"A good nights sleep" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"A good nights sleep" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Herr Doktor
12-12-03, 01:34 AM My question concerns Wizards and the requirement of getting a good nights sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook to memorize spells per day.

A ring of sustenance makes it so that a person who needs to sleep only needs to sleep for 2 hours to be fully rested.

Does this mean a wizard with a ring of sustenance only needs to rest 3 hours 2 sleeping 1 studying to memorize new spellsWhat about a lich They dont sleep at all.

Is all that is required of them an hour of reading to have a full arsenal of spells againThe only thing I found about this in a source book is in the Unapproachable East with the Volodni race.

They get a special quality called Sustenance that states they only need two hours of sleep each night to gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep although arcane spellcasters must still have 8 hours rest to prepare spells.

Is this the same case for rings of sustenance, elves, and lichdom?
Eightbitmage
12-12-03, 01:42 AM i think the way it works for the ring and for elves is that even if they dont need the sleep, they still need the 8 hours of uninterupted rest to gain the ability to use spells
PaladinSix
12-12-03, 02:46 AM On the lich thing, I house ruled that any undead never needs to sleep or rest before restudying spells. Being as they're dead and the mind still seems to work pretty well, it seemed silly to make them wait eight hours before they could study. They can rememorize spells immediately after casting, or wait until a more convenient time. One of benefits (maybe the only one) to being a lich. Last and only time a PC party went up against one of my liches, they were not betting on that and got a very nasty surprise.
Wayne
12-12-03, 03:14 AM Well, there's the big question again... logic, or rules? :D

Quote the 3.5 PHB (page 178, subheading, heh, "Rest"):

"...if the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she must still have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. For example, elf Wizards need 8 hours of rest to clear their minds, even though they need only 4 hours of trance to refresh their bodies."

I would assume Liches (being Undead, and therefore not even needing rest, let alone a "restful calm") can ignore this stipulation, although by-the-book it looks like they're bound by it, too. Personally, I'd rule that the Ring doesn't work (in part because it's hard to generate the necessary "restful calm" in just two hours, regardless of physical rest; but also because we don't want every preparing spellcaster to get these things and ignore spells per day by just squeezing two hours of rest in several times a day); but Elves are fine with four hours (that is a benefit to being an Elf, after all) and Undead needn't any. But....
DrMorganes
12-12-03, 09:29 AM Actually, Wayne, your assumption is completely at odds with the quote from the SRD. The rule quite specifically states that chracters not need[ing] to sleep for some reason . . . must still have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells.

Undead by definition need no sleep. However, intelligent undead like litches or vampires would still require 8 hours to clear their minds enough to focus on the bizarre logic and arcane vocabulary required to prepare their spells.

Obviously this is simply a strict interpretation of the rules as published. I think it helps preserve the sense of continuity in a game to force all casters to abide by the same rules. I think that allowing undead to simply sit down and prepare spells while requiring the living to rest for 8 hours breaks down the logical consistency of how magic "works" in a standard campaign.
Millennium
12-12-03, 09:50 AM In other words, even if you don't need to necessarily sleep per se, you still need a good eight hours to relax. It just so happens thatmost humanoids can spend this time asleep, which probably makes it significantly less boring.
Wayward Son
12-12-03, 10:31 AM Occasionally, I have toyed with the idea of allowing some means of reducing the time spent resting before preparing spells. Generally, I leave the 8-hour rule stand, but in a few campaigns it's lead to a party failing a time-based mission because, knowing what they were going to face, they tried to have their spellcasters at full power. Additionally, I've had more than one campaign as a player where the random encounters occured so frequently that eight hours of rest became impossible and our spellcasters could never re-prepare spells.

