Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TwiddleStootch 10-14-06, 02:23 PM	Hello, I think every DM must have had this happen atleast once: The PCs rander your boss helpless(hold monster/person, flesh to stone etc...) and then coup de grace it and kill it i nthe first round. Now I know some of you proboly don't mind this, but I for one would like to make my boss fights a bit for dramatic. So I am looking for a way to protect my bosses from coup de graces, with out jsut saying they are, if possible. and to answer it now, yes, I have banned all save or die spells in my games. thanks in advance for any help.
KirkBb 10-14-06, 02:29 PM	Just make your BBEG undead, problem solved, no coup de grace, no flesh to stone either
TwiddleStootch 10-14-06, 02:32 PM	that's not always a option. for me there are sevral reason I can't: 1) the players ahve already met the BBEG, so i can't jsut up and change it and 2) my BBEG only has 14 HD, meaning a combat rank of 6 as a skeleton. the party will be facing him at LV 13 thanks for the idea, but I am afraid it doesn't apply to this one in paticular
Krusk 10-14-06, 02:33 PM	Give him an assistant/bodygaurd. If they attempt a coup de grace while the leader is helpless the bodygaurd is standing right there to full attack. works especially well if he has 3-4 bodygaurds. If it comes down to it, and they keep doign mass spells that make all your npcs helpless you can always have one ~pass~ through dm ruling even if it would not anyway. Just dont tell the players.
TwiddleStootch 10-14-06, 02:34 PM	I ahve considdered giving him some menions(even if that would mean re-doing him to make it the right CR) that could block the PCs path to him to coup de grace him. so I might end up doing that.
Thubby 10-14-06, 02:35 PM	heavy fortified armor (protecs from crits). since most bind effects are will based, give him an item that stops mind effecting spells. other minions to block emediate access to bbeg, not to mention coupe de grace provokes aoo, contingency rem.paralysis/teleport. fudge, fudge like the wind!!!! (dice are irrevelant, we are the borg, i mean dms)
BlaineTog 10-14-06, 02:37 PM	Well, Heavy Fortification armor arguably gives him immunity to coup de graces. For Hold Person, you could just get him a mind blank. Or you could, you know, fudge the rolls. Do it carefully and the PC's won't notice. Bodygaurds are definatelly a good idea; a BBEG by himself is generally either pretty easy, or a TPK (if he's too far above the PCs in level).
orionm42 10-14-06, 02:38 PM	Ring of freedom of movement! :D
Yangzigi 10-14-06, 02:44 PM	if they kill the boss in a few round good for them. If they paln it good and it work , they re going to feel good about it, the DM job is not to find a boss the pc cant use there special ability against. ( i know it can suck when it happen , but if they like it , thats what matter)
TwiddleStootch 10-14-06, 02:45 PM	orionm42, THANK YOU! /bow I didn't know freedom of movement saved them from paralysis, and the BBEg can cast cleric spells so he can jsut cast it on him self. thank you again! this is perfect!
orionm42 10-14-06, 02:47 PM	orionm42, THANK YOU! /bow I didn't know freedom of movement saved them from paralysis, and the BBEg can cast cleric spells so he can jsut cast it on him self. thank you again! this is perfect! Glad I could help! :tiphat:
aotrscommander 10-14-06, 02:47 PM	Generally, don't deploy your BBEG without back-up, even if it's 1 HD chaff. I have found from painful personal experience that a single BBEG, even one fairly significantly stronger than the party level, tends to go down fairly fast on his/her/its own (this is especially true with larger (5+) parties). Scatter a few minions in, be they numerous chaff or mid-high level characters/monsters. Heck, even summons can be useful! To point is to force the PCs to split their fire. It might take but a round or two to clear the chaff, but that's a round or two you wouldn't have otherwise.
TwiddleStootch 10-14-06, 02:49 PM	thanks for the advice, and I do plan to have him summon some help. I'll make sure that's the first thing he does :D
Hydryh 10-14-06, 04:02 PM	that's not always a option. for me there are sevral reason I can't: 1) the players ahve already met the BBEG, so i can't jsut up and change it and 2) my BBEG only has 14 HD, meaning a combat rank of 6 as a skeleton. the party will be facing him at LV 13 thanks for the idea, but I am afraid it doesn't apply to this one in paticular 1) Sure you can change it, if you like. The BBEG has a life outside of the party, so maybe he was killed by a bigger BBEG and raised as a greater undead. Or maybe he was on the john and got mauled by a vampire. You don't have to break the rules to change things. 2) Definitely do NOT bring him back as a skelly if you do make him undead; something more like a lich, vampire, or mummy is much tougher and will help this guy from turning into just another casualty as you fear. Heck, give him a hat of disguise self and he'll still look alive, so the first time they fight him, the pcs won't know to prep for undeadliness. 3) Ring of freedom of movement sounds great, and a bajillion underlings is always a good move. If your BBEG is intelligent, he'd know from legends, etc, that the Great Evil is always thwarted when caught alone in a room with the Legendary Heroes, so he'd focus on always having meat sheilds between him and the party.
Sildatorak 10-14-06, 04:39 PM	And don't underestimate the ring of counterspells either. If your BBEG is undead, put disintegrate into it. If living hold person or hold monster as appropriate to the level of foes (i.e. PC's) that are going to be fought.
Godzilla 10-14-06, 06:28 PM	You could give your BBEG some sort of item that prevents critical hits, like some sort of Fortifaction armour, making critical hits never happen, at least to him. You could also agree with the players beforehand that no critical hits can be scored on the BBEG, at least for a few rounds.
Loopy 10-14-06, 06:33 PM	I ahve considdered giving him some menions(even if that would mean re-doing him to make it the right CR) that could block the PCs path to him to coup de grace him. so I might end up doing that. Where a "final" encounter with a BBEG is concerned, you should overly worry yourself about the CR of the encounter too much. A CR 13 BBEG with two CR 10 bodyguards is fine for a 12th or 13th level party.
Feriin 10-14-06, 07:02 PM	Where a "final" encounter with a BBEG is concerned, you should overly worry yourself about the CR of the encounter too much. A CR 13 BBEG with two CR 10 bodyguards is fine for a 12th or 13th level party. I pretty much throw this type of reasoning out of the window with my epic level group. The final encounter they will have will be against 1 Demi-God who has (through the use of an epic spell) copied himself 3 times (so there are 4 of him). On top of that each of these copies can poses 2 mortal beings ( they will be powerful NPCs (I mean about 35th level each give or take). On top of that each of these copies will also be able to fire off 3 spells a round. In the off-chance that my players are reading this, I will not say any more of the final confrontation with this Diety. With my other group though the above quoted stuff works pretty well.
orionm42 10-14-06, 07:07 PM	And don't underestimate the ring of counterspells either. If your BBEG is undead, put disintegrate into it. If living hold person or hold monster as appropriate to the level of foes (i.e. PC's) that are going to be fought. One reason I put the :D emoticon after my suggestion is it is pretty expensive (40,000gp) and it is a "major" treasure item. Fortunately, the DM's BBEG can cast freedom of movement himself. If he couldn't, and if the DM doesn't want to see a freedom of movement ring in the hands of the PCs, Sildatorak's suggestion is excellent...and only 4,000gp to boot!
Neutronium_Dragon 10-14-06, 09:25 PM	"Big Bad Boss" encounters may be popular in some action games on the computer, but they don't work very well in the context of 3E. You're much better off to have a group of masterminds than one single one, even one single one with backup. Whether or not you go out of your way to make him arbitrarily immune to any of the effective things which the PCs can do (which is a lame thing to do to them - they worked hard to get those abilities in the first place), he's still subject to focused fire of the purely damaging variety taking him out quickly. As a rule of thumb, every "finale" battle should include at least three credible threats (fodder doesn't count as threats) of roughly equal power; if one goes down unexpectedly that still leaves a significant challenge in the others.
Cifer 10-14-06, 09:42 PM	Whether or not you go out of your way to make him arbitrarily immune to any of the effective things which the PCs can do (which is a lame thing to do to them - they worked hard to get those abilities in the first place), he's still subject to focused fire of the purely damaging variety taking him out quickly. Actually, there is another way: Make the abilities available to the PCs in the later parts of the battle. For example, your group has a wizard specializing in dispelling, a sunder-specialized fighter and a rogue. Building onto this, you have a BBEG who is behind a Wall of Whatever and has a mighty ring providing him with 100% fortification. The PCs who have researched a bit about this BBEG now should first let the wizard dispel the wall, whereupon the fighter can sunder the ring (does anyone recall Sauron here? Yeah, he can sunder the hand of the BBEG in the process too, if it makes anyone happier) which enables the rogue to sneak attack. During the whole process, the PCs are beset by the creatures BBEG summons. All in all, every PC has its role in the combat and it is almost certain to be longer than a few rounds.
Sildatorak 10-14-06, 09:53 PM	whereupon the fighter can sunder the ring Is that allowed within the rules? I know you can sunder an amulet, but I'm unsure about a ring.
DarthLoser 10-14-06, 10:03 PM	I don't see why not; Just give it a massive AC bonus. A ring would be damn near impossible to hit.
Cifer 10-14-06, 10:15 PM	Is that allowed within the rules? I know you can sunder an amulet, but I'm unsure about a ring. Isildur could do it - why shouldn't a PC?
Piggyfreak6 10-14-06, 10:52 PM	Bring him back later on as a Lich... well, that's if he's a magic user
Callista 10-15-06, 02:36 AM	To those who say it's OK if the PCs kill the BBEG in the first round: The point here is not to kill the PCs; it's to make the battle dramatic. A CdG is not dramatic. A fifteen-round battle in which half the PCs are in the negatives at some time or other... now that's dramatic. With BBEG battles, you want to cut it as close as you can and still have the PCs survive. That's why so many people are recommending more than one BBEG or at least a BBEG with a lot of minions: Single-monster fights, especially a single monster above the party's level as the BBEG probably is, can swing from trivially easy to TPKs just because of the luck of the dice. They're very random, and that's a bad thing. But multiple opponents will even out the damage done so that the PCs cannot either kill the opponents, or be killed, immediately. It means a fight that is dramatic if they win, and survivable if they lose (they will have enough time to see it going bad and choose to run). Predictability isn't just good for the PCs' health--it's good for the plot.
DarknessEternal 10-15-06, 02:47 AM	Do not every use a single creature as an encounter. Do not. If you do, expect that single creature to be dead in one round. It will happen every single time.
Lina_Inverse 10-15-06, 07:34 AM	Hello, I think every DM must have had this happen atleast once: The PCs rander your boss helpless(hold monster/person, flesh to stone etc...) and then coup de grace it and kill it i nthe first round. Now I know some of you proboly don't mind this, but I for one would like to make my boss fights a bit for dramatic. So I am looking for a way to protect my bosses from coup de graces, with out jsut saying they are, if possible. and to answer it now, yes, I have banned all save or die spells in my games. thanks in advance for any help. The obvious question is what IS your BBEG. If its a class based charecter there is absolutely nothing you can do, as any PC can probably kill himself in one round anyways, your party can thus probably kill the bbeg 4 times in one round.
Orbb_was_railed_by_God 10-15-06, 08:10 AM	Beware solving problems like this through the use of equipment. The players will kill your BBEG, and then loot. Hard. Do you want your party running around with a ring of counterspells, armour of heavy fortification and an amulet of mind spell immunity - from one fight?
aotrscommander 10-15-06, 08:52 AM	Where a "final" encounter with a BBEG is concerned, you should overly worry yourself about the CR of the encounter too much. A CR 13 BBEG with two CR 10 bodyguards is fine for a 12th or 13th level party. You meant 'shouldn't', didn't you.
WayneTheGame 10-15-06, 09:04 AM	I'm going to get a lot of flak for this comment, but here's my idea: When your PCs try to use Hold/Flesh to Stone/whatever to make your BBEG helpless, fudge the die and say that he succeeded on his save! As long as you don't fudge rolls to deliberately screw the PCs, no one at the table should have any problems (not that they should ever know you fudged the roll in the first place). I routinely fudge BBEG rolls to make a battle more dramatic.. once I admit I fudged a guy's ATTACK rolls so he hit a PC (was rolling horribly low that night) when the dice said he didn't, and I "magically" gave him some cure potions because I knew one of the PCs was capable of some heavy damage. Before anyone gets on my case for that let met say that the result was a brilliant fight that nearly killed the PCs, but in the end they prevailed and complimented me on such a challenging, dramatic encounter. I doubt the same would have happened had I let the dice fall where they may and the PCs had demolished him in one round. In short, there is nothing wrong with fudging the rolls to make a fight more dramatic, so go ahead and do it if you're that worried about the BBEG failing a save and having the PCs take him down easily. If it's something that has an abnormally high DC, give him a one-shot item (or say he had a buff on him beforehand that gave a bonus, or something like that) so the PCs can't loot it afterwards.
orionm42 10-15-06, 09:39 AM	I'm going to get a lot of flak for this comment, but....fudge the die and say that he succeeded on his save! You won't get any flak from me, because I have done it too. Rarely. But I've done it. While I will usually give my BBEG some specific equipment to counter tactics the PCs commonly use, every now and again, the PCs manage to do some really incapacating stuff early in the encounter. A fudged die roll or two for dramatic effect is just what the cleric ordered in such cases! It works the other way around too...an early critical by the BBEG which will bring down one of the players may end up being a regular hit. :) Also, with respect to equipment....just because the BBEG uses something during a battle, that does not necessarily mean that piece of equipment is part of the treasure awarded to the players when they kill him. Case in point, you don't get studded leather armor, a light shield, a long sword and a javalin every time you kill a hobgoblin! You get a standard treasure roll instead.
Orbb_was_railed_by_God 10-15-06, 10:03 AM	We aren't playing Diablo II here. If you kill something, it has what it had on it at the time. If you had the presence of mind to roll standard treasure for the encounter beforehand, fine. If you rolled a particularly nasty piece of weaponry or armour, then fine. Just make sure it wasn't tucked away in the hobgoblin's seemingly-bottomless backback, instead of in his hands, dealing unholy death to do-gooding adventurers. I swear, if I had a penny for each time a gobbo dropped a suit of magical plate, I would be a very rich man.
