Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MrDarkson 01-28-07, 01:54 PM	My friends and I were discussing the possibility of creating a campaign based on the political intrigue of ancient Rome. The story centers around a republic on the verge of collapse, having become too large to effectively control, much like the Roman republic. The government is modeled directly after the ancient Roman senatorial system. It would involve little or no magic and use humans almost exclusively. Sessions may pass with little or no combat, and if there is combat, it could be absolutely enormous in scale (a mass battle) or involve an assassin quietly stabbing a guy in his sleep. I'm not sure who exactly the PC's should be, whether relatively minor characters who have influence over the course of major events or major characters with a great deal of political power. If they are minor characters, they might be assassins, soldiers, body guards, advisors, and the like. Conversely, if they are powerful major players they might be generals, high ranking politicians, or people like that. I don't know which would be the best for the richest role-playing experience. We even discussed the possibility of having one player control multiple characters, namely the entire senate. He would control the various factions of like-minded senators as well as some major politicians who may step on and off the stage as they are needed. So, this player is sort of a toned-down second DM to take some of the weight of controlling the massive amount of NPC's in this campaign. Any suggestions or ideas to make this work before I kill myself with world creation, writing tons of character sheets, and all the other preparation that a DM must do?
Damren 01-28-07, 02:25 PM	Have you seen the HBO series Rome (warning, adult content)? It might offer you some ideas. The first season is out on DVD. There was also; Item Code: #9425 (HR5) Title: The Glory of Rome Campaign Sourcebook Type: Accessory Published: 1993 Format: 96-page perfect-bound book w/fold-out map "It is heaven's will that my Rome shall be capital of the world" One-thousand years of history are woven around the story of Rome. With this AD&D game supplement, PCs can stand fast before a mass of charging Gauls with Julius Caesar, vie for the emperor's attention in the coliseum, bellow oratory in the senate, or dispense the pax romana to the ends of the earth in the name of emperor Hadrian. The Glory of Rome describes Roman character kits, magic, equipment, culture, and settings for exciting role-playing in Earth's past or in a Roman-style realm in any gaming world. Experience the grandeur that was Rome! You might be able to find it on a used game shelf or digitally on-line. It could offer you some ideas as to plotlines and other options. All-in-all, it's not a bad idea if your players are the more thinking/plot type. Such a game could go in literally any direction. Gladiator's 'General' ended up a slave and then came back to save Rome. If anything, I would start with detailed backgrounds and a pivital event to mix up things. Say a visiting noble from a younger, rival kingdom seeking trade rights at the empires ports (but also spying) - an unexpected assassination (say all the seers of the oracle) or a botched coup attempt that now has the senate hunting for traitors, real & imagined. You could also re-watch Gladiator if you haven't seen it in a while for additional inspiration.
gypsie_joker 01-28-07, 02:29 PM	Have you considered incorporating gladiatorial battles into your campaign? This may be a completely different tangent than you might be going for, but it could offer more chances for combat or politics within the game. The Colosseum was a center for social activities where the characters could be involved in both politicking in the crowd or actual combat in the arena. Several Roman emperors partook in the arena events. Is this Romanesque world going to be ruled by an Emperor and a Senate? If you have a Dictator, maybe he could be going insane--like Caligula--and the politician PCs are directly effected by his lascivious affairs and public displays of meglomania.
Dei 01-28-07, 02:30 PM	My suggestion would be to make the PCs either mercenaries or agents within the city. They're known for being of a certain... "morally flexible" character who will respond well to the glint of gems and the clink of coin. One or the other of the factions hires them to do some minor fetch and carry of messages and similar and so sucks them into the murky maelstrom of politics. I would suggest keeping the actual workings of the senate fairly simple. On large, empire affecting issues the senate of Rome almost exclusively stayed united. Though there were countless small issues causing splits and quarrels all over the place on issues such as Julius Ceasar versus ... whatever the other consul's name was the senate were almost always of one mind with dissenters either keeping quite or removed in dirty little deeds such as those carried out by your PCs. Of course as soon as Julius Ceasar won the most outspoken of his critics suddenly shut up very tight and hoped no one remembered who they were while his supporters stood to the fore and swayed the undecided majority to them. Perhaps the setting is something similar to that. Three or four of the Republic's generals have all decided they'd do a better job than the senate or any of their rivals and so are marching around the countryside beating eachother up. Meanwhile the senate is going mad, it controls only about a fifth of the republic's armed forces and they aren't the hard, grim veterans that the general's command and so are desperately trying to figure out a way of either undermining or pacifying the generals without open war which would bring disaster to the Republic as a whole. A party of rogues, rangers and fighters known for being discreet and thorough being sent out to gather intelligence, intercept messages or simply "remove" an obstacle could have a great deal of fun in such a campaign.
