Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DragonRg6 03-29-04, 11:02 AM	A problem universally suffered by DMs, I imagine: Cheating on stat rolls. I HATE this. It buggers up the campaign when a pc has a strength of 18 when playing a Half-orc Barbarian. Of course, cheating of that magnatude is easy to spot a mile off... What pisses me off more is the way people "Modify" scores... Like a 14 becoming a 16... Or when players can't accept a low score, or, worst of all, the way you just know that a certain player's character is always going to have a reasonably high score on that player's pet statistic. What makes me complain so is this: Recently, one of the players in my group decided to run his own campaign, and that he would play it on alternate weekends to mine (we play fortnightly). He allowed everyone to start with one score at 18, and another at 16... This player/DM was, in actual fact, probably just trying to make me look mean as a DM - I make all players roll their scores in front of me and make them stick to them - But something has struck me. When a player rolls all 10s and 11s, they are utterly average. Not the type to make a hero out of at all, just utterly average. One of my PCs once played a guy with two 3s and four 10s at first level, and he was hero material - his endeavours were mighty struggles against impossible odds - but what do I do when someone rolls all between 10s and 12s? I've been accused of unfairness for allowing people to reroll when they get really poor results (like three 10s, one 5 and two 3s) because I won't let anyone else reroll... Even if they get straight 10s. And the question that pisses me off the most, when a player has their heart set on a character, what do you do when they inevitably roll the wrong stats for it? I normally insist on rolling stats before making decisions on classes... Sorry, I needed to moan somewhere.
Hogre 03-29-04, 11:09 AM	This will very quickly descend into an argument over point buy being better than rolling. Point buy is better by the way. You can set how weak to super powerful you want PCs, by setting the number of points, and then you don't have to worry about watching them while they do it.
Zherog 03-29-04, 11:11 AM	Try allowing everybody to roll their stats twice, and they may pick whichever set of stats they like better. They can't mix and match numbers from the different sets, though - two sets, pick one. Alternatively, you could switch to a point buy method. This allows a level playing field for everybody; if you want an 18 in something you can have it, but at the cost of your other stats. The downside is that it removes the dice - and some people like rolling dice.
Seeker95 03-29-04, 11:38 AM	I use a set array. 1. Stat array: 10 - 12 - 12 - 14 - 16 - 18 2. Arrange as desired. 3. Add racial modifiers. 4. Exchange 2 for 1 (take 2 from any stat to increase another by 1) I play a very heroic campaign. Sure, every PC has at least one 18, and with racial mods, will often have a 20. But every PC has the exact same foundation upon which to build. And advancements are balanced by liabilities -- self-imposed! This approach has created some rather unique (and welcome) characters. The current party has a halfling monk, a half-orc wizard (with 20 Int and 12 Strength!), a human cleric with lots of common sense and very little in the way of book smarts, and a gnome rogue with the charm of the supermodel and the brains of the physicist (the child of the two characters in the GE D&D Commercial (http://www.ge.com/stories/en/13085.html))
aka Jimmy 03-29-04, 03:20 PM	The only sure way to both prevent cheating and ensure that every player has a "fair break" is to either use point buy or a set array (like Seeker does). When you roll for stats it is inevitable that some characters will be better than others. And if you play with people that are willing to cheat, having them roll stats is just begging for them to do so.
Makaris 03-29-04, 03:26 PM	Point buy, duh. If you don't like point buy, though, it states in the DM's guide that if a players total stat bonuses are lower than +1, that the player may reroll. According to the Dm's guide, you cannot have a character with a 10, 10, 10, 8, 5, 5 stat line-up.
His Majesty 03-29-04, 03:30 PM	I can hardly believe that you are using 4d6, drop the lowest. Such low stats are very rare that way. To stop the players' complaints about their low stats, and to avoid the accusations of unfairness whenever you allow a reroll, rule that a certain modifier total is too low, and allows rerolling. The PHB suggests that you reroll and stat set that has no stat above 13 (not including 13), or that has a total modifier of 0 or less. Stick to that, and you won't get any attacks from the players (I think). I use the organic creatures system for stat-generating, BTW. 4d6 arrange by order, swap any two twice, reroll one stat once (choose the higher of the two).
Lady Ishtar 03-29-04, 04:01 PM	one rule that i use is to allow players to reroll stats if their overall modifiers are less than +5, and that comes from the fact that all sample NPCs in the DMG use the elite stats of 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8, total modifiers adding up to +5 if after the stats are rolled, but before any racial adjustements, if a player has no stats above 16 they can replace their lowest stat with an 18. this method works well for high powered games
klyre 03-29-04, 04:11 PM	Originally posted by DragonRg6 A problem universally suffered by DMs, I imagine: Cheating on stat rolls. I HATE this. It buggers up the campaign when a pc has a strength of 18 when playing a Half-orc Barbarian. Of course, cheating of that magnatude is easy to spot a mile off... A Half-orc Barbarian having a Str of 18 (20 after racial mods) is cheating? Have you never seen someone roll an 18 naturally?
burning_blood 03-29-04, 04:27 PM	Our group doesn't have any cheating problems. Our DM did get fed up with people complaining about their low stats and constantly asking to re-roll them, though. Here's what we do now: Making a knew character? You have a choice. Option 1: point-buy, plain and simple. Option 2: Roll 4d6 (drop lowest die) 7 times (drop lowest number). Arrange in any order you like. If you choose this option, what you roll is what you get, absolutely no re-rolling. Well, maybe if your highest stat is less than 13 or your total bonus is zero or less, just maybe you'll be allowed to re-roll your stats -- once. So far everyone's been content with that.