Cifer 10-15-06, 10:14 AM	What Orbb said...
orionm42 10-15-06, 10:54 AM	If you kill something, it has what it had on it at the time.. When I equip a BBEG, I will generally give him equipment worth approximately what a PC at a comparable level will have. For example, if I create a 10th level evil cleric...the cleric will have approximately 50,000gp worth of stuff (49,000 is the amount listed in the "character wealth by level" table 5-1 of the DMG). Hell, even a 10th level NPC has 16,000gp worth of gear. Note that because I equip them like a PC, I generally don't use BBEGs with a CR 3 or 4 levels higher than the PCs. The average treasure value for a 10th level encounter is 5,800gp. Now, I don't play diablo, so I have no idea what it's like...but I would generally think it a mistake to give a party of 10th level PCs 50K worth of gear in one shot. But that is just me.
orionm42 10-15-06, 11:02 AM	deleted
Sildatorak 10-15-06, 11:17 AM	The obvious question is what IS your BBEG. If its a class based charecter there is absolutely nothing you can do, as any PC can probably kill himself in one round anyways, your party can thus probably kill the bbeg 4 times in one round. How does this make sense? If he is class based, he is probably several levels above the PC's but with slightly less gear than one individually. Gear does count for a lot of power level, but an extra 20 hp, +2 to attack, +1 to all saves, and an extra feat are all going to offset that downside at least partially. The only way the PC's should be able to slaughter a class based NPC of higher level without the converse being true is if they are juiced up to the point that they aren't anywhere near the DMG guidelines and you build the NPC within the guidelines. If you have a situation where the PC's can, within the guidelines, slaughter the BBEG in one round; you probably have a BBEG that is capable of killing at least one of them in one round as well. Or at least dominate person one of them. ring of counterspells That is a fairly cheap item that is of moderate use, so I wouldn't feel bad about my PC's getting it. Additionally, if this is a climactic encounter, dishing out wealth won't affect balance, but will instead just provide comfort to the adventurers who are about to retire.
Cifer 10-15-06, 11:35 AM	When I equip a BBEG, I will generally give him equipment worth approximately what a PC at a comparable level will have. For example, if I create a 10th level evil cleric...the cleric will have approximately 50,000gp worth of stuff (49,000 is the amount listed in the "character wealth by level" table 5-1 of the DMG). Hell, even a 10th level NPC has 16,000gp worth of gear. Note that because I equip them like a PC, I generally don't use BBEGs with a CR 3 or 4 levels higher than the PCs. The average treasure value for a 10th level encounter is 5,800gp. Now, I don't play diablo, so I have no idea what it's like...but I would generally think it a mistake to give a party of 10th level PCs 50K worth of gear in one shot. But that is just me. And how do you explain that the BBEG suddenly lacks his kewl itemz after dying? Just by saying "sorry, would have made you too powerful. Forget it."?
orionm42 10-15-06, 11:47 AM	As a quick follow up on the equipment issue, the OP indicated his BBEG was a cleric, so he could cast freedom of movement. Let's say, for the sake of this discussion, the BBEG is a 7th level wizard. He can cast 4th level spells, but he cannot cast freedom of movement because it is not available to his class. Since the spell cannot be made into a potion, the next best core alternative would be the ring. But, as I noted earlier, the ring is worth 40,000gp. Personally, I would have no problem equipping the PC with the ring so he can benefit from the spell and avoid an early death. Additionally, I would not give the ring to the PCs because it would clearly put them out of line with the wealth per character guidelines. Note the ring is a major magic item. Based on the random treasure tables, the PCs should not be awarded any such items until 10th level. And how do you explain that the BBEG suddenly lacks his kewl itemz after dying? Just by saying "sorry, would have made you too powerful. Forget it."? He made his save against the party’s hold person spell. Why do they have to know it was the ring that made him immune?
Max Octavious Xavier 10-15-06, 12:00 PM	When I equip a BBEG, I will generally give him equipment worth approximately what a PC at a comparable level will have. For example, if I create a 10th level evil cleric...the cleric will have approximately 50,000gp worth of stuff (49,000 is the amount listed in the "character wealth by level" table 5-1 of the DMG). Hell, even a 10th level NPC has 16,000gp worth of gear. Note that because I equip them like a PC, I generally don't use BBEGs with a CR 3 or 4 levels higher than the PCs. The average treasure value for a 10th level encounter is 5,800gp. Now, I don't play diablo, so I have no idea what it's like...but I would generally think it a mistake to give a party of 10th level PCs 50K worth of gear in one shot. But that is just me. and He made his save against the party’s hold person spell. Why do they have to know it was the ring that made him immune? You do know DnD isn't a video game? If you don't want them to have the gear, don't give it to the villian. Give him a couple more levels, better stats and/or make his stuff 1 shot (potions, etc...). Instead of a magic sword, give him an oil of magic weapon or some such. This is why almost all of my villians are spellcasters. They can provide a challenge without lots of stuff. So why bother with the ring then, just fudge his rolls and say he saved. On the original topic. Yes, I too have fudged rolls and had the BBEG suddenly have a healing potion. Never to hurt the pcs, but to provide a fun and challenging fight. I tend to be unlucky at rolling dice and have more than 1 BBEG rollover and play dead through bad luck. My latest BBEG was a black dragon that missed 4 times (out of 15 attacks) by rolling 1's.
Loopy 10-15-06, 12:39 PM	You meant 'shouldn't', didn't you. Yep. I'm a doofus.
xanadu 10-15-06, 01:09 PM	I can't believe this is a problem. Dont get so attached to your BBEGs and cliché Hollywood phony dramatic endings. Yawn :zzz: So he died in one round. Big deal. Is there something fundamentally wrong with a caster who choose a feast or famine type spell and succeeds in taking out the BBEG? Why not let the PCs celebrate, gloat? What's wrong with the caster having her glory? Next time you make a BBEG, be sure to tweak the feats/stats/abilities to cover the basis of the party's favorite battle techniques. They like will save or dies? He has mind blank. They have grapplers? He has freedom of movement/is large/has levels of psi-warrior for grip of iron/etc.? Chargers? Difficult terrain. As for fudging die rolls, dont. Where does it end? In round one, you'll fudge the BBEG's saves because you want the fight to be dramatic. In round two, the BBEG will roll a 20 vs. the and will kill the rogue if you confirm so, feeling bad because you fudged the save, you'll fudge the confirmation. Then the someone may unexpectedly disarm his staff of doom and you cant have that so you fudge it so the BBEG win the check. Etc. At this point you are writing a novel rather than playing D & D; let the dice fall where they may. If I have a wizard who ernt through the trouble of investing a precious feat in Spell Focus (enchantment) so bad guys dont make their saves and my DM is arbitrarily nullifying my feat for his sense of drama, I leave the table. Same thing if I use a ranseur and improved disarm, improved crit and a scythe, etc. Play the game. Let the BBEG die. Allow PCs to gloat. Learn so the next BBEG presents a more formidable opponent.
orionm42 10-15-06, 01:42 PM	So why bother with the ring then, just fudge his rolls and say he saved. Either approach works. I personally believe my method is better. But every DM is different. Note I am not saying your approach is wrong...I just prefer my way of doing it. If I set a limit on the BBEG's gear at what a commensurate PC would have, I think that is at least as fair as fudging die rolls. Note that I likely would not give my example 7th level spell caster the ring anyway, because it would be too expensive even for him. I would prefer to have a 7th level wizard join forces with a 7th level cleric and other minions for the final battle. I was using it as an example of what I consider to be a reasonable approach. And, like I noted above, I find it hard to believe most DMs include every piece of equipment a monster carries as part of the awarded treasure. If I were a PC, I think I would get sick and tired of getting 5 sets of leather armor, 5 spears and 5 slings every time I killed a group of 5 kobolds.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-15-06, 02:09 PM	And, like I noted above, I find it hard to believe most DMs include every piece of equipment a monster carries as part of the awarded treasure. If I were a PC, I think I would get sick and tired of getting 5 sets of leather armor, 5 spears and 5 slings every time I killed a group of 5 kobolds. Two points. One, of course you should include every item the critter is carrying as treasure. To do otherwise would first and foremost break immersion and secondly make you an ass. Basically what it boils down to is that you want your cool BBEG to be able to do things that your players can't, and that is very lame. Two, what exactly forces the PC's to pick up every single item the kobolds have? I know I wouldn't.
Sildatorak 10-15-06, 02:32 PM	Note the ring is a major magic item. Based on the random treasure tables, the PCs should not be awarded any such items until 10th level. So it is okay to ignore the wealth guidelines when it favors the NPC, but not the PC? IMO, you're better off breaking the potion level cap on occasion. Give the bad guy a potion of free movement. Actually give him 2 so that the PC's can get a bit of the loot loving. Two, what exactly forces the PC's to pick up every single item the kobolds have? I know I wouldn't. In addition to personal desire not to haul kobold-sweat coated armor, there is a rule against picking up every single scrap of gear, too. It is called encumbrance. When that starts to kick in, it just doesn't make sense to carry around 5 gp that weighs 7.5 lbs.
orionm42 10-15-06, 02:39 PM	Two points. One, of course you should include every item the critter is carrying as treasure. To do otherwise would first and foremost break immersion and secondly make you an ass. Basically what it boils down to is that you want your cool BBEG to be able to do things that your players can't, and that is very lame. Two, what exactly forces the PC's to pick up every single item the kobolds have? I know I wouldn't. Two points. One. The name calling is not appropriate. As I said before, I am not saying how you award treasure is wrong. I was just saying I prefer how I do it. If you disagree...fine. But there is no need to get personal. Two, do you mean to tell me that every time your players kill a wizard, you always give them the wizard's spell book? Or every time they kill a fighter, they always get a set of armor, a shield, and a weapon. I would assume you would acknowledge that certain pieces of equipment are staples of any character. Take a ring of protection for example. Essentially all of my BBEGs have one. Does that mean I need to give my players a ring which ranges in value from 2,000 to 50,000gp with every treasure? Or perhaps you are saying I need to stop giving those rings to my BBEG wizards, in which case...how will they protect themselves? Or perhaps you are suggesting the players simply won't pick that ring up because...because...well, I am not sure why they wouldn't pick up an item that weighs nothing but has considerable value. In my opinion, if you are going to give interesting treasure, you need to give more than just what opponents make direct use of in combat. Perhaps you are right and you should always give the carried equipment as a component of a treasure. However, I would prefer not to give out +1 swords every five minutes. Additionally, that equipment has value. And assuming the PCs have a bag of holding or the strength to carry it away, I don’t see why they would not take the equipment and sell it.
AtmaWeapon 10-15-06, 02:55 PM	Fudging die rolls like this is what eventually leads to "Magic Missile" syndrome. If your PCs never land a spell where nothing happens if they save, then no one will ever prepare those spells, and opt for a Magic Missile effect, I.E. I cast the spell, you take <x>, no arguments. It reminds me of a cleric I ran with a DM who openly hated coup de grace attacks. After 2 sessions I simply stopped preparing hold person. When asked by my companions why I stopped prepping the arguably best cleric spell in the game, my response, in character, was "I have cast the spell, with a reasonably high potency, against everything from our hardest foes to the lowliest commoners. At no point, during the 10-15 times I cast the spell, did anyone fail to shrug off the effects. It has become obvious to me that the spell simply fails to work in this world, and as such I have decided only to prepare spells in which "luck" (add air quotes) has a lesser factor". Later on the DM approached me and admitted to, and apologized for, fudging the rolls. I explained to him that for spellcasters, your highest level slots are the crowning achievement of your class. I told him that I would probably have understood more if we were higher level and fudging hold person ment I was loosing a lesser slot, but basically, by fudging rolls like that, it's just like taking sneak attack away from a rogue by running nothing but undead, or taking away a fighter's bonus feats by limiting the list to Skill Focus: Profession. Spellcaster players expect thier highest level spells to, well, work. If you fudge them, you're taking away all thier thunder. Do not fudge. If your BBEG must be "immune" (and by "immune", I mean you're going to fudge every roll to prevent said effect from working) to some effect, then you need to give him a logical reason for so. Two, do you mean to tell me that every time your players kill a wizard, you always give them the wizard's spell book? Or every time they kill a fighter, they always get a set of armor, a shield, and a weapon. To #1, if they can find it, to #2, yes, but not always in pristine condition. I would assume you would acknowledge that certain pieces of equipment are staples of any character. Take a ring of protection for example. Essentially all of my BBEGs have one. Does that mean I need to give my players a ring which ranges in value from 2,000 to 50,000gp with every treasure? Does it mean that you need to give your PCs a ring which ranges in value from 2,000 to 50,000? No. If every single one of your BBEGs have a ring of protection, it seems that this item is far more common in your world then normal, and you should adjust the value commeasurately. Should the players get the ring? Yes. Unequivocally, Yes. Should it be worth 2-50k? No, not if everyone has one. However, I would prefer not to give out +1 swords every five minutes. ... Then don't give every villian the luxury and advantage of being armed with a +1 sword?
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-15-06, 03:02 PM	Two points. One. The name calling is not appropriate. As I said before, I am not saying how you award treasure is wrong. I was just saying I prefer how I do it. If you disagree...fine. But there is no need to get personal. Two, do you mean to tell me that every time your players kill a wizard, you always give them the wizard's spell book? Or every time they kill a fighter, they always get a set of armor, a shield, and a weapon. I would assume you would acknowledge that certain pieces of equipment are staples of any character. Take a ring of protection for example. Essentially all of my BBEGs have one. Does that mean I need to give my players a ring which ranges in value from 2,000 to 50,000gp with every treasure? Or perhaps you are saying I need to stop giving those rings to my BBEG wizards, in which case...how will they protect themselves? Or perhaps you are suggesting the players simply won't pick that ring up because...because...well, I am not sure why they wouldn't pick up an item that weighs nothing but has considerable value. In my opinion, if you are going to give interesting treasure, you need to give more than just what opponents make direct use of in combat. Perhaps you are right and you should always give the carried equipment as a component of a treasure. However, I would prefer not to give out +1 swords every five minutes. Additionally, that equipment has value. And assuming the PCs have a bag of holding or the strength to carry it away, I don’t see why they would not take the equipment and sell it. Ok, the name calling is indeed not appropriate,sorry. My point remains though, giving your NPC's items that mysteriously disappear post humously is wrong and tends to show up only with really bad Dm's (this is just my experience, not knocking you). The amount of treasure your BBEG should have has already been worked into his CR so giving him more without a CR bump is not justified. I will admit though that NPC's tend to be a joke of a challenge for their level if special consideration is not taken. When my players fight a wizard his spellbook is easily the most anticipated(sp?) treasure of them all. By far. However he will not be carrying it on his person so they will have to go through extra effort if they want it. And as a final note, your BBEG should be using consumables like potions and scrolls to good effect. Dont want the players to have that Ring of Protection? Have the BBEG use a scroll of Shield of Faith with the appropriate caster level just before the battle. This is especially true of wise and intelligent BBEG's as they can get way more bang for their buck this way if they know the PC's are coming.
