Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mhutchins 12-10-04, 10:59 PM	I was curious about a rule that I saw being used as a house rule in a online game I was considering using. The system really seems to hamstring heavy fighters. The Dm is ignoring that Attack bonus= Str +BAB+ other mods. Instead, he opts for Attack bonus= Dex+ BAB + other mods. I honestly think this REALLY hurts those in heavy armor, or those who are strength based. Also, as for weapon finese, he instead does dex mod to damage instead of strength. Any thoughts? The idea makes me sick to my stomach.
Kainy 12-10-04, 11:02 PM	Maybe he's trying to make DEX fighters a viable option. A better rule would probably be DEX or STR to attack, whichever is higher, if that's the case.
Bringslite 12-10-04, 11:10 PM	There is a feat combat finese IIRC for using your dex and light weapons. This leaves the option open to use strength or dex.
Gnomish Zombie 12-10-04, 11:22 PM	that sounds pretty horrible. There doesn't seem to be any reason to have str in a game like this except for carrying stuff around and a few checks... My thoughts are this is stupid. Could have been ok if it didn't allow dex bonus to damage... it's just plain stupid, especially vs undead or something
paradoxmage 12-11-04, 01:32 AM	IMO people can do whatever they want in there game. Won’t be happening in mine I know that.
Invarus 12-11-04, 01:42 AM	Well technically it's not sooo bad. You'll still need strength if you want to be dealing respectable damage.
Duvanok 12-11-04, 01:57 AM	Sounds like this guy is seriously nerfing a very basic and core idea of the game. This rule makes Dex more powerful than any other attribute and seriously cripples strength. Uh ho... wait... I feel something... something strange... oh Gods no! No! NO!!! :rant: RANT ALERT! In the amount of time I have spent on these boards the ideas of house rules have gotten a lot of attention. Some house rules I have read on these boards are acceptable, most aren't so acceptable but hey if that's what floats their boat, fine. But then there are the rules like the one in the subject of this thread, that go so far outside of what this game should be that is just burns me up! Why?! Dear Gods Why, would anyone think it is okay to make these drastic changes to the game and think that players would still want to play? Moreover, where do these people get off thinking that they have the knowledge or even the right to alter the rules so drastically?! The ego on these type of people must be huge! "Here's how I think the game rules should have been written. My way makes the game so much fun for everyone." Gimme a break. Step away from your own ego for a second and try thinking about how you can provide a good, fun game for your players instead of messing with rules you obviously don't understand in the first place. :twitch: That felt good.
Mhutchins 12-11-04, 02:15 AM	He thinks it makes it more accurate and 'realistic'. He is trying ot be a swordsman in real life, and I believe he is thinking finese is needed to hit a target, rather than sheer strength helping you hit accurately.
Invarus 12-11-04, 02:20 AM	Eh. Nothing unrealistic about your ability to hit something being dependent on your dexterity. It's also reasonable that your ability to hit something is dependent on your strength. The only problem is whether that means strength will be terribly unimportant in the future.
Vharuck 12-11-04, 02:43 AM	One's dexterity can be used as a method of circumventing armor, hence Weapon Finesse. However, D&D works of the idea of Medieval combat, where armor was pretty well-made and the only way of hurting somebody was to hit him harder. The stronger you are, the more likely you are to deliver blows that hurt even through the armor.
Erix d'Pheer 12-11-04, 03:23 AM	Seems like he's forgetting the Number One Rule About Making Rules: Whenever flavor or realism clashes with balance, balance must always win. Maybe his rule is more realistic. So what? It makes Strength completely useless and Dexterity the most important stat by far. So you made the game more realistic while, oops, also making it unplayable. Good job.
Invarus 12-11-04, 03:39 AM	Oh c'mon, it doesn't make strength useless, it just makes it secondary. You're still going to need strength to keep in light load and deal damage. I agree though, that it's probably best to just keep things as they are.
