"Character Development Levels" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Character Development Levels" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Master_Vega
12-07-07, 12:32 PM I've made a similar thread to this before; here's hoping this one gets an answer.

In an upcoming campaign, I'm contemplating giving my characters a level or two of commoner in addition to their adventurer level to represent what they were before becoming adventurers. This is where they'd pick up the not-always-useful adventurer skills like Profession (farming) and the like. I'll strictly tell them not to use these skillpoints for optimization, and I'm certain they'll listen to this because they're all (at least) fairly good friends of mine... Of course that doesn't mean I won't ask them what skills they bought to be sure. :P

My question is this: what sort of balance issues will this present? Before someone says it'll kill Toughness; Toughness already sucks. No one likes Toughness. :P

(Toughness: :weep: )

Also, I understand that commoners do more than farm and whatnot; if they have a good reason to put a skillpoint or two in a skill commonly used in adventuring (tumble for instance), then I'll let them take it.
toucanbuzz
12-07-07, 12:52 PM I'd probably allow them to take "Traits" rather than dole out free skill points and watch folks try and cleverly sneak them into useful skills. Even a 1-2 point shift is significant, and in this case, the party has done absolutely nothing to earn this bonus.

If you're inclined to give them extra points, make it a treasure (a unique collection of notes diagrammed by the legendary rogue Marvolo Fleetfoot that shows how he trained and worked to infiltrate Sultan Shazam's harem that the party finds being used by hobgoblins as toilet paper. Not all the notes can be salvaged, but the ones that can, when studied and applied for 30 days, give a person already trained in tumble +1 skill points to tumble). They earn it, it becomes something special, and it beats the normal treasure of a 500gp gem!
Master_Vega
12-07-07, 12:54 PM I understand what you are saying.

I forgot to add this: I don't plan on using the commoner level(s) to determine ECL, or if I do they will count as half levels.

Thanks for the idea. :P
Drohem
12-07-07, 12:57 PM Well, instead of restricting them to just Commoner, you may want to consider let them starting off in any of the other NPC classes; if you're determined to start them off in a non-player character class.

Recently, I created a character for my friend's new fantasy campaign. I wanted to play the son of a noble, and have the character be noble himself, so his first level was in Aristocrat. Of course, I multiclassed after 1st level.

Any of the other NPC classes would be better and more helpful for an adventurer.
Drohem
12-07-07, 01:04 PM Ah...I read the OP again.

Instead of handing out extra levels, I would start the campaign at 1st level and let them chose any of the NPC classes.

Then they could multiclass into a player character class at 2nd level.

At higher levels, the NPC classes are gimped for player, but at 1st level all classes are, relatively, on the same playing field.
Salla
12-07-07, 01:23 PM I've considered this, but I was going to allow retraining from the PHB2 so the PCs could eventually rid themselves of the NPC levels.
ppirilla
12-07-07, 02:00 PM I give my players six bonus skill points at first level, and tell them that they should take three ranks in a Profession skill, and three ranks in some other skill representintive of their pre-adventuring lives (making money in the previously selected profession).

The problem with giving your players the level of commoner is what would their ECL be? They get an extra feat, extra HP from more HD, a higher cap on skill points, and the extra skill points. On the other hand, they are a level or two behind on class abilities. Giving them two levels of commoner combined as level 1 might be the answer, but I'm not sure on that.
Drohem
12-07-07, 02:18 PM I give my players six bonus skill points at first level, and tell them that they should take three ranks in a Profession skill, and three ranks in some other skill representintive of their pre-adventuring lives (making money in the previously selected profession).

This is a good option as well. Just give the 1st level characters a bonus feat and/or bonus skill points.

Personally, I would consider one feat and four skill points as bonus at 1st level to represent life before an adventuring class.
Master_Vega
12-07-07, 02:30 PM This is a good option as well. Just give the 1st level characters a bonus feat and/or bonus skill points.

Personally, I would consider one feat and four skill points as bonus at 1st level to represent life before an adventuring class.