Max Octavious Xavier 10-15-06, 03:10 PM	Two points. One. The name calling is not appropriate. As I said before, I am not saying how you award treasure is wrong. I was just saying I prefer how I do it. If you disagree...fine. But there is no need to get personal. Two, do you mean to tell me that every time your players kill a wizard, you always give them the wizard's spell book? Or every time they kill a fighter, they always get a set of armor, a shield, and a weapon. I would assume you would acknowledge that certain pieces of equipment are staples of any character. Take a ring of protection for example. Essentially all of my BBEGs have one. Does that mean I need to give my players a ring which ranges in value from 2,000 to 50,000gp with every treasure? Or perhaps you are saying I need to stop giving those rings to my BBEG wizards, in which case...how will they protect themselves? Or perhaps you are suggesting the players simply won't pick that ring up because...because...well, I am not sure why they wouldn't pick up an item that weighs nothing but has considerable value. In my opinion, if you are going to give interesting treasure, you need to give more than just what opponents make direct use of in combat. Perhaps you are right and you should always give the carried equipment as a component of a treasure. However, I would prefer not to give out +1 swords every five minutes. Additionally, that equipment has value. And assuming the PCs have a bag of holding or the strength to carry it away, I don’t see why they would not take the equipment and sell it.Einvaldurinn_mikli's point about immersion is very important, well said. Orionm42, how would you handle a wizard running around with Arcane Sight spell active? A spell which lets them see at a glance what items are magic. Here are some things I have done in the past without resorting to video game style "treasure drops". Some are reuseable, some should be used sparingly and with care. 1- Well, for spellcasters, never give them an item when a spell will do. 2- Make the items already owned by someone else. 3- Steal the party's items and use them against them. 4- Use tactics or minions instead of items. 5- Use item destruction stuff (Sunder, traps, whatever) before you give them other stuff. Fudging die rolls like this is what eventually leads to "Magic Missile" syndrome. If your PCs never land a spell where nothing happens if they save, then no one will ever prepare those spells, and opt for a Magic Missile effect, I.E. I cast the spell, you take <x>, no arguments. The title is "And you stab the BBEG through the heart in the first round...", you are talking about a poor DM nerfing a rule/class ability/spell unfairly. They are not the same thing. Fudging a save in the 1st couple of rounds of combat to give the pc's a good fight is a far cry from what you described.
Koji 10-15-06, 03:50 PM	Get creative-- The BBEG has a ring that, when he falls (prone or unconscious, or a command word can activate it, perhaps as a free action) teleports him into a sort of "panic room" nearby, where he has access to some limited healing and rebuffing. The room should be nearby, and the players should know about the ring beforehand. Perhaps there is a barred door, or a puzzle to get in, and the PCs must scramble to get to him before he comes back at full strength. Or maybe the BBEG's weapon is enchanted, and if he drops it, it will magically float in the air and defend him, preventing coup de graces until it's sundered or mord'd. You could also have him cast a spell before the fight that, if he dies within a certain time frame, he will return to life after a minute or two as some kind of undead.
Muspelheim 10-15-06, 04:02 PM	I very much agree with xanadu and AtmaWeapon. I would *never* get any level of immersion if I sensed the DM was fudging stuff. It's not dramatic to ensure a gruelling fight by fudging, it's the PCs being reduced to bystanders, instead of protagonists. It's a bit akin to railroading actually, in that the DM is taking matters out of the players' hands (and out of luck's, as the case is when combat is concerned). Also, if every big fight is necessarily this very dramatic affair no matter what the players do, then doesn't this somehow reduce the impact of battles which become *truly* memorable on their own terms? Of course, this can certainly lead to anti-climatic situations, but learn from them and try to build the encounter better next time. If the players actually outsmart the bad guys so they have a substantial advantage going into the fight, they *should* have the chance to reap the benefits of their planning, which *can* lead to them ending the fight very quickly. Now, if this situation arises without the players doing anything to obtain such an advantage, you should probably analyze your encounter and see what the reasons were for the PCs success (using a single BBEG with no minions or henchmen is usually a recipe for disaster, for instance). I certainly understand that it can be frustrating to have a planned, climatic encounter go sour because it was too easy for the PCs, but let the PCs have their moment of glory when skill and luck go their way. Otherwise the risk is that the line between participants and bystanders starts to blur.
RetiredThief 10-15-06, 04:38 PM	Just because he's the BBEG your players are aware of doesn't mean he doesn't have a boss. You could have a backup, surprise BBEG ready, just incase your climactic battle isn't climactic enough. Or, you could have your BBEG have an unexpected characteristic the players weren't aware of. Movies are full of mundane seeming evil bosses who, when they are about to be finally defeated, reveal their true natures as demons from hell, etc... There are also plenty of bully bosses. They are bold when surrounded by minions and they have the upper hand, but when validly confronted are revealed as weak and cowardly. If the players have fought through a lot to get to such a BBEG, having him cave easily may be fitting.
Senevri 10-15-06, 04:49 PM	BBEGs you want to keep... should probably be Ghosts, Liches, be astral travelling from another plane to Material or to just have donated enough to warrant a Raise/Resurrection...
Midnight_v 10-15-06, 04:52 PM	Seconded. Never fudge. You're the DM. You can't grow attatched to any one character or deny pc's thier ablilties cause you don't like this or that. I mean you could but that doesn't make it right. You removed save or dies in they're entire from D&D? Then you've fundamentally altered D&D thats a huge part of being a spellcaster. It like this, If you're not going to let them "win" even though they've "won" a battle then why have stats for BBEG at all, just let them roll dice and have him dramatically do cool things and after a set number arounds you give him his dramatic explosion finish. I mean you can rule 0 the Phb and DMG anytime you want (of course I would never agree to that) but it's your world knock yourself out.. . ... .. Fudgind die rolls, violates the DM player trust. How would you like it if they were fudging die rolls themselves? Ahh.. so fudging = cheating... okay yeah. Lastly, theres no reason the guy can't become undead or templated or whatever to be immune to those things but ... sometime you just gotta let the players shine.... ....then bring the BBEG back as a revenant... Edit: you can always aske for help bulding your BBEG over on the Char-ops board where they'll make you a cleric that Build wise hoses your players down.
Reversefigure4 10-15-06, 05:41 PM	Or maybe the BBEG's weapon is enchanted, and if he drops it, it will magically float in the air and defend him, preventing coup de graces until it's sundered or mord'd. Quoted For Fun. That's an excellent idea, one I'll nick. And consumable items are the way around giving the PCs uber treasure. All the BBEG needs is money and a 1st level cleric or wizard minion (hell, even a Rogue with UMD) to be able to afford all the scrolls of Freedom of Movement he could ever want.
xanadu 10-15-06, 06:49 PM	The title is "And you stab the BBEG through the heart in the first round...", you are talking about a poor DM nerfing a rule/class ability/spell unfairly. They are not the same thing. Fudging a save in the 1st couple of rounds of combat to give the pc's a good fight is a far cry from what you described. Yes it is the same thing and it is wrong. Are we playing a game or is the DM telling me a story? If I use "cheese" and remove the cliche drama, why punish me? Maybe I spent the last two sessions preparing a "cheese" approach and you just take it away? You have any idea how frustrating it is when a wizards casts his most powerful spell and it does nothing? Yeah, that's fun :rolleyes: No I want the one round kill if it is earned legitimately. I want his minions and bystanders quaking in fear of me, he who destroys the indestructable. Get a real BBEG next session. Learn. If the DM is going to fudge his roll and remove PCs from the game, why play? Do the PCs get to fudge their rolls as well?
WayneTheGame 10-15-06, 07:02 PM	The difference is that the DM is allowed to fudge in order to keep the game entertaining. The player is not.
Cifer 10-15-06, 07:10 PM	Yes it is the same thing and it is wrong. Are we playing a game or is the DM telling me a story? I'd say it's a bit of both, actually. Would it really feel good to you (or good to your firends) if you went in to a BBEG, won initiative and slinged a Save-or-die against which said BBEG gets a 1? I'd say it is the DM's mandate to make the story challenging. You said yourself that he should "get a real BBEG next session", probably making him immune to the tactics just used. Now where is the difference in making him immune against SoD before or after the fight begins? Are you playing against your DM in that you have to feel you outsmarted him? If the DM is going to fudge his roll and remove PCs from the game, why play? We are not talking about "removing PCs from the game" - only lessening their impact on a specific attack. If I attack my PCs with a golem without the mage and rogue players knowing beforehand, there is a good chance they will feel useless during the fight - is this suddenly better than "removing them from the game" by fudging? In general, it should of course be known to the PCs when a tactic usually taken for granted doesn't work and there should be a reason for as well as a way around it.
orionm42 10-15-06, 07:11 PM	Ok, the name calling is indeed not appropriate,sorry. Apology accepted and no hard feelings. :) To #1, if they can find it, to #2, yes, but not always in pristine condition. What I am trying to say is 1) a spellbook has considerable value 2) an antagonist wizard is likely to have many of the same spells in his book as the PCs. Therefore, while the PCs may pick up one or two new spells, the book for the most part will be "ho-hum." Additionally, the value of the book and those duplicate spells would need to be factored into the value of the treasure. Now, I would rather give the PCs a scroll or two scribed by the wizard with those new spells and then give them another unique item which will be more useful to them. Why give the PCs something they will definitely sell anyway? It is the same with the fighter and his stock gear. Let's face it...most fighters will have protective equipment and a magic weapon at higher levels. Rather than give the PCs the same old stuff, which they are likely to sell anyway, why not just give them more unique items they can use but which may not be useful to the antagonist in combat. This all seems very sensible to me, and yet I seem to be the only one taking this position. Ahhh well, I always was a little different. :D Does it mean that you need to give your PCs a ring which ranges in value from 2,000 to 50,000? No. If every single one of your BBEGs have a ring of protection, it seems that this item is far more common in your world then normal, and you should adjust the value commeasurately. I disagree here. Rings of protection are a common game mechanic for increasing the AC of antagonists. Case in point...look at the NPC spell casters in the DMG. Essentially all of them have one. Just because such rings (and other means...bracers, amulets of natural armor, etc.) are how most spell casters gain AC, that does not mean they should be less valuable. Then don't give every villian the luxury and advantage of being armed with a +1 sword? So don't give fighters magically enhanced equipment at 3rd level and up? Would it be better to give one fighter a +1 sword, and the next a +1 club, and the next a +1 scimitar, etc. Higher level fighters need magical melee weapons. It is as simple as that. To me, treasures with one magical melee weapon after another (even if they are different weapons) are boring. And before you say..."just use creatures with natural weapons," most of my adventures take place in areas dominated by human populations. So many of my combat encounters involve humanoids.
xanadu 10-15-06, 08:27 PM	The difference is that the DM is allowed to fudge in order to keep the game entertaining. The player is not. And who made you final arbiter of a multiplayer game of what is fun? You are a ostensibly a neutral judge, not one of the Classical Greek Olympian gods. I can most assure you I will not have much fun - in fact I'd be quite ****** off - if you arbitrarily decided to gimp my character all for the sake of entertainment from your persepctive.
xanadu 10-15-06, 08:40 PM	Would it really feel good to you (or good to your firends) if you went in to a BBEG, won initiative and slinged a Save-or-die against which said BBEG gets a 1? Yes. Why do I memorize/pick such spells then? I love the flavor of wrack spell from Spell Compendium. Fail your save and the enemy does nothing writhing on the ground in pain. That's satisfaction and I must say very enjoyable :D I'd say it is the DM's mandate to make the story challenging. You said yourself that he should "get a real BBEG next session", probably making him immune to the tactics just used. Now where is the difference in making him immune against SoD before or after the fight begins? Simple. I got the immense satisfaction of watching my enemy writhing on the floor in pain once. You (i.e. villains) adapt. Next time it doesn't work. I adapt. That's cat and mouse. That's fun. If I wanted artifical cliche endings, I will go to the movies on a friday night instead of play (?) DnD. We are not talking about "removing PCs from the game" - only lessening their impact on a specific attack. You are not lessening, you are removing. Why do I have that attack if I'm not allowed to use it? Please, proper communication between players and DM makes for a fun game. If I attack my PCs with a golem without the mage and rogue players knowing beforehand, there is a good chance they will feel useless during the fight - is this suddenly better than "removing them from the game" by fudging? If I'm the mage, I will caste grease and watch the **** poor reflex saving golem fall on his ass allowing for the fighter to have a massive power attack while the rogue flanks and aids another. If you allow players to use their abilities, they might surprise you. But no, we have holier than thou DMs banning spells, nerfing power attack, etc. because their narrow vision of what is fun prevents the game from what is possible in DnD. DMs should follow rules instead of imposing their moralities and ideas of what is fun upon the players. It is not fun being on the receiving end of such condescending treatment. If your players smile and agree to you in front of your face, they most likely are doing so because it is the only game in town.
WayneTheGame 10-15-06, 09:04 PM	And who made you final arbiter of a multiplayer game of what is fun? You are a ostensibly a neutral judge, not one of the Classical Greek Olympian gods. Check the DMG.. it specifically states that the Dungeon Master cannot cheat. I can most assure you I will not have much fun - in fact I'd be quite ****** off - if you arbitrarily decided to gimp my character all for the sake of entertainment from your persepctive. As would I. And if you bothered to read what I said initially, that is not what I said at all. I said I had no problem fudging rolls to make the game more enjoyable, whether that be to save a PC from a premature death due to bad luck OR to save a BBEG from being decimated in one round. It's called fun for EVERYBODY, not just the players. As long as a DM does not abuse his power by fudging rolls in order to screw the players over, there should be no problem whatsoever. Fudging rolls either way in order to keep the game exciting is part of the DM's job.
TwiddleStootch 10-15-06, 09:27 PM	Wow :D this thread really took off!! Jsut to throw my voice in: I too am against fudging. I ahev only done it, hmmm, once or twice I think, and both times was to save the PCs from a TPK. That is why I made this thread, I wanted a legal way to protect my BBEG. I didn't want to fudge.
rivaltuna 10-15-06, 10:19 PM	that's not always a option. for me there are sevral reason I can't: 1) the players ahve already met the BBEG, so i can't jsut up and change it and 2) my BBEG only has 14 HD, meaning a combat rank of 6 as a skeleton. the party will be facing him at LV 13 thanks for the idea, but I am afraid it doesn't apply to this one in paticular And as a Vampire, he would have 21 HD.
xanadu 10-16-06, 02:15 AM	You know, I pride myself in being able to analyze both sides of an argument but I must admit I am having trouble following the DM fudging dice theory is not cheating or deliberately screwing the PC or somehow making it more fun for "everyone". I *know* as a PC if I roll a 6 and announce it as a 16 that is cheating. When a DM does the same thing it's not :confused: I *know* that when a DM won't let me disarm the staff of doom when I succeed, send the BBEG writhing on the ground in pain when his fails his save because I invested half my resources into making the DC high, or let me crit with a leap attacking scythe (again investing half my resources) I am being deliberately screwed. Question: why do you allow these (CORE only!) tactics into the game if they only work sometimes? Question #2: What's wrong with the players having fun because they smoked a BBEG? Why can't DMs let players bask in their glory when they have earned it? Deciding life and death on some subjective whim of what consitutes fun and ignoring how a great game plays out - especially if it gimps a PC - it by reasonable definition abusing a DMs power.
ArcTan 10-16-06, 02:45 AM	Honestly? Fudge it. Just lie and say he made his save, or lie and retroactively say he had a magical protection against that spell. It's cheating. Big deal. You're the DM. Your primary goal is making sure everyone has fun; strict adherence to the rules is secondary. And something that deflates all the drama of the scene in one fell swoop ain't that much fun.
