Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chairman7w 10-24-05, 12:24 PM	It is for me. I'm running a game (8th level now) and the party Cleric has a small Army of undead he just marches ahead of the party and they set off all traps, flush out monsters and bad guys and the party just stays back and potshots the enemies without danger. I hate that spell.
green_yawgmoth 10-24-05, 12:41 PM	So send a good cleric with the sun domain and empowered turning at them. Greater turning + skeletons = a big pile of yellowish powder. Or a wizard with sudden maxed fireballs. Then watch said player cry when he realizes that his 5000gp worth of skeletons has just been obliterated in 6 seconds. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
CzarGarrett 10-24-05, 12:45 PM	Make the traps trigger to living beings. Have some minions against the party with cleave so they can take out several skeletons at once. If the cleric has more powerful undead, Undeath to Death can be a useful spell.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-24-05, 12:47 PM	So send a good cleric with the sun domain and empowered turning at them. Greater turning + skeletons = a big pile of yellowish powder. Or a wizard with sudden maxed fireballs. Then watch said player cry when he realizes that his 5000gp worth of skeletons has just been obliterated in 6 seconds. Ok i agree with the turning but those undead saved you from a maxed fire ball back there. and you could spread out undead to avoid sudden death. Me personally i think the evil cleric turning the undead on you is a better waste of 5000 gp.
FriendoftheDork 10-24-05, 12:47 PM	Well those undead are usually quite weak so no CR 8 creature should have a problem with them. Ok they're useful for flushing out traps, but rogues are better scouts and hiding monsters can just hide from them and wait until the party comes. AS for bad guys, well are your players using undead in town? That's a quick way to get unwanted attention from authorities. I think the problem is not the spell it's that your encounters are too similar and predictable. Vary them. Really the cleric can only have 32 skeletons at the same time even with multiple castings of the spell... and that costs alot. Remember that for every to skeletons the enemy crush the cleric loses a cure light potion of value. Also remember that these undead are nonintelligent, anything more complex than "kill everyone you meet" will probably not work. So if you send them out of sight they can be destroyed quickly or just walk into major traps killing most of them. If you describe what usually happens in detail I can give you some tips on how you should vary your encounters. Don't punish the player for using the spell as it is intended for.
Balor von Balorvitch 10-24-05, 12:50 PM	Make the traps trigger to living beings. Have some minions against the party with cleave so they can take out several skeletons at once. If the cleric has more powerful undead, Undeath to Death can be a useful spell. Trap would work but thats just adding a band aid to its brokeness. Cleave would as well but a smart necromancer could postion undead to avoid mass dead slaying. what lv is undead to dead? is it close to the various live to dead spells LOL.
Jagyr Ebonwood 10-24-05, 12:51 PM	Make sure that he's following the rules for his allowed number of controlled undead. And really, if he wants to spend all his money and resources focusing on the creation of undead, why shouldn't he? It's really no more disruptive than the leadership feat, or a summoner type wizard. And if he focuses all his stuff on his undead, he'll be sorely lacking in other areas, and screwed when they are inevitably destroyed. Also, evil clerics are popular BBEGs, and can easily wrest control of the skellies from him and turn them on the party.
VirgilCaine 10-24-05, 12:52 PM	Well those undead are usually quite weak so no CR 8 creature should have a problem with them. Ok they're useful for flushing out traps, but rogues are better scouts and hiding monsters can just hide from them and wait until the party comes. AS for bad guys, well are your players using undead in town? That's a quick way to get unwanted attention from authorities. If they haven't been flanked or attacked from behind or above while traveling and if they haven't had Pelorite your-favorite-cleric-undead-blasting-PrC-here hunters after them (with the appropriate trackers, diviners, teleporters, and similar support characters to find the PCs, you have been making a grave mistake.