Sir_Wolfgar 01-28-07, 04:54 PM	You will probaly need a very detailed equipment list, as there wasn't a large variety of combat equipment during that time period. Armor consisted of leather, breastplates, and chainmail, and that's about all thats stated in the core rules. Also, your average roman soldier was armed with a Pilum (javelin) and a Gladius (shortsword), not a greatsword. Look at Arms and Equipment for a good list on what was available. Of course, the foriegn mercenaries had a wide range of equipment, and could add a neat flavor to the game.
krichaiushii 01-28-07, 05:04 PM	IF you are going for more roleplaying, steal a mechanic from Ars Magica and have each player control numerous PCs - senators, guards, mercs, assassins, whatever. This way, they have appropriate PCs for whatever the adventure requires. Each PC stable is related to one main powerful PC, while the others act as his agents and their actions bring (dis)honor to his name. You might look at Atlas Games' Dynasties and Demagogues (http://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG3220.php) as well as Eternal Rome (http://www.greenronin.com/catalog/grr1410) from Green Ronin. These both provide 3.x rulesets and idea fodder. GURPS Worldbooks might even make for good idea fodder. Imperial Rome (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/ImperialRome/) is the one for you.
zama202 01-28-07, 09:53 PM	Sounds fun. One thing that I have done on occasion is to take a boardgame and use that as the rules engine for politics, economics, and battles and weave that into the RPG. Some people don't like that and prefer total freeform. My issue with freeform is it puts too much work on the GM and often puts too much trust in his/her subjective judgement. I haven't tried this with Republic of Rome, but that boardgame could very well work for what you have in mind. It's OOP but you can view the rules here (http://67.66.187.69/ror/index.htm) and the gameboard here (http://www.amarriner.com/ror/board.png). If you haven't heard of this game, here's my summary: The game takes place during the Roman Republic with each player controlling a different political faction in the Senate. Every player is jockeying for power, wealth, and influence to become the leading man of Rome. However, the State itself is constantly facing challenges - wars, famines, plebian discontent, etc. The game itself is trying to beat the players. If they can't set aside their ambitions enough to address the crucial matters of state, then everyone loses - the pleb mobs toss the Senate off the Tarpeian Rock, Hannibal takes Rome, or whatnot. But if players aren't cutthroat enough, then someone will amass so much power (political or militarily) that they can seize control (assassins are handy in these case but beware if the man is beloved by the people). I'd love to take this game and use it as the backdrop for an RPG. Use the boardgame for massed battles, plot generation, and the logistics of Roman politics (e.g. how does one get elected Censor, what exactly are the responsibilities of such, and what is an abstract measure of the position's influence/prestige). The RPG does the rest and feeds back into the boardgame. The players can all be part of the same faction, or, if you can handle some intra-party tension, different factions. And they'd each get to control multiple senators, equites, etc. Dang, now I totally wanna do this. You don't live in San Francisco do you? :P
Ramses III 01-28-07, 10:02 PM	The rules framework of D&D isn't well set up for low-combat, high-intrigue games where you live and die by your wits and diplomatic skills. Believe me, I tried to run one and it was like trying to roller skate in a gravel pit. I would either suggest that you adapt another game system that has a more in-depth social rules structure, or build an extensive set of house rules for the use of social skills and influence (for example include feats and/or class abilities that offer new uses of intimidate, sense motive, diplomacy, gather information, etc. as well as some kind of mechanical index of influence and reputation). PM me if you want suggestions of other game systems that could adapt well to your game and setting.