ArcTan 10-16-06, 02:49 AM	You know, I pride myself in being able to analyze both sides of an argument but I must admit I am having trouble following the DM fudging dice theory is not cheating or deliberately screwing the PC or somehow making it more fun for "everyone". I *know* as a PC if I roll a 6 and announce it as a 16 that is cheating. When a DM does the same thing it's not :confused: The DM is not exactly playing the game. He's acting as the referee and game board, basically, and his goal is not really to make the game "fair" (since, after all, there's no real competition or final winner) but to make the game an interesting experience. Because, of course, in the end D&D is *not* a game -- no real game has rules so easily altered and boundaries so easily pushed around at the whim of the referee, and no real game completely lacks win conditions or a clear definition of who's competing against whom. D&D is a collaborative storytelling experience that has gamelike characteristics that motivate progress and engagement. I *know* that when a DM won't let me disarm the staff of doom when I succeed, send the BBEG writhing on the ground in pain when his fails his save because I invested half my resources into making the DC high, or let me crit with a leap attacking scythe (again investing half my resources) I am being deliberately screwed. Only if you think the point of the game is to "win" and therefore feel "screwed" if things get too difficult. If he purposely increases the CR of the BBEG ahead of time to make things more difficult for you, is that being "deliberately screwed"? If he intends to do this but forgets, so that he starts adding HD and upping saves in the middle of combat without telling you, is this *still* being screwed? In some more fundamental way than if he'd done his paperwork ahead of time? Question: why do you allow these (CORE only!) tactics into the game if they only work sometimes? A better question is what kind of idiot I'd have to be to let in a tactic that worked all the time, turning the game into a boring slog of the same repeated actions over and over. Question #2: What's wrong with the players having fun because they smoked a BBEG? Why can't DMs let players bask in their glory when they have earned it? Because when it's too easy to kill the BBEG, that means the DM screwed up during his prep time. The players didn't "earn" anything -- the DM made a mistake and they exploited it. You're acting like a good D&D game is a competition between the DM and the players to see who's smarter, when really it's a slow, steady manipulation of the players by the DM to give them tailored challenges that they beat at a predictable rate while exploring the story at the same time. Deciding life and death on some subjective whim of what consitutes fun and ignoring how a great game plays out - especially if it gimps a PC - it by reasonable definition abusing a DMs power. No. The reasonable definition of a DM abusing his power is a DM doing things that make the game a less fun experience for his players. It's not a "great game" if PCs unexpectedly deflate drama and tense moments and stuff and the game turns from a challenge to an easy, tedious slog.
Shoujo 10-16-06, 08:25 AM	Instead of fudging for the BBEG or player, could maybe use action points? You get the whole climactic thing if need be and it'd be a proper system that both players and DMs can take advantage of.
Stev Beren 10-16-06, 08:29 AM	that's not always a option. for me there are sevral reason I can't: 1) the players ahve already met the BBEG, so i can't jsut up and change it and 2) my BBEG only has 14 HD, meaning a combat rank of 6 as a skeleton. the party will be facing him at LV 13 thanks for the idea, but I am afraid it doesn't apply to this one in paticular Actually, at least as far as beign undead, I see no reason you CAN'T change it, unless there is somethign specific in the background. UNdead is something you BECOME After all.
WayneTheGame 10-16-06, 08:35 AM	ArcTan hit the nail on the head. I don't know about you, but I as a player would feel disappointed if the "climactic" encounter with the BBEG ended in one round due to a lucky crit (which, admittedly is the hardest thing to fudge since you can't say "It doesn't work" or that DOES screw over the player) or a natural 1 vs. a save-or-die spell. IMO the "final boss fight" should be the one that lasts the longest, most intense battle of the campaign, since it's probably the last one as well. D&D is not about "winning". If you feel "screwed" because your DM wanted a tough, cinematic battle and you tried to end it in one round, then maybe you need to rethink why you play D&D. The DM has the right and, dare I say it, the responsibility to make the game entertaining; if that means fudging dice behind the screen or arbitrarily giving a BBEG extra healing items because a PC nearly killed him with a lucky crit, then so be it. The players should be having more fun with an exciting battle than being able to one-hit kill anything they meet.
OgreMonk 10-16-06, 08:57 AM	Things most BBEG's need: 1. Fortification armor or some sort of DR/Immune to crits/immune to sneak attacks 2. Some sort of immunity to mind affecting magic 3. SR in some form 4. Minions 5. More minions 6. Even more minions. 1-3 can also be done by the application of a homebrew template if you want to keep this type of equipment out of PC hands. I often use an available to NPCs only template.
RobbyPants 10-16-06, 09:09 AM	Beware solving problems like this through the use of equipment. The players will kill your BBEG, and then loot. Hard. Do you want your party running around with a ring of counterspells, armour of heavy fortification and an amulet of mind spell immunity - from one fight? Yeah, I've ruined a campaign once that way! :banghead: -------------- The best advice I can give to improving the lifespan of your BBEGs is preperation. If they have some warning the PCs are coming it gives them two advantages: A bit of time to buff up (spell, potions, or what-not) Immunity to being surprised. (How many BBEGs have fallen in the surprise round!) I would warn you against making all your BBEGs immune to crits though... ...it begins to become a form of railroading, and the players will resent you for it. A lot of times, clever tactics and minions can go a long way.
Alac_Gane 10-16-06, 09:16 AM	To both the idea of putting space between the BBEG and your players and for a dramatic battle, use the environment. BBEG's always have sweet pads. :king: Some ideas for feng shui: pits of lava/acid grinding and spinning gears/saws/wheels/spheres/whatever in the ground/wall spiked pillars/walls/floors glyphs of warding/altar(s) of consecration/doorframes of enthrall [the latter so that your BBEG's monologue isn't interrupted, and perhaps the PCs could be captured!] pirhana-infested pools giant spider-infested niches industrial fans on the ceiling with flagstones of reverse gravity underneath flagstones of reverse gravity all over the place that have spikes on them pits/cages/gates in the ground/wall/ceiling with monsters that have long-ranged attacks pet monsters chained to the wall/floor floors/walls/pillars made of zombies [works well with that consecration!] tesla coils even artistic gelatinous cubes and mimics and medusa trophy heads [my favorites] in his throne room... GO NUTS!! Even an incline or a set of stairs can work in the one who has the higher ground's favor. Not only does this give your characters a harder time touching him [for example, with that flesh to stone], but it gives the BBEG an edge in that his minions can attempt to bull-rush them into it, or vice-versa, for very cool and dramatic effects. However, indeed, have your BBEG come prepared. Let him have boots of dimension door to get out of the fray when he needs to. SR/DR is beautiful, especially if he's just completed the rites to having a really evil template bestowed upon him. Have him fight/cast defensively when the odds are against him. Give him some freedom of movement. Let him animate dead or magic circle vs. chaos/law/good/evil or meld into stone or protection from energy [especially for his environmental hazards] or [deeper] darkness or unholy blight [evil domain spell] or invisibility [trickery domain or potion] or sanctuary or even a plane shift if he needs to make even a temporary getaway. If worse comes to worst, and your BBEG is about to die, have him take his last action to TOSS HIMSELF OR AS MANY OF HIS BEST MAGIC ITEMS INTO THE HARMFUL ENVIRONS AS YOU FEEL NECESSARY. ["You want this?..." :dangles amulet over pool of lava... PLOOP:] If he can't use 'em, no one can... even if he does get AoO'd from everyone and ends up crumpling to his knees and tumbling into that pit of acid or getting eaten by his own pet basilisk that he practically starved [the poor thing!]. Ohhhh, your PCs will never let you live that down. :plotting: But DON'T be afraid to let him die if the PCs get some good rolls. Otherwise, you'll never be able to get that suspension of disbelief into your players' heads... Don't feel bad. I personally killed a six-headed hydra in 'less than 14 seconds' practically single-handedly, and even my DM still thinks that my tactics were SWEET. :smirk: After all, he might get the last laugh when he's made into a powerful undead LATER, or when his powerful lackey-turned-would-have-been-traitor comes to the throne room, looking to slay him, only to see the PC's... ... or his neighborhood black dragon friend decides to perch on his balcony looking for the BBEG, unhappy about his crown of status suddenly warning the dragon that the BBEG is dead... :evillaugh
Qube 10-16-06, 09:28 AM	and to answer it now, yes, I have banned all save or die spells in my games. including sleep? what do you do against vorpal? thats not save or die? :D you know: sh*t happens. i mean if your PC's cant kill BBEG in 1 round, non of your enemies should be able to kill the PC's in one round, not even when the wizard with 8 con fails his reflex save vs a fireball, or get critical hit by a ranged touch spell. (fair is fair) in such situations i add some minions (2 or 3 'generals') attacking the PCs from behind or from unexplored doors. the players like it, because then encouter and cliffhanger (and boostspells) aren't waisted. + for all the times they have done it (= once), they never figured it out.
Rancorous_Fool 10-16-06, 11:48 AM	First: Don't fudge! Second: There are plenty of options for immunity to annoying save-or-disabled. Contingency, rings of counter spells, fortification, Prestige classes, SAVES(give him 2 levels of blackguard, one in pious templar and a ring of evasion), Spell resistance, cover, concealment, mirror image, invisbility, clone, simulcrum, possession +planar binding, readied dispells, freedom of movement, non-detection, spell turning. If your BBEG can't plan, then he isn't a BBEG hes a wannabe.
DarknessEternal 10-16-06, 01:11 PM	Fudging is a euphemism for cheating. It's that simple. If you, as a DM, cheat, expect your players to cheat. You lead by example.
Sulaco 10-16-06, 02:05 PM	My advice: don't. Do not make your BBEG immune to the possibile actions of the PCs. It will only serve to annoy them. The best option IMO is to have a backup plan, a scenario to go with if the BBEG should die too fast to create a satisfying culmination to an adventure. If the BBEG drops and everyone is happy, then it stands as-is. If the BBEG drops and it feels very anticlimactic then you go to plan B, a backup system to extend the encounter and make it a better ending to the story arc. This Plan B can be anything: the BBEG has a special item that raises him as an undead; the one you killed was an illusion, a bound demon manifests on his death to deal with his killers, hidden minions rally to avenge their leaders, whatever. One way to run it, the party is never in mortal peril after Plan B is activated. The encounter as-designed ended when they killed the BBEG, even if it was not as expected. Plan B is essentially just there to offset a potentially unsatisying moment. The PCs won't die once Plan B is activated and XP is calculated only up until the BBEG dropped. I have done this a coupl etimes and it often leads to some of the most memorable moments in a game.
orionm42 10-16-06, 02:47 PM	Fudging is a euphemism for cheating. It's that simple. If you, as a DM, cheat, expect your players to cheat. You lead by example. Wasn't it President Nixon who first said..."If the President does it, it is not against the law?" :D Can the DM really cheat if he is the one who makes the rules? The question is somewhat rhetorical.
Judging Eagle 10-16-06, 02:49 PM	Check the DMG.. it specifically states that the Dungeon Master cannot cheat. No, the DM can't specifically cheat. However, to cheat yourself, or the players out of something that they have acheived is silly. Also, it only exposes a poor DM. The poor DM scripts things, and railroads everything, from storyline to combat. The PCs are pawns in this type of game. Even a powerful pawn feels like a pawn, until they get at least a semblance of free choice. this type of game is best represented by Movies, Books and a great deal of Computer and Video Games. DMs who consistantly fudge rolls and railroad story actually fall into the above category, they dont' realize that Books are very close to Video Games with regards to internal protagonist freedoms of choice. A good DM has the PCs actively engage in the world while the DM write up where the group is headed to next. The PCs in this type of game are actually protagonists, they interact with the world and the world is affected by their actions. There are no real ways to quantify this type of game. Books and movies cannot match the internal protagonist freedoms of choice that this type of game provides. I think that the next closest thing to this are the Wasteland, Fallout and Fallout 2 games. As for all the DMs that claim that they do things in the name of "fun": 1. Are you a telepathic person? If you are, then you would know if the players are having "fun". If you are not, only you in your foolishness are 'having fun'. 2. If you are not a telepath I truly hope that you do the following: Do you ask the players if they want it to be fun by doing what you want to do? How much do you want to bet that the players don't want to be shafted if they pulled something off, and the BBeG failed their save, but you decided "in the name of fun" to screw over the PC who just succeeded at something? Would your players have fun if they found out that you were cheating them out of an opportunity for their abilities to work, because you didn't want them to? 3. Are you an uncreative and unintelligent DM who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag? Then you may want to railroad the 'story' to fit your narrow mind and fudge dice rolls as much as you want so that you can foster feelings of frustration and turn the game into a 'competition' which it really isn't. The key problem here is one thing that people seem to forget. The DM is repsonsible for making sure that the PCs get a fair fight out of the enemies. The DM is not supposed to want his BBeG's to survive or live. The DM is supposed to want the BBeG to fight to the best of its abilities and then die to the PCs. Let me say this again: "The DM is not supposed to want his BBeG's to survive or live. The DM is supposed to want the BBeG to fight to the best of its abilities and then die to the PCs." If that death takes one round or four months, that's fine. The PCs did their job as did the DM. The only thing that the DM should truly care for the preservation includes the following: -Nations -The balance of power between the good/evil planes (if the PCs are that hard to challenge, use Demons; and undead and constructs; they' in the MMs for a reason, they're there to challenge PCs (who don't pack Golembane Scarabs and have buffed to the **** turninglord clerics and demon-hunter ranger/paladins; but I digress). -Organizations In short, the DM is suppoed to care about what the larger meta-entities do to survive, not individuals within them. Anything less is needless micromanagement reserved for narrower minds. The PCs can kill and slay all numbers of lower level grunts and enemy agents as well as independant individual BBeGs and your game will remain the same. The gloves come off when they threaten power-groups, but that's what actually makes sense. Also, I should add that just because someone dies doesn't meant that they can't be ressed or worse. Few PCs are smart enough to use Trap the Soul to prevent this from happening.