Red_Ninja 10-24-05, 12:54 PM	Yeah, I'm running a game with characters that command and create undead... The problem hasn't really come up very much, because I tend to obliterate fodder, but the PCs are going up against some major undead soon...these are my tactics for keeping the "PC undead minions" down to managable numbers... -Higher level evil NPCs to take control of the PC's undead "thanks for the free minions!" -I have created a group of rival adventurers... the NPC barbarian has 18str and great cleave... I imagine that he'll power through the zombies and skeletons like butter -I have several areas that "are tricky" these area involve complex puzzles and problem solving, or difficult maneuvers (like climbing a rope up a vertical air shaft)... the undead minions won't be able to follow and the range for PC control is not that far... -Undead break down... I explained to my PCs a long time ago that their minions require "maintenance"- skeletons snap finger bones, lose femurs, etc... zombies decay, are nibbled on by ghouls, twist ankles, etc I require my PCs to spend 1 hour per week, per unintelligent minion, fixing them... If the PCs forget then I reduce movement, hp, attack damage or something... The time that PCs spend fixing these minions has resulted in "personalities" for the longer surviving zombies and skeletons... One zombie (who was later named Freddy) kept twisting his ankle, the PC cleric eventually hacked off Freddy's leg and replaced it with a sturdier orc leg (Spellcraft DC25). Freddy was reanimated several times and was ultimately incinerated- the PC was genuinely dismayed. The RPing was good too- a good chance for my evil PCs to RP.
MarkB 10-24-05, 12:57 PM	Even if the party aren't foolish enough to walk into town with a troupe of undead, you can still build some neat sub-plots around this. Maybe the local jeweller is an ex-adventurer, so he knows very well what a Cleric who walks inand buys half his stock of black onyx is probably intending. He gets to gossiping, the rumours start flying behind the scenes, and when there's a case of grave-robbing in the local cemetery the next night, guess who's the prime suspect.
green_yawgmoth 10-24-05, 01:01 PM	Ok i agree with the turning but those undead saved you from a maxed fire ball back there. and you could spread out undead to avoid sudden death. Me personally i think the evil cleric turning the undead on you is a better waste of 5000 gp.Replace fireball with any AoE spell of your choice. Hell, if it's a neutral or evil wizard, Dance of Ruin (BoVD) has a huge area and can obliterate just as many skeletons as the cleric. And can those skeletons fly? Because the wizard can, and should be. I'd be impressed if they could see invisibility too. Of course, the most amusing solution IMO would be turnabout; a rival (true) necromancer with a larger horde of undead who's annoyed by this little upstart trying to steal his spotlight; A level 9 TN (wiz 3/clr 3/TN 3) would have 48 HD of skeletons under his control. Tack on undead leadership and a decent cha, and that's a 2 on 1 for all of his undead, with some to spare for the party. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Murrdox 10-24-05, 01:09 PM	-Undead break down... One zombie (who was later named Freddy) kept twisting his ankle, the PC cleric eventually hacked off Freddy's leg and replaced it with a sturdier orc leg (Spellcraft DC25). Freddy was reanimated several times and was ultimately incinerated- the PC was genuinely dismayed. The RPing was good too- a good chance for my evil PCs to RP. That is HILARIOUS! How did you roll for the "mishaps" that happened to the undead? Is this a custom table that you came up with? Unless the undead were really put through a whole lot of strenuous work, I probably wouldn't roll this TOO often. After a battle, perhaps, if the creature took damage, and if the Cleric commanded the undead to do something unusually difficult, like climbing a large stone wall. Afterall, undead CAN survive centuries and still be fully functional, and although Zombies constantly decay, technically speaking they never fall apart and cease functioning because of it. Still, I think it's GREAT flavor rules for a cleric that makes a habit out of having undead cohorts. I'd be giving that player XP rewards for tending his undead flock so religioiusly. - To the original poster - keep in mind there is NO WAY that a cleric is going to be able to take his small army of the dead anywhere near a civilized area, and that if they travel on roads and see random commoners, they will CERTAINLY be telling the local militia about the adventureres with the roaming band of undead. While the players are at an inn, it is certainly possible that a local Paladin, Cleric, or rival adventuring party might dispatch the player's undead, depending on what he does with them when he goes into a city.
