Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 09-17-07, 09:18 PM	Ever intend to set up a new campaign, and you assemble your players, and one wants to play a class that, you know, wont' be That influential in the game? In my instance, I have a campaign where they're going into a demon-infested desert full of nasty vermin and fiendish animals and such. And a player wants to play a Spirit Shaman. A Spirit qualifies as (Incorporeal undead, fey, elemental, creature in astral form, spirit creature (Oriental adventures), etc. I just don't see myself using That many of them. Some, sure. I told the player this much. I just feel kinda guilty about them wanting to play a class whose abilities aren't likely to come into play all that often (like a rogue in an undead-centric campaign). Anybody have experience with this?
Vanraya 09-17-07, 09:24 PM	Ever intend to set up a new campaign, and you assemble your players, and one wants to play a class that, you know, wont' be That influential in the game? In my instance, I have a campaign where they're going into a demon-infested desert full of nasty vermin and fiendish animals and such. And a player wants to play a Spirit Shaman. A Spirit qualifies as (Incorporeal undead, fey, elemental, creature in astral form, spirit creature (Oriental adventures), etc. I just don't see myself using That many of them. Some, sure. I told the player this much. I just feel kinda guilty about them wanting to play a class whose abilities aren't likely to come into play all that often (like a rogue in an undead-centric campaign). Anybody have experience with this? Well, beyond Chastice Spirit and Protection from Spirits, Spirit Shamans also have a lot of other abilites. Like Ghost Warrior and etc. etc. those are great abilities. Another option is to expand the list, just have a good reason to do so. But like I said, the Spirit Shaman has a lot of great abilites that dont involve spirits.
Kapawww!! 09-17-07, 09:31 PM	I've experienced that problem many times. For classes, I find that the best method is to tell your players (before character creation) what classes they can use, which usually ends up being core classes and any sourcebooks you are familiar with. It is always good to explain to the players why you are limiting their selection of classes. I find the best way is to tell the players a bit of commonly known history of your campaign world, or any other relevant information that helps them know what kind of campaign theme you are going for.
Rechan 09-17-07, 09:35 PM	Well, beyond Chastice Spirit and Protection from Spirits, Spirit Shamans also have a lot of other abilites. Like Ghost Warrior and etc. etc. those are great abilities. Actually I'm looking at it right now, and aside from Spirit Form, Guide magic, Recall Spirit and Exorcism, I just don't see any of the spirit shaman's abilities being useful in my game.
Vanraya 09-17-07, 10:23 PM	Actually I'm looking at it right now, and aside from Spirit Form, Guide magic, Recall Spirit and Exorcism, I just don't see any of the spirit shaman's abilities being useful in my game. Not spirit journey, and a free alertness feat (yeah yeah, it's just alertness)? Eh, different strokes for different folks. Still, I dont think the spirit shammy gives up too much in a game without spirits. He's going to be able to cast all day and be able to switch out his spells per day, win/win. With spontaneous healer he can even drop his healing spells to free up more slots.
Rechan 09-17-07, 10:38 PM	Not spirit journey, and a free alertness feat (yeah yeah, it's just alertness)? Spirit Journey is 17th level. I've never had a campaign go to 10th, much less 17th. Although having a hefty spell system on the Druid list is sweet. I mean, Druids have some of the wickedest spells. I shudder at the thought of unloading multiple Flamestrikes.
Vanraya 09-17-07, 11:24 PM	Spirit Journey is 17th level. I've never had a campaign go to 10th, much less 17th. Although having a hefty spell system on the Druid list is sweet. I mean, Druids have some of the wickedest spells. I shudder at the thought of unloading multiple Flamestrikes. If you havent gathered yet, I play one in one of the games I actually get to play in (albeit I have plenty of spirit targets to blast away at, but not recently). The spell-casting alone is worth it. If you have the Spell Compendium, he'll be just fine. The Zen Archery feat from complete warrior and 7 splinterbolts a day is just nuts.