Judging Eagle 10-16-06, 02:54 PM	My advice: don't. Do not make your BBEG immune to the possibile actions of the PCs. It will only serve to annoy them. The best option IMO is to have a backup plan, a scenario to go with if the BBEG should die too fast to create a satisfying culmination to an adventure. If the BBEG drops and everyone is happy, then it stands as-is. If the BBEG drops and it feels very anticlimactic then you go to plan B, a backup system to extend the encounter and make it a better ending to the story arc. This Plan B can be anything: the BBEG has a special item that raises him as an undead; the one you killed was an illusion, a bound demon manifests on his death to deal with his killers, hidden minions rally to avenge their leaders, whatever. One way to run it, the party is never in mortal peril after Plan B is activated. The encounter as-designed ended when they killed the BBEG, even if it was not as expected. Plan B is essentially just there to offset a potentially unsatisying moment. The PCs won't die once Plan B is activated and XP is calculated only up until the BBEG dropped. I have done this a coupl etimes and it often leads to some of the most memorable moments in a game. This is something that is acceptable. The end result is the same, but a longer encounter occurs. Straight out auto-saving the BBeG is poor form. Edit: I mean, in the sense that the PCs aren't being punished by the DM's choice to extend the encounter. I'm all for having a great rolicking good time and having a challenge for the PCs as both a player and a DM (although, my most memorable encounters have been ones where the dice landed badly for me and then I learned that I need to get an AC of 43+ and 80-100+ HP if I want to survive from lvl 6 and onwards in DnD). So, you can 'save the BBeG' as long as the PCs don't really suffer for it. Anything that is expended should be recoverable at the end of the fight and ability drain/negative levels/expensive consumables should all be refunded in sume manner (more loot, or NPCs that wan to reward the PCs for their task and will replance some of the supplies that were spent or pay to have their above the norm injuries and ailments removed.
xanadu 10-17-06, 01:21 AM	Fudging is a euphemism for cheating. It's that simple. If you, as a DM, cheat, expect your players to cheat. You lead by example. I could not agree more.
xanadu 10-17-06, 01:29 AM	ArcTan hit the nail on the head. I don't know about you, but I as a player would feel disappointed if the "climactic" encounter with the BBEG ended in one round due to a lucky crit Question: Why does your definition of fun get prioritized over mine? Can't answer that without appearing to be a domineering, insensitive, selfish, dictatorial snob can you :P The players should be having more fun with an exciting battle than being able to one-hit kill anything they meet. See above. I believe the DM should play by the rules, be better prepared, not cheat, or try to adlib his pisspoor DMing but that's just my opinion; apparently I'm in the minority in wanting a fair game. I've had a number of BBEGs eat the dust and hardly scratch the PCs. Rather than steal the spotlight, I - perish the thought - made the next BBEG encounter more problematic to the PCs by introducing environmental factors, minions, templates, etc.
xanadu 10-17-06, 02:05 AM	The DM...is acting as the referee and game board, basically...to make the game an interesting experience. I do not find arbitrary and whimsical rules/dice/creature changes "interesting," I find them annoying as all hell. If you are going to decide X will not work because it disrupts your idea of "interesting," at least have the curtosey and the guts to tell me beforehand so I can change my spells, feats, character, etc. Only if you think the point of the game is to "win" and therefore feel "screwed" if things get too difficult. No. Nixing my character abilities will **** me off regardless of my motivations. I will safely assume I hold the vast majority PC opinion here. blah blah and he starts adding HD and upping saves in the middle of combat without telling you, is this *still* being screwed? In some more fundamental way than if he'd done his paperwork ahead of time? An emphatic YES. So I have a pisspoor DM who can't properly prepare which means that every week I have to brace myself for on-the-fly-make-it-up-as-you-go DMing? BAD DM. Period. You underestimated the party? Learn...you know become a better DM rather than getting in the habit of cheating...and make the next encounter more difficult. Because when it's too easy to kill the BBEG, that means the DM screwed up during his prep time. The players didn't "earn" anything -- the DM made a mistake and they exploited it. No. Sometimes the players come up with an excellent strategy that nerfs the BBEG. Sometimes BBEGs roll 1s. I roll 1s. My DM does not give me "rerolls" nor do I ask for them. The reasonable definition of a DM abusing his power is a DM doing things that make the game a less fun experience for his players. So you agree with me. Cool :D Cheating is abusing his powers because as a player it pisses me off, encourages counter cheating, and robs PCs of legitimate accomplishments, thus making the game a less fun experience.
barret3b 10-17-06, 08:39 AM	I figure if it is made known that the DM has the power to make such decisions (like fudging) and the players trust his or her judgement, there is no problem.
aotrscommander 10-17-06, 09:21 AM	I feel I must speak up and say that fudging is not automatically bad. I am of the school of thought that a BBEG fight (especially the one at the end of the campaign) should be dramatic and lengthy, rather than ended in a single round. I am not an off-cuff DM. I have to prepare the campaign before we start playing, and it takes me hours of work. The players by comparsion, only have to provide a background when asked occasionally, and only have to turn up every week. So a BBEG fight is an important part of the game. So I endeavour to make them interesting and climatic as they should be and should that nessecitate some fudging, then so be it. When you get down to it, dice rolls are just a method of determening what happens. I roll my dice behind the screen. Always, regardless of what I'm rolling for. Aside from their own dice rolls, the players do not need to know how the results are obtained, only what they are. It would be entirely plausible for the DM to make very roll for every character himself, but virtually all players like to roll their dice and 'influence' the game (not to mention it would increase the DM's work load immeasurably!) In a ideal situation, it shouldn't matter who rolls the dice as the number should always be random (in practise, of course, you get people with good/bad dice or good/bad luck, but there you go!) I view a one-sided, short fight the same way I do a one-sided wargame. A massecre is not a good game. When I play a wargame, I don't care whether I win or lose, so long as the boy count is high. If I wipe the floor with someone (or vice-versa) it leaves me feeling that I didn't play a very good game. It's not fun. And I view the BBEG fights, being the most important, climatic ones, in the same way. If it ends prematurely, I've failed in my job as DM to make it fun - for everyone, because you can garentee that there will be one player who didn't get to do anything useful (the chances of every member of the party getting a go and contributing to the fight in one round is fairly small). (If I want to go and massecre something, I go and play a computer game. I get my walk-over urges playing Civ IV and rolling over spearmen with my modern armour, slowly, while laughing.) I don't believe the DM can cheat, because you can't 'win' D&D. As a DM, I am within my rights to hold the dice above my head, and say 'rattle, rattle, rattle, it's a 20'. However, the mark of a good DM, is that you should not ever have to use that priviledge. Most of the fudging I do comes in the PC's favour (when there is a danger of a TPK, for example, sometimes, the monster miss more often than they should, or occasionally let their guard down and make tactically poor choices; otherwise reducing ciritcal effects in systems like Rolemaster so as to injure, rather than kill). I do not generally kill PCs off without there being a good reason*, because it is a pain in my backside fitting a new character in the party. (Bear in mind we swap around parties quite often, so in 17 years of gaming with Warhammer/D&D of various editions, the highest level- group we've ever had is 14th (a current 3.5 party), and the average level is below 10, so raise dead etc are not as easily come by.) Generally, though, I usually manage to provide a good challenge. The only time I've had to fudge are during fights when I've seriously under-estimated the party's ability to deal damage. (Save-or-dies are not usually the problem). In these cases, I usually max out the hit points of the combatant. (Or if using a non-D&D system, double them). I do not fudge saving throws except in very, very, very rare occasions**, and I never fudge monster attacks rolls to hit, rather than to miss. (I now use a system of Fate Points in my games nowadays (more or less regardless of what system I use); these basically are awarded by story, and are a 'the-thing-that-killed-you-doesn't-kill-you-but-leaves-you-stable-on-minus-nine'. Then, simply, I don't have to hold back, since the players have a not-get-killed card, which works all round; less fudging from me, and the same sense of danger for the PCs, achieving the same effect.) What I will not do, though, is start adding extra things (like equipment, changing spells or adding special abilities). For me, the most important aspect is internal consistancy. All elements, including the unrealistic ones, must be portrayed in a reasonable, beleivable fashion. If something is outside the rules (usually for story reasons) there will be a credible explanation of how and why, even if the PCs will never learn it. Things do not 'just happen' in my games. So, if the BBEG is immune to something, there will be a reason why, thought out long before hand. The very most important thing about fudging, though - and this cannot ever be overstated: The players should never, ever know or even suspect you are doing it. If they do, then you're not being subtle enough. To re-iterate the point on topic though, to avoid the nessecity of fudging to extend the combat, you need to break up the PCs capability to concentrate on a single target. Minions, terrain, minions, traps, minions, disposable items and minions. Especially support minions; a secondary cleric with a Dispel Magic can ruin the PC's one-hit kills when the BBEG gets paralysed, but the fighter can't get up because of all the skeletons, and the cleric dispels the effect on his next action. In any case, expereince has shown me that a co-ordinated attack by even moderatly-low level chaff, properly supported, should give the PCs pause; with a BBEG to top if off, you should have your PCs sweating through the whole encounter. Which is what you want, after all. *Note the word 'generally'. This means that, should anyone be so stupid as to start believing, "he'll never kill us off" they will find out rather shortly to the contrary. Just because I don't doesn't mean I won't! **I still haven't got over the party taking out a 20th level cleric in round two by use of Baleful Polymorph, for example. That was a real downer. Still, the Evil chicken managed to get off a whole point of damage before being summarily splattered!
Qube 10-17-06, 09:56 AM	something that hasn't been addresed yet in fudging with the BBEG: the BBEG probabily dies because the wizard has casted his most powerfull spell (say disintegrate, save-or-die, ...). so by saying the BBEG automaticly lives from that attack, that is like saying: "and the BBEG is immune to the wizards strongest spell" the wizard is now much much weaker: he waisted his most valueable resource (his strongest spell, wich he can't cast again) for no reason other then "the DM didn't like the effect". now the wiz is stuck probably with a lower level damaging spell as most 'powerfull' spell. oh and how do you fudge a vs. vorpal sword? that you can't fugde the natural 20, only the confirm hit (by possibly boosting the BBEG's AC; now you rendered the fighter virtually useless if his secondery roll was high).
Hammith 10-17-06, 10:51 AM	Hi, my name is Hammith, I'm a DM and I fudge rolls. Many of you seem to be against this practice in this particular instance because it removes the players from the game. Ok. So what happens when the mage rolls a 20 for initiative, casts disintigrate, and the rest of the six man party doesn't get to go? I think that removes them just as much. However, I think the way you're handling the issue is slightly skewed. There is no right or wrong answer here. Well, that's not entirely true, there is a right answer. It's called asking your players what they want. If they don't mind killing off the BBEG in a single round, let them if they actually manage to do it with the right rolls. If they don't, fudge it so the fight lasts a while. Personally my players are masochists and like the fights to last until they're barely alive and then come back with an amazing win, so I let them. Most of the time anyway.
Caver451 10-17-06, 11:05 AM	If you fear your BBEG is going to be killed right away by the party, your BBEG probably fears the same thing. Unless he's a dullard, I doubt he is going to want to go toe to toe with a party he knows is going to take him out in six seconds flat. I suggest while you're planning the encounter, you think along those lines. What would YOU do if you were the BBEG knowing you were about to face such a strong attacking force? A Wall of Force spell can shield your BBEG from most attacks, including a Disintegration spell. This will allow his minions to attack the party, while he remains relatively safe himself. Better yet, now the party needs to figure out how to get rid of this Wall of Force. Your wizard wants to use his Disintegration spell against the BBEG, but now he has a choice: should he use it to disrupt the Wall of Force, or find some other way to get to the BBEG and save the Disintegration spell? Perhaps once the minions are dead, and the Wall of Force has been dispelled, your BBEG opens a Phase Door and escapes into another room, leaving the players to find the long way around. If your BBEG can't open a Phase Door, then perhaps he departs through a regular door which is trapped, forcing the players to deal with the trap before continuing the pursuit. The players continue to get closer, but are never quite able to engage your BBEG directly. The party slowly weakens, as they are having to deal with minions, traps, and other trickery. Finally, they corner your BBEG, and the final fight with the somewhat weakened party will be more fair. Even if they do manage to kill him within a round, at this point, they party will have a great deal of satisfaction from finally cornering him! As a DM, you can see how your party is faring, and adjust the challenge accordingly. In effect, you are making your BBEG "more powerful" by forcing the party to overcome additional obstacles before actually being able to get their hands on him. As far as beefing up the BBEG for the final encounter, I believe that is something to be avoided. Sure, he may have a surprise or two up his sleeve, but making him much more powerful than he was when they last met feels arbitrary and capricious. Giving him a powerful magic item or weapon he didn't have before also has its problems. Besides making the players feel it was slapped on just to thwart them, you have to deal with the players getting their hands on the thing once they do take him out. Of course, you can always have contingency plans for that as well. Perhaps he destroys it, with his dying breath, releasing its energy all at once for a sort of grenade effect. The difficulty there is, no one likes to die at the end of an encounter like that. On the other hand, there is nothing that says you can't customize the item such that it requires a special keyword or action that the players don't know and have to research, or that it only has a certain number of uses, or is powerfully aligned evil when the party is all good. You can actually use this as another adventure hook, with the party trying to figure out what to do with the thing. Perhaps the item becomes a liability to the party, and they need to go on a quest to destroy it somehow. But, I digress... Point is, your BBEG probably doesn't want to die, and if they know they can't go toe to toe with your party, they are going to come up with contingency plans to help give them an edge. Escape routes, traps, distractions, and minions are all the kinds of things a BBEG might employ to give your party a bigger headache than he can cause directly. -Caver
Amon_WinterfallIV 10-17-06, 12:41 PM	Here's a surprising answer: Let him die. Seriously, if the campaign world is anything like a real world, there are thousands of potential BBEGs. A BBEG that gets one rounded (or one-shotted) can die like a gentleman. The point is that I view BBEGs are expendable; an anti-climatic fight where the BBEG goes down in seconds can be quite memorable, and personally, if you get to cast Hold Person on the BBEG, and it works, more power to you. Try to roll the dice fairly, if they die, they die. If the PCs die, they die. The BBEG might surrender if he is getting clocked by the PCs. And yes, the BBEG should never fight alone, unless his CR is 4 or more above the party.
DarknessEternal 10-17-06, 01:04 PM	Try to roll the dice fairly, if they die, they die. If the PCs die, they die. Glad to see there are other reasonable D&D players in the world. No one likes playing with cheaters. It cheapens the common experience. And realistically, that is all D&D is about.
Alac_Gane 10-17-06, 02:04 PM	I've definitely gotta agree with the above two as well, as well as the third. Plan accordingly, but go with what happens... it's only fair. Otherwise, you might as well write a book instead of playing the game. ... but then again, you COULD do both. :ayyyy!: If the BBEG's plan you had is foiled early, you could always throw it into another BBEG's plan later on... no need to throw everything you had together away. Come to think of it, were there any BBEG's in movies or books or what have you that were easily foiled in the end?
The man they call Boxhead 10-17-06, 02:24 PM	I am a DM who fudges, but generally only for HP. And yes, I do it both ways. I want a good fight to last at least 3 rounds. If I know the PCs can drop something in 1, I'll up the HP. The BBEG drank a potion of False Life or Aid, no biggie. If a PC rolls a 1 or a 2 on their Hit Die, I'll pretend I didn't see it. I don't want to kill a PC fighter because he rolled two 1s and a 2 by level 4. That's just no fun. Very rarely, I will fudge an attack roll, but never by more than 1 or 2. If I miss a PC with an AC of 14 with a 7th level fighter, I'll fudge it if it was a 2 and I needed a 3. I generally let 1s stand. If I roll a save and miss by 10, too bad for the NPC. If I miss by 1, I might fudge it, for dramatic effect. Once in a while a villain is one-shotted. This has turned against the PCs, such as when they need prisoners and kill them with a lucky shot.