That sounds a lot like a D20Modern occupation... maybe I should just use something like that. (Gives up to three permanent class skills, one feat, and a wealth bonus.)
Tequila_Sunrise
12-07-07, 02:54 PM Honestly, I don't see the point of stuff like this. Why do we need classes and skills to determine how many radishes my character can hoe in a day? If a player writes "farmer", "scribe", "sailor" or whatever in their backstory, why not just assume that they can do a competent job of it when it comes up that one time during the campaign?
Drohem
12-07-07, 03:07 PM Honestly, I don't see the point of stuff like this. Why do we need classes and skills to determine how many radishes my character can hoe in a day? If a player writes "farmer", "scribe", "sailor" or whatever in their backstory, why not just assume that they can do a competent job of it when it comes up that one time during the campaign?

You're right. It's up to personal style and taste; some people just like another layer of detail for their characters.
Master_Vega
12-07-07, 03:11 PM Honestly, I don't see the point of stuff like this. Why do we need classes and skills to determine how many radishes my character can hoe in a day? If a player writes "farmer", "scribe", "sailor" or whatever in their backstory, why not just assume that they can do a competent job of it when it comes up that one time during the campaign?

It makes players decide on certain things, such as occupation, from the beginning. It also gives them a limit on what they could specialize in. I like to give synergy bonuses to players when they are rolling for something to do with their previous occupations, but previous occupations must be concrete or you end up with someone who had a past as a farmer in the beginning of the campaign, and then he somehow (IE: the player and GM forgot the original occupation) has a different previous occupation near the end.
Tequila_Sunrise
12-07-07, 03:46 PM It makes players decide on certain things, such as occupation, from the beginning. It also gives them a limit on what they could specialize in. I like to give synergy bonuses to players when they are rolling for something to do with their previous occupations, but previous occupations must be concrete or you end up with someone who had a past as a farmer in the beginning of the campaign, and then he somehow (IE: the player and GM forgot the original occupation) has a different previous occupation near the end.

Different strokes, I suppose. Personally if I had players who couldn't remember what their character's general profession was before becoming an adventurer, I'd either dump them and find players who were actually interested in roleplaying or just say "screw backstories, let's go on an endless series of dungeon crawls!"
boozerker
12-07-07, 04:05 PM Forget the levels and just give them 10 skill points to distribute among the following (max 3 each).

Knowledge: Homeland (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, and humanoids found in your home town/city)

Craft: Peasantwork items (crude wooden spoons, flimsy teapots, uneven doors, etc)

Profession: Errand runner (locate usable firewood, clean dishes well enough, wash down farm animals, cook "ok" porridge, etc)

Profession: Farm hand (You know how to do work at a farm, but not how to apply that knowledge for profit or hasty survival)

Perform: Not quite impressive (Off-tune whistling, basic and risk-free cartwheels, sing off-key...but usually know the words, quick-laugh or situational humor, etc)

Swim: doggy-paddle (stay afloat and move 1/4 speed in calm waters).

You could expand the list of skills for players to choose from and allot points to. The skills are only be useful in a calm environment (you are faced with no threats or distractions) that has remained calm for at least the past round. Otherwise, you get a -5 to the check.
zelf_gale
12-07-07, 06:13 PM Instead of doing either extra class levels (which mess up hit points, character levels, and a whole mess of other things) or giving extra skill points (which are a pain to track if you need to rebuild) instead give them one or two free skill focus feats or the +2 to two skill feats.

I've been in campaigns with both of the bad options, and they really did cause problems.
Goldenmaxter
12-07-07, 07:35 PM Using NPC classes for your PCs is a terrible idea. Don't do it or your characters will be underpowered noobs. Nobody uses profession anyways.
CaptainPicard
12-08-07, 12:45 AM I like this idea. Your PCs get some extra useless HD that will boost their starting HP totals. However, I would impose two rules on this:

1) Keep max skill ranks as only calculated by your PC class level.

2) Don't count the HD as actual HD.

