more or less spies. Figure that everybody works 6 days a week. This should greatly reduce your expenses. Of course you can alway adjust the pay, but that would have to be done across the board and the cost of your iron golems would also go up.
Cantankerous 05-30-05, 06:18 PM	I'm looking at the MM entry for Iron Golem (p. 136-137), which lists the cost to make an Iron Golem as 80,000 gp (plus 5,600 XP). Dragging my Mathematics Minor out of storage tells me that you could make 12.5 Iron Golems for 1 million gp. What am I missing in this calculation, because I can't get to 58 using these figures? Also, if I'm right, do 12 Golems constitute an "army"? EDIT: FOTD, I suppose he could use that .5 remainder to make a small Iron Golem ... "I shall call him Mini-Golem!" That's what I get for trying to answer by memory. I was thinking of the "make it yourself" price of the Manual of Iron Golems. Another pont, with the Iron Golem, the iron component needed is dirt cheap anyway. The 5,000 pounds of iron per golem would cost about 50gp per Golem, so the savings there, on the hundred golems you have planned, is only 5,000 gp. It's the rare tinctures and admixtures that cost the "at least 10,000 gp" per golem. The 5000 lbs of iron and even the cost of paying the experts making it (which since they have to be 16th+ level anyway, and there's a small army of them making these bloody toys, the Golems themselves become absolutely superfluous by comparison to their creators... who's combined might SHOULD logicly have made sushi of the mad king long ago) is nothing compared to the costs of the ritual ingredients, the costs of making the "lab" the golems are created in and so forth. With the savings of slave labor (which isn't any cheaper in reality...slavery is not cost effective) and not having to pay the Wizards for their time, amounts to almost no savings per Golem. The bloody things should still cost about 80,000 gp per Golem...meaning, as Thoronmir pointed out, just 12 .5 of the bloody things per million gp. I don't know why you'd be worried about making the costs reasonable though... nothing else about the scenario is. Those enslaved Magi should have the king by his short hairs in very short order. Isshia
Cantankerous 05-30-05, 06:21 PM	Okay since aparently you all consider it a sin to tell me what I really desperatley need to know I'll try to figure this out on my own. If a ditch digger makes 28 gp a week then a tax collecter/civil would probably make about 56 since tax collecter/civil servant is a more lucrative job. So I'll say you need one tax collector for every 100 people. So thats 2600 by my campain worlds population. so I need to budged 7,592,000 a year to pay for them. There are also about 4,000 soldiers so thats another 11,680,000 if they get the same pay. Anual incom at a tax rate of 1gp a month brings in only 3,120,000, since each serf can clearly pay more then that I'll increase taxes to 10 gp a month. That gives the government 31,200,000 a year. so funds require 19,272,000 so there's a big surpluss. A ditch digger making 28 gold a week? Yousa! Are you in for a mass migration. Everywhere else in D&D land the Ditch digger makes about THREE gp per MONTH! Isshia
shaga 05-30-05, 06:33 PM	I know this is not what you asked in your thread, by it should be. Please tell me how your BBEG enslaved a 16th LEVEL ARCANE CASTER!!! (Prerequisite for constructing an iron golem) Or how anyone defeated them and then liched their magic to create an iron golems?? Why would your BBEG need iron golems? They are expensive and if their master gets killed they could be hazardous. Plus if your BBEG is their master, he will have a lot of assassins on his head. Finally look what happened in Eberron they tried and it backed fire on them.
Sargon 05-30-05, 06:34 PM	Page 105 in the DMG has the answers. Scribes are paid 3 sp/day and clerks are paid 4 sp/day. Tax collectors probably make 7 sp/day, to keep them honest. The exchequer probably make no more than 2 gp/day. BTW your ditch digger would only make 1 sp/day (laborer). Spies are mercenaries and would be paid the same rate as mercenary leader, IMO. The same for any ambassadors, which are more or less spies. Figure that everybody works 6 days a week. This should greatly reduce your expenses. Of course you can alway adjust the pay, but that would have to be done across the board and the cost of your iron golems would also go up. Those dudes that are getting paid like a silver piece a day to dig ditches are getting jipped hard. if i where a 1st commoner i would put 4 skill points in proffesion ditch digger and with an avg roll of 10 thats a Profession ditch digging check of 14. Now the Profession and Craft skills say that a character can earn half his check in gold pieces per week. Thats 7gp a week or appx. 10 sp a day working 7 days a week 7 X 4 thats 28 gp a month or 336 gp a year. No you COULD go by the DMG laborer's get 1 sp a day.. that 7 sp a week or 2.8 gp a month... if i made 2.8 gp a month.. i quite my ditch diging job and become an adventure.. because they get all the cool stuff.