Futuredevguy 10-17-06, 03:10 PM	Yes it is the same thing and it is wrong. Are we playing a game or is the DM telling me a story? If I use "cheese" and remove the cliche drama, why punish me? Maybe I spent the last two sessions preparing a "cheese" approach and you just take it away? You have any idea how frustrating it is when a wizards casts his most powerful spell and it does nothing? Yeah, that's fun :rolleyes: No I want the one round kill if it is earned legitimately. I want his minions and bystanders quaking in fear of me, he who destroys the indestructable. Get a real BBEG next session. Learn. If the DM is going to fudge his roll and remove PCs from the game, why play? Do the PCs get to fudge their rolls as well? Do you spend most of your gaming time as a player or as a DM?
Futuredevguy 10-17-06, 03:41 PM	To all of you who fudge to keep a BBEG from falling in the first round, do you also Fudge to keep the/ any PC from falling in the first round? If you fudge, when is it acceptable to STOP doing so and allow a TPK to happen? Should Good rolls on the DM's part and bad rolls on the Players part be fudged? Should bad tactics on the players part be mitigated by the DM and save their butts from a TPK or should we (to paraphrase Xandu) allow the players to live out "You underestimated the BBEG? Learn...you know become a better Player." To those that think it's fine if the BBEG goes down in the first round from a well placed/chossen spell or tactic. Is it also fine if the character/Party goes down in the first round due to a well placed/chossen spell or tactic used by the BBEG and or their minions? If it is not "FINE" please explain why.
calvinNhobbes 10-17-06, 03:58 PM	Come to think of it, were there any BBEG's in movies or books or what have you that were easily foiled in the end? Not sure if this is what you had in mind, but remember the scene in Indian Jones: Raiders of the Lost Ark when he just shoots the guy with the bigass sword? You expect this huge fight then bam he's dead. Very funny!
aotrscommander 10-17-06, 05:29 PM	To all of you who fudge to keep a BBEG from falling in the first round, do you also Fudge to keep the/ any PC from falling in the first round? I don't take any special precautions against this happening, but it's pretty rare for me to knock the PCs out these days, even with combats that are supposed to be hard (my players are pretty good). I would not rule out the possibility (e.g., the mage gets caught in a fireball and fluffs his save); however, if I felt that such an instance would be counter to the spirit of the game, then I might if it was possible to do so without being obvious. If you fudge, when is it acceptable to STOP doing so and allow a TPK to happen? I treat the PCs in a manner as if they were protagonists in a series, so I do not kill them arbitrarily (it makes more work for me and strains my suspention of disbelief). As I have to prepare the entire campaign before hand (time constraints generally mean it trying to write it as I go lead to rushed and less good work), I have to be less flexible than an off-the-cuff DM can afford to be. So, in order to provoke me into an actual TPK, the players would have to do something monumentally and deliberatly stupid. However, it is entirely possible for the PCs to lose a fight without being wiped out. Should Good rolls on the DM's part and bad rolls on the Players part be fudged? I can fudge my own rolls, in the rare instances I need to do so (I minimise any fudging I have to do, hence my use of Fate Points), since the players don't see them. I can't (and won't) fudge theirs; though if they have a run of particularly bad luck, I cut them some slack in other (i.e. tactical) areas. Should bad tactics on the players part be mitigated by the DM and save their butts from a TPK or should we (to paraphrase Xandu) allow the players to live out "You underestimated the BBEG? Learn...you know become a better Player." Bad tactics it not something I have any control over, aside from making obvious suggestions. If the PCs are getting whomped, and choose to fight rather than flee, then it is on there own heads. Note that they are unlikely to be wiped out in the first round (see above), thus giving them some grace time to realise their mistake and correct it, or get the hell out of dodge. But then it is in their court. I am lenient, but only to a point. For example, I did point out (as DM) to the players in the last game in ran that they needed to start working as a team. They encountered a group of mixed opponents who were half their level in a long range engagement. The party acted entirely individually, and got split up, tied down and generally out-manouvred. I pointed out to them that had their actually been anyone their of significant capability, they would have been in serious danger of being wiped out. They took me at my word, and after some planning, had gelled together to the point when at the end of the campaign they were able to deal with the final BBEGS with depressing speed. (Whether or not I actually would have wiped them out, I'm not sure. But the point is, they take me seriously.) As a final note, I should say that I use fudging as an absolute last resort. It is not something I do regularly, willingly or to a serious extent. However, I reserve my option to do so in the rare occasions that it seems nessecary.
DarknessEternal 10-17-06, 05:36 PM	Please stop using the word "fudge" when you mean "cheat". We're all aware of you what you're doing. Be honest about it. Fudge is a delicious treat; don't tarnish its good name with your cheating ways.
Hammith 10-17-06, 05:53 PM	As a final note, I should say that I use fudging as an absolute last resort. It is not something I do regularly, willingly or to a serious extent. However, I reserve my option to do so in the rare occasions that it seems nessecary. Agreed, like Sunday when on the first round of combat in the first fight of the first session in a new campaign I accidentally killed a character in one hit due to a critical. Instead he went to negative nine. It would have been especially nasty is he died because the first words out of my mouth for the session were "roll initiative". Please stop using the word "fudge" when you mean "cheat". We're all aware of you what you're doing. Be honest about it. Fudge is a delicious treat; don't tarnish its good name with your cheating ways. So you're saying if you were the guy above and that happened to you, you'd let me kill you? I hardly think it's fun to die in the first six seconds of the game. Relax, it's just a game anyway. DMs that fudge the rules do so because they don't think it will be as fun for the players if they just allowed them to die or let the combat be over with the words "I cast disintigrate". There are certain times when rolling a 1 or a 20 just makes the game less fun. My players remember the times they were challenged, I've yet to hear them ramble on and on about the times they won in just a round due to luck. Now, if the players win in a round due to extensive planning and excellent tactics, I'm going to give it to them. I'll let them die if they do something really really stupid. However, if pure luck causes them to kill the Death God they've been playing for half a year in order to face and bring down, that seems rather anti-climactic. By the same means, I think it's a bit of a sham to let a kobold kill a level 14 PC by rolling three 20s in a row.
Max Octavious Xavier 10-17-06, 06:11 PM	I agree with aotrscommander and Hammith, well said folks. Please stop using the word "fudge" when you mean "cheat". We're all aware of you what you're doing. Be honest about it. Fudge is a delicious treat; don't tarnish its good name with your cheating ways. From a dictionary: "Fudge: To fake or falsify: fudge figures." So we are being honest. Do you spend most of your gaming time as a player or as a DM? I wonder how the sides (fudging and not fudging) break down as to Dm and player only? I am making no judgements, I just think it would be interesting.
Entheogenic 10-17-06, 06:13 PM	Just my two cents on the fudging issue... Just as players should not lose solely by virtue of the dice falling badly for them, they should not win solely by virtue of the dice falling in their favor. If the climax of the campaign, the battle we've been working toward for months, ended in one round via a Disintigrate spell and a badly timed "1" on the dice, I'd be disappointed--either as a player or as a DM. Even if it were my character that cast the spell, I'd still be disappointed. The point of D&D is to have fun, and if the dice rolls are getting the way of that, then why not fudge them a little? The trick is to use it to keep things balanced--challenging, but not overpowering--in a way that the players will enjoy. The appeal in leveling characters, tricking them out with cool new powers, and learning new skills is NOT to one-shot the campaign (at least for most people), but rather to use those abilities in creative ways that--eventually--allow you and your party to prevail. I'll fudge rolls to keep a sense of danger and fun--otherwise, we might as well just be playing a probability game. That said, if your BBEG is in a position where he can be one-shotted by ANYTHING, that's a case of bad DMing. No self-respecting evil warlord would put himself in a position where he could be taken out by a single lucky shot (magical or otherwise); he'd never make it to BBEG status if he were that stupid. The best cure, as always, is prevention. Play your BBEG smart (like you'd play a character), and you shouldn't need to fudge too often. Entheogenic
aotrscommander 10-17-06, 06:27 PM	One of the perks of D&D I find as a DM is that I can have clinmatic fights. Fun though Rolemaster is, I have given up trying to have BBEG fights, because I will absolutely garentee that the first attack on the BBEG will be a open-ended high roll that kills him outright (often before he has a chance to act). Please stop using the word "fudge" when you mean "cheat". We're all aware of you what you're doing. Be honest about it. Fudge is a delicious treat; don't tarnish its good name with your cheating ways. Since you have such an objection to the term, despite it being a definition of the word, I will henceforth refer to the last resort in question as 'modulation'. I will not refer to it as cheating, as I, personally, do not DM in a competative fashion; I cannot 'win' D&D, therefore I cannot 'cheat'. (Though I could make incompetant or idiotic judgements if I were an asshat DM.) When I DM a roleplaying game, I do so under the assertation that rule mechanics, crucially important though they are, are secondary to the 'game'. The priority is story/game cohesion > mechanics. Rule mechanics in wargames (or board games), by contrast, are (mostly) the end-all and be-all of the game (there is little to no 'fluff' element in-game to a wargame in most cases). The priority here is game mechanics > story/game cohesion. Do you spend most of your gaming time as a player or as a DM? I do the bulk of DMing for both the (weekly) groups I am a part of, plus for the day session we have over the course of the year (perhaps 50-60% it, with only two other players doing any extended games). The remaining players have either no time or no inclination to run. When I do play, I show the DM the same curtesy as I prefer to be shown when I run. I treat every time we are in potential danger (often as subconciously as consciously) as deadly serious, nevermind the fact that intellectually I know the DM is unlikely to wipe us out. (Heck I was convived we were about to be TPK'd on Monday, and I know that the party survives since we're playing the bad guys to a good party we've already encountered in other group!) If I become aware the DM is modulating, I make no comment (though I have been known to point out that things in the favour of the DM, even when most determintal to me). I have no problem with the DMs arbitration, so long as there is an in-game reason for it. (Example, I used Baleful Polymorph sucessfully on Monday to turn a Drow into a bunny while in the Demon Web. The DM ruled that the corrupt nature of the place meant it would become a killer rabbit (he said that sort of thing would amuse Lloth). While not best pleased, I accepted it without complaint (and added another reason to why Lloth is on our 'people we're going to kill list'). It missed it's only attack and failed to vorpal bite me, and than I splattered it with my other character, so no harm done (rabbit AC = bad thing vrs narked Psionic Warrior's Power Attack!))
Grier 10-17-06, 08:39 PM	Hey, I have an idea. Make the final confrontation with the BBEG a non-combat encounter. I'll give it some time to sink in. What then? Your fighter with his +5 vorpal sword of "I kill you on a 15-20" and your wizard with his "Roll a 1 against Disintegration, I dare you" are completely irrelevant. Suddenly they're racing against the clock to turn off the Doomsday device 5 miles over in the next county, or trying to politically outmaneuver the "king's advisor" to stop him from becoming the next ruler and ruining the kingdom. Or, heck, make the BBEG so big, bad, and evil that the goal becomes finding someone bigger, badder, and gooder to kick his butt. No one is thinking about combat when you have to convince Bahamut to step in and put Vecna in his place. Look to comics for these kinds of things. Comic book superheroes, Superman espescially, are beatsticks of the first order. So to make a climactic villain encounter, they would be unable to simply beat the bad guy to paste for some reason, and they would have to get around that first. Superman? Kryptonite. Batman? Something like hostages. What do you do then? After you get that story out of the way, then you can have combat. But if the story was the climax, then it doesn't matter if the villain dies in one round. It's not perfect, and it's not the solution to end all problems, but it's an option.
Grod_The_Giant 10-17-06, 08:49 PM	I find I have this problem too. The BBEGs tend to have enough power to damage the party with ease...but not enough defence (even with their good AC) to last more then a round or two. My semi-cheating solution? Ignore his HP and keep him fighting for a few rounds (also, the enimy being able to mysteriously teleport out of being surrounded and hit both casters all in the same turn is fun too...)
xanadu 10-18-06, 12:23 AM	Aotrscommander, Hammith, “fudging” DMs, et al – You are basically saying, “It’s my job to make D&D the game I want it to be.” I hate DMs with this attitude. They are but 1 player of 5,6, or more. It’s not your job to impose your idea of fun upon the players. It is your job to let the players play. Have you ever thought that if a wizard casts disintegrate – HE WANTS TO DISINTEGRATE the BBEG right then, right there, as in right the **** now?!?!?!?!?!!??!?! So by CHEATING the BBEG’s saving throw, you are not only, well, cheating, you are also directly rejecting your players wishes to impose your own standards of fun. If I wanted to draw the fight out, I’d cast grease. Also, I hate it when DM cheats for the PCs. Please, I took the training wheels off my bike when I was 6. The players should never, ever know or even suspect you are doing it. Dead wrong. Very, very, dead wrong. The last DM I played with was a total cheater. After a while, patterns emerge, you have difficulty explaining why protection from evil doesn’t block mind control, and it becomes obvious when special villains happen to always make their saves. Any “special” villain was impervious to anything my telepath and the party cleric did…many a drive home we were left completely baffled when by the rules tactics just didn’t work. The villains he did not care about acted stupidly because he did not want to “accidentally” kill any PCs. In sum, we had NO CONTROL and it sucked. I didn’t have to worry about dying vs. random things, and I knew every spell/special ability simply would not work vs. the special BBEG. When you cheat to add “fun” you REMOVE THE AGENCY AND ABILITY OF THE PCS TO PLAY THE GAME AND THIS SUCKS. So, you are writing a story and the PCs are mere puppets for you to pull the strings. AS much as you justify it for “enjoyment” and “drama” in the end YOU ARE DEPRIVING THE PCS THE ABILITY TO PLAY. Do you spend most of your gaming time as a player or as a DM? I do both actually. Right now I am playing in a campaign and DMing. In the play campaign, I suicided my telepath because the DM didn't allow any mind control abilities to work on anyone of significance. In the DM campaign, my players brag when they kill the BBEG quick but have the fear of death every encounter because they know creatures with a 26 intelligence fight like they have a 26 intelligence and crits/disintegrates go both ways. Actually makes for extreme drama if you ask me (and them!).
DarknessEternal 10-18-06, 12:41 AM	So you're saying if you were the guy above and that happened to you, you'd let me kill you? Yes. And I'd feel cheated if you saved my character via this Deus Ex Mechina. You'd cheapen that characters entire existence otherwise. No longer is anything he accomplishes the product of his own work; it's all attributed to you saving him when he should have died.