Asciiman 12-11-04, 05:51 AM	There are a quite a few different games out there that use this principle as well. Like GURPS and HERO all use the idea that dexterity would allow you to hit, but they try and balance it. In systems that use dexterity in this way, dexterity costs about four times as much as any other stat to buy. This is to prevent soley DEX based characters. It is balanced there, but if you just changed what you mentioned and nothing else, then quite simply, it is unbalanced. Just as Erix d'Pheer stated, balance must always win. If you do have to play in this game, then play a mage or cleric and focus on the mental stats, unless he's screwing them all over the place to.
Lord_Anthrax 12-11-04, 08:23 AM	First of all, that ruling makes the game more realistic, since your Strength drives how hard you can hit, and your Dexterity how well you can hit. Second of all, it's a bad idea to do this in D&D. D&D is NOT realistic. D&D is a jumped-up wargame. Always has been, and with any luck always will be. It throws things out of balance that were in balance to begin. Weapon Finesse was the counterbalance to the high-Str fighter type. In this ruling, Weapon Finesse throws things completely out of balance. I suppose Power Attack is now based on Dex and not Str, then? What about Barbarian Rage? Does it now give a Dex bonus instead?
IceFractal 12-11-04, 02:33 PM	I've tried it, and it definately affects the balance. One game I was trying for a more realistic combat system: Armor provides DR instead of AC, a hit means that you touched them, not that you penetrated their armor, so Dex determined attack bonus, and HP were lower and didn't change as much from level to level. What I found in that game was that Dex was roughly equal to Str and Con combined, since it determined AC, attack bonus, and initiative, as well as skill checks and reflex saves - compared to HP, damage bonus, fortitude saves, carrying capacity, and skills checks for Str/Con. So you could do things that way, but if you did you'd want to make Dex cost more (more points in point buy, Dex boosting items/spells cost more, you can only put X number of the levelling stat boosts you get into Dex, etc).
TheGreenGriffon 12-11-04, 04:04 PM	I have to agree. I usually dont post on house rule debates but this one managed to grab my attention. This is perhaps one of the WORST house rules I have ever seen! There is a reason people play fighters because they have the easiest time hitting on average with a melee weapon than anyone else. If you like brute force usually this is the class for you, it also makes your character reliant on powerful and expensive magic items for protection when cheap armor for your fighter would be just as effective and cheaper. Even magical armor is among the cheapest of magic items in the game. Does this apply to all weapons?! Can anyone really say that a tinly little weakling can wield a wicked Greatsword just because he has a high dex? Not likely. It takes strength to swing many weapons and thats why Weapon Fineasse only works with Light weapons First of all, that ruling makes the game more realistic, since your Strength drives how hard you can hit, and your Dexterity how well you can hit. Only in some situations when you are using extremely light melee weapons as mentioned above or when using a ranged weapon. heavy weapons use very little dexterity, they use muscle to properly swing a weapon and not be carried away by its weight, it doesnt matter how well you can do back flips, after a few swings a character with a 10 str and a 20 dex is gonna start slowing down as his muscles begin ripping apart. I laugh myself nearly to death when I watch anime or play a RPG video game where this little shrimp wields this HUGE sword bigger than his whole body that must weight close to a 100 pounds and he does it with one hand while tumbling and jumping 20 feet into the air. Come one there are some points when the lines between reality and fiction are so bold they practically smack you in the face with the absurdity of it. I love Fantasy and playing these games but as the same time my suspension of disbelief can only be stretched so far, I accpet the magic parts because I know thats the fantasy elemnt of such the game and its taken for granted as such. However sword play and strength are based on real things, the game just doesnt seem realistic because there are no visuals and most ordinary everyday people dont see the martial components the rules were based on, they have some fantasy elements to them but at the same time these are general rules based on martial weapon fighting styles.
e-z0r 12-11-04, 09:13 PM	I laugh myself nearly to death when I watch anime or play a RPG video game where this little shrimp wields this HUGE sword bigger than his whole body that must weight close to a 100 pounds and he does it with one hand while tumbling and jumping 20 feet into the air. Come one there are some points when the lines between reality and fiction are so bold they practically smack you in the face with the absurdity of it. http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=010422
FriendoftheDork 12-12-04, 04:06 AM	although I think dex should be more important to hit something than str, the weapon finesse house rule about dex to damage is just silly. The system is balanced as it is, if you change the melee to be dex-based then you'll need to do other things to balance it out.