Dresdor 03-29-04, 05:04 PM	I have solved this in a simple way. You do a default array. Everyone gets the same "rolls" to put into their character's abilities. \ For a low/moderate campaign I give them scores of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8 For a higher powered campaign I give them 17, 15, 13, 12, 10, and 8 This does two things...first it eliminates the gripes of "He's got better stats than me" and makes everything fair. Secondly, it challenges players by forcing them to dump on one ability with the 8. That way, you don't have players who are literally good at every aspect of their character....with an 18 Str and nothing else under a 14. Doesn't it make sense that first level characters might have one or two "good" abilities, but still have some bad aspect (low CHA is the usual one). Plus having to deal with an 8 is a challenge to even experienced players. I have a player who is used to rolls around the 16 range, and complained a lot about her "low" abilities. It is very rewarding (for me) to see her dealing with her low CHA and WIS while slowly learning she isn't invincible like her old characters.
Willie the Duck 03-29-04, 08:03 PM	Originally posted by DragonRg6 Recently, one of the players in my group decided to run his own campaign, and that he would play it on alternate weekends to mine (we play fortnightly). He allowed everyone to start with one score at 18, and another at 16... This player/DM was, in actual fact, probably just trying to make me look mean as a DM Yeah, 'cause it's always about you. He couldn't possibly simply be less experienced or have less of a backbone, he must be doing it to screw you over.:bored:
John Paul Stoddard 03-29-04, 08:29 PM	Instead of PowerGamers play with "Role Players" We Roll in Front of The Dm We Roll 4d6 drop the Lowest Roll Stats in Order of Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha We live with what we get, or we don't play
Tehril 03-30-04, 12:35 AM	The easy way out? Point buy. My preference? Rolling... What has my campaign evolved into? Point buy :( Do what you feel is best... to me, point buy creates alot of cookie cutter PC's... but it does eliminate the chance to cheat ;) Take their scores and add them up!
frisbeet 03-30-04, 01:11 AM	1 in 216 NPCs has an 18 Str. Thats 1/((1/6)^3). That's why players like having an 18. Is it too much to ask. One out of Only 216. Think about that. You've probably bumped into 216 people today, on the highway or wherever. PCs are supposed to be slightly exceptional. 4d6, drop lowest, it turns out that 1 in 62 (that's 1296/21) will have an 18 Str. That's just one score. So many more will have at least one 18 among all their stats. This is not a bell curve where it's 10 standard deviations away from the mean to get an 18. So a character rolled, was given, or cheated his way to an 18. Big deal. My advice: if you've paid a lot of money for your D&D stuff, don't play a crappy character if that's not going to make you happy. You are not the problem. Dr. Phil is the problem. Out.
Korhal IV 03-30-04, 01:25 AM	With 4d6-drop-lowest, it's actually supposed to be 3% of PCs with an 18 before racial ability mods. So says Hero's Handbook, at any rate. Actually, I'm not sure if they mean 3 out of a 100 heroes, or 3 out of 100 rolls. 3 out of 100 rolls means that with the average 4-character party you have 24 rolls, or 72% chance of someone having an 18. That doesn't seem too high to me, but perhaps it's because I'm rather certain my players *do* cheat. For 3d6 it is indeed 1 in 216.
Drindin 03-30-04, 01:36 AM	I hate point buying. All it does for me, is make characters seem so... inorganic. I like the organic, realistic feeling a rolled character has for this reason: Roleplaying. I'm currently playing a nearly-average barbarian/cleric. He had one bad stat, that was his intelligence, which is a nine. His strength is only twelve, as is his constitution. I love playing him because he has great roleplaying attatched him. He's not the brightest bulb in the bunch, so he does plenty of stuff without thinking it through. My conclusion: If you're not happy without at least one eighteen in your stats, then you're way to much of a Roll-player, and not enough of a role-player. I alow players to roll one more time if their highest stat is only a 12, but only if they want, if they don't... I give them a quarter and pat them on the back.
Mr.Waesel 03-30-04, 03:44 AM	You can point buy organic characters if that's your thing.
Null Boundry 03-30-04, 06:21 AM	Originally posted by klyre A Half-orc Barbarian having a Str of 18 (20 after racial mods) is cheating? Have you never seen someone roll an 18 naturally? It makes me wonder how fragile a campaign is when such a stat can destroy it.
ZooL 03-30-04, 08:23 AM	I think the problem with rolling stats is, soon you begin (as a dm) to allow them to roll more and more. When you roll 7 times and can pick the best your chances for gettin good scores is really good. Imho I think that you should only roll once and then distrubute (spelled wrong?) your scores as you like.
farghal 03-30-04, 08:34 AM	in my group i let every body roll for there score's. If the score's are really bad or 4 or more are below 12 i let them rerol (i they want if the other 2 are above 16 they will problably be okay with it :D) . I have'nt heard 1 single complain. i do have they fact that the amount of xp is divided evenly (as long as they are part of a fight of course) this way it is'nt about how much damage you do but to work as much as a team to win the game. I could really recommend it to other DM's if there party is trying to beat each other over the amount of XP they have.
farghal 03-30-04, 08:34 AM	in my group i let every body roll for there score's. If the score's are really bad or 4 or more are below 12 i let them rerol (i they want if the other 2 are above 16 they will problably be okay with it :D) . I have'nt heard 1 single complain. i do have they fact that the amount of xp is divided evenly (as long as they are part of a fight of course) this way it is'nt about how much damage you do but to work as much as a team to win the game. I could really recommend it to other DM's if there party is trying to beat each other over the amount of XP they have.
