Post/Author/DateTime	Post
E_Vernon 06-13-07, 04:58 PM	Seems a bit lame, I'd say. Wizard in melee, step back five feet, cast a spell. Warrior moves closer, strikes. Take a five foot step, cast a spell. Ha. 5-foot step for anyone seems lame, really.
Kragg Bonemeal 06-13-07, 05:02 PM	Oh boy... not another of these threads. "5' Step, Shoot Arrow is lame", "5' Step drink potion is lame", etc, etc. It is a game mechanic trying to represent the "flow of battle". If you are a Fighter and get up close to a wizard, you either kill them first shot or Trip them. Simple. No 5' Step anymore. Within 2 or 3 hacks the wizzie should be dead.
kentonblack 06-13-07, 05:02 PM	well said. argument over
Inigo Carmine 06-13-07, 05:37 PM	If you are a Fighter and get up close to a wizard, you either kill them first shot or Trip them. Simple. No 5' Step anymore. Within 2 or 3 hacks the wizzie should be dead. I prefer grappling myself. A prone wizard has no problems casting spells, they are just easier to hit in melee and have a penalty to attack rolls. A grappled one is usually all but worthless.
Salla 06-13-07, 06:04 PM	Even if you couldn't 5' step for some reason, there's always Casting Defensively.
Wizard Random 06-13-07, 06:09 PM	Even if you couldn't 5' step for some reason, there's always Casting Defensively. Or Sheilded Casting
BW0222 06-13-07, 06:53 PM	E_Vernon, Seems a bit lame, I'd say. Wizard in melee, step back five feet, cast a spell. Warrior moves closer, strikes. Take a five foot step, cast a spell. It is lame, the fighter that is. After the first time the wizard did that, any fighter with half a brain is going to either: a) Grapple the wizard. b) Trip the wizard. c) Ready an action to attack the wizard casts a spell. The wizard takes a 5' step and starts casting... your readied action goes off and you 5' step and attack him -- while casting. d) Ready an action to grapple or trip the wizard when he casts. 5' stepping if necessary. e) Ready an action to move when the wizard stops moving. Wizard moves say 25' back (provoking an AoO for leaving a threatened square) to try avoiding you repeating to take 5' steps and hitting him, and you end up next to him when he stops to cast anyway. e) Toss alchemists fire on him. f) Take out a hand-axe or dagger and ready an action to attack the wizard if he casts a spell. If he moves more than 5' you take an AoO, etc., etc.
Necrosis 06-13-07, 07:47 PM	note on readying-its obvious what you are planning and enemeys will react so. Some exceptions-particually alien or unusal anatmeys are harder to read as are supernatural abilities.
KillerVole 06-13-07, 08:04 PM	Just get someone on each side of the wizard, like this: FWF where Fs are fighters and W is the wizard. Then, no matter where he five foot steps to, someone threatens him.
Vaelan 06-13-07, 10:51 PM	Just get someone on each side of the wizard, like this: FWF where Fs are fighters and W is the wizard. Then, no matter where he five foot steps to, someone threatens him. Then give them both Mage Slayer so that the Wizard can't cast defensively and tripping weapons or the Stand Still feat so that the Wizard can't run away.
danielinthewolvesden 06-13-07, 11:37 PM	Reach Weapon. 'nuff said.
Someone 06-14-07, 01:04 AM	Well, when the warrior only does a 5 ft. step, they can full attack. Sure, a wizard could survive one attack, but 2 or 4 or 9? The wizard is still in a lot of danger if the spell doesn't drop the warrior.
IceFractal 06-14-07, 04:28 AM	5' steps for casting don't even change that much - a half-decent Wizard can cast spells defensively fairly easily. Spellcasting was never intended as some fragile precision action you had to do in a quiet room by yourself. It's a combat action, you can use it in combat - you just have to be a little cautious, and don't get cornered.