theotherdraxen 01-28-07, 10:10 PM	Dang, now I totally wanna do this. You don't live in San Francisco do you? :P Or New Hampshire? I've done a serious amount of work creating a number of things for a Roman Campaign of mine that fell through. I've got a bunch of rules rigged up to support many aspects of this. My creation the Dragoon (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=714151) can simulate both the Legionary and the Hoplite, although your players might prefer a Warblade from ToB since the Dragoon is balanced in accordance with the Barbarian and not ToB scale classes. I've also got a mass-template for combat that's a little more detailed than the one in Redgar's Repository. The system is still a little clunky, but it works nicely and does make for a memorable encounter, especially once the PCs get a chance to lead them in battle or slay them like Greek Heroes.
krichaiushii 01-28-07, 10:48 PM	Believe me, I tried to run one and it was like trying to roller skate in a gravel pit. I just want to compliment this simile. Very nice imagery.
danielinthewolvesden 01-29-07, 01:52 AM	I want to point out that the Romans beleived in magic, very much. Esp Divination, Curses and Prayers. You have really two choices- a political campaign where at least one, if not all the the PC's are on the Cursus Honorium, or a Gang campaign.
BW0222 01-29-07, 03:54 AM	MrDarkson, You might wish to look at the Arcanis setting by Paradign. It's based on a Roman-inspired empire which survived until the middle-ages.
a_psh 01-29-07, 07:57 AM	Don't use D&D/D20 for this. If you do, it is likely to suck.
MrDarkson 01-29-07, 05:36 PM	I'm glad to see that there are people who are enthusiastic about doing this sort of thing and willing to offer some advice. I appreciate it. Dang, now I totally wanna do this. You don't live in San Francisco do you? Or New Hampshire? No, sorry. I live in New York... Have you seen the HBO series Rome (warning, adult content)? It might offer you some ideas. The first season is out on DVD. One of the players of this campaign happens to own the first season on DVD, but I personally haven't ever seen it. Perhaps I should take the time and watch it. Item Code: #9425 (HR5) Title: The Glory of Rome Campaign Sourcebook Type: Accessory Published: 1993 Format: 96-page perfect-bound book w/fold-out map AD&D? This could be a bit of a problem, seeing as how I've only playedv3.5... I see if I can find it though. Thanks. Don't use D&D/D20 for this. If you do, it is likely to suck. The rules framework of D&D isn't well set up for low-combat, high-intrigue games where you live and die by your wits and diplomatic skills. I can see why you would say this, but the only system I've ever played was the d20 system. Call me narrow-minded if you want; I'd like to avoid learning a new system if I can. One of my players is relatively new to the game, and while he enjoys combat and rolling dice and all that, he really wants to get into deep plot like this. I'd like to encourage this style of play, and I definitely don't want to force players to learn a new system. So if at all possible, I want to keep this within the D&D rules, even if I'm going to have to modify the crap out of them. At least I'll have a familiar starting point then. IF you are going for more roleplaying, steal a mechanic from Ars Magica and have each player control numerous PCs - senators, guards, mercs, assassins, whatever. Could you explain this a bit more or point me in the right direction to find out more myself. I'm not familiar with Ars Magica. My suggestion would be to make the PCs either mercenaries or agents within the city. They're known for being of a certain... "morally flexible" character who will respond well to the glint of gems and the clink of coin. One or the other of the factions hires them to do some minor fetch and carry of messages and similar and so sucks them into the murky maelstrom of politics. This could be a good way to start. Thanks much. I'd like the PC's to be able to have a lot of influence over the way the republic falls, if it falls. I'd also like it if the PC's themselves could rise to power, but everybody's got to start somewhere. Now, I'd love for the players to be crafty and cunning and slimy enough to weasel their way into power as dictator or emperor or whatever, but then I have another problem: what happens if the players want to turn on each other? This is a strong possibility given the setting. How, as DM, do I deal with this kind of thing? Has anyone done this before? If so, I'm all ears for advice. Further, what if I want, say, an NPC to influence a PC into turning on another PC. This might be a highly stupid idea, but it could make for some seriously interesting role-playing. Who can you trust if you can't trust the other PC's? I like this idea...as long as we don't get too carried away.