Sensei Gith 03-30-04, 08:50 AM	Point Buy. Problem solved. Those stats do seem low, though. An 18 is not a "munchkin stat" or anything like that. If an 18 unbalances your campaign, and you expect your PC's to have scores that low, and you consider it rollplaying to let the players assign scores, then even 4d6 might be too high for you. Just make sure you adjust monsters' CR's to compensate.
Thailfi 03-30-04, 09:16 AM	Good God you would hate our campaign. An 18 is unbalanced? We started new characters on Saturday. We had three players and everyone got two characters. We use 4d6 drop the lowest and arrange to taste. We rolled in front of the DM and other players. We play a 1e/2e hybrid campaign. After racial adjustments there were seven 18s amoung the six characters, multiple 17s and 16s as well. I am mystified by how people can fail to make campaign adjustments for exceptionally good or poor scores. Somehow people get insulted by other people's high scores. "Your character has two 18s? You cheated and you don't know how to roleplay." If you are so mistrustful of your players, make them role their charaters in front of you. If they get good scores adjust your encounters to compensate. It isn't hard. Anybody that tells you that good scores make for bad roleplayers is a complete moron.
frisbeet 03-30-04, 09:47 AM	Originally posted by Korhal IV With 4d6-drop-lowest, it's actually supposed to be 3% of PCs with an 18 before racial ability mods. So says Hero's Handbook, at any rate. Actually, I'm not sure if they mean 3 out of a 100 heroes, or 3 out of 100 rolls. 3 out of 100 rolls means that with the average 4-character party you have 24 rolls, or 72% chance of someone having an 18. That doesn't seem too high to me, but perhaps it's because I'm rather certain my players *do* cheat. For 3d6 it is indeed 1 in 216. Don't know what the Hero Book is doing, but here is some irrefutable math. Here's the 4d6 drop lowest distribution, as has been posted several times in the last week or so. The # of ways column lists how many unique ways I can roll the outcome. The P value is the outcome # of ways/ total # of ways. oc # ways P 18 21 0.016203704 17 54 0.041666667 16 94 0.072530864 15 131 0.101080247 14 160 0.12345679 13 172 0.132716049 12 167 0.128858025 11 148 0.114197531 10 122 0.094135802 9 91 0.070216049 8 62 0.047839506 7 38 0.029320988 6 21 0.016203704 5 10 0.007716049 4 4 0.00308642 3 1 0.000771605 How did I get 21 for an outcome of 18? I counted them. Here's how: count die 1 die 2 die 3 die 4 sum drop lowest 1 6 6 6 6 18 2 6 6 6 5 18 3 6 6 6 4 18 4 6 6 6 3 18 5 6 6 6 2 18 6 6 6 6 1 18 7 6 6 5 6 18 8 6 6 4 6 18 9 6 6 3 6 18 10 6 6 2 6 18 11 6 6 1 6 18 12 6 5 6 6 18 13 6 4 6 6 18 14 6 3 6 6 18 15 6 2 6 6 18 16 6 1 6 6 18 17 5 6 6 6 18 18 4 6 6 6 18 19 3 6 6 6 18 20 2 6 6 6 18 21 1 6 6 6 18 Through some clever counting techniques one can arrive at the remaining distribution without too much trouble. Anyway. The Probability (P) that an adventurer has at least one 18 among 6 stats rolling this way, with no rerolls, is = 1 - P(having no 18s among 6 stats). P(having no 18s among 6 stats) = P(not rolling an 18 once)^6; P(not rolling an 18 once)=sum(# ways not including 18)/total # ways That's 1275/1296. Incidently, it's a good thing the total # ways = 1296, because that's 6^4, the theoretical # of unique outcomes rolling 4 d6s. So P(having no 18s among 6 stats) = (1275/1296)^6 Then P(at least one 18) = 1 - (1275/1296)^6 The frequency of this happening in a population of adventurers is 1/P(at least one 18) 1/(1 - (1275/1296)^6) = 10.71032096 So nearly 1 in 11 adventurers will have at least one 18. Which really means, among a large population of adventurers, on average 1 in 11 has at least an 18. It doesn't mean that one adventurer among any set of 11 adventurers will have an 18. It's not that uncommon. Of course, NPCs sample from the 3d6 distribution, so it's a little less common : 1 in about 36 will on average have at least one 18. 18s are not a big deal, and they're really fun to roleplay, I've found. My conclusion: If you're not happy without at least one eighteen in your stats, then you're way to much of a Roll-player, and not enough of a role-player. Absurd.
burning_blood 03-30-04, 11:36 AM	Originally posted by Drindin My conclusion: If you're not happy without at least one eighteen in your stats, then you're way to much of a Roll-player, and not enough of a role-player.Originally posted by frisbeet Absurd. By your own math, just over 90% of adventurers will not have any 18's. So it's totally unreasonable for a player to say, "What?! I don't have a single 18? What a rip! This character sucks. C'mon, DM, you gotta let me have at least one 18 or there's not even any point in me playing!"
frisbeet 03-30-04, 11:57 AM	touche' I'm not one to worry about it, either way...that's all.