You could also run into a problem if someone's backstory is that he's been helping his neighbor, a Wizard, with small errands and tasks since he was 10 until said Wizard took him on as a formal apprentice. It could be argued that he really wouldn't have any class but Wizard.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Master_Vega 12-07-07, 12:32 PM	I've made a similar thread to this before; here's hoping this one gets an answer. In an upcoming campaign, I'm contemplating giving my characters a level or two of commoner in addition to their adventurer level to represent what they were before becoming adventurers. This is where they'd pick up the not-always-useful adventurer skills like Profession (farming) and the like. I'll strictly tell them not to use these skillpoints for optimization, and I'm certain they'll listen to this because they're all (at least) fairly good friends of mine... Of course that doesn't mean I won't ask them what skills they bought to be sure. :P My question is this: what sort of balance issues will this present? Before someone says it'll kill Toughness; Toughness already sucks. No one likes Toughness. :P (Toughness: :weep: ) Also, I understand that commoners do more than farm and whatnot; if they have a good reason to put a skillpoint or two in a skill commonly used in adventuring (tumble for instance), then I'll let them take it.
toucanbuzz 12-07-07, 12:52 PM	I'd probably allow them to take "Traits" rather than dole out free skill points and watch folks try and cleverly sneak them into useful skills. Even a 1-2 point shift is significant, and in this case, the party has done absolutely nothing to earn this bonus. If you're inclined to give them extra points, make it a treasure (a unique collection of notes diagrammed by the legendary rogue Marvolo Fleetfoot that shows how he trained and worked to infiltrate Sultan Shazam's harem that the party finds being used by hobgoblins as toilet paper. Not all the notes can be salvaged, but the ones that can, when studied and applied for 30 days, give a person already trained in tumble +1 skill points to tumble). They earn it, it becomes something special, and it beats the normal treasure of a 500gp gem!
Master_Vega 12-07-07, 12:54 PM	I understand what you are saying. I forgot to add this: I don't plan on using the commoner level(s) to determine ECL, or if I do they will count as half levels. Thanks for the idea. :P
Drohem 12-07-07, 12:57 PM	Well, instead of restricting them to just Commoner, you may want to consider let them starting off in any of the other NPC classes; if you're determined to start them off in a non-player character class. Recently, I created a character for my friend's new fantasy campaign. I wanted to play the son of a noble, and have the character be noble himself, so his first level was in Aristocrat. Of course, I multiclassed after 1st level. Any of the other NPC classes would be better and more helpful for an adventurer.
Drohem 12-07-07, 01:04 PM	Ah...I read the OP again. Instead of handing out extra levels, I would start the campaign at 1st level and let them chose any of the NPC classes. Then they could multiclass into a player character class at 2nd level. At higher levels, the NPC classes are gimped for player, but at 1st level all classes are, relatively, on the same playing field.
Salla 12-07-07, 01:23 PM	I've considered this, but I was going to allow retraining from the PHB2 so the PCs could eventually rid themselves of the NPC levels.
ppirilla 12-07-07, 02:00 PM	I give my players six bonus skill points at first level, and tell them that they should take three ranks in a Profession skill, and three ranks in some other skill representintive of their pre-adventuring lives (making money in the previously selected profession). The problem with giving your players the level of commoner is what would their ECL be? They get an extra feat, extra HP from more HD, a higher cap on skill points, and the extra skill points. On the other hand, they are a level or two behind on class abilities. Giving them two levels of commoner combined as level 1 might be the answer, but I'm not sure on that.
Drohem 12-07-07, 02:18 PM	I give my players six bonus skill points at first level, and tell them that they should take three ranks in a Profession skill, and three ranks in some other skill representintive of their pre-adventuring lives (making money in the previously selected profession). This is a good option as well. Just give the 1st level characters a bonus feat and/or bonus skill points. Personally, I would consider one feat and four skill points as bonus at 1st level to represent life before an adventuring class.
Master_Vega 12-07-07, 02:30 PM	This is a good option as well. Just give the 1st level characters a bonus feat and/or bonus skill points. Personally, I would consider one feat and four skill points as bonus at 1st level to represent life before an adventuring class. That sounds a lot like a D20Modern occupation... maybe I should just use something like that. (Gives up to three permanent class skills, one feat, and a wealth bonus.)