shaga 05-30-05, 07:12 PM	Now the Profession and Craft skills say that a character can earn half his check in gold pieces per week. thats for PC not NPC i quite my ditch diging job and become an adventure.. because they get all the cool stuff. Not if your abilities are all 10s witha one 12 if you where lucky
deadDMwalking 05-30-05, 07:19 PM	If he uses the "you can make 1/2 your check in gp each week" (which is for real "professions - of which ditch digging is not now) he would also have to use the rules for how long it takes to craft an iron golem. 90,000 gp in silver pieces. 900,000 in SP. Assuming a roll of 10 and the wizard maxed ranks on the skill (19) and an intelligence bonus of +6, they're getting a total of 35 each week. Let's put the DC at 10. Multiply the check by the DC - they've made 350 sp in progress each week. That means it will only take ~2571 1/2 weeks to craft 1 iron golem. The craft/profession skill is supposed to be used for skilled laborers, not unskilled laborers. Most people are unskilled. That's the way it is. Besides, even if you can make a check, you still have to have someone buying your product. If you have "craft: objects belonging in toilets" it doesn't matter if you get a 40 on your craft check. You got a really big pile of pooh, but it isn't worth 20 gp a week (unless the DM thinks people will pay that to take a gander...)
Sargon 05-30-05, 07:44 PM	NPC are not so diffrent than PC in the fact that they hav to work... What makes the PC so much more able to dig a ditch? And if i wrote out a first level commoner on a character sheet and i played him.. what makes the character able to dig better ditches because I roll a d20. NPC is Non Player Character... it does not mean "Not as good and less skilled Person because the dmg Claims that a labor gets 1sp perday unless the guy with the d20 rolls in which case i can get as many as 10 sp a day" My point is NPC's aren't sub standard and should have the same rules for making money as anyone else. And why isn't Ditch digging a proffesion.. I sappose building High Ways isn't a profession ethier, Go ask a high way worker to explain what he has to do everyday.. Besides stand around. What if the NPC's Start a Union and Strike against the PC's and demand equal pay for equal work... then what? I'm founding the Players Against Unfair Treatment of NPC's or PAUTN :confused:
ManinDarkness 05-30-05, 07:58 PM	My point is NPC's aren't sub standard and should have the same rules for making money as anyone else. And why isn't Ditch digging a proffesion.. I sappose building High Ways isn't a profession ethier, Go ask a high way worker to explain what he has to do everyday.. Besides stand around. What if the NPC's Start a Union and Strike against the PC's and demand equal pay for equal work... then what? That NPC has a Lord, to whom he pays taxes; he has (many) children to mantain, and they don't work or work poorly; the spouse probably is hosekeeping all-day; he might have not the best access to insumes; he probably has not a good market to sell his goods; he is probably ignorant as to how much does Sir Knightly would be willing to pay his products; he tithes his local church... I assume that those 1-2 sp are what is left after all this considerations, which is the money each person gets to spend, not earn.