Dresdor 03-30-04, 08:08 PM	So here are our arguements... Point Buy: Pro: Balanced Con: "Inorganic Characters" Xd6 Rolling: Pro: random Characters Con: mathematics is evil....I mean cheating. Standard Array: Pro: Plethora of scores for organic characters CON: Didn't see any So?
Drindin 03-31-04, 12:45 PM	Originally posted by burning_blood By your own math, just over 90% of adventurers will not have any 18's. So it's totally unreasonable for a player to say, "What?! I don't have a single 18? What a rip! This character sucks. C'mon, DM, you gotta let me have at least one 18 or there's not even any point in me playing!" Kudos mes compodre! I was just going to point that out, but you already did it for me! As dresdor has pointed out, the standard 4d6 array is obviously the only one we've decided is cool...
Wulfgar 03-31-04, 01:26 PM	Originally posted by Thailfi Good God you would hate our campaign. An 18 is unbalanced? We started new characters on Saturday. We had three players and everyone got two characters. We use 4d6 drop the lowest and arrange to taste. We rolled in front of the DM and other players. We play a 1e/2e hybrid campaign. After racial adjustments there were seven 18s amoung the six characters, multiple 17s and 16s as well. I am mystified by how people can fail to make campaign adjustments for exceptionally good or poor scores. Somehow people get insulted by other people's high scores. "Your character has two 18s? You cheated and you don't know how to roleplay." If you are so mistrustful of your players, make them role their charaters in front of you. If they get good scores adjust your encounters to compensate. It isn't hard. Anybody that tells you that good scores make for bad roleplayers is a complete moron. W3rd. I've played for over two decades and never understood that mentality. To me, stats are just units that allow you to interact mechanically with the game-system. My group has characters with multiple scores over 15, with 18s hardly being uncommon; it's never been a problem to my DMing, because the people in our group play their characters' personalities, not their 'to-hit' bonuses. Besides, they need the stats. And even a 25 doesn't guarantee success in everything, or even anything. Trust me on that; my group turns into a bunch of HHGTTG types, all self-interested and unmotivated, prone to discombobulating an adventure at the drop of a Heart Of Gold, usually they just barely survive, beat, tattered, exhausted (physically and emotionally...and so do the PCs :D ) with magical, monetary and technological goodies that they often don't understand and cheerfully destroy through their own ignorance. Jesus. And any pissant whiner who's overly-concerned with what another player's PC's stats are and how they were derived should 1) be worrying about what bad feelings that they're engendering in-game with that player ("Huh? Oh, Sir Loud-Mouth of Jerk is dying? Gee, I'd like to help, but I'm saving my healing spells for someone who doesn't accuse me of cheating.") and 2) be more concerned about what might be behind Door #6 than with what Elfie Oakley has under her armor if he wants to live... :D
Roxlimn 03-31-04, 01:56 PM	I make it a point to watch all my players roll stats even moreso than anything else because stats affect the rest of the game experience for the player. I also make it a point to explain my reasons for watching. Since I watch all PC stats rolled and I allow no pre-made PCs into my campaigns, no one ever gets accused of cheating stats. Not within my earshot, anyway. In any case, I've found that most players have a very set image of what they want to play before they play it. Forcing them to adhere to what is essentially a random role, is, to me, both unfair and unfun. Still, many people like rolling dice for god knows what reason. For those people, I offer a compromise: Roll 3d6 6 times and assign stats as desired. After stats are assigned, one time offer to use point buy instead. Not surprisingly, a whole lot of people end up using the point buy stats anyway. In the interest of fairness, I only give 25 points (vs. 28 points to those who chose point buy right out) to those who tried their luck at the dice - an explicitly stated 3 point cost to try their luck, so to speak.
Dareon 03-31-04, 03:32 PM	One 18 is not cheating, even in a 3d6. Every character at the table with one 18 is probably not cheating. Two 18s is suspicious. Three 18s, all placed into prime requisites in a non-arranged system, is quite probably cheating. Six 18s, a d12/2d6 weapon, a backstory that includes a close relationship with a major deity, and an antisocial RP personality is so obviously munchkining you'd have to be blind to miss it. While it may be true that weak stats make for strong roleplayers, The opposite (strong stats, weak RPers) is not necessarily true. Case in point: Cob, half-orc barbarian. 4d6-drop-lowest 7 times, drop lowest, 20 Str, 10 Int after racial adjustments. When the party was searching for a specific person, Cob climbed the tallest building in the area and shouted his name. Later, while interrogating a prisoner, after his player whispered to our druid's player, Cob picked up the prisoner's dead comrade and shook it at him. Whereupon the druid smacked Cob and told him not to play with his food. While I'm not sure that adequately demonstrates the point I was trying to make, needless to say we had great fun with Cob. Personally I feel that a greater chance of high stats lends to the heroic feel, like your characters are somewhat head and shoulders above the common crowd. It also gives DMs a little wiggle room in case they make an encounter too strong. However, there is something to be said for the lower-powered campaigns some run. If I sat down for a game and my DM told us to roll 3d6 in order and start with a level of commoner, I'd give it a fair shot. The feeling of being a hero that's made, not born. Of struggling up from the very pits of poverty with nothing but a torch, a bedroll, the rags on your back, and your trusty oak staff. Those are very different feelings than knowing you're special and taking it for granted, and I'm not the one to say which is better. Anyway, I've prattled on long enough.