The best way I could devise was to leave the 8-hour rule in place, but add a feat:

Meditation(General)
The character has learned methods of calming his mind quickly.
Prerequisites:Wis 15+, spellcasting class which requires 8-hours of rest to prepare spells.
Benefit: By spending time meditating, the character may reduce the eight hours of restful calm required to re-prepare spells. Each hour spent meditating counts as two hours of restful calm for this purpose, with partial hours accumulating the same 1:2 ratio (a half hour counts as one hour, a quarter hour counts as one half, etc.). This meditation in no way affects the amount of time the character must spend sleeping to avoid fatigue, and also differs from an elf's Trance. Meditation time does not need to be continuous, with shorter periods accumulating as long as they are made within eight hours of one another.
The character must spend one minute entering the meditative state, during which he requires relative calm, free from distractions. Once in this state, the character remains distantly aware of his surroundings, suffering a -5 penalty to Spot and Listen checks and considered helpless until roused. The character may choose to ignore any distraction, but injuries or violent movement will force him from his meditation. The character may end the meditation at any time as a standard action, but if forced from his meditation (through injury or violent movement) he must spend a full round reorientating himself to his surroundings, during which time he is considered dazed.
Unlike restful calm, no other actions may be taken by a meditating character during the meditation.
This feat may only be taken once.
Normal: Spellcasters who require rest to prepare or replenish daily spells must spend eight hours of restful calm prior to preparation. They may engage in light activity and conversation during this time.

What do you think?
Wayne
12-12-03, 10:33 AM Actually, Wayne, your assumption is completely at odds with the quote from the SRD.

Yep, I know; and said as much at the end of that sentence. *chuckles* I'm of the mind that a spellcaster who needs no rest at all (or gets enough in a shorter span of time, like an Elf) does not require the full eight hours (if any). That is more logical in my mind. But I do realize that it doesn't follow the letter of the rules and it's not really something to spend time arguing over; as long as balance mechanics are unchanged (and I have no PC Liches at this time) it's really just flavor. Besides; as bad as the Lich template is, free "rest" for spells (still requiring the hour for preparation, of course) seems fair enough to me.
eudas
12-12-03, 10:52 AM Originally posted by Wayward Son
(snip)

The best way I could devise was to leave the 8-hour rule in place, but add a feat:

Meditation(General)
The character has learned methods of calming his mind quickly.
Prerequisites:Wis 15+, spellcasting class which requires 8-hours of rest to prepare spells.
Benefit: By spending time meditating, the character may reduce the eight hours of restful calm required to re-prepare spells. Each hour spent meditating counts as two hours of restful calm for this purpose, with partial hours accumulating the same 1:2 ratio (a half hour counts as one hour, a quarter hour counts as one half, etc.). This meditation in no way affects the amount of time the character must spend sleeping to avoid fatigue, and also differs from an elf's Trance. Meditation time does not need to be continuous, with shorter periods accumulating as long as they are made within eight hours of one another.
The character must spend one minute entering the meditative state, during which he requires relative calm, free from distractions. Once in this state, the character remains distantly aware of his surroundings, suffering a -5 penalty to Spot and Listen checks and considered helpless until roused. The character may choose to ignore any distraction, but injuries or violent movement will force him from his meditation. The character may end the meditation at any time as a standard action, but if forced from his meditation (through injury or violent movement) he must spend a full round reorientating himself to his surroundings, during which time he is considered dazed.
Unlike restful calm, no other actions may be taken by a meditating character during the meditation.
This feat may only be taken once.
Normal: Spellcasters who require rest to prepare or replenish daily spells must spend eight hours of restful calm prior to preparation. They may engage in light activity and conversation during this time.

What do you think?