deadDMwalking 05-30-05, 08:58 PM	The argument holds no water. PCs are supposed to be different than NPCs. Most NPCs are members of NPCs classes. Remember? It doesn't take any more XP to become a 1st level fighter than a 1st level warrior. Why doesn't every warrior take fighter levels instead? The reason is the PCs are supposed to be special. Now, let's talk about the craft skill. Generally, you pay 1/2 of the price for raw materials. Then you have to figure out where the other 1/2 goes. It goes to labor, for the most part. That way the simplified system works. Now, if you're a professional ditch digger, yes, you could earn 1/2 of your check in silver pieces each week. IF you can find an employer. A ditch doesn't require skilled labor. Thus, I can hire an unskilled laborer for 1 sp/day. You won't have a job because you're too expensive for the work you can do. Both the craft and profession skill make a point of saying that an unskilled laborer earns 1 sp/day. That is the basis for the economic system. A longsword (15 gp) is the equivalent of 150 days of work for someone. A MW longsword is the equivalent of 10 years of labor for an unskilled person. That is why not everyone is an adventurer. Now, the system has logical inconsistencies. Still, profession shouldn't cover ditch digging. It should cover "trained" activities like "accountant". Craft might be better for ditch digging, but not much so. Really, any action that can be performed by unskilled labor will be. Any action that requires trained laborers will involve skill checks. If you want to give ditch diggers 28 gp/month even though their employer earns 60 gp/month, fine. Go right ahead. It doesn't make sense, but you're free to do as you please. I won't worry about it. I might laugh, but that's it.
Sargon 05-30-05, 09:36 PM	So every adventureer is Fareun or Krynn or GreyHawk is some type of super human hercules or something? Well then the whole idea of D&D sappose to be historically accurate doesn't hold water.. people just aren't that bad *****. Not that anyone is trying ot hold water with an argument, that would be stupid... granted ditch digging doesn't require a lot of school, I'm still curious as to why NPC and PC have a totally diffrent type of Rule system.. And why doesn't the warrior go up a level in fighter and get that extra feat... I would. I guess that how i look at it.. If I where a warrior casing in my EXP tickets. I would take a level of Fighter instead of Warrior... you get alot more for the same price. And you look at it like.. My PC is a super bad ass who whoops everybody because he is special... and has flowers engraved on his sword. If you want to give ditch diggers 28 gp/month even though their employer earns 60 gp/month, fine. Go right ahead. It doesn't make sense, but you're free to do as you please. I won't worry about it. I might laugh, but that's it. And as far as this one goes Ditch Digging should really be left to the City and the City the city can afford to pay 28 a month to dig a moat around the City.. or di channels to drain water... Prehaps we have modernized the society of our Campaign setting. I understand Nobels of the Middle ages didn't care or have any idea about econmoic responisbilty, and the general welfare of your subject.
deadDMwalking 05-30-05, 10:06 PM	I'm saying that every PC is important. Not every NPC is. Quite a few of them are, but most of them are supposed to be background characters. And that is the way the system is designed. They need the help of the PCs. They're there to be interacted with. The system is designed with the PCs in mind. Maybe it shouldn't be, but that isn't the point of the argument. Rather, it is that a craft or profession check doesn't give you license to earn money out of the blue. It has to come from somewhere. Thus, you must actually attempt to perform a profession or craft that cannot be performed untrained. Make sense?
Cantankerous 05-31-05, 01:03 AM	D&D was never meant to be historicly accurate. It's supposed to represent a method to RP in the fantasy genre. PC's ARE supposed to be a BIG cut above the average. NPC's who can even take standard classes are supposed to be rare, yet even more rare is the PC who bothers to take any of the standard NPC classes, which are far lesser animals. Isshia
Sargon 05-31-05, 01:21 AM	No i'm sorry i just don't Buy it.. The idea that PC are Better than Average... just because. I mean often PC's parents where murdered by orcs.. and thats thier motivation to hunt orcs.. He's not super human his just ****** off. Even Fantasy has to have that realitiy factor... and the idea that all PC's are better than everyone else just doesn't fly with me... Like i said why would the warrior with 1000 not take fighter instead of Warrior again.. You get a extra feat.. If I where the warrior i'de take fighter. Not to mention that extra feat would make you a more effective city guard.. imagine town guards with power attack and cleave marching out in riot gear to settle a bunch of hoolagans after a gladiator fight gone bad.
Palin the Wizard 05-31-05, 01:31 AM	Sargon... NPCs are not the focus of the game. The PCs are. Accept it.