MortalPlague 12-12-04, 12:39 PM	I actually sort of like this rule. The DEX to hit and STR to damage rule has always somewhat appealed to me. To balance it, I'd suggest something like this; armor as DR instead of AC, double the HP bonus from CON, double the damage bonus from STR. Give certain weapons (or certain sizes of weapons) a STR prerequisite. Sure, I'm tearing the game's balance to shreds, but wouldn't it be fun to try? ;)
Nephite 12-12-04, 01:06 PM	I have a rapier, and I have used it before. I know I'm not that good at it, but I can definintly say that you can really either on the hand-eye coordination and quick movement, or you can just jab as hard as you can to score a hit with it. My friend has a longsword. I've used this as well, and can honestly say that it requires a lot more strength than anything else. Maybe it's just because I suck at it, but honestly I cannot see someone using only their dexterity to be able to weild one. And trying going outside and swinging a greatsword around for a couple of minutes. Chances are you won't be using anything but strength. In one of the campaigns I play in, one of the PCs has a strength of 10 but a dex of 24. He took WF and IWF, the former letting him use dex to hit and the latter letting him use dex for damage. I'll ask him what book that feat is in next time I talk to him, but there is a feat out there that lets you do it already.
delroland 12-12-04, 01:24 PM	I don't see the problem with this house rule. Sure, it changes the style of play, but that is what house rules are meant to do! Otherwise, no one would use them! Sure, it makes Dex a more powerful stat. But it is no more powerful than Str is now. It also allows for the classic face-off between samurai and knight, where the knight can't hit the samurai, and the samurai can't get through the knight's armor. To balance this rule, though, I would use the optional "Armor as DR" rule from UA. This would make Str even more important, as a high Dex low Str fighter will not be able to significantly damage an opponent in full plate. Example: Str 16 Dex 10 lvl 4 knight in FP w/ shield and bastard sword has AC 16, DR 4, Atk +4. Str 10 Dex 16 samurai in partial armor w/ katana (2h) has AC 16, DR 2, Atk +7. Knight: hits 45% of time for avg 6.8825 dmg (DPR = 3.097125) Samurai: hits 60% of time for avg 2.3964 dmg (DPR = 1.43784) As you can see, FP is still superior if you use the "Armor as DR" rule.
trapspringer 12-12-04, 02:02 PM	So abuse it. Basically everyone gets weapon finess for free, right? Make a dex-based fighter. Actually, since you have the extra feat, go TWF. That way, you turn your DMs house rule into an extra attack for free. Boo-hoo.
Saiph 12-12-04, 06:43 PM	His reality: Strength doesn't help to hit Dex does Strength Helps with damage Dex helps place the sword to do damage with less effort. Reality: Strength does help...you can just plain bash through defenses. Try to parry a strong man if you're weak. A roommate of mine is in SCA, the medieval reinactment group, and goes to fighter training weakly. Sure, dex helps. It lets you parry faster, strike faster etc. But strength is required just to survive a blow. One head fighter there just uses two "longswords" and smacks right through anyone's defenses. That, coupled with his size and slightly longer reach, means he's barely scratched at the end of a melee. If he wanted reality, he should institute diminishing returns. Strength helps, sure, to a point. If you're so sluggish you have to smash through a parry every time, you're not to effective. And you can only bash things so hard. Same goes with dex, you can only be so fast. Of course, that is a huge revamping of DnD, with it's linear ability progression you can be as strong as you'd like. As is, DnD does fine. Dex is already a strong stat, requiring a feat for using it to attack helps balance, and explains why any novice that picks up a sword just tries to smash through your defenses. it's not as easy to finesse a blow, therefore it requires a feat.