Tiberia 01-29-07, 08:54 PM	Sounds fun. One thing that I have done on occasion is to take a boardgame and use that as the rules engine for politics, economics, and battles and weave that into the RPG. Some people don't like that and prefer total freeform. My issue with freeform is it puts too much work on the GM and often puts too much trust in his/her subjective judgement. I haven't tried this with Republic of Rome, but that boardgame could very well work for what you have in mind. It's OOP but you can view the rules here (http://67.66.187.69/ror/index.htm) and the gameboard here (http://www.amarriner.com/ror/board.png). If you haven't heard of this game, here's my summary: The game takes place during the Roman Republic with each player controlling a different political faction in the Senate. Every player is jockeying for power, wealth, and influence to become the leading man of Rome. However, the State itself is constantly facing challenges - wars, famines, plebian discontent, etc. The game itself is trying to beat the players. If they can't set aside their ambitions enough to address the crucial matters of state, then everyone loses - the pleb mobs toss the Senate off the Tarpeian Rock, Hannibal takes Rome, or whatnot. But if players aren't cutthroat enough, then someone will amass so much power (political or militarily) that they can seize control (assassins are handy in these case but beware if the man is beloved by the people). I'd love to take this game and use it as the backdrop for an RPG. Use the boardgame for massed battles, plot generation, and the logistics of Roman politics (e.g. how does one get elected Censor, what exactly are the responsibilities of such, and what is an abstract measure of the position's influence/prestige). The RPG does the rest and feeds back into the boardgame. The players can all be part of the same faction, or, if you can handle some intra-party tension, different factions. And they'd each get to control multiple senators, equites, etc. Dang, now I totally wanna do this. You don't live in San Francisco do you? :P Republic of Rome is an excellent game. Colleen MacCullough wrote historic fiction about the Roman Republic "First Man in Rome", "Grass Crown", Fortune's Favourite", "Caesar's Women" these bring the Constitution to life. I recommend they spend the first session playing the board game as Senators and the next session as assassins, spies, astrologers working for those Senators. Roman legionary armour had bare arms and legs so probably counts as medium armour. Roman pricipal coin was the Denarius weighing 1/7th ounce and worth 10 copper ases. (D&D standard silver piece is 1/3 ounce)
Mock26 01-29-07, 09:07 PM	On a related side note, you should try and find a copy of the game FVLMINATA (Fulminata), which is a pretty cool role-playing game that deals with an alternate world where the Romans developed gun powder. It's got some great insight into the Roman world, as well as some great insight into some fantasy develops in an ancient Roman world. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
Rabscuttle 01-29-07, 09:53 PM	Last year I read Rubicon: The Last Years of the Roman Republic. I was so impressed with the Romans and their nasty dealings that I based my current campaign on the Roman world. However, instead of going whole-heartedly into a Roman simulation I've kept everything D&D based and used the Roman world as an easy way to generate my campaign world. Because of the highly organized and bloody-minded nature of the Romans I've modelled them as a Lawful Evil Hobgoblin Empire dominating most of the Mediterrranean. Your plan looks pretty ambitious - definately more work than I'm willing to put in - and sounds like it would be very interesting to play out. I would recommend reading Rubicon as it deals a lot with Roman social attitudes and even more with the political manouvering of Julius Ceasar and his contemporaries.
Mock26 01-29-07, 10:19 PM	One of my favorite campaigns of all time was a full blown D&D campaign (with magic and orcs and dragons and elves and everything else) that took place on earth during the times of the romans. The DM put a severe limit on the types of weapons and some equipment and castles and such available to correspond with the technology of the time (and it was kind of cool to think of orcs using pilums). Most of the campaign was an underdark campaign, but it was quite fun. Take care and have a great day.... ciao, john.