Qube 10-18-06, 02:09 AM	Hi, my name is Hammith, I'm a DM and I fudge rolls. Many of you seem to be against this practice in this particular instance because it removes the players from the game. Ok. So what happens when the mage rolls a 20 for initiative, casts disintigrate, and the rest of the six man party doesn't get to go? I think that removes them just as much. - so you are punishing the player with the highest init, because the BBEG had a direct line of sight before he could act. the Wiz could as wel casted magic missle (which would have had the same effect) - ever herd of a backup plan? their was a nice list of a couple of posts back. "let the minions charge in, let a bounded demon get free, ..." these are ways to (A) get a longer and meaningfull final encounter (B) the wizard still has a feeling his disintegrate was usefull. yes your preperation of the BBEG's spells, ... was a waist; for the next campaign let the BBEG's general be a copy of this BBEG. voila problem solved without fudging rolls.
Paradak 10-18-06, 04:09 AM	Next time you make a BBEG, be sure to tweak the feats/stats/abilities to cover the basis of the party's favorite battle techniques. They like will save or dies? He has mind blank. They have grapplers? He has freedom of movement/is large/has levels of psi-warrior for grip of iron/etc.? Chargers? Difficult terrain. The obvious problem with this approach is that the party will simply do this instead: Use grappling against the mind blanked guy and save or die spells against the lower-will save warrior, iron body against the rogue and disintegrate against the wizard, and so on, always targeting the weak points of each boss (and there is always at least one). The higher level the game becomes, the worst this is, until you end up being forced to either accept that your villains won't last more than one fight. so I recommend using a behind-the-scene puppet-maniplator villain as the "real" main villain, and "standard" monsters as sub-villains, or else you'll have to cover ALL of your bases, which tends to be not only complex but also severely limits the choices of villains. Pax.
ArcTan 10-18-06, 04:25 AM	Please stop using the word "fudge" when you mean "cheat". We're all aware of you what you're doing. Be honest about it. Fudge is a delicious treat; don't tarnish its good name with your cheating ways. I hate to have to be the one who keeps beating this drum, but Rule Zero. Whether you think of it as "cheating" in some moral sense or not, there's no cheating to anything the DM does when it comes to the rules. The *only* standard to go by when judging the DM's actions is whether players have fun or not.
ArcTan 10-18-06, 04:29 AM	Yes. And I'd feel cheated if you saved my character via this Deus Ex Mechina. You'd cheapen that characters entire existence otherwise. No longer is anything he accomplishes the product of his own work; it's all attributed to you saving him when he should have died. Nothing a player ever accomplishes is the result of her own work. It's all because the DM carefully tailored an encounter to fit the player's needs, gave the player the opportunity for loot and equipment, doled out XP to the player so she would level up, etc. D&D is a game that starts out really with no rules (I mean, there's *rules*, but there's no game board, no defined goal, no motivation for what happens next) and has the DM make it all up. The DM isn't playing a game against the players, the DM *is* the game. So why get all uptight about the DM jiggering with the game to make the game work? That's what the DM was doing from the beginning. Otherwise there's nothing that stops the DM from having your level-1 character have the bad luck to run into a CR 3 encounter on the way home from work and get killed in the first ten minutes of the very first session before she meets the party. That's certainly realistic, and nothing against the rules happened, but it's being a bad DM -- because game flow is the important thing in a game, and that's why we have things like CR in the first place. A DM who makes sure the party "just happens" to run into encounters of their CR all the time, not too much higher and not too much lower, is just doing his job -- but from a simulationist perspective that's just as much "fudging" as making sure a natural 20 doesn't happen at the wrong time to ruin everything. Should the DM plan ahead so that natural 20's can happen *without* ruining everything? Of course. Does this make it a crime to try to fudge your way out of poor planning midsession? I wouldn't say so.
ArcTan 10-18-06, 04:31 AM	Question: Why does your definition of fun get prioritized over mine? Can't answer that without appearing to be a domineering, insensitive, selfish, dictatorial snob can you :P It doesn't. If you want gritty, above-board, absolutely fair wargaming where everything hinges on the roll of the dice, good luck to ya. D&D really isn't the best place to look for it, though. See above. I believe the DM should play by the rules, be better prepared, not cheat, or try to adlib his pisspoor DMing but that's just my opinion; apparently I'm in the minority in wanting a fair game. D&D is fundamentally an unfair game. The way the CR system is set up, PCs are supposed to *always win* against what the CR system defines as a fair encounter. What kind of a "fair game" has one side -- the PCs -- almost always win against the other side -- the NPCs? It's *not* a game. It's something between a vague simulation of a game and a storytelling session.
ArcTan 10-18-06, 04:34 AM	Glad to see there are other reasonable D&D players in the world. No one likes playing with cheaters. It cheapens the common experience. And realistically, that is all D&D is about. WotC gave the lie to the idea that anything a DM does counts as "cheating" with the whole idea of Rule Zero in the first place. Honestly? A lot of D&D's fun is supposed to come from the illusion that you're playing a wargame like Warhammer or a board game like Monopoly. But it's an illusion. A lie. A cheat. A joke. Everything about the game -- the way it's set up for players to always win and become better at winning the more they win, the conceit of a "DM screen", the way players aren't playing against an opponent with the same advantages and disadvantages as them but an imaginary world set up by the DM with NPCs that effectively come out of thin air at the DM's discretion instead of the computer-simulated "realistic world" the game pretends to be... *It's not a game*. It's a cool story masquerading in the form of a game to keep you interested. I realized this after about the second time I ever played D&D, and once you realize this you have two options: Walk away or accept the illusion. I choose to accept the illusion, as a player and a DM. And when I'm a player I'm a good player and I try to get into the game, think tactically, etc. all with the faith and the *expectation* that the DM is jerking strings around behind the scenes, and I don't try to go up against that any more than as an audience member at a magic show I jump up and yell "I've seen this trick! He's not really shuffling the deck!"
MarkB 10-18-06, 06:46 AM	To those that think it's fine if the BBEG goes down in the first round from a well placed/chossen spell or tactic. Is it also fine if the character/Party goes down in the first round due to a well placed/chossen spell or tactic used by the BBEG and or their minions? Darn right it is. If I'm dumb enough to let the BBEG get the drop on me, he'd better take his shot, or else I'm going to be disappointed as a player.
Qube 10-18-06, 07:56 AM	To those that think it's fine if the BBEG goes down in the first round from a well placed/chossen spell or tactic. Is it also fine if the character/Party goes down in the first round due to a well placed/chossen spell or tactic used by the BBEG and or their minions? yep. that will keep the players from walking into dungeons unprepared. but their always must be a difinitive choice; weather it is a BBEG or a PC, when you kidnap the princess at low level, perpare to die in the first round. what i mean is: it is all right that PCs die round 1 but not when the campaign starts with the BBEG (of which the PCs haven herd anything yet (because it is the start of the campiagn)) kills the wizard rond 1 because the BBEG was smart enough to see the wiz will make trouble in the future. there is a line between 1 round kills and out-of-the-blue kills
Qube 10-18-06, 07:59 AM	Use grappling against the mind blanked guy and save or die spells against the lower-will save warrior, iron body against the rogue and disintegrate against the wizard, and so on, always targeting the weak points of each boss (and there is always at least one). The higher level the game becomes, the worst this is, until you end up being forced to either accept that your villains won't last more than one fight. what about dragons? they are an exception of what you say
aotrscommander 10-18-06, 08:32 AM	Have you ever thought that if a wizard casts disintegrate – HE WANTS TO DISINTEGRATE the BBEG right then, right there, as in right the **** now?!?!?!?!?!!??!?! So by CHEATING the BBEG’s saving throw, you are not only, well, cheating, you are also directly rejecting your players wishes to impose your own standards of fun. If I wanted to draw the fight out, I’d cast grease. Yes, and when I'm playing that's the attitude I take; when in a fight you want to win and quickly; vice versa for the BBEGs (that's just good roleplaying). However, if the PCs win all the fights easily, (as they usually do in anything but a BBEG fight), the game ceases to be fun. So there is a metagaming aspect the DM may have to consider as well, as whether it is best for the game (which may or may not be the same as what's best for the player who's wants to single-handledly wipe the BBEG in round one.) That said, as I've explained previously, I very rarely have to do any modulating, and as I get more used to dealing with higher-level characters, the more I implement steps (never having a single BBEG, Fate Points etc) so that I don't ever have to at all. As I said before, we don't have many high level parties; only the highest level has even got access to Disintegrate and save-or-dies are not common. Ironically by the way, you picked an example of a spell I would never modulate in the first place! I should also say, that on reflection, several times I've had to modulate for the advantage of the monsters are to counter the one player who consistantly, with any set of dice, makes every save, virtually always hits/criticals and so on (add to the fact he's an excellent optimiser). I can think of at least two occasions when I've modulated to prevent him getting all the glory again. (Not least because if he does something great, he never, ever lets you forget it!) I mentioned that I have modulated saves, because I can't say with absolute certainty that in 17 years of DMing that I haven't. I cannot recall a specific instance, however. Also, I hate it when DM cheats for the PCs. Please, I took the training wheels off my bike when I was 6. I hate having to dismember my sense of continuity to come up with a reason a new character appears in the party convienantly after one character dies. That's also why I started using Fate Points. Then I'm not cheating for you, because your death is in your hands. (However, in our groups, changing your character frequently will arise the ire of not just the DM, but the rest of the players as well.) As I've said, when I run, it's story first, game mechanics second. We play enough wargames we get our mechanics fix from them. We play the wargames for the warGAME, and play a ROLE-PLAYING game more for the 'story' (and yes, I play and view my characters like that when I'm playing someone else's game.) Also, with the exception of the one pure roleplayer (i.e. the one whose not a wargamer) none of our groups are big into personal freedoms; they except (reasonable) DM restrictions without question (no matter who's behind the screen). Dead wrong. Very, very, dead wrong. The last DM I played with was a total cheater. After a while, patterns emerge, you have difficulty explaining why protection from evil doesn’t block mind control, and it becomes obvious when special villains happen to always make their saves. Any “special” villain was impervious to anything my telepath and the party cleric did…many a drive home we were left completely baffled when by the rules tactics just didn’t work. The villains he did not care about acted stupidly because he did not want to “accidentally” kill any PCs. In sum, we had NO CONTROL and it sucked. I didn’t have to worry about dying vs. random things, and I knew every spell/special ability simply would not work vs. the special BBEG. Then you had a bad experience with a DM who clearly was not suited to your play style and who may well have been very poor at DMing. That does not make the rest of us, who see fit to occasionally bail out the party after a (typical) string of poor dice rolls, or occasionally increase a BBEGs hits to max (which I generally do on generation as matter of principle anyway now), abominations against player freedom. When you cheat to add “fun” you REMOVE THE AGENCY AND ABILITY OF THE PCS TO PLAY THE GAME AND THIS SUCKS. So, you are writing a story and the PCs are mere puppets for you to pull the strings. AS much as you justify it for “enjoyment” and “drama” in the end YOU ARE DEPRIVING THE PCS THE ABILITY TO PLAY. I imagine you will say the same about the fact that I flat out forbid the players to play criminals. Good campaign yes, evil campaign yes, criminal campaign, no. Becuase I don't find it interesting, and I won't run something that I don't enjoy. My players are welcomed (nay, often prodded with a stick) to take over and run something for a change if they don't like my DMing (or just to give me a break!); but I am DMing probably 40-60% of the time in both groups, and have been doing so for years. So, given the limits of my creativity are not infinite, I expect some fair give from the players. I realise this is abhorrent to a lot of more free-form gamers, but simply, we don't have anyone who can run free-form games. Frankly, though I would love to play more, I simply couldn't cope with more than our two 2-3 hour sessions per week; I don't have the time! (The other players are not, very free-form, either. The phrae 'what do you do next' is most often met with crickers chirping. However, in many ways that suits me fine, even if occasionally, it is annoying. I did once try to run a more free-form game, but gave up when I basically got no input from the players; that was the only game ever that didn't work.) So, if I have to spend hours writing the blasted game, I will expect some measure of tolerance from the players and for them to meet me half way. If I could run free-form, then I suspect I wouldn't have these issues. But I know my limitations. Perhaps, now I have answered your aspertions in what I hope is an explanatory, rather than confrontational manner, we can agree to disagree, without any more implicatons that 'my D&D is better than yours/you play wrong'?
WayneTheGame 10-18-06, 08:41 AM	*It's not a game*. It's a cool story masquerading in the form of a game to keep you interested. Quoted For Truth. :clap:
Asche 10-18-06, 09:47 AM	On the topic of cheating/fudging rolls: Generally, I dont like the practice from neither DM nor player side. However, a good story > the RAW, so in the rare case of a roll going absolutely and irreversibly (is that a word?) against the storyline, I'll fudge just enough to not ruin the game. Saving a BBEG that is supposed to last about 5 rounds longer than he just did is NOT such a case (he was supposed to die anyway, so why bother?), killing off a key player by a lucky scythe-crit with no means of ressurection can be. On average, every 3 or 4 weeks I come across a roll I really have to fudge, and sometimes I still dont and see what happens. Anyway, I dont let it ruin my story, as thats the bigger part of having fun, compared to sticking to the rules as its own end. On topic of BBEG loot, and giving it to the players or not: I plan my stories in advance. If I equip an NPC with vastly more GP than his treasure rolls told me, I ll subtract said value from other points of the adventure. Little goblins never have a magic full plate mail then, and its not like players are surprised about that. Rolling AFTER a fight what the creature had is Diablo in its pure form, and IMO entirely out of place in a pen and paper RPG. It kills the immersion quicker than if that kobold got a call on his cellphone during combat with "I will survive" as a ringtone. On the topic of making fights last long enough with just 1 BBEG: There are simple solutions abundant: a) BUILD the BBEG, dont just roll up his stats and stick a 10 into constitution. A typical BBEG needs at least as much HP as the parties barbarian under full buffs. b) highest score goes in primary DEFENSIVE stat, mostly dex or con, instead of primary OFFENSIVE stat, which can quickly raise the damage output to TPK levels. A BBEG is built with longevity in mind, not with burst damage capability like players usually do. Almost all DMs having problem with TPKs by single enemies make this mistake, building them like they would build their char. c) Feats like Power Attack, Cleave etc. are fine. Once you get to Flay Foe etc. it starts getting extremely dangerous, cause the more uncontrolled variables are in a BBEGs damage, the less you can predict the flow of the combat. Try using feats that increase his survival chances (Imp. Toughness, various resistance or save feats, damage reduction, mobility) instead of increasing his combat abilities. d)Play for show, not for effect. So your BBEG just rolled 20 on Initiative, and can cast Disintegrate at a DC of 155. And you just sit there knowing if it was your PC, you would now lay the smackdown on the most dangerous target. Well, you are the BBEG, so resist the urge. Cast something big and flashy like a fireball, or a trademark spell, taunt the PCs and cast the best damage-preventing spell you have..... just DONT one-shot anyone outright. To make a fight lasting, use every bit of control you have, for example power-attack for unrealistic numbers. While you shake the dice, players will get nervous and sweaty, cause they just hear your "He power-attacks for full BAB", while you already know he is going to miss. e)Last but not least: One of the biggest threats to a BBEG are various methods of "save or die" spells, like Hold Person + Coup de Grace, Disintegrate, Power Word: Kill. These spells should be allowed to shine throughout the adventure, but when players reach the BBEG, you dont want them getting in the way too much. Ideally, that wont depend on a lucky save. Make sure the players wont get around to cast them unimpeded until round 4 or 5, as a finishing move, rather than one-shot kill. How to do it? Well, lots of options: Ring of Counterspells are expensive, but there is a cheap weapon enchant which does the same for the first spell it eats. Force player casters to move by traps, silence spells or similar.... or force them to expend their disintegrate to counterspell your own! Use range and cover to break line of sight, use their own comrades to get in the way, use massive buffs to your saves or immunity that have to be dispelled first (buying yet another round).... in short, let them chew through your defenses a few rounds before getting to the kill. Rule of Thumb for BBEGs: Think defensive. Think like a professional boxer.... you have to go 5 rounds before K.O.