Keladelros 09-18-07, 12:30 AM	Oh god yes man. GOD yes... I am running pirate based campaign. There are several classes that work very well for this game and I cater to those ones. Namely Swashbucklers, Rogues, Bards, Fighters, Rangers, Sorc's. Sure enough one of them wants to play a cleric/necromancer My favorite thing is that one of them actually wanted to argue with me and tell me that he could make a Knight (PHB2) work in a pirate campaign... that didn't happen... You're not alone. Set boundaries and explain why it isn't good. If need be, limit the classes.
Starcloud 09-18-07, 12:42 AM	I dunno... there are plenty of tales of "desert spirits" of various sorts, spirits of the air, spirits of the sun, spirits of the sand, spirits of the water, spirits of an oasis, etc etc. The djinn/jann/ifrit (efreet)/marid/dao would probably count as well. In general, yes, you can limit classes available in your campaign.
omnicrondelicious 09-18-07, 01:09 AM	Yep, this has happened to me a long time ago. Ever since I've always collaborated with the players in advance of the campaign start, getting buy-in and integrating their desires with mine. Hasn't been a problem since. A bit of communication and coordination goes a long way. Of course, it means that I haven't been able to run several campaigns that I'm really excited about - I never quite got the quorum of people I'd need. Oh well, that's the way the dice fall sometimes.
Rechan 09-18-07, 01:15 AM	I am running pirate based campaign. There are several classes that work very well for this game and I cater to those ones. Namely Swashbucklers, Rogues, Bards, Fighters, Rangers, Sorc's. Sure enough one of them wants to play a cleric/necromancer Now see, I could see a Necromancer working, after seeing Pirates of the Carribean. ;)
Rechan 09-18-07, 01:17 AM	I dunno... there are plenty of tales of "desert spirits" of various sorts, spirits of the air, spirits of the sun, spirits of the sand, spirits of the water, spirits of an oasis, etc etc. The djinn/jann/ifrit (efreet)/marid/dao would probably count as well. Well be aware this is Nevada style desert, not Sahara. I'm aware that there are various elementals that Fit, I just don't intend to use them that much. They are going to be very few and far between. It's pretty much a demon-fightin' campaign. It's even worse when the sorcerer looked at me and said "I want to be a cold sorcerer" and guess how many outsiders have resistance cold? :P
Keladelros 09-18-07, 01:33 AM	Now see, I could see a Necromancer working, after seeing Pirates of the Carribean. ;) Oh nice. :) But seeing as how its a Necromancer who wants to captain a ship full of undead alongside a normal pirate captain (who hates undead) it doesn't really work out...
Cifer 09-18-07, 07:30 AM	It's even worse when the sorcerer looked at me and said "I want to be a cold sorcerer" and guess how many outsiders have resistance cold? Piercing Cold from Frostburn takes care of that.
TheGreatSanguini 09-18-07, 07:38 AM	It's even worse when the sorcerer looked at me and said "I want to be a cold sorcerer" and guess how many outsiders have resistance cold? Well the answer is simple, cast it on your arrows to make them cold iron! :P
Grumman 09-18-07, 07:50 AM	Piercing Cold from Frostburn takes care of that. Yeah, but Piercing Cold and Scorching Spell are silly. So hot it can burn a fire elemental? What were they smoking?
Hack and Smasher 09-18-07, 09:34 AM	I just give them fair warning like "this is gonna be pirate game, that means on boat alot, so heavy armour is gonna be bad." or "artic game so cold is gonna be a bad choice since most things are likely to have some cold resistance" or simliar if they wanna do it anyway let them, if they die you warned them.
Puca 09-18-07, 10:45 AM	Personally, I dont think you as a DM are responsible for your players choices. I dont agree with those who advise limiting the classes to those “you think will work” or those who dismiss out of hand a players concept as unworkable. You make the setting and the adventures. They get the characters. If you tell them basically what the campaign is going to be like (the environment, the hook, the general flavor, etc.) and they make something that you think will be useless, well I can see pointing out your concerns, but thats about it. It isnt your job to save them from their mistakes. (If it is a mistake. They might know what theyre doing.) In the OPs case: You told him there would be no spirits, yes. He still wants to play one? Fine. You did your job. If it fails, no one can blame you. His choice, his informed choice.