Steely_Dan 06-14-07, 04:49 AM	You could always ditch the 5 ft. step, as Saga has done, and replace it with the new Saga withdraw mechanic: Withdraw You can withdraw from combat as a move action. To withdraw, the first 1 square of your movement must take you out of you opponent's threatened area by the shortest possible route. If you must move more than 1 square to escape the threatened area, you can't withdraw. You can move normally (take a move action) in order to escape an opponent, but you provoke an attack of opportunity when doing so. Once you clear the threatened area, you may continue to move, up to a total of half your speed. You can disengage from more than one opponent in the same action, but only if you can clear all threatened areas in your first 1 square movement. Disengaging protects you from attacks of opportunity during your first square of movement, but you may provoke attacks of opportunity later in your turn (for example, you may move through another character's threatened area).
primemover003 06-14-07, 09:20 AM	The Withdraw action is already part of the Core rules... Withdraw Withdrawing from melee combat is a full-round action. When you withdraw, you can move up to double your speed. The square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see, and therefore visible enemies do not get attacks of opportunity against you when you move from that square. (Invisible enemies still get attacks of opportunity against you, and you can’t withdraw from combat if you’re blinded.) You can’t take a 5-foot step during the same round in which you withdraw. If, during the process of withdrawing, you move out of a threatened square (other than the one you started in), enemies get attacks of opportunity as normal. You may not withdraw using a form of movement for which you don’t have a listed speed. Note that despite the name of this action, you don’t actually have to leave combat entirely. Restricted Withdraw If you are limited to taking only a standard action each round you can withdraw as a standard action. In this case, you may move up to your speed (rather than up to double your speed).
lint trap 06-14-07, 09:52 AM	Has anyone ever tried to take a 5 foot step? It's really hard. It should be the 5 foot two-step. Taking it gives a synergy bonus to Perform (dance) checks. What the hell is the point of this thread? How is the OP's original example "lame?" Maybe I'm thick this morning, but I can't tell who he thinks is being shafted in his scenerio.
Steely_Dan 06-14-07, 10:00 AM	The Withdraw action is already part of the Core rules... ...You obviously didn't read my post… Withdraw in Saga in now a Move action where you can move half your speed.
BW0222 06-14-07, 10:43 AM	Necrosis, note on readying-its obvious what you are planning and enemeys will react so. Some exceptions-particually alien or unusal anatmeys are harder to read as are supernatural abilities. Nothing in the rules say that your opponent knows what you are planning. The might take an educated guess, based of the fact that the opponent didn't attack on his turn, but he could also be delaying (assuming he didn't take some type of move action). Even if you suspect that he is readying, you don't know what. Is it an attack, a move, a trip, a grapple, quick draw a bow and shoot, etc. You aren't even such what the trigger is. If could be casting a spell, moving, taking a spell component out of your pouch, making any sound, etc. In any case, you certainly don't have too many options to get your spell off safely, even if you suspect what your opponent might do. Ok, you suspect he has readied an action to attack you with that longsword of his. You assume if you take a 5' step and cast, he'll 5' step and hit you. Ok... now what? #1. You don't cast. You take a 5' step, take out a bow and try using it. However, your opponent has readying an action to hit you "anytime he takes an offensive action". He 5' steps, and you still get hit. #2. You move back more than 5' before casting the spell. You draw an AoO for leaving a threatened square, and his readied action was to "move up next to the caster to movement he takes anything out his component pouch." He moves up to you just before you are casting. or he has quickdraw and has readied an action to shoot an arrow at you when casting. etc., etc. Now, some actions might get you out of the soup, others might subject you to multiple hits. In some rounds neither side will get any attacks, in some the caster might get a spell off without any attacks directed at him, and in some rounds the caster will be hit repeatedly without getting a spell off. In any case, any combat between fighters and casters with any brains is not going to be a simple "rinse and repeat" of 5' stepping to avoid AoOs. One side or the other is going to switch tactics long before repeated rounds of allowing themselves to be full-attacked or allowing a caster to repeatedly get spells off.
Light_Colonel 06-14-07, 11:05 AM	...You obviously didn't read my post… Withdraw in Saga in now a Move action where you can move half your speed. That's even more broken than a 5 foot step for casters then. Wizard action - ok, I withdraw as a move action and walk 15 feet away. Cast as a standard. Fighter - *cries because he used to be able to 5 foot right after the Wizard and get a full attack, but now is limited to either a charge or a single attack*
northern_bear 06-14-07, 11:18 AM	Seems a bit lame, I'd say. Wizard in melee, step back five feet, cast a spell. Warrior moves closer, strikes. Take a five foot step, cast a spell. That's what you get with turn based combat. Is the 5 foot step any worse than the fact that everybody stands still doing nothing while one character runs across the room and stabs somebody. Then everybody continues to stand still while a second character hides under the table and drinks a potion. Then everyone continues standing still while a third character casts a spell, then runs away. Turn based combat is strange if you look at it literally. You have to recognize that it is just a rules abstraction to try to make the game more managable. If you don't have a problem with turn based combat weirdness, then why should you have problem with the five foot step weirdness.