Wulfgar 03-31-04, 05:14 PM	One of my PCs once played a guy with two 3s and four 10s at first level, and he was hero material - his endeavours were mighty struggles against impossible odds I was just re-reading this; that's not a hero, that's a pig-farmer sorely in need of directons back to the sty.
Vanigo 03-31-04, 05:29 PM	Originally posted by Wulfgar I was just re-reading this; that's not a hero, that's a pig-farmer sorely in need of directons back to the sty. Well, that rather depends on the campaign. If it was almost entirely devoid of combat, he could do okay. Same goes if the player is extraordinarly good at unconventional combat tactics. Otherwise, I'd kinda have to agree with you, mostly because heros aren't known for getting knocked into the negatives in the first round of every fight and they certantly aren't known for doing a great deal of nothing when they're concious. Mind you, I have considerable respect for people who stick it out with a character like that, but that doesn't mean I could do it, and it certantly doesn't mean I want to try.
EvilDuck 03-31-04, 05:45 PM	I use this system: Okay, your numbers are 18 16 14 12 10 8. Assign 'em however you want. We really don't care about inorganicity, as long as everyone's got even stats.
Willie the Duck 03-31-04, 06:42 PM	Originally posted by John Paul Stoddard Instead of PowerGamers play with "Role Players" We Roll in Front of The Dm We Roll 4d6 drop the Lowest Roll Stats in Order of Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha We live with what we get, or we don't play contrary to popular opinion, low stats do not naturally lead to "Role Players". Nor does it stop people from being PowerGamers. I get rolling in front of the DM, but what does disallowing arranging to taste do for the game? Make the guy that hates wizards play one (or a fighter with a 16 int and 8 str)? How is that helpful?
Majic86 04-04-04, 12:53 PM	I've always used the 4d6 way. I have allways had people create there characters in front of me, but I don't act like a warden wating for them to try to cheat. Instead I like to have the character creation be part of the fun it really brings out the players personality. I guess I might let a person reroll if they got a negative overall bonus before racial mod, or maybe even if it was 0. I do allow players to place there ability scores where they want after rolling, it only seems fair you don't want wizards that can't cast any spells becuase of low Int, and other things like that. I've gotten interesting mixes, a elven wizard with an int of 17 and wis of 6, Half-orc fighter with a str of 19, int of 9 and a chr of 15. Role playing was fun with them. Your the DM I guess its your choice though.
Qlay 04-04-04, 02:15 PM	Originally posted by Dresdor So here are our arguements... Point Buy: Pro: Balanced Con: "Inorganic Characters" Xd6 Rolling: Pro: random Characters Con: mathematics is evil....I mean cheating. Standard Array: Pro: Plethora of scores for organic characters CON: Didn't see any So? Standard array is actually Standard Point buy, with 25 points.
reanjr 04-04-04, 02:24 PM	What I usually do is is just assign a number that they can distribute over their scores ranging from 3 to 18 (before racial mods). Half the scores have to be odd (this means the number I give them has to be odd). So I would give them 75 points and they could build the following character: Str 18 Dex 15 Con 17 Int 9 Wis 6 Cha 10 This is an effective and fun-to-play barbarian. He can be magically controlled easier than a gerbil though. It allows the players to have as many good scores they want unlike the point buy. And as long as you make sure characters use all of their scores (Cha seems to be the player favorite to drop except for Paladin, Sorcerer, and Bard) and role-play bad ones, players won't abuse the system.
EinZweiDrei 04-04-04, 02:33 PM	I find that with point buy, people only pick even numbers, in order to stat-:censored::censored::censored::censored: :censored:. Thus, its a good house rule to force the player to pick three odd-numbered stats or something to that effect.
EinZweiDrei 04-04-04, 02:33 PM	Posted twice.
Sir_Jack_Sparrow 04-04-04, 02:47 PM	I havent read this whole thread, so excuse me if this has aleady been sgested, but what i plan to do next time i tun a campaign is this, have everyone roll 4d6 7 times, drop the lowest, then look at who has the highest stats, figure out what kind of a pot buy would be needed for those stats, then give everyone a point buy at that level, this results in a high powered group, but then i like that, if you dont liek that then just tone down what i have said, make it 4d6 6 times, or even 3d6. that way there is still a random factor in the character creation, and everyone is on the same level playing field.
Oberoni 04-04-04, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by John Paul Stoddard Instead of PowerGamers play with "Role Players" We Roll in Front of The Dm We Roll 4d6 drop the Lowest Roll Stats in Order of Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha We live with what we get, or we don't play What, you guys roll 4d6, drop the lowest? I thought you were roleplayers! 3d6 in order! What's up with all this overpowered 4d6 stuff?
The Final Dream 04-04-04, 03:29 PM	Originally posted by Oberoni What, you guys roll 4d6, drop the lowest? I thought you were roleplayers! 3d6 in order! What's up with all this overpowered 4d6 stuff? You use dice?! ;) On topic, There are three ways you can make rolling 4d6 more palatable for players and DMs alike. 1) Roll in front of the DM. This is easiest way to stop blatant cheating. It also provides proof that a player isn't cheating when he rolls 3 17s and no score below 13. 2) Have a safety net. The 3.0 PHB suggests that all players be allowed to reroll if they don't roll any scores above 12 or the sum of all modifiers is +0 or less. I prefer allowing rerolls if a player doesn't roll at least one 15 or if the sum of all rolls is less than +6. Tweak the numbers as you see fit. 3) Allow point buy if the player doesn't like his first rolls. I'd use 25 points, but anything from 25 to 32 is also good.