Drag0nUL 09-18-07, 11:09 AM	Of course any DM can limit what classes are available in his/her campaign. But that doesn't mean that he should. In your case: you told the player that some of his class abilities would be almost useless in your campaign. If he still wants to play it despite this disadvantage, I don't see it any harm coming from it. The only case I think a DM should restrict class choices(apart from balance reasons) is when the presence of such a character would really disrupt the campaign (such as a paladin in a pirate game).
Starcloud 09-18-07, 03:09 PM	Well be aware this is Nevada style desert, not Sahara. I'm aware that there are various elementals that Fit, I just don't intend to use them that much. They are going to be very few and far between. It's pretty much a demon-fightin' campaign. I seem to recall a number of Native American myths about spirit creatures in the deserts, both of helpful types and hindering types. Just a thought.
Starcloud 09-18-07, 03:11 PM	Yeah, but Piercing Cold and Scorching Spell are silly. So hot it can burn a fire elemental? What were they smoking? Just because a fire elemental is made of pure fire doesnt' mean it can exist in, say, the photosphere of the sun. :)
Nephlite 09-18-07, 03:29 PM	Yeah, but Piercing Cold and Scorching Spell are silly. So hot it can burn a fire elemental? What were they smoking? Maybe they were watching the D&D Anime called Bastard; He was an wizard (Sorc) who focused on fire/Ligthtning. He used fire on a a fire immune creature and it hurt him. Scorching spell, w00t!
Thubby 09-18-07, 04:07 PM	I rarely if ever limit classes. I'll warn them if they pick something that won't do well or won't get alot of spot light.(like your spirit shaman fellow) if they want to do it anyway, more power to them. there's almost always an easy way to fit a character into a story. to take the threads name. anyone here seen "the 13th warrior"? its basicaly exactly that, a quick light fighter among great sword wielding giants.
Cifer 09-18-07, 05:02 PM	Yeah, but Piercing Cold and Scorching Spell are silly. So hot it can burn a fire elemental? What were they smoking? Oh, it does make some sense, as soon as you go at it from another angle: "You're the embodiment of fire? Hah! I am fire incarnate - I can make the very flames of your body turn against you."
Thubby 09-18-07, 05:05 PM	Oh, it does make some sense, as soon as you go at it from another angle: "You're the embodiment of fire? Hah! I am fire incarnate - I can make the very flames of your body turn against you." but then its flame burning flame. its not like they're a flame covered being, like a salamander or those freaky dwarf things.
Cifer 09-18-07, 05:07 PM	Picture it as flame burning the thing within the flames that lives.
Thubby 09-18-07, 05:16 PM	Picture it as flame burning the thing within the flames that lives. but the thing thats living is the flame! its not a flame and soul smoothy. it just is flame.
Cifer 09-18-07, 05:57 PM	but the thing thats living is the flame! its not a flame and soul smoothy. it just is flame. Now, I'd say there's a difference between dead fire (the one burning in your campfire) and living fire (the one attacking you) - and that difference can be removed by someone with enough control over fire.
TheGreatSanguini 09-18-07, 06:03 PM	And I'd say that that doesn't matter, because Piercing Cold and Skorching spell are silly. Amazing how circular logic can create such a waste in board bandwidth, yes?
Thubby 09-18-07, 06:21 PM	And I'd say that that doesn't matter, because Piercing Cold and Skorching spell are silly. Amazing how circular logic can create such a waste in board bandwidth, yes? theres no such thing as a waste of bandwidth so long as we're enjoying it, or something is getting done. im having fun with this, i think cifer is too. and someones views are going to change, or we'll agree to disagree.