xanadu 10-18-06, 01:46 PM	Aotrscommander: You are explaining rather than being confrontational but what you say sometimes is paradoxical. For instance "the game ceases to be fun if PCs win all the fights easy." To me this is the DM’s fault for making the encounters too easy; that’s why the players win too easily. If your encounter difficulty is right, you wont have to cheat on dice rolls for a varied experience. I also find it highly disagreeable that my character wont die because you find in inconvenient to introduce a replacement. *Yawn* why roll dice, keep track of hitpoints, etc if I know I will live in the end. That is the ultimate in NON-drama. Say what you will about only “occasionally” bailing out the PCs or a BBEG from an early death, it becomes noticeable no matter how subtle you think you are. It is quite clear we look at DnD very differently. You want to tell a story in which the PCs live to the end and after a climatic encounter defeat the BBEG. Whether or not you admit it, the PCs lose the ability to play and it strikes me as railroading in the worse sense. To me, it is horribly cliché and no different than 90% of the trash Hollywood passes out on cinema screen as “entertainment”. What good is taking the journey if I already know the destination? *yawn* :zzz:
xanadu 10-18-06, 02:04 PM	ArcTan – D&D is a game. The last bedtime story I had was when my Mom read her last Mother Goose tale when I was 6. You think it is not a game because you, as the almighty DM, feel the urge to manipulate the rules/outcome to conform to your idea of what D&D should be. At that point it ceases to be a game because I, as a PLAYER character, can no longer be a participant. D&D is “fair” because while the PCs will be expected to kill the random monster, there is no such expectation of them coming out alive from the dungeon, graveyard, or evil wizard’s lair (unless of course you have a cheating DM who doesn’t want to kill the PCs). Death can befall a PC at every turn. The PCs can die. The NPCs can die. Sure, D&D tilts the advantage for each encounter to the PCs – that is the way the GAME is set up – but if crits/disintegrates/death goes both ways indiscriminately, that is by a reasonable definition: fair. The NPCs don’t get screwed by DM fiat and neither do the PCs. And to be honest, I really don’t care if you define D&D as something between simulation and a story. It is completely immaterial to the whole point. As a PLAYER, I want to take an active role in PLAYING this whatever it is, not have the DM whimsically pull strings and achieve his predetermined ideal. You want to tell a story, write a book, don’t DM.
aotrscommander 10-18-06, 03:23 PM	Aotrscommander: You are explaining rather than being confrontational but what you say sometimes is paradoxical. For instance "the game ceases to be fun if PCs win all the fights easy." To me this is the DM’s fault for making the encounters too easy; that’s why the players win too easily. If your encounter difficulty is right, you wont have to cheat on dice rolls for a varied experience. And, now having run two (very long) 3.5 campaigns, I hopefully will be able to balance things spot on. The last D&D 3.5 one-shot I ran went perfectly. I also find it highly disagreeable that my character wont die because you find in inconvenient to introduce a replacement. Fair enough. I confess I said this out of irritation because we have had some annoyances experiences recently; one player dropping out (after telling me he was going to play for months and I had done a lot of work on his character in both mechanics and plot) and another who had changed her character twice already in one campaign (and it's not even one I'm running) because their character concept/personality didn't fit, and rather than, y'know, roleplaying some actual character development, insisted on a new character. *Yawn* why roll dice, keep track of hitpoints, etc if I know I will live in the end. That is the ultimate in NON-drama. What I always say (or at least intend to) is that I don't generally kill off PCs without good reason. Note the 'generally' in that sentence. It's important. I treat the PCs in a manner not unlike the protagonists in a TV show. I am fairly certain, for example, that if I watch, say CSI or Stargate, most if not all the major cast are going to survive to the end of the episode (season-enders excepted). That knowledge does not impede my enjoyment. So I work on a 'credible threat' system. So long as the PCs are taking the threat seriously, so long as they are only 99% sure that I won't kill them, I have acheived my objective of making the combat dangerous. However, if the PCs ever start to believe that I won't kill them ever, they will find out shortly that that is the not case. (Not beleiveing I actually will kill constitutes 'good reason'.) What I don't do is kill PCs off due to poor dice rolls. (Especially given that with one exception, the party could easily be wiped out by ours group's tendancy to collectively have sucky dice rolls at the same time. We have got co-ordinated incompetance to a fine art.) Poor tactics, one the other hand - that will kill you. However, since my players (being mostly wargamers) have generally good tactics, this has never actually occured. Again, I think some aspects of what you get out of D&D, we get out of wargaming. Whether or not you admit it, the PCs lose the ability to play and it strikes me as railroading in the worse sense. To me, it is horribly cliché and no different than 90% of the trash Hollywood passes out on cinema screen as “entertainment”. What good is taking the journey if I already know the destination? *yawn* :zzz: To a degree, there is some railroading, yes (though in hindsight, I choose poor wording when I said 'story' earlier; I should have said 'plot'. There is a distinction.) I make no bones about that. As I said, I have neither the time nor the capability to run a free-form go-anywhere, do-anything type of game, nor do my players (in either DM or player capability). That is a price we have to pay. Sometimes, I wish we could (the thread on enworld mentioned in the Succubus Paladin thread on here a week or so ago made me envious). But, as I said before, I know my limitations. Given as the groups have been playing for about 17 years with several players, it hasn't stopped us yet, though. (In all that time, the only game that failed was the one where I actually tried to give the PCs more control!) Edit: spelling and adding an rather important 'not' to one sentence!
Keevo_Darkwood 10-18-06, 04:54 PM	Not sure if this is what you had in mind, but remember the scene in Indian Jones: Raiders of the Lost Ark when he just shoots the guy with the bigass sword? You expect this huge fight then bam he's dead. Very funny! That actually has a meta-story reason behind it. It was Spielberg's original intention to have a big sword vs. whip fight for that scene. However, Harrison Ford was suffering a case of the "Hershey squirts" on the day of filming that scene; the "bang, he's dead" change was his idea. Another fight that came to my mind, though...was the final showdown against the title character of Kill Bill: vol. 2. Sure, Bill was a bit drunk, but it could've been handled much better than it was. All of Beatrix' other fights with major characters were exciting and action-packed, whereas Bill (ironically, the one major character played by someone who didn't require any additional martial-arts training to look the part of a badass fighter) was hit with the FPPEH technique after about 15 seconds; in D&D terms, part of the way through round 3. :( Now, I'm normally in the "let the dice fall where they may" camp. RPG sessions and trips to the movie theater, though, are apples and oranges. RPG campaigns are more open-ended than even a B-grade horror series with seemingly endless sequels could ever be. After a D&D party one-shots the BBEG, their story can easily go on; after her fight with Bill; Beatrix' story was over. Of course, if I had to pay $8 per RPG session, plus outrageous concession-stand prices for the food and drinks, my attitude about die-roll-fudging might be just a wee bit different. :smirk:
OneWinged4ngel 10-18-06, 06:11 PM	I'll take a shot. One of my BBEGs, a Medusa Duskblade, always had two goblin attendants following him around (In Eberron, medusa's can be male. Just thought I'd pre-empt that comment -_-)... Vesha (female sorceror) and Morig (male rogue). Both of them were low level and would be a fairly easy challenge for the party, but together made Maredas (the medusa) a far more formidable foe. Maredas would hit *hard* with his Duskblade abilities and general medusa-ness ;). Vesha would buff him, use battle control spells, and dispel any effects on him. Marig would sometimes set up to flank with him, but for the most part he'd use traps, poisons, and items (such as a UMD'd wand to heal Maredas and alchemical items) to screw up the party. The goblins also were very much guerilla-like... they'd stay out of the party's range and use terrain to stay out of their way. As long as they were tripping up the party and supporting Maredas, he simply wouldn't go down (for example, if he was stunned he'd just get a dispel magic on him). It made for a very difficult battle where the BBEG was still definitely the focus, as he would knock down the PCs in an attack or two. :D The good saves would help him resist save or dies, and he'd have items and buffs to help him resist such things. He'd get healed and he'd get dispels. And the party had to face battle control effects. These sort of things make for longer, more epic and interesting battles. This just goes to show how useful the right minions can be, as well as some strategy. Not much loot or items or anything. Really, you can challenge low-mid-level powergamers with plain ol' kobolds. It's all a matter of how you use them.
Hammith 10-19-06, 09:13 AM	I'm not arguing whether a BBEG with a horrible will save die versus a phantasmal killer spell, or one with barely any fortitude goes all dusty versus a disintegrate. I'm more arguing against the random out of nowhere barbarian dropping to a finger of death he could save against on a 1 that fails because of a 1's auto-failing. I'm going to say he saved on it and have him take the damage for succeeding. I agree that just fudging everything is bad. I only fudge stuff on the big enemies that are meant to be the climax of a long campaign. Minions, Lieutenants, Generals, one-shot game BBEGs? Nope, they're not going to make it. On the other hand, I'm not going to let my players die to a rock thrown by a kobold that's hiding in a tree that they missed the spot check for when the players are level 16 and the kobold is just a regular kobold. This is completely ok by my players. I'm quite sure of it. Why? Because I asked. They want to make characters that play out a story as much as I do, they want a great end to the thing MORE than I do. They don't care if I fudge a roll or two to make it happen. *It's not a game*. It's a cool story masquerading in the form of a game to keep you interested. Great quote.
DarknessEternal 10-19-06, 10:11 AM	I'm not arguing whether a BBEG with a horrible will save die versus a phantasmal killer spell, Does he also have a bad Fort save?
JadeReaver 10-19-06, 11:59 AM	Some of this stuff has been said before, but this is basically how I run the BBEGs in my campaign: 1-No fudging. If they disintingrate the Big Guy, let them. Good for them. 2-Buffs, buffs, and more buffs, preferably potions, one shot items, or spells. Any BBEG worth his salt should be well aware of the party's approach before they get anywhere near him-- and should have access to a considerable storehouse of such things. Of course, the BBEG should also have his share of permenent items, probably a few Evil items if you're worried about your PCs using them. Makes them a bit harder to sell too. 3-Evasion tactics- illusions, simulacrums and other ways to make the pcs waste their good spells. That oh, so useful hold person is useless if aimed at the wrong target. 4-Hit them when they're down. What BBEG with an active brain cell faces a party at maximum power? Wear them down with mooks, traps, and whatnot. 5- Who says the BBEG can't be raised or resurrected? You don't even need to go the undead route. Perhaps he has a powerful cleric in his employ that would see that he comes back? Hey, if the PCs can do it . . . . 6- Avoid the "BWAHAHAHAHAH, I am the great evil bad guy standing before you with my loyal band of cannon fodderites. Fear my wr------graulpshbagh---oh, gods, not the face!" scenario. Because that's almost exactly how it will end. Most PC spellcasters are going to target the biggest threat right away. I find it most effective to have the bad guy show up several rounds after a grand melee has started and target the weakest or most beat up PC. Hey, its not nice, I know. But you're not supposed to be. If you want to turn the tables a bit, have him beat down the weakest PC and then threaten to slit his throat if the others don't surrender. In other words, avoid a fair fight. That's not what evil really does anyway (well, not most of the time). That way, there is a far lesser chance of him getting into a "one spell and coup de gras" situation.
calvinNhobbes 10-19-06, 01:44 PM	That actually has a meta-story reason behind it. It was Spielberg's original intention to have a big sword vs. whip fight for that scene. However, Harrison Ford was suffering a case of the "Hershey squirts" on the day of filming that scene; the "bang, he's dead" change was his idea. Ya, I heard that too. But, I think it is a more memorable scene because he just shot him. I think a quick BBEG battle can be just as memorable as a long one if the NPC himself is memorable. Also, I would like to reiterate what someone else said earlier about focusing the BBEG on defense not offense. I think that is really a great idea and I suppose I have unconsciously done that since I started DMing. The purpose of a BBEG is someone with longevity who bullies other people to do the dirty work for him. A BBEG should run first and fight second.
Sildatorak 10-19-06, 05:36 PM	I wonder how the sides (fudging and not fudging) break down as to Dm and player only? I am making no judgements, I just think it would be interesting. I am an anti-fudging DM almost all of the time. The d20 roll will never be tampered with. Sometimes below level 5, I will drop a PC to -7 or lower when they should have been outright dead from damage in one round from full hp, but that is not a particularly common occurance and rarely matters. As long as it isn't first blood that kills them there is no guarantee. I don't use save or die spells unless I am willing to accept a PC death. They are rare, but you should see the look my players get when they realize that their enemy has a death attack of some variety. As a player, I am even stronger about anti-fudging. Assuming that the NPC's aren't ganging up on my character for no good reason, I feel cheated if I think the DM is effectively rolling blank dice and picking a number. If the NPC's are ganging up on me for good reason, then I've earned the beating I'm taking and won't complain.
Max Octavious Xavier 10-19-06, 07:33 PM	Not sure if this is what you had in mind, but remember the scene in Indian Jones: Raiders of the Lost Ark when he just shoots the guy with the bigass sword? You expect this huge fight then bam he's dead. Very funny!This analogy has been bothering me since it was posted. The guy with the sword was not, IMO, a BBEG. An important minion of the BBEG (LBEG would be appropriate), but not the BBEG. Taking him out with 1 shot is appropriate and makes for a memorable scene. But really isn't the kind of scene the OP was talking about, IMO. Hello, I think every DM must have had this happen atleast once: The PCs rander your boss helpless(hold monster/person, flesh to stone etc...) and then coup de grace it and kill it i nthe first round. Now I know some of you proboly don't mind this, but I for one would like to make my boss fights a bit for dramatic. So I am looking for a way to protect my bosses from coup de graces, with out jsut saying they are, if possible. and to answer it now, yes, I have banned all save or die spells in my games. thanks in advance for any help. A better idea would be to take your favorite fight scene between a hero and his nemesis at the end of your favorite movie and cut it down to 1 lucky shot by the hero.
calvinNhobbes 10-19-06, 09:24 PM	This analogy has been bothering me since it was posted. The guy with the sword was not, IMO, a BBEG. An important minion of the BBEG (LBEG would be appropriate), but not the BBEG. :rolleyes: I have some more hairs I need split if you are not busy.