Tequila_Sunrise 12-07-07, 02:54 PM	Honestly, I don't see the point of stuff like this. Why do we need classes and skills to determine how many radishes my character can hoe in a day? If a player writes "farmer", "scribe", "sailor" or whatever in their backstory, why not just assume that they can do a competent job of it when it comes up that one time during the campaign?
Drohem 12-07-07, 03:07 PM	Honestly, I don't see the point of stuff like this. Why do we need classes and skills to determine how many radishes my character can hoe in a day? If a player writes "farmer", "scribe", "sailor" or whatever in their backstory, why not just assume that they can do a competent job of it when it comes up that one time during the campaign? You're right. It's up to personal style and taste; some people just like another layer of detail for their characters.
Master_Vega 12-07-07, 03:11 PM	Honestly, I don't see the point of stuff like this. Why do we need classes and skills to determine how many radishes my character can hoe in a day? If a player writes "farmer", "scribe", "sailor" or whatever in their backstory, why not just assume that they can do a competent job of it when it comes up that one time during the campaign? It makes players decide on certain things, such as occupation, from the beginning. It also gives them a limit on what they could specialize in. I like to give synergy bonuses to players when they are rolling for something to do with their previous occupations, but previous occupations must be concrete or you end up with someone who had a past as a farmer in the beginning of the campaign, and then he somehow (IE: the player and GM forgot the original occupation) has a different previous occupation near the end.
Tequila_Sunrise 12-07-07, 03:46 PM	It makes players decide on certain things, such as occupation, from the beginning. It also gives them a limit on what they could specialize in. I like to give synergy bonuses to players when they are rolling for something to do with their previous occupations, but previous occupations must be concrete or you end up with someone who had a past as a farmer in the beginning of the campaign, and then he somehow (IE: the player and GM forgot the original occupation) has a different previous occupation near the end. Different strokes, I suppose. Personally if I had players who couldn't remember what their character's general profession was before becoming an adventurer, I'd either dump them and find players who were actually interested in roleplaying or just say "screw backstories, let's go on an endless series of dungeon crawls!"
boozerker 12-07-07, 04:05 PM	Forget the levels and just give them 10 skill points to distribute among the following (max 3 each). Knowledge: Homeland (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, and humanoids found in your home town/city) Craft: Peasantwork items (crude wooden spoons, flimsy teapots, uneven doors, etc) Profession: Errand runner (locate usable firewood, clean dishes well enough, wash down farm animals, cook "ok" porridge, etc) Profession: Farm hand (You know how to do work at a farm, but not how to apply that knowledge for profit or hasty survival) Perform: Not quite impressive (Off-tune whistling, basic and risk-free cartwheels, sing off-key...but usually know the words, quick-laugh or situational humor, etc) Swim: doggy-paddle (stay afloat and move 1/4 speed in calm waters). You could expand the list of skills for players to choose from and allot points to. The skills are only be useful in a calm environment (you are faced with no threats or distractions) that has remained calm for at least the past round. Otherwise, you get a -5 to the check.
zelf_gale 12-07-07, 06:13 PM	Instead of doing either extra class levels (which mess up hit points, character levels, and a whole mess of other things) or giving extra skill points (which are a pain to track if you need to rebuild) instead give them one or two free skill focus feats or the +2 to two skill feats. I've been in campaigns with both of the bad options, and they really did cause problems.
Goldenmaxter 12-07-07, 07:35 PM	Using NPC classes for your PCs is a terrible idea. Don't do it or your characters will be underpowered noobs. Nobody uses profession anyways.
CaptainPicard 12-08-07, 12:45 AM	I like this idea. Your PCs get some extra useless HD that will boost their starting HP totals. However, I would impose two rules on this: 1) Keep max skill ranks as only calculated by your PC class level. 2) Don't count the HD as actual HD. You could also run into a problem if someone's backstory is that he's been helping his neighbor, a Wizard, with small errands and tasks since he was 10 until said Wizard took him on as a formal apprentice. It could be argued that he really wouldn't have any class but Wizard.