Bauglir 09-18-07, 06:41 PM	And, of course, there are other situations to consider as well. Red Dragons, for instance, are immune to fire, but why is it so far-fetched to allow them to take fire damage from someone who has trained (taken a feat) specifically to raise the temperature of their fire spells to the point where it actually starts ripping apart the basic nature of their flesh (combusting individual molecules, as opposed to merely roasting the proteins). Now, extended to Fire Elementals, I could see this as the spell burning so strongly that it consumes whatever resources the Elemental uses to burn rather than actually burning the Elemental itself. On topic, I think that restricting classes based on flavor is bad. Classes exist only as a way of giving rules to what abilities a character might have. Someone might have Druid levels and consider himself a wizard. They just have different rules governing how they work. Similarly, one might have Paladin and Monk levels, but consider oneself a Samurai, simply because that's the caste one falls into in a society. Restricting classes because they have game-breaking potential and your players are known powergamers or because it's extremely easy to make a ridiculously powerful one (Druids) is also ok. Restricting a class because it's too weak shouldn't be. If the player wants the challenge, let them take it. Either they die and play something else, or they do it right and keep on playing it. I could see that Knight working easily. Maybe the pirates have legally become privateers, and the Knight serves to make sure they don't overstep their bounds while providing an air of legitimacy at ports, and providing some support in combat (Naturally, the pirates need only make a modest effort to keep illegal actions a secret, and the Knight's player can choose not to investigate too closely, maybe by giving him a low Wis score). Or maybe he serves an undersea kingdom's lord, and is serving to keep an eye on the pirates to make sure they complete some quest they have been assigned.
Cifer 09-18-07, 07:42 PM	theres no such thing as a waste of bandwidth so long as we're enjoying it, or something is getting done. im having fun with this, i think cifer is too. and someones views are going to change, or we'll agree to disagree. Precisely. After all, we aren't discussing alignment (in which case of course you would all be completely wrong and my opinion would be the only right one :P ).
enlightened 09-19-07, 12:25 AM	Ever intend to set up a new campaign, and you assemble your players, and one wants to play a class that, you know, wont' be That influential in the game? The way I do it may not work for every group, but I never have that problem because I have the players decide the setting. So, it would be impossible for their characters not to match the setting because they picked them both. I also make them come up with the reasons they adventure together. I always wait until I find out what the players want to do before I plan a campaign/adventure, etc. So in other words, if someone is picking a class that doesn't match your campaign that means that you are not supplying the kind of campaign that they want.
Rechan 09-19-07, 12:29 AM	So in other words, if someone is picking a class that doesn't match your campaign that means that you are not supplying the kind of campaign that they want. I vehemently disagree, but okay.
enlightened 09-19-07, 12:57 AM	I vehemently disagree, but okay. So you think that someone picking a class that doesn't match your campaign means that you ARE suppying the kind of game that they want? :confused: That doesn't make any sense.
Sixam 09-19-07, 03:47 AM	Ever intend to set up a new campaign, and you assemble your players, and one wants to play a class that, you know, wont' be That influential in the game? In my instance, I have a campaign where they're going into a demon-infested desert full of nasty vermin and fiendish animals and such. And a player wants to play a Spirit Shaman. A Spirit qualifies as (Incorporeal undead, fey, elemental, creature in astral form, spirit creature (Oriental adventures), etc. I just don't see myself using That many of them. Some, sure. I told the player this much. I just feel kinda guilty about them wanting to play a class whose abilities aren't likely to come into play all that often (like a rogue in an undead-centric campaign). Anybody have experience with this? Spirit Shamans have full access to the Druid spell-list. Particularly relevant in your vermin and fiendish animal campaign are RAW starter spells such as Hide From Animals, Charm Animal, Speak With Animals, Animal Trance, Hold Animal, the Wild Empathy class feature (and Cha as his primary stat), etc. He'll be fine. If he plays the character right, he'll likely be the best suited for what it sounds like you have planned.
Grumman 09-19-07, 04:46 AM	So you think that someone picking a class that doesn't match your campaign means that you ARE suppying the kind of game that they want? :confused: That doesn't make any sense. I think he was saying that just because their first choice isn't really suitable, doesn't mean that they aren't going to enjoy the game. I'm sure I'm not the only one with pages of wacky character ideas, any of which I'd be happy to play.
omnicrondelicious 09-19-07, 04:46 AM	So you think that someone picking a class that doesn't match your campaign means that you ARE suppying the kind of game that they want? :confused: That doesn't make any sense. Well, that's not a fair way of putting it. There's a communication disconnect in Rechan's situation. Campaigns get planned in a variety of ways: I have this campaign idea that I'm super-excited about, here's the idea, do you want in? I have some ideas about what campaign I'd like to run, you all have ideas, let's collaborate until we make something we all like I can happily run with anything you guys can throw at me - so what would you like? I've got a vision that I'm more-or-less going to try and shoe-horn you guys into Obviously he's not doing the third which sounds like your preferred style. If it's the fourth, that's just going to lead to both him and his players getting frustrated. If he's doing either of the first two where he's secured buy-in from everyone and then some knucklehead changes his mind and makes something inappropriate then he's right to be concerned and/or annoyed. I remember one time I ran a really strongly religious campaign, a holy war type adventure arc, with really devout characters. I pitched the idea to several friends and some of them liked it and wanted in. But it turned out that one of the guys really wanted to play his preferred archetype: the amoral, impious, thief. Total disconnect. So who's fault was it - mine for not wanting to accommodate, or his for feigning buy-in?