Sargon 05-31-05, 01:39 AM	Not to say PC's aren;t the focus of the game but its like i told one of my players once. The world (campaign Setting) is going to exist if your part of it or not, IF you don't do something about it another adventure group will... I'm not taking the Focus of the PC, i'm just saying NPC shouldn't be played stupidly.
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 09:53 AM	That's what I get for trying to answer by memory. I was thinking of the "make it yourself" price of the Manual of Iron Golems. Another pont, with the Iron Golem, the iron component needed is dirt cheap anyway. The 5,000 pounds of iron per golem would cost about 50gp per Golem, so the savings there, on the hundred golems you have planned, is only 5,000 gp. It's the rare tinctures and admixtures that cost the "at least 10,000 gp" per golem. The 5000 lbs of iron and even the cost of paying the experts making it (which since they have to be 16th+ level anyway, and there's a small army of them making these bloody toys, the Golems themselves become absolutely superfluous by comparison to their creators... who's combined might SHOULD logicly have made sushi of the mad king long ago) is nothing compared to the costs of the ritual ingredients, the costs of making the "lab" the golems are created in and so forth. With the savings of slave labor (which isn't any cheaper in reality...slavery is not cost effective) and not having to pay the Wizards for their time, amounts to almost no savings per Golem. The bloody things should still cost about 80,000 gp per Golem...meaning, as Thoronmir pointed out, just 12 .5 of the bloody things per million gp. I don't know why you'd be worried about making the costs reasonable though... nothing else about the scenario is. Those enslaved Magi should have the king by his short hairs in very short order. Isshia Not really. A lot of them are evil and getting fair pay for their work. The rest got brought in one by one. There's only 12 of them in the whole place. The rest are low level casters that are too weak from mana draining rituals (for powering the higher level mages) to fight or even stay awake for more then a few minutes. As I've said the cost of the whole progect is 8,800,000 gp for each batch.
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 09:55 AM	I know this is not what you asked in your thread, by it should be. Please tell me how your BBEG enslaved a 16th LEVEL ARCANE CASTER!!! (Prerequisite for constructing an iron golem) Or how anyone defeated them and then liched their magic to create an iron golems?? Why would your BBEG need iron golems? They are expensive and if their master gets killed they could be hazardous. Plus if your BBEG is their master, he will have a lot of assassins on his head. Finally look what happened in Eberron they tried and it backed fire on them. Simple my BBEG is an insane dictator who wants to take over the world. He'll delegate control to his general who's a level 16 fighter with 2 levels in wizard. If his general dies the golems will be ordered to carry out their last order until the next general arives.
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 10:03 AM	Please stop arguing about the rights of NPC's. I don't need to know that. In my campain a ditch digger makes 28 gp a week like that one guy says because is suits my purposes. If anyone has anything to say about ECONOMICS related to my original post please feel free to comment.
deadDMwalking 05-31-05, 12:50 PM	That is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Who pays the ditch digger 28 gp each week? If that is true, how much must he spend on food? It doesn't make any sense. The profession and craft skill both specificially mention that unskilled laborers get 1 sp/day. Most laborers are considered unskilled. Ditch diggers are a form of unskilled labor. Now, the DMG also has breakdowns on classes. There isn't any reason an NPC would choose to be a commoner. They might as well be a rogue or a fighter. They don't lose anything by doing so. Still, the rules of the game assume a default level. For your benefit I will quote some relevant sections from the DMG. The economic system in the D&D game is based on the silver piece (sp). A common laboerer earns 1 sp a day. That's just enough to allow his family to survive, assuming that this income is supplemented with food his family grows to eat, homemade clothing, and a reliance on self-sufficiency for most tasks (personal grooming, health, animal tending, and so on). In your campaign, however, the PCs will deal primarily with gold pieces. The gold piece (gp) is a larger, more substantial unit of currency. The main reason why PCs typically receive and spend gold pieces is that, as adventureres, they take much larger risks than common folk and earn much larger rewards if they survive. continued on 139-140 Now, if a ditchdigger makes 28 gp each week, you're going to have to multiply all other costs by a factor of 40. If he earns 40x more than a standard ditch-digger in a standard campaign, everything else gets more expensive also. This also means you have to ignore the information in the DMG on page 105 about hireling services. I don't get you MasterRookie. You make a game that your PCs can't win, and ask us to help you fix it. Instead of trying to fix it you keep making it worse by trying to "justify" your original storyline. I'm sorry the rules don't support your decision. I can guarantee that if I were your players I wouldn't put up with it. It has already caused me enough aggravation as an outside observer.