I think that it is a very well-written and balanced feat. Kudos!

eudas
PaladinSix
12-12-03, 02:15 PM I agree with Eudas. Meditation (as written by Wayward Son) is a excellent addition to the Feat list. It's potentially a powerful feat (relative to some others that are specific to wizards) but I like it because it allows a PC wizard to gain a skill that is very useful in the adventuring life. Non-adventuring wizards would probably do better with the item creation feats, but it adds another thing to the list of ways to diferentiate casters from one another, without adding another damn prestige class.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Herr Doktor 12-12-03, 01:34 AM	My question concerns Wizards and the requirement of getting a good nights sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook to memorize spells per day. A ring of sustenance makes it so that a person who needs to sleep only needs to sleep for 2 hours to be fully rested. Does this mean a wizard with a ring of sustenance only needs to rest 3 hours 2 sleeping 1 studying to memorize new spellsWhat about a lich They dont sleep at all. Is all that is required of them an hour of reading to have a full arsenal of spells againThe only thing I found about this in a source book is in the Unapproachable East with the Volodni race. They get a special quality called Sustenance that states they only need two hours of sleep each night to gain the benefits of 8 hours of sleep although arcane spellcasters must still have 8 hours rest to prepare spells. Is this the same case for rings of sustenance, elves, and lichdom?
Eightbitmage 12-12-03, 01:42 AM	i think the way it works for the ring and for elves is that even if they dont need the sleep, they still need the 8 hours of uninterupted rest to gain the ability to use spells
PaladinSix 12-12-03, 02:46 AM	On the lich thing, I house ruled that any undead never needs to sleep or rest before restudying spells. Being as they're dead and the mind still seems to work pretty well, it seemed silly to make them wait eight hours before they could study. They can rememorize spells immediately after casting, or wait until a more convenient time. One of benefits (maybe the only one) to being a lich. Last and only time a PC party went up against one of my liches, they were not betting on that and got a very nasty surprise.
Wayne 12-12-03, 03:14 AM	Well, there's the big question again... logic, or rules? :D Quote the 3.5 PHB (page 178, subheading, heh, "Rest"): "...if the character does not need to sleep for some reason, she must still have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. For example, elf Wizards need 8 hours of rest to clear their minds, even though they need only 4 hours of trance to refresh their bodies." I would assume Liches (being Undead, and therefore not even needing rest, let alone a "restful calm") can ignore this stipulation, although by-the-book it looks like they're bound by it, too. Personally, I'd rule that the Ring doesn't work (in part because it's hard to generate the necessary "restful calm" in just two hours, regardless of physical rest; but also because we don't want every preparing spellcaster to get these things and ignore spells per day by just squeezing two hours of rest in several times a day); but Elves are fine with four hours (that is a benefit to being an Elf, after all) and Undead needn't any. But....
DrMorganes 12-12-03, 09:29 AM	Actually, Wayne, your assumption is completely at odds with the quote from the SRD. The rule quite specifically states that chracters not need[ing] to sleep for some reason . . . must still have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells. Undead by definition need no sleep. However, intelligent undead like litches or vampires would still require 8 hours to clear their minds enough to focus on the bizarre logic and arcane vocabulary required to prepare their spells. Obviously this is simply a strict interpretation of the rules as published. I think it helps preserve the sense of continuity in a game to force all casters to abide by the same rules. I think that allowing undead to simply sit down and prepare spells while requiring the living to rest for 8 hours breaks down the logical consistency of how magic "works" in a standard campaign.
Millennium 12-12-03, 09:50 AM	In other words, even if you don't need to necessarily sleep per se, you still need a good eight hours to relax. It just so happens thatmost humanoids can spend this time asleep, which probably makes it significantly less boring.