Rechan 09-19-07, 09:32 AM	So you think that someone picking a class that doesn't match your campaign means that you ARE suppying the kind of game that they want? :confused: In my experience, you give a group of people an open-ended question of "What do you want to play in" and they're not going to reach much of a consensus. One wants to play in Eberron; the specifics of the campaign doesn't matter. Another can't stand Eberron; he wants to play in a Good Vs. Evil earth shaking campaign like LotR. One wants an evil campaign, horror or an investigation campaign. Another wants a PC-centric campaign; instead of adventures that come to them, they want to set up goals (i.e. I want to take over my ancestral home) and pursue it. Another doesn't know/doesn't care. For instance, there are several characters that I want to play, Period. Like a kobold paladin of Bahemut who believes kobolds are descendants of Metallics, and Chromats just corrupted them; he's on a holy mission to convert his fellows, build a Metallic-sympathetic nest, and make a Name for Kobolds Everywhere. Should I expect any DM I come across to make their campaign suit my character, or should I wait for a campaign where it fits?
Rechan 09-19-07, 09:45 AM	I think that restricting classes based on flavor is bad. Classes exist only as a way of giving rules to what abilities a character might have. Someone might have Druid levels and consider himself a wizard. They just have different rules governing how they work. Similarly, one might have Paladin and Monk levels, but consider oneself a Samurai, simply because that's the caste one falls into in a society. Except that some classes Simply Do Not Fit. If I'm running a Savage Lands campaign - dinosaurs, cavemen, real BC sort of stuff - a Wizard is just not going to fit. A sorcerer does.
Bob Loblaw 09-19-07, 10:12 AM	If the only benefit he is going to get out of the class is the druid spell list, then why not just tell him he can't play the spirit shaman and he should play the druid instead? He'll probably be happier with that choice. He can still use the flavor from the spirit shaman but use the druid class for the mechanics.
Khatoblepas 09-19-07, 11:04 AM	Except that some classes Simply Do Not Fit. If I'm running a Savage Lands campaign - dinosaurs, cavemen, real BC sort of stuff - a Wizard is just not going to fit. A sorcerer does. A shaman type who keeps his spells in a bag of tiny carved bones? Incredibly insightful, knows the ways of the world according to the bones, knows how to carve his Spellbones according to the way the magical winds blow? It doesn't have to be a book, you know. And you can retool flavor however you want. Well be aware this is Nevada style desert, not Sahara. I'm aware that there are various elementals that Fit, I just don't intend to use them that much. They are going to be very few and far between. It's pretty much a demon-fightin' campaign. Is your view of how your campaign is going to be that rigid? D&D is for you all to have fun, you know. The spirit shaman is only a little at-odds with your campaign. Add in some spirits (they're also considered "demons" in some cultures, you know) or change the Spirit Shaman's offensive abilities to encompass some types of evil outsiders. Heck, you might even grow to like the idea of it being in your campaign. Someone who wants to rid the world of abberations of nature (not literally, but demons aren't really natural so they count) by purifying them, and having a friendly opposed spirit to be their guardian angel. Yeah :) Besides which, when I think of the Spirit Shaman, I think of Native American culture too. o_O Why aren't there any spirits in the Nevada desert? (Sidenote: I incorporated a class I didn't originally intend to at one of my player's request, and it's worked out pretty good :D) And as for Piercing Cold/Scorching Spell, it's magic :P I remember one time I ran a really strongly religious campaign, a holy war type adventure arc, with really devout characters. I pitched the idea to several friends and some of them liked it and wanted in. But it turned out that one of the guys really wanted to play his preferred archetype: the amoral, impious, thief. Total disconnect. Man, that sounds like such a great idea for a holy war campaign! Grizzled and jaded, this guy has seen it all before and cannot face the zealotry of the crusaders. He calms the zealots down, and the other characters help him see the good things about being virtuous. Great character development! :D
omnicrondelicious 09-19-07, 01:52 PM	Man, that sounds like such a great idea for a holy war campaign! Grizzled and jaded, this guy has seen it all before and cannot face the zealotry of the crusaders. He calms the zealots down, and the other characters help him see the good things about being virtuous. Great character development! :D Indeed, that would have been great - but that's not the character he wanted: he was playing a selfish greedy yob trying to make a coin, and not at all demonstrating to the others how to be calm, good and virtuous. My basic point is, depending if we agree to campaign A and then the DM goes off and spends many hours planning the campaign and adventure hook, and then comes back and a player now wants a character doesn't suit what you talked about for campaign A, then a DM has a right to be irked/concerned. Someone has to compromise at that point, and so far most people have said it's the GM who should. I'm not so sure I buy that. I think both people should have the capacity to adjust, but the DM has probably invested a heckuva lot more work already. This is deviating from the OP, since I think his circumstances may have been a bit different, but more broadly relevant.