Cantankerous 05-31-05, 02:06 PM	This isn't a process of playing them stupidly. There really IS a major difference in the "qualitative intangibles" between a PC and an NPC. The sheople don't have the drive, the sheer terminity to believe they simply ARE better that the PC does have. That by itself is a huge and defining difference... far bigger an difference than stats are. The game itself is PURPOSEFULLY and completely openly GEARED in this direction. Everything about a PC is LUCKY breaks and the gods smiling on them. Good grief; this is what hit points are really all about. There's a reason why the PC Class: Fighter, is in almost every manner superior to the NPC class: Warrior. The game is geared to give the PC's HUGE and imbalancing advantages at every turn. It has to be with the scope of opponents the PC's are supposed to be capable of facing. An adult Black Dragon is more than capable of taking out the average village chock full of appropriately leveled NPC's, yet it would be an equitable match for a single 13th level PC. Isshia
Cantankerous 05-31-05, 02:09 PM	Rookie, you opened this thread by asking a question about "Ancient Economics". Now, because you don't like the answer the people who've taken the time to do so, correctly, should go bugger off? Isshia
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 02:38 PM	That is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Who pays the ditch digger 28 gp each week? If that is true, how much must he spend on food? It doesn't make any sense. The profession and craft skill both specificially mention that unskilled laborers get 1 sp/day. Most laborers are considered unskilled. Ditch diggers are a form of unskilled labor. Now, the DMG also has breakdowns on classes. There isn't any reason an NPC would choose to be a commoner. They might as well be a rogue or a fighter. They don't lose anything by doing so. Still, the rules of the game assume a default level. For your benefit I will quote some relevant sections from the DMG. Now, if a ditchdigger makes 28 gp each week, you're going to have to multiply all other costs by a factor of 40. If he earns 40x more than a standard ditch-digger in a standard campaign, everything else gets more expensive also. This also means you have to ignore the information in the DMG on page 105 about hireling services. I don't get you MasterRookie. You make a game that your PCs can't win, and ask us to help you fix it. Instead of trying to fix it you keep making it worse by trying to "justify" your original storyline. I'm sorry the rules don't support your decision. I can guarantee that if I were your players I wouldn't put up with it. It has already caused me enough aggravation as an outside observer. Whatever at any rate I can get enough money out of them to have a surplus that will eventually pay for the project.
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 02:40 PM	Rookie, you opened this thread by asking a question about "Ancient Economics". Now, because you don't like the answer the people who've taken the time to do so, correctly, should go bugger off? Isshia NO My problem is they're going on about how much a ditch digger makes. I don't care any more, I'll just stick with the rules and agree at this point. I need to know other stuff. If you guys are so intent on arguing this start a new "How Much do Ditch Diggers Make," thread.
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 02:41 PM	Page 105 in the DMG has the answers. Scribes are paid 3 sp/day and clerks are paid 4 sp/day. Tax collectors probably make 7 sp/day, to keep them honest. The exchequer probably make no more than 2 gp/day. BTW your ditch digger would only make 1 sp/day (laborer). Spies are mercenaries and would be paid the same rate as mercenary leader, IMO. The same for any ambassadors, which are more or less spies. Figure that everybody works 6 days a week. This should greatly reduce your expenses. Of course you can alway adjust the pay, but that would have to be done across the board and the cost of your iron golems would also go up. Okay what percentage of the population do each of these people make up. Assuming this is an advanced and rich kingdom.