Thracos 10-24-05, 01:16 PM	A few things to keep in mind about Animate Dead: 1: Necromancy (Evil) spell. That means that casting this spell is an evil act. If the cleric is already evil, then no big deal. If not then repeated castings will slowly force his alignment to evil. (pg 198-199 PHB) 2: Material Component. Each time you cast this spell you must use up 25gp per HD of undead created in onyx.(pg 199 PHB) Example a human skeleton has one HD so it would cost 25gp to create.(pg 226 MM) But a human zombie has two HD so it would cost 50gp to create.(pg 266 MM) 3: HD Limit. The cleric can control no more then twice his hit dice in undead. Any undead he creates above that mark means that undead previously controlled are freed. Example an 8th level cleric has two ogre zombies for a total of 16 HD of undead. He then tries to create a human skeleton; this will put him at 17 HD of undead. As a result one of his ogre zombies breaks free of his control. (pg 199 PHB) If your cleric is evil, and the party doesn’t care, then he is well with in his rights to use this spell to raise a "trap springer" on the spot. However if he is keeping a supply of undead raised and ready there are several ways to deal with it.... -Where is he keeping them well in town? Most city guards wouldn't allow someone to enter town with zombies and skeletons in tow. And if he doesn’t hide them well enough the new adventures in town may be asked to look into the reports of undead outside the city. -What do the bad guys see? If an intelligent mob (int 5 or higher) sees a bunch of undead that can be dropped in one hit, they’ll attack it. Kill the weak like first. Then if it knows anything about undead or magic it will go for the cleric to keep him from making more. -Where is he getting his components? Unless he's carrying around a bag of onyx stones he can't use the spell. And even buying these stones can prove to be problematic. Any cleric or wizard should get a Spellcraft roll to recognize why he's buying them. If the NPC is good then they wouldn't want to help him create an army of undead. Even if they are evil they may call the town guard and report him, after all no one want trouble brewing in their hometown. -If this is an evil campaign and their fighting Good NPC's, simply throw a cleric of Pelor at him with the sun domain. One Greater Turning later your problem is solved.
Jagyr Ebonwood 10-24-05, 01:42 PM	-Where is he keeping them well in town? Personally, I'd find a secluded spot just outside of town (everyone knows there's always a forest right outside of town), and command the undead to lie down on the ground and not move until I got back. If someone happens upon them, they will be alarmed at the discovery of a dozen or so dead bodies/remains, but at least they won't run to town yelling about the living dead... Of course, magical examination might prove otherwise, but that's always a risk.
erc1971 10-24-05, 02:05 PM	Quote: A level 9 TN (wiz 3/clr 3/TN 3) would have 48 HD of skeletons under his control. Quote #2: HD Limit. The cleric can control no more then twice his hit dice in undead Quote # 3 Freddy was reanimated several times **************************************** ************ A caster can control a maximum of 4 times thier caster level in undead at any one time. Normally, they can create 2 times thier caster level in 1 casting, unless they are inside the effects of a desecrate spell, which then allows them to create up to 4 times thier hit dice in 1 casting. A level 9 True Necromancer can therefore control 24 hit dice (caster level 6, plus maybe an extra caster level from necromantic prowess, LM not in front of me right now). In addition, the animate dead spell says that you can NOT animate any corpse that has been a skeleton or zombie in the past. My main beef with this spell, is there is nothing in any of the books that I can find that describes how the control over undead works. What is the range if any? Is it mental, talking? How much motor skill can the caster's commands give to the undead? (such as having them grapple, trip, etc)