Sixam 09-19-07, 03:08 PM	If the only benefit he is going to get out of the class is the druid spell list, then why not just tell him he can't play the spirit shaman and he should play the druid instead? He'll probably be happier with that choice. He can still use the flavor from the spirit shaman but use the druid class for the mechanics. Shamans also have other abilities over the Druid (nothing quite up to Wild Shape, though), such as being able to wear metal armor, incorporeal x/day, all their weapons and armor becoming Ghost Touch at no cost, etc. Maybe the player feels being able to swap out what spells the character knows while still being able to cast spontaneously is a pretty useful ability? Or be able to cast as often as a sorcerer, but learn at the rate of a Wizard. No other class but the Shaman gets that. They also have the single best metamagic system of any class, once you find a way to reduce the cost of the metamagic involved. As a fan of the class though, I beg you give your buddy the pointer to take Scribe Scroll as a 1st level feat. Spirit Shamans. They're whats for dinner.
Rechan 09-19-07, 04:18 PM	A shaman type who keeps his spells in a bag of tiny carved bones? Incredibly insightful, knows the ways of the world according to the bones, knows how to carve his Spellbones according to the way the magical winds blow? Except bones just aren't big enough for that kind've thing. Is your view of how your campaign is going to be that rigid? Yes, it's that rigid. I have said multiple times: the spirit shaman's abilities do not fit my campaign, plain and simple. I was not asking for retcon advice on how to make it fit. If I changed their abilities to be outsider focused, then they'd dominate the game. D&D is meant to be fun; it's not fun for someone to try and shoe-horn a class that I can't offer much in the way of spotlight time to. That gives me a headache.
MrCustomer 09-19-07, 04:51 PM	Ever intend to set up a new campaign, and you assemble your players, and one wants to play a class that, you know, wont' be That influential in the game? In my instance, I have a campaign where they're going into a demon-infested desert full of nasty vermin and fiendish animals and such. And a player wants to play a Spirit Shaman. A Spirit qualifies as (Incorporeal undead, fey, elemental, creature in astral form, spirit creature (Oriental adventures), etc. I just don't see myself using That many of them. Some, sure. I told the player this much. I just feel kinda guilty about them wanting to play a class whose abilities aren't likely to come into play all that often (like a rogue in an undead-centric campaign). Anybody have experience with this? Is it possible that an alternative ability could replace the abilities that become useless because of your game design? I don't mean fudging the rules to make things work, but there is generally a good balanced swap that can be done to make a class workable in these situations. To use your example of the Rogue in an Undead-centric campaign, swapping Sneak Attack for a fighter's base attack would easily balance the Rogue out, his other abilities are still very useful.