Darkness_Incarnate 04-04-04, 04:07 PM	A Half-orc Barbarian having a Str of 18 (20 after racial mods) is cheating? Have you never seen someone roll an 18 naturally? :rofl: I once had a guy in my group who rolled in front of me and managed to get 5 18's. I made him roll again only to have him get 6 18's. Sad to say he was really new to the game and thinking he was untouchable was the first to die. BUT 6 18's! My god, and back to back with 5 18's! Where did that come from? And it's scary because he rolled in front of me with my regular dice! Luckily though since this day he has never rolled a statistic over 15. :rofl:
Mr.Waesel 04-04-04, 04:23 PM	assuming 3d6 those odds are 6^-33...
sembrin1 04-04-04, 04:26 PM	Well, if you make your players play with multiple stats of 3 and 4, you ARE mean =P My GM has a simple rule, and it has always works out well for us. Your total stat bonuses when added up must AT LEAST equal a +1. Sure you can end up with bad scores, but it also means you end up with some high ones as well.
MageofMyth 04-04-04, 10:23 PM	I once watched a player roll two 18’s and the rest 17, in front on myself and the DM. In the next campaign I watched another player roll nothing above an 8, twice in a row. It’s called random for a reason. To combat this and make my games more enjoyable I made up my own method. Since I normally play with 4 players I hand each player a d6 and I hold a box above their head level. They each throw their die into the box. (I sometimes re-roll 1’s) then I write down the score and they repeat. They are allowed to arrange however they want too, and then add racial modifiers. This allows the game to be more balanced and keeps everyone happy. In fact my players like it so much that the ones that DM have started using it in their games.
Dragonteuthis 04-05-04, 12:52 AM	I, too have issues with cheating players in my game. This one player consistently rolled stats when I wasn't looking (often days in advance), and asked to play the character. One time he copied his character from another DM's campaign onto a new character sheet to play in my campaign, and claimed he had thrown away the old character sheet...when I found the old character sheet, I found his weapons had gotten much more magical, his Strength had gone up by 2, and he had about 20,000 more gold...and he claimed it had been an exact copy. So, needless to say, I have to institute the point buy system. Not because the PCs are too powerful, not because they overbalance my campaign, but because I want everyone to start out on the same playing field. And you see, that's the true heart of stat equalization. Any experienced DM worth his salt can compensate for good stats with an ease that's almost laughable*. It's not about campaign balance, it's about the poor sorcerer who rolled a 15 for his high stat not being completely outshone by the player who rolled two 18s for his elven wizard, or the 18 Str cleric hitting more often and doing more damage than the otherwise decent build fighter with a 15 Str. I've seen such situations before, and even if the players don't confront each other about it, you can see it happening. As the campaign progresses, the lesser-stat character is less and less happy because his moments to shine get fewer and fewer...after all, how can you be proud of your character when another party member can do everything better? That's why I enforce point buy. It still leads to extremely strong and effective characters. Next time I start a campaign, though, I think I'll have the players roll, but use the 4d6, drop lowest, in order of rolled method...It'll produce those unusual characters. Naturally, I'll have to watch closely, but that's okay. *If you're not an experienced DM, use the following method: Add hit points equal to three, four, or five times the monster's hit dice, depending on stats and monster, and give the monster a +2 to attack rolls, damage rolls saving throws, skill checks, save DCs, and anything else that might apply.
Sphyre 04-05-04, 05:54 AM	Originally posted by frisbeet Don't know what the Hero Book is doing, but here is some irrefutable math. Here's the 4d6 drop lowest distribution, as has been posted several times in the last week or so. The # of ways column lists how many unique ways I can roll the outcome. The P value is the outcome # of ways/ total # of ways. oc # ways P 18 21 0.016203704 17 54 0.041666667 16 94 0.072530864 15 131 0.101080247 14 160 0.12345679 13 172 0.132716049 12 167 0.128858025 11 148 0.114197531 10 122 0.094135802 9 91 0.070216049 8 62 0.047839506 7 38 0.029320988 6 21 0.016203704 5 10 0.007716049 4 4 0.00308642 3 1 0.000771605 How did I get 21 for an outcome of 18? I counted them. Here's how: count die 1 die 2 die 3 die 4 sum drop lowest 1 6 6 6 6 18 2 6 6 6 5 18 3 6 6 6 4 18 4 6 6 6 3 18 5 6 6 6 2 18 6 6 6 6 1 18 7 6 6 5 6 18 8 6 6 4 6 18 9 6 6 3 6 18 10 6 6 2 6 18 11 6 6 1 6 18 12 6 5 6 6 18 13 6 4 6 6 18 14 6 3 6 6 18 15 6 2 6 6 18 16 6 1 6 6 18 17 5 6 6 6 18 18 4 6 6 6 18 19 3 6 6 6 18 20 2 6 6 6 18 21 1 6 6 6 18 Through some clever counting techniques one can arrive at the remaining distribution without too much trouble. Anyway. The Probability (P) that an adventurer has at least one 18 among 6 stats rolling this way, with no rerolls, is = 1 - P(having no 18s among 6 stats). P(having no 18s among 6 stats) = P(not rolling an 18 once)^6; P(not rolling an 18 once)=sum(# ways not including 18)/total # ways That's 1275/1296. Incidently, it's a good thing the total # ways = 1296, because that's 6^4, the theoretical # of unique outcomes rolling 4 d6s. So P(having no 18s among 6 stats) = (1275/1296)^6 Then P(at least one 18) = 1 - (1275/1296)^6 The frequency of this happening in a population of adventurers is 1/P(at least one 18) 1/(1 - (1275/1296)^6) = 10.71032096 So nearly 1 in 11 adventurers will have at least one 18. Which really means, among a large population of adventurers, on average 1 in 11 has at least an 18. It doesn't mean that one adventurer among any set of 11 adventurers will have an 18. It's not that uncommon. Of course, NPCs sample from the 3d6 distribution, so it's a little less common : 1 in about 36 will on average have at least one 18. 18s are not a big deal, and they're really fun to roleplay, I've found. Absurd. WOOT! i love statistics, last quarter i wouldn't have had any clue on how you derived that lol.