Steely_Dan 06-14-07, 11:30 AM	Fighter - *cries because he used to be able to 5 foot right after the Wizard and get a full attack, but now is limited to either a charge or a single attack* And what's wrong with that, now that ToB came down the pike, hopefully the future of this game won't be just to get into a position where you can full attack, plant your feet, and monotonously whack away until you or your enemy drops. Oh, and charge is a Standard action.
fukifino 06-14-07, 11:49 AM	And what's wrong with that, now that ToB came down the pike, hopefully the future of this game won't be just to get into a position where you can full attack, plant your feet, and monotonously whack away until you or your enemy drops. Oh, and charge is a Standard action. I'm assuming you mean charge is a standard action in Saga rules. Because it's a full round action in standard d20.
Light_Colonel 06-14-07, 11:49 AM	And what's wrong with that, now that ToB came down the pike, hopefully the future of this game won't be just to get into a position where you can full attack, plant your feet, and monotonously whack away until you or your enemy drops. Oh, and charge is a Standard action. Yes, I know, I read your Saga Edition thread (at least I think it was yours?) I am unimpressed. Five foots are more or less fine how they are. Charge is fine how it is and Withdraw is fine how it is. (In 3.5) After having seen all of the incredibly sickening Charge builds there are out there, I don't think making Charge a Standard action is a great idea either.
goawayugh 06-14-07, 12:10 PM	Oh, and charge is a Standard action. No it's not. Charging is a special full-round action... ...f you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Steely_Dan 06-14-07, 12:21 PM	I'm assuming you mean charge is a standard action in Saga rules. Because it's a full round action in standard d20. Of course.
Steely_Dan 06-14-07, 12:27 PM	No it's not. Yes, we all know it's not in D&D, but it is in Saga, and that's what we're talking about. All of the changes actually make combat more tactically interesting my group has found.
lears_fool 06-14-07, 12:46 PM	Yes, we all know it's not in D&D, but it is in Saga, and that's what we're talking about. All of the changes actually make combat more tactically interesting my group has found. Tactically interesting is always good. Interestingly, a group I'm in switched over to Castles and Crusades (a modified hybrid AD&D/D20/something else system) for a bit and, while there are some parts of the system I'm iffy on, I've got to admit the combat was a blast and flew by without a hitch. There's something to be said for the game simplifying the heck out of the rules and simply encouraging the DM to give modifiers for intelligent behavior/stylish maneuvers. We even ran one combat without a mat *shock* I also ran a couple of combats in a dark fantasy/horror set of sessions gridless and mechanics light and got a lot of praise for it (which was nice, considering it was easy and fun). My intent at the time was simply to avoid the jarring 'spooky game with lots of atmosphere' to 'ditch the atmosphere and pull out the colorful minis!' transition but the improve in game flow really made me wonder about how well the current combat system meshes with the role-playing side.
BuffaloGM 06-14-07, 02:40 PM	When you ready an action, it must be a standard, move, or free action. If you ready an attack ( a standard ) to hit a spellcaster, i didnt think you could 5 foot step, as this is a standard AND a free action. Did i miss a rule sme place?
lears_fool 06-14-07, 02:42 PM	When you ready an action, it must be a standard, move, or free action. If you ready an attack ( a standard ) to hit a spellcaster, i didnt think you could 5 foot step, as this is a standard AND a free action. Did i miss a rule sme place? Yeah, I was surprised by that one the first time I ran into it too. . You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round. So as long as you never moved, you can 5' step all you want. Err, you can 5' step once all you want . .that once. you know what I mean :P
BuffaloGM 06-14-07, 02:47 PM	thanks for that clarification, I can now apologize to all my PC's .... again.
lastknightleft 06-14-07, 03:06 PM	Ah yes, the rote "I thought it was this way, but I was wrong I apologize. What, you're giving me a hard time about this? Then you read all twelve books we're using in this campaign and remember how to apply all those rules while still being flexible enough to houserule it when you want to do those weird little things you think up and I'll just roll up a character. What you don't want to DM? that's what I thought." apology. I've had to use that so many times:D As to five foot steps, my players always want to argue that they take a five foot step when they are prone. Using arguments like "That makes no sense, I can't roll away quickly or crawl carefully without standing or provoking an AoO?"