Wayward Son 12-12-03, 10:31 AM	Occasionally, I have toyed with the idea of allowing some means of reducing the time spent resting before preparing spells. Generally, I leave the 8-hour rule stand, but in a few campaigns it's lead to a party failing a time-based mission because, knowing what they were going to face, they tried to have their spellcasters at full power. Additionally, I've had more than one campaign as a player where the random encounters occured so frequently that eight hours of rest became impossible and our spellcasters could never re-prepare spells. The best way I could devise was to leave the 8-hour rule in place, but add a feat: Meditation(General) The character has learned methods of calming his mind quickly. Prerequisites:Wis 15+, spellcasting class which requires 8-hours of rest to prepare spells. Benefit: By spending time meditating, the character may reduce the eight hours of restful calm required to re-prepare spells. Each hour spent meditating counts as two hours of restful calm for this purpose, with partial hours accumulating the same 1:2 ratio (a half hour counts as one hour, a quarter hour counts as one half, etc.). This meditation in no way affects the amount of time the character must spend sleeping to avoid fatigue, and also differs from an elf's Trance. Meditation time does not need to be continuous, with shorter periods accumulating as long as they are made within eight hours of one another. The character must spend one minute entering the meditative state, during which he requires relative calm, free from distractions. Once in this state, the character remains distantly aware of his surroundings, suffering a -5 penalty to Spot and Listen checks and considered helpless until roused. The character may choose to ignore any distraction, but injuries or violent movement will force him from his meditation. The character may end the meditation at any time as a standard action, but if forced from his meditation (through injury or violent movement) he must spend a full round reorientating himself to his surroundings, during which time he is considered dazed. Unlike restful calm, no other actions may be taken by a meditating character during the meditation. This feat may only be taken once. Normal: Spellcasters who require rest to prepare or replenish daily spells must spend eight hours of restful calm prior to preparation. They may engage in light activity and conversation during this time. What do you think?
Wayne 12-12-03, 10:33 AM	Actually, Wayne, your assumption is completely at odds with the quote from the SRD. Yep, I know; and said as much at the end of that sentence. chuckles I'm of the mind that a spellcaster who needs no rest at all (or gets enough in a shorter span of time, like an Elf) does not require the full eight hours (if any). That is more logical in my mind. But I do realize that it doesn't follow the letter of the rules and it's not really something to spend time arguing over; as long as balance mechanics are unchanged (and I have no PC Liches at this time) it's really just flavor. Besides; as bad as the Lich template is, free "rest" for spells (still requiring the hour for preparation, of course) seems fair enough to me.
eudas 12-12-03, 10:52 AM	Originally posted by Wayward Son (snip) The best way I could devise was to leave the 8-hour rule in place, but add a feat: Meditation(General) The character has learned methods of calming his mind quickly. Prerequisites:Wis 15+, spellcasting class which requires 8-hours of rest to prepare spells. Benefit: By spending time meditating, the character may reduce the eight hours of restful calm required to re-prepare spells. Each hour spent meditating counts as two hours of restful calm for this purpose, with partial hours accumulating the same 1:2 ratio (a half hour counts as one hour, a quarter hour counts as one half, etc.). This meditation in no way affects the amount of time the character must spend sleeping to avoid fatigue, and also differs from an elf's Trance. Meditation time does not need to be continuous, with shorter periods accumulating as long as they are made within eight hours of one another. The character must spend one minute entering the meditative state, during which he requires relative calm, free from distractions. Once in this state, the character remains distantly aware of his surroundings, suffering a -5 penalty to Spot and Listen checks and considered helpless until roused. The character may choose to ignore any distraction, but injuries or violent movement will force him from his meditation. The character may end the meditation at any time as a standard action, but if forced from his meditation (through injury or violent movement) he must spend a full round reorientating himself to his surroundings, during which time he is considered dazed. Unlike restful calm, no other actions may be taken by a meditating character during the meditation. This feat may only be taken once. Normal: Spellcasters who require rest to prepare or replenish daily spells must spend eight hours of restful calm prior to preparation. They may engage in light activity and conversation during this time. What do you think? I think that it is a very well-written and balanced feat. Kudos! eudas
PaladinSix 12-12-03, 02:15 PM	I agree with Eudas. Meditation (as written by Wayward Son) is a excellent addition to the Feat list. It's potentially a powerful feat (relative to some others that are specific to wizards) but I like it because it allows a PC wizard to gain a skill that is very useful in the adventuring life. Non-adventuring wizards would probably do better with the item creation feats, but it adds another thing to the list of ways to diferentiate casters from one another, without adding another damn prestige class.