NinjaHedge 04-05-04, 06:17 AM	I've never understood how restricting stats more allows you to roleplay better? I mean, wouldn't more freedom with your stats allow you to get the stats that most closely match the personality you want for your character? Here's a hint for you "roleplayers", playing a weak character does not mean you are roleplaying well. You've just taken a different munchkiny route. Instead of trying to prove you're better then everyone else by playing an uber character, you're trying to prove your better then everyone else by playing a weak one. "Look at me, I'm so awsome, I have 2 18s." "Look at me, I'm so awsome, I have 2 3s" There are two possiblities. Either high stats matter in your campaign, or they don't. If high stats don't matter, then why not let players just pick whatever stats they want? If high stats do matter in your campain, then a player is justified in complaining if he rolls crappy stats. He's not going to be able to have as much fun. Neither of these possibilities allow for logic along the lines of "you shouldn't complain just because you didn't get an 18" unless everyone was deprived of an 18.
Crossover-Chronicler 04-05-04, 12:41 PM	Originally posted by DragonRg6 A problem universally suffered by DMs, I imagine: Cheating on stat rolls. I HATE this.Well, there is always the issue of trust...It buggers up the campaign when a pc has a strength of 18 when playing a Half-orc Barbarian.:uh-huh: How exactly does a single extraordinary stat in a non-spellcasting class bugger up the campaign?Of course, cheating of that magnatude is easy to spot a mile off... What pisses me off more is the way people "Modify" scores... Like a 14 becoming a 16... Or when players can't accept a low score, or, worst of all, the way you just know that a certain player's character is always going to have a reasonably high score on that player's pet statistic.I fail to see the problem. Even the PHB looks down on universally low-statted (or even "average") characters. And if a player gets a reasonably high score, reason dictates (given that people make characters they like) that it would go into the player's "pet stat." What makes me complain so is this: Recently, one of the players in my group decided to run his own campaign, and that he would play it on alternate weekends to mine (we play fortnightly). He allowed everyone to start with one score at 18, and another at 16...I see no problem with that; he knows what he likes as a player, and attempts to allow that to aother players. It may up the power level of the setting as a whole, but a competent DM can handle that increase.This player/DM was, in actual fact, probably just trying to make me look mean as a DMWhy would you think that? Simpoly because said DM has chosen to be more permissive doesn't mean that he's trying to make you look bad -- merely that his DMing style is different than your own. Do you have any reason to believe that htis is personal?I make all players roll their scores in front of me and make them stick to them - But something has struck me. When a player rolls all 10s and 11s, they are utterly average. Not the type to make a hero out of at all, just utterly average. One of my PCs once played a guy with two 3s and four 10s at first level, and he was hero material - his endeavours were mighty struggles against impossible odds -and 9 times out of 10, remarkably unrewarding to play if those stats are actually reflected in the character.but what do I do when someone rolls all between 10s and 12s? I've been accused of unfairness for allowing people to reroll when they get really poor results (like three 10s, one 5 and two 3s) because I won't let anyone else reroll... Even if they get straight 10s. Well, straight 10s is still rerollable by the 3e standard, so I can see that to a degree; I ue point buy/default array to avoid such quarrels.And the question that pisses me off the most, when a player has their heart set on a character, what do you do when they inevitably roll the wrong stats for it? I normally insist on rolling stats before making decisions on classes...That one's tricky. Some character types are more rewarding to some players than others. THough generally, any basic character type is workable with only slightly above-"average" stats.
Beamup 04-05-04, 05:20 PM	Originally posted by DragonRg6 It buggers up the campaign when a pc has a strength of 18 when playing a Half-orc Barbarian. This sort of attitude is, I think, a relic of 2e that just doesn't carry over. In 3e, - The difference between, say, a 16 and an 18 is no bigger than the difference between 14 and 16, or even 10 and 12. - Level up stat bonuses and the ubiquity of stat-boosting items make rolled stats relatively less important. While in 2e, the difference between 17 and 18 was generally bigger than the difference between 6 and 14. And a 25 was a god-like stat, while in 3e 25 is easily reachable by well-below-Epic characters. 17s and 18s just don't hold anywhere near the importance in 3e that they did in 2e. DMs and players alike should realize this.