The Heretic 01-29-07, 10:21 PM	I didn't take the time to read this entire thread, but I would recommend reading A History of Private Life: Pagan Rome to Byzantium http://www.amazon.com/History-Private-Pagan-Rome-Byzantium/dp/0674399749
MrDarkson 01-30-07, 04:51 PM	Thanks for all the advice and comments. The setting will be much more solid with good research, so I appreciate all the books and references you've all offered. The aforementioned question still stands: how do I deal with PC's turning on each other? I've never been the DM for anything like that, so I could use a few pointers. Any plans would be their own, but although I'd like to encourage this kind of role-playing, I'd also like to avoid having to repeatedly take players aside and discuss what their characters are doing on their own. If I have to, I will though. Has anyone ever had a PC turn into an enemy of other PC's? If so, how did you handle it?
Ramses III 01-30-07, 06:29 PM	I ran a short L5R campaign wherein the PCs were all from different clans and working toward conflicting goals. There was a lot of note-passing in that game, as the players often didn't want each other to know what their characters were doing. If you run a game where the players are all pursuing conflicting goals, expect them to butt heads, keep secrets, and occasionally try to kill each other's PC. If this is the case, then you need to provide the player a way to come back in with another character -- not a problem if you go with a previous poster's suggestion that each player represent a patron and have multiple characters who follow the patron. If you're trying to have the players work together as a party, opposition and PKs are really disruptive to the game and should be avoided. Intraparty conflict can be fun, as long as it isn't a situation where the PCs are working toward goals that are at odds and aren't openly hostile to one another. Once you go down that road it's hard to salvage a campaign.
zama202 01-31-07, 01:29 AM	In a good game like this, there should be tension, but not all-out conflict. It's difficult for a GM to adjudicate full-blown conflict between players. I can think of a couple tips: 1) balance a need for cooperation (otherwise the plebs will revolt, the gauls will sack the city, etc.) with ambition. 2) have the PCs represent aligned factions working against one or more other factions. 3) only recommended for certain groups: create game mechanics for certain ambiguous concepts. e.g. Flavius has an Influence of 7 with the mercantile class, a 5 with the plebs, but only a 3 among the Senate and the army. Have those metrics mean something mechanically. For some players, this really helps them visualize the results of their actions. 4) be frank with the players about the setting and the type of game you want. I personally don't like intra-party conflict so I'd say that up front: don't make PCs that are going to try and kill each other. Tension = good, PvP = bad. 5) Logistically, there will be a fair amount of note-passing and whatnot. A couple tricks that I use are: have lots of 3x5 note cards and pencils handy, make sure the PCs always write relevant skill bonuses down on notes they pass you, have a list of pre-rolled d20s on hand so that when someone passes you a note with a secret action you don't give away the fact that they just used a skill by rolling, and try and get as much of the PC planning/plotting done via email beforehand - clever PCs can make it very hard for a GM to think on his feet.
danielinthewolvesden 01-31-07, 02:18 AM	Try the SPQR series of Roman mysteries by John Maddox Roberts, who has also written books for WotC.
Ltlconf 01-31-07, 02:54 AM	Hello Folks, MrDarkson, having ran a Roman campaign ten years ago, I ran into many of the problems you're worried about and this is how I handled them. 1) Dispensed with alignments. Fact is the D&D alignment system is based off of 20th century morality and in no way fit into pre-Christian thought. EVERY pre-modern culture for that matter! All had some meaure of brutal blood sports, slavery, love of war, accepted "corruption" (by our standards) and a moral outlook that would curl the hair of Tony Soprano. The HBO series Rome holds nothing back and exagerates NOTHING and is in fact VERY accurate. And the Romans were better than most: You at least had rights as a citizen no one could take away (Athenians could do just that) unless you commited a criminal offense! 2) Nothing like mutual survival to keep a group together. Forgiveness was a luxery few could afford in the Roman world, Julius Ceaser tried it and it got him killed and all thought he deserved it for being such a naive fool. Once an enemy is made he's an enemy for life and all bets are off. The enemy of your patron is now as well your enemy, completely. The Enemy come for you all: your extended family, wife and kids, slaves, and pets. He'll come for you, and its VERY easy. The city was always one step from anarchy with little central law enforcement and no investigation. If no one charged your murderer formally (and then personally brought you in) nothing was done. A.E. no active witness, no crime. So assassination is as simple as a gang ambushing you in the street. With only 3500 police in a city of 1 million this was EASY. If the characters don't band together they'll fall seperately. Even if peace is made, it's only a truce and as soon as things turn, it's back to war make no mistake. 