Cantankerous 05-31-05, 02:47 PM	Rookie, the problem is that YOU are the one ignoring the rules. How much more clear can this be. A common laborer makes 1 sp per day. A ditch digger is about as common a laborer as you are going to find. If you had no intention of using the correct (by this I mean rules correct) information you were being given, but had known from the start that you were only going to make it up whole cloth and dump on the rules, why in the heck did you bring it to the DM's Board? Isshia
Cantankerous 05-31-05, 02:50 PM	According to most demographics, the common laborer (and or peasant) made up anywhere from 90 to 95% of the population base until the Rennaissance, when the numbers plunged to about 80 to 85% of the population in France (which for most of it's history was the wealthiest nation in Europe. Isshia
deadDMwalking 05-31-05, 02:52 PM	You have 260,000 people in your kingdom total? I do believe that is what you said. That means for every 100 (at 8,800,000 for each batch) means you need to generate 33 gp, 8 sp, and 5 cp per person in your empire. Using my original suggestion on your other thread, it isn't going to work. From the skilled workers, you could generate 20,340 gp per day. From the unskilled workers you can generate 4,068 gp per day. Your minimum cost is 13,560 each day. So, you net 10,848 gp each day assuming you have no standing army, no major projects, no defensive works, no palaces being built, no subsidies to development internal industries, etc. This works out to 2 1/4 years to generate the money to build 100 golems. This should be your absolute minimum figure. Then you need to actually see how long it takes to build the golems (using the craft skill, it would take a long time).
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 07:01 PM	Rookie, the problem is that YOU are the one ignoring the rules. How much more clear can this be. A common laborer makes 1 sp per day. A ditch digger is about as common a laborer as you are going to find. If you had no intention of using the correct (by this I mean rules correct) information you were being given, but had known from the start that you were only going to make it up whole cloth and dump on the rules, why in the heck did you bring it to the DM's Board? Isshia I am too using the rules. I stopped listening to that guy and changed their wages to be normal. The 28 was giving me a much too big surplus anyway. I still have enough to fund the progect for the first four months already stored in the nation's coffers.
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 07:09 PM	You have 260,000 people in your kingdom total? I do believe that is what you said. That means for every 100 (at 8,800,000 for each batch) means you need to generate 33 gp, 8 sp, and 5 cp per person in your empire. Using my original suggestion on your other thread, it isn't going to work. From the skilled workers, you could generate 20,340 gp per day. From the unskilled workers you can generate 4,068 gp per day. Your minimum cost is 13,560 each day. So, you net 10,848 gp each day assuming you have no standing army, no major projects, no defensive works, no palaces being built, no subsidies to development internal industries, etc. This works out to 2 1/4 years to generate the money to build 100 golems. This should be your absolute minimum figure. Then you need to actually see how long it takes to build the golems (using the craft skill, it would take a long time). Well this project has been under way for some time now. Only now are the golem's being brought to life. The progects been well underway for about a year now. How much does a Soldier make again 5 sp thats another 2,225 gp every day for my country leaving me with 8,623. O I've forgotten to factor in the dwarven provinces. What sort of aditional revenews would taxation on their exports bring in.
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 07:10 PM	wouldn't atleast 2 1/4 years of surpulse money already be in the nation's coffers.
deadDMwalking 05-31-05, 07:28 PM	It is very unlikely. Most kingdoms spend the money they have. No one keeps 10 years of surpluses. 2 1/4 years of surplus is also a lot. And remember, the surplus I listed is assuming no regular expenditures. The total surplus per year should end up being 100,000 gp each year.
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 07:35 PM	Okay what if the previous king brought on considerable prosperity. Could that put a lot of money in the coffers. How can the anual surplus be so much lower then the dayly, and by that I mean what budgets can be cut for the next two years. Building upkeep isn't very urgent. I don't have any new roads to build. What programs are absolutely necessary. And what about dwarf mines. If the king claim's 10% of their export profit how much can I expect to make off of them.