Rechan 09-19-07, 05:03 PM	Is it possible that an alternative ability could replace the abilities that become useless because of your game design? I don't mean fudging the rules to make things work, but there is generally a good balanced swap that can be done to make a class workable in these situations. To use your example of the Rogue in an Undead-centric campaign, swapping Sneak Attack for a fighter's base attack would easily balance the Rogue out, his other abilities are still very useful. First of all, I am not interested in adjusting the class. The point of this thread was merely an anecdote of "Gee, that class does not fit my campaign at all" situation and seeing if other DMs have PCs propose inappropriate characters for their intended campaign. Second, have you seen the Spirit Shaman? Out of sixteen class abilities (not counting spellcasting), seven of them relate only to incorporeal undead/fey/elementals/astral creatures/spirit creatures from Oriental Adventures. I don't really see an easy way to swap out 40% of a class's abilities.
enlightened 09-19-07, 05:17 PM	First of all, I am not interested in adjusting the class. But I bet your player would be interested in adjusting the class. What about his feelings, huh? :D The point of this thread was merely an anecdote of "Gee, that class does not fit my campaign at all" situation and seeing if other DMs have PCs propose inappropriate characters for their intended campaign. But if you take a close look at the kinds of responses that you are getting you will see that other DMs aren't having this problem because they are willing to modify either the class or their world to accomodate a player request.
Rechan 09-19-07, 05:24 PM	But I bet your player would be interested in adjusting the class. What about his feelings, huh? :D He doesn't care about the spirit fluff at all. When I responded to him picking the Spirit Shaman with "Well you won't be seeing that many things that qualify as spirits", he reacted with "Yeah, it is really limiting and that's the only real weakness." And that was the end of the discussion. I didn't get the impression that he was married to the concept. Just that it was his first. Well no, I take that back. His first was "Yeah I'll play an Illumian operative who'll kill all the PCs and take their stuff back to his cabal because I hate how the setting handles X Y and Z (given that Y and Z are important to the campaign) and I don't take the badguys in this area seriously at all." But if you take a close look at the kinds of responses that you are getting you will see that other DMs aren't having this problem because they are willing to modify either the class or their world to accomodate a player request. I am getting those responses from several others. I've only seen three that are saying "IT'S YOUR JOB TO FIX IT". And don't start with this "You're just unwilling to adjust it". No, I just see no way to salvage it. I am adjusting a sorcerer to fit what the player wants. Because the sorcerer fits and the character is enthusiastic about the concept. The Shaman does not, and the character is not enthusiastic about it. And I do not appreciate the implication that I am a bad or unreasonable DM because I don't think a class suits the game I'm running.
enlightened 09-19-07, 05:38 PM	There are at least two schools of thought: 1) The players should make characters that fit the world the DM has prepared. 2) The DM should make a world that fits the characters the players have prepared. I, as a DM, couldn't imagine doing anything but number 2. By making a spirit shaman character, your player is telling you that he wants to play in a campaign in which a spirit shaman is a viable character. By making this character, he is asking you to change the world to fit. Players are not interesed in the DM's world. They are only interesed in their characters. Players would much rather change an aspect of the game world to allow a character concept than to limit their choice of characters to match a particular world. Because, as I said, the world is not important to them. As a DM, you want the world to be important to the players but it just isn't.
Rechan 09-19-07, 06:40 PM	There are at least two schools of thought: Emphasis mine. I do not subscribe to either of your schools of thought. You can't imagine doing anything but #2. I can. Because, as I said, the world is not important to them. As a DM, you want the world to be important to the players but it just isn't. You don't seem to get it. The player does not like the campaign setting. The player has said and I quote "I want to take a copy of 2e Planescape and beat the setting author in the skull with it until the book meets the table. Because either you do Planescape justice or you just don't mess with the planes." And other such greviances. So even if I bent over backwards to change the class, it will not make the setting important to the player. And it is not my responsibility to destroy the campaign because one person doesn't like the setting. They are not obligated to play. They are not my friend, so I owe them nothing.
Vanraya 09-19-07, 07:06 PM	well it seems to me, with the rigidity of the DM and the player, it'd be best to just let this thing work itself out. Either the player will quit or reroll. Or the DM will provide a bit of flexibility. My money's on the player quiting, but it's just this hunch I get.
enlightened 09-19-07, 07:07 PM	They are not my friends, so I owe them nothing. They're not your friends? :confused: All of my posts assumed friendship. You don't seem to get it. The player does not like the campaign setting. Why are you using a campaign setting that the player doesn't like? You're right. I don't get it. But then again, if they're not your friends then it really doesn't matter, I guess. Do unto them as you will.