KevlarKnight 04-05-04, 05:53 PM	This is what I did…. 4d6 drop lowest 6 times arrange as you see fit rolled in front of me (the DM) Then we did three things 1) Had a pig wrestle (pig starts with +20 grapple check and gets -2 each time he is grappled two opposed checks in a row win) 2) Drinking game (lots out there) 3) Archery competition (three different ranges) The winner in each event was allowed to re-roll any one ability score and take the higher roll.
trapspringer 04-05-04, 08:01 PM	I may be mistaken, but if your highest ability score is less than thirteen, you can re-roll any way. Lagit rule form the dmg, standard rolling rules. I prefer the point-buy system. You are also allowed to re-roll you lowest roll any way.
Twisted Puppy 04-05-04, 08:51 PM	Just to toss in my 2 cp here, I'll side with Willi the Duck : just because you have a low power game doesn't make you a good roleplayer. Good roleplaying should actually have very little to do with die rolls or the stats on a sheet of paper. It has more to do with the situations the DM puts the party and how the character reacts to them. I like heroic games, with larger than life characters, and that's what I run. That doesn't mean my players can't roleplay: I'd match three, maybe four of my group members up against anybody for roleplaying ability.
Thomar_of_Uointer 04-05-04, 09:19 PM	This is easy to fix. IMC: Before racial and class adjustments, everyone's ability scores MUST add up to a certain number. For a low-powered campaign, it's 60 (10 in each stat). For a high-powered campaign, it's 90 (15 in each stat). You cannot swap stats, and cannot modify them unless it contributes towards the sum of ##. Therefore, you can only reduce stats if they're over ##. No ability score can be over 18 or under 3 before racial adjustments. It's ballancing, and almost always raises their stats if you make the sum 90, and they're stubborn and stupid if they don't comply.
FNFAL Ninja 04-05-04, 09:45 PM	Originally posted by Twisted Puppy ...just because you have a low power game doesn't make you a good roleplayer. Good roleplaying should actually have very little to do with die rolls or the stats on a sheet of paper. It has more to do with the situations the DM puts the party and how the character reacts to them. Thank Lathander! Someone else who understands... I justl don't understand the concept of willingly crippling a character and calling it "role-playing." Now I like a high-power game, and min/maxing a character is not a bad thing (against min/maxed NPC's it's a matter of planning and survival...) but I really don't get some people's ideas that having all good stats (IE stats almost all over 10) makes a person a powergamer. Especially if a character has an 18 in a stat. But how can a person willingly cripple their character and call it roleplaying. Whether it's taking very low stats (13 or less) or making choices for character levels that do not provide some sort of advantage for taking that level, it's still not building an effective character from a mechanics standpoint. Roleplaying is a matter of making the choices you see your character making in response to the situations put in front of your character. Some people accuse powergamers of playing their sheets. I say that the willful cripples are doing the same thing and calling elitism. My apologies to whomever may find this inflammatory, but this really has been bothering me.
pokemaniacbill 04-05-04, 10:23 PM	FNFAL Ninja, you have put into words that which I could not. *claps* However, I'm tempted to think everyone cheated on a dice roll once. Come on, ONCE. I know I have: I changed a seventeen to an eighteen so I could have a max dex for an archer when I was just starting out. Of course (I did, however, roll away from the DM, so it wasn't wrath), I was ripped into five pieces. DM: As you open the door... *rolls a d6* Your head lands to the south... *rolls again* Your torso stays where it is... *rolls twice* Your left arm hits the druid in the face for one point of subdual damage, and the right arm flies to the east. Your legs land somewhere behind the (Epic level monster I don't recognize). You may roll a d10 to see how long in seconds it is before you die. I thought that was funny.
loklok1138 04-06-04, 10:51 AM	TWO 3s IS THE SAME FREAKING ODDS AS TWO EIGHTEENS. Unless you're using 4d6, then it's harder to get a 3 than an 18. What the heck? You hate the cheating of a single 18, but laud the two 3s? It makes no sense.
Sereno 04-06-04, 12:32 PM	Good ROLE-playing is a mind-set that has nothing to do with stats or equipment. It's all in your approach to the game. A good role-player approaches every situation from the point-of-view of their character, and interacts with everything the DM throws at them as if they *were* that character. They try to keep meta-gaming to a minimum. It doesn't matter if their character is a min/max'd half-orc barbarian with 24 Str, 6 Int and +5 flaming greatsword if they STAY IN CHARACTER and the character has a believable personality. And by "believable" I mean more then sullen silence until combat and then, "Krusk smash!"
frisbeet 04-06-04, 03:44 PM	Originally posted by loklok1138 TWO 3s IS THE SAME FREAKING ODDS AS TWO EIGHTEENS. Unless you're using 4d6, then it's harder to get a 3 than an 18. What the heck? You hate the cheating of a single 18, but laud the two 3s? It makes no sense. :ayyyy!: Well put!
grapedog 04-06-04, 07:38 PM	i play a lot of other systems than D&D, namely the world of darkness Vampire and Werewolf campaigns and they much have the same "point buy" type of system where you have so many points, spend them accordingly. I think that is the more fair and easy system to get going. There is also going to be no cheating and all the characters can feel that each have similar value to the rest of them. It takes out the Roll Play apsect, and lets people make characters quicker and easier and get into the game. Some people like to roll their stats, and thats cool...others like to buy and that is also cool. I think you should go with which ever sytem your players feel more comfortable with or think they will enjoy more. The one thing you must do though is enforce the fact that stats ARE NOT EVERYTHING.
Holinyx 04-07-04, 02:04 AM	well as far as stats go...i think of beginning stats as i read the Dragonslance novels. Caramon wanted to become a warrior...so did he wait until he