Cathon 05-31-05, 08:14 PM	On the economic end of things, most Kings have their own lands who's profits are entirely dedicated to him. In addition he may own the kingdom's mines outright, paying companies a percentage of profits to run them for him (and of course auditing them heavily). A common medieval tax was the salt tax. Since salt was the primary food preservative, everybody needed salt, and the supply was fairly easy to control and tax. (Income tax is very difficult to do, note that in modern democracies you figure out your own income tax or pay someone to do it. With the level of tax fraud and the amount of literacy in medieval times this would be impossible.) The closest thing was a poll tax, which was a flat per household tax payable when the tax collector came. One quick note for BBEG economics and magic items. I believe there are rules in the Book of Vile Darkness for using souls to defray xp cost in item manufacture. It might be much easier to get your wizards to build Iron Golems if someone else is paying the price for it. Some evil ways of making money as a ruler. Confiscating the property of "enemies of the state" and selling them to the highest bidder. (Said enemy can be used to mine iron or have his soul extracted) Ask prominent citizens to contribute to the war effort (or face becoming an enemy of the state). Sell your surplus population. Increase the fines on all activities that hurt the state, and place a quota on your police departments for fine collection. Use your armies to aid in tax collection.
MasterRookie 05-31-05, 08:19 PM	On the economic end of things, most Kings have their own lands who's profits are entirely dedicated to him. In addition he may own the kingdom's mines outright, paying companies a percentage of profits to run them for him (and of course auditing them heavily). A common medieval tax was the salt tax. Since salt was the primary food preservative, everybody needed salt, and the supply was fairly easy to control and tax. (Income tax is very difficult to do, note that in modern democracies you figure out your own income tax or pay someone to do it. With the level of tax fraud and the amount of literacy in medieval times this would be impossible.) The closest thing was a poll tax, which was a flat per household tax payable when the tax collector came. One quick note for BBEG economics and magic items. I believe there are rules in the Book of Vile Darkness for using souls to defray xp cost in item manufacture. It might be much easier to get your wizards to build Iron Golems if someone else is paying the price for it. Some evil ways of making money as a ruler. Confiscating the property of "enemies of the state" and selling them to the highest bidder. (Said enemy can be used to mine iron or have his soul extracted) Ask prominent citizens to contribute to the war effort (or face becoming an enemy of the state). Sell your surplus population. Increase the fines on all activities that hurt the state, and place a quota on your police departments for fine collection. Use your armies to aid in tax collection. Sounds good. I've got rings that can transfer XP and personal energy from low level casters into the high. It makes up for XP loss and provides them will increased speed and longer work periods. Granted if the stop getting it they could die or go comatos but the BBEG isn't going to tell them that.
braindead345 05-31-05, 10:50 PM	And what about dwarf mines. If the king claim's 10% of their export profit how much can I expect to make off of them. That depends on the mines. Are they successfully mining operations or are they just exploring for resouces? What are they mining? Gold and gem mines will mean more tax $ but in much smaller yields. Iron and coal will be more abundant yields but not worth as much. Figure that each month the mines are producing an average of 5 gp worth of minerals per miner to the king. The number of miners is equal to 1/5 the dwarven population (the rest are food producers, defense, support economy, administrators, women, and children).
braindead345 05-31-05, 11:14 PM	granted ditch digging doesn't require a lot of school, I'm still curious as to why NPC and PC have a totally diffrent type of Rule system.. And why doesn't the warrior go up a level in fighter and get that extra feat... I would. I guess that how i look at it.. If I where a warrior casing in my EXP tickets. I would take a level of Fighter instead of Warrior... you get alot more for the same price. And as far as this one goes Ditch Digging should really be left to the City and the City the city can afford to pay 28 a month to dig a moat around the City.. or di channels to drain water... Prehaps we have modernized the society of our Campaign setting. I understand Nobels of the Middle ages didn't care or have any idea about econmoic responisbilty, and the general welfare of your subject. While I can see where you are coming from, there are a few factors you forgot about. First off the DMG says this is an average of pay. Ditch diggers usually did not dig ditches in winter or in rain. Just like road crews in my part of the country. Therefor, we can assume that the ditch digger made lots of money durring a short time, but had to stretch it to last the entire year. They probably made money on days they couldn't dig doing other things. Also, who is going to pay that much for a ditch? Think about it this way-If you have 10 ranks in Craft (cooking) is McDonald's going to pay you more for flipping burgers? Not when they can get a high school kid (zero to one rank) who will flip burgers for minimum wage. If you want to continue this let's start a new thread.