Rechan 09-19-07, 07:13 PM	My money's on the player quiting, but it's just this hunch I get. Given the player hasn't even Decided what they're going to play, much less start making the character sheet, I'm willing to take your bet. They're not your friends? :confused: All of my posts assumed friendship. This is online. I say to the people that are in the room that I frequent "Hey I want to run a game, anybody want to?" and people say "Yes". So it would be the equivalent if I had said "Hey everyone on the WotC boards, I'm starting a Play By Post game, anyone want in? This is the parameters of the game." I knew what setting I was using and what the campaign was before I started - I told everyone Up Front what it was going to be so that they could propose appropriate characters. And because I knew that it's not everyone's cup of tea, so they could say "no" if it didn't sound like something they wanted. Initially this player said "No" and then came back and said "Yeah I'm interested".
Starcloud 09-19-07, 09:26 PM	Emphasis mine. The player does not like the campaign setting. The player has said and I quote "I want to take a copy of 2e Planescape and beat the setting author in the skull with it until the book meets the table. Because either you do Planescape justice or you just don't mess with the planes." And other such greviances. So even if I bent over backwards to change the class, it will not make the setting important to the player. And it is not my responsibility to destroy the campaign because one person doesn't like the setting. They are not obligated to play. They are not my friend, so I owe them nothing. Ah, I'd let it go. If the player doesn't want to make an optimal character, well, that's too bad. If the player then starts getting disruptive because his character isn't optimal for the campaign and he doesn't like the campaign setting and, and, and... then insist that he play a different character that does fit, or kick him out. Kicking someone out tends to be easier online than it is face to face. You can "lock the virtual door" so to speak.
Khatoblepas 09-20-07, 10:41 AM	Except bones just aren't big enough for that kind've thing. What do you mean? A human fingerbone is the equivilant to 1 page (Complete Arcane). o_O Anyway, it seems that since this player isn't enthusiastic (which I assumed he was), you don't know each other well (which I assumed you did), and his first reaction was to try and break your game apart, just don't let him in. He's not playing a Spirit Shaman because he likes the flavor, he's playing it to get on your nerves... I think. Example: "Yeah I'll play an Illumian operative who'll kill all the PCs and take their stuff back to his cabal because I hate how the setting handles X Y and Z (given that Y and Z are important to the campaign) and I don't take the badguys in this area seriously at all." Do you really want that player in your campaign?
MrCustomer 09-20-07, 12:15 PM	First of all, I am not interested in adjusting the class. The point of this thread was merely an anecdote of "Gee, that class does not fit my campaign at all" situation and seeing if other DMs have PCs propose inappropriate characters for their intended campaign. Second, have you seen the Spirit Shaman? Out of sixteen class abilities (not counting spellcasting), seven of them relate only to incorporeal undead/fey/elementals/astral creatures/spirit creatures from Oriental Adventures. I don't really see an easy way to swap out 40% of a class's abilities. As a DM I have PCs propose inappropriate characters for intended campaigns. But I take it that since you posted this here you are asking what your fellow DMs do about it. Well when possible we try to accomidate the player, we see what we can alter in our world, and we see if the character can be adjusted to fit. Now, I don't know much about the Spirit Shaman class, but it sounds to me that he would still have 60% of his class abilities, plus spells. The remaining 40% won't be used much, but I imagine that there are some undead or elementals in your game at least. Even if it is occassional. I can't see your world being so plain and rigid as to not have some of these things at least, makes for a more interesting world if there is even a little variety. You don't have to swap out 40% of his abilities for useful abilities, you can make do with only giving him a single ability that fits your campaign or add a few extra spells to his list that you feel would be in flavour. At the very least you should look at the sheet and your world and ask yourself what you could do for the player to make it work, I beleive that even if you refused to accomidate the Spirit Shaman in the end, that the player should get that courtousy. Secondly, even if he starts as a Spirit Shaman, when he starts to get disalusioned at his lack of power, you can offer him an out saying for example that he could start taking levels in Druid, even retraining some of his feats etc to accomidate.