3) The D&D system has always been a problematic system for non-combat oriented games, though the 3rd ed improves this somewhat. However it does promote a certain "style" of anime violence due to its focus on combat feats ect. However this is not insurmountable. I suggest looking at several OGL (Open Gaming License) products such as True20 (not my favorite but good) and "A Game of Thrones" as well as the other gaming books suggest ed here. The Mongoose Games products of "Conan" and "Ancients" are both good for some nasty combat rules (to make street fights in the dark truly scary), good classes (the oracle for example), a more suitable series of magic systems to choose from (based on what people thought magic was), and full range of ancient weapons and armor (far more complex and in variety than many think). 4) Read everything you can, and now you can also watch Rome and the various History Channel series on Rome. The episodes on Roman law enforcement, legal system, infrastructure (aqueducts and sewers) and government are vital, as are the episodes on social life and gladiators. One thing to note is that a Political Campaign and Gangster Campaign will likely overlap as the politicians will use gangs to gain power and vice versa. Republican Rome was like Las Vegas, '20s Chicago, modern Mexico City, and the worst 3rd World hell-hole all combined with all the corruption and violence (and decadence) of it all. Its a hard thing to wrap ones head around truly. For fantasy fiction I suggest the original Thieves Worldanthologies and the Black Company series. The former for it's honest potrayal of city life in the ancient world, from the palace to the worst slums. Also a brutal look at morality at all levels that destroys any "working class purity" illusions. The latter series is medieval in technology but ancient in every other way and shows military life in intimate detail, and miltary morality which actually is the closest thing to a positive modern morality! In the end have some real fun with it.
graddlin 01-31-07, 04:39 AM	Republic of Rome is an excellent game. Colleen MacCullough wrote historic fiction about the Roman Republic "First Man in Rome", "Grass Crown", Fortune's Favourite", "Caesar's Women" these bring the Constitution to life. I recommend they spend the first session playing the board game as Senators and the next session as assassins, spies, astrologers working for those Senators. Roman legionary armour had bare arms and legs so probably counts as medium armour. Roman pricipal coin was the Denarius weighing 1/7th ounce and worth 10 copper ases. (D&D standard silver piece is 1/3 ounce) Indeed. These are very good books and surely a good source of inspiration for such a setting.
HerbalTea 01-31-07, 04:46 AM	If you want Romans, you have to have some Gauls, along with an incredibly strong obese man with white and blue stripey pants who carries a small white dog around with him. note - I haven't suddenly become insane, I am referring to Asterix and Obelix :D
Morits 02-04-07, 07:08 PM	Hello Folks, 2) Nothing like mutual survival to keep a group together. Forgiveness was a luxery few could afford in the Roman world, Julius Ceaser tried it and it got him killed and all thought he deserved it for being such a naive fool. Once an enemy is made he's an enemy for life and all bets are off. The enemy of your patron is now as well your enemy, completely. The Enemy come for you all: your extended family, wife and kids, slaves, and pets. He'll come for you, and its VERY easy. The city was always one step from anarchy with little central law enforcement and no investigation. If no one charged your murderer formally (and then personally brought you in) nothing was done. A.E. no active witness, no crime. So assassination is as simple as a gang ambushing you in the street. With only 3500 police in a city of 1 million this was EASY. If the characters don't band together they'll fall seperately. Even if peace is made, it's only a truce and as soon as things turn, it's back to war make no mistake. In the end have some real fun with it. Agreed, Gaius Julius did indeed get shafted by not slaughtering his enemies, but his nephew Octavian Augustus built his whole Principate by applying his uncle's doctrines successfully. Augustus married Livia, widow of Tiberius the Republican and organized the State as an actual tyranny but with Republcan forms and procedures. So many subsequent Emperors copied this winning formula of hypocrisy that over 400 years of Empire, only Caligula, Nero, Elagabalus and Commodus have the reputation of tyrants.
MrDarkson 02-10-07, 05:36 PM	Thanks for the advice, guys! I really appreciate it!