Murrdox 10-24-05, 02:05 PM	A few things to keep in mind about Animate Dead: I played a true neutral cleric who raised the undead previously. I used to keep 2-3 skeletons/zombies with me. I'll elaborate. 1: Necromancy (Evil) spell. That means that casting this spell is an evil act. If the cleric is already evil, then no big deal. If not then repeated castings will slowly force his alignment to evil. (pg 198-199 PHB) I disagree with this. I don't have the player's handbook in front of me, so I'd have to read this section. Personally as a DM, if this is true, and not an "optional" rule, than as a DM I would ignore it. Character actions determine alignment, not spell selection, IMO. A "Meteor Swarm" cast on a villiage of innocent people is going to cause a player to shift to Evil. Animating 20 Zombies to assist in the labor of dragging logged trees from a forest to rebuild a farmer's burnt down house is not evil, even though you cast an "evil" spell. If it's in the Player's Handbook, so be it. I'd probably alter that interpretation of alignment though. 2: Material Component. Each time you cast this spell you must use up 25gp per HD of undead created in onyx.(pg 199 PHB) Example a human skeleton has one HD so it would cost 25gp to create.(pg 226 MM) But a human zombie has two HD so it would cost 50gp to create.(pg 266 MM) At level 8 (before my cleric died) I kept a supply of black onyxs on me at all times. I ran out occasionally, and sometimes I was not in an area where I could replinish my supply, but that didn't happen too often. 3: HD Limit. The cleric can control no more then twice his hit dice in undead. Any undead he creates above that mark means that undead previously controlled are freed. Example an 8th level cleric has two ogre zombies for a total of 16 HD of undead. He then tries to create a human skeleton; this will put him at 17 HD of undead. As a result one of his ogre zombies breaks free of his control. (pg 199 PHB) Yeap. Keep the limitations in mind. If your cleric is evil, and the party doesn’t care, then he is well with in his rights to use this spell to raise a "trap springer" on the spot. However if he is keeping a supply of undead raised and ready there are several ways to deal with it.... -Where is he keeping them well in town? Most city guards wouldn't allow someone to enter town with zombies and skeletons in tow. And if he doesn’t hide them well enough the new adventures in town may be asked to look into the reports of undead outside the city. This is going to sound really weird, but here's what I did with my cleric. All my zombies/skeletons carried wooden gravemarkers (in the case of my God it was a wooden plank with a hand insignia burned into it) and the gravemarkers had the names of the zombies/skeletons on it. When I went to a civilized area, the zombies/skeletons were commanded to dig a shallow grave for themselves, and I would plant the headstones on the graves. This action doubled as following the teachings of my God, and also hiding my servants. I know it sounds weird :)
Red_Ninja 10-28-05, 02:30 PM	erc1971- you are right- in my game, since I insituted "maintenance" I turned off the "no re-animation rule" the PCs had to find new arms and skulls to re-assemble their minions, so most often they just animated new ones. On this subject (ok tangent subject) I made a LG NPC cleric that attacked them- the NPC animated the dust from successful turning attempts into "dust zombies" allowed by his deity- At the start of the battle, the NPC dusted most of the PC's minions, and in the next round animated them as "dust zombies" that turned on the PCs [my dust zombies had 2hd, AC15, -4 init, 1 attack +2 to hit, 1d6dmg, immune to turning, rebuking, and wresting control from owner DR 5/ overcome by bludgeoning, regen 1/hp per round, do not re-animate] - it was pretty sweet. Murrdox - i did have a table for that little like the grenade like missiles- roll 1d8 1-head issue- example skull crumbled to dust, must be replaced 2- torso issue- example hip is broken, apply wooden fix, or replace 3-right arm issue- example, wrist is broken 50% of slam attack do 1/2 dmg, apply splint or replace 4- left arm issue- example, shoulder is broken, -1 to hit, reset neccessary, likely to re-occur if not maintained 5- right leg issue- example, to much meat missing, 1/2 movement, must be replaced 6- left leg isse- example, sprained ankle, additional -2 to initiative, set, or apply splint, cast or replace 7- skin issue- example zombie is decaying at accellerated rate due to maggot infestation, 50% reduction in HP, no fix 8-other issue- example zombie confuses orders 30% of the time acting as if confused in combat Nothing special, but it made things interesting! Also, the PCs accumulated far more undead by stealing them than by animating them. Animating them jsut wasn't worth it after a while. Once the group averaged around 8th level, there wasn't a point to raise undead minions, except in special cases.
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 10-28-05, 02:43 PM	Quote: A level 9 TN (wiz 3/clr 3/TN 3) would have 48 HD of skeletons under his control. Quote #2: HD Limit. The cleric can control no more then twice his hit dice in undead Quote # 3 Freddy was reanimated several times **************************************** ************ A caster can control a maximum of 4 times thier caster level in undead at any one time. Normally, they can create 2 times thier caster level in 1 casting, unless they are inside the effects of a desecrate spell, which then allows them to create up to 4 times thier hit dice in 1 casting. A level 9 True Necromancer can therefore control 24 hit dice (caster level 6, plus maybe an extra caster level from necromantic prowess, LM not in front of me right now). In addition, the animate dead spell says that you can NOT animate any corpse that has been a skeleton or zombie in the past. My main beef with this spell, is there is nothing in any of the books that I can find that describes how the control over undead works. What is the range if any? Is it mental, talking? How much motor skill can the caster's commands give to the undead? (such as having them grapple, trip, etc) The True Necromancer has a class ability that expands the number of undead you can control. Toss in a few magic items that do not name their bonus and do not state that they don't stack, and you can have a True Necromancer controlling well in excess of 16 times his or her HD. It's in Libris Mortis, along with a few feats called Corpsecrafter feats that can beef up even your typical horde of zombies into a really DURABLE horde of zombies.
Skyscraper 10-28-05, 02:57 PM	Character actions determine alignment, not spell selection, IMO. A "Meteor Swarm" cast on a villiage of innocent people is going to cause a player to shift to Evil. Animating 20 Zombies to assist in the labor of dragging logged trees from a forest to rebuild a farmer's burnt down house is not evil, even though you cast an "evil" spell. I'm not too fond of tracing a clear line between good and evil (alignment is secondary in my games), but i would think that having corpses walking around to do chores would be clearly evil. Those were people some time ago. People with families, lives, ... Now you want to have their corpses walk around in a mock attempt at life which is undeath. A state where these corpses are imbued with negative energy to allow them to walk the earth in a perpetual hatred of life. That is what undeath is all about. Raising a corpse is evil in itself IMO, even though you might use the corpses for whatever beneficial labor. This is not a mage hand, this is a walking corpse. Think about being there, in front of a human being brought back to life, slowly decaying in front of your eyes... Forget the cold analysis of someone sitting around a gaming table that thinks "gee, we need to move those trees around, let me bring in a few pairs of hands", and think about actually being there, channeling the energy from the negative plane to raise dead corpses and bring them back in what is considered a cursed state, that of undeath. Not evil? I disagree. Evil at its very core. What you do with that evil afterwards may be beneficial for some, but it was evil before you even started to do anything beneficial with it. Sky
Finarin Panjoro 10-28-05, 03:57 PM	Actually can't an evil cleric control 6 times his hit dice in undead? 2 xHD using rebuke/command attempts and 4 xHD using the animate dead spell. Keep in mind that an opposed cleric turning them is only an issue if the necromantic character or a clerical ally can't bolster them. Last time my PCs went against zombies they were effectively 6 HD due to a bolster by an evil cleric. Even when the cleric could successfully turn them (which was rare at 3rd level) he only turned one or two of them and in the end gave up.
Adraedan 10-28-05, 04:31 PM	My last game had a cleric who raised a cloud giant skeleton. The thing was a tank, pretty good damage too...but then they fought a death knight who used command undead...and well, you get the picture.
jokem 10-28-05, 04:38 PM	As far as turning the undead back on the caster, dispel magic automatically works on ones own magic, and can Animate Dead be dispelled? Also, a Cleric can only control so many undead at a time, right? So this 'army' is mostly motionless, uncommanded corpses, right? Managing these to get them move to where you want can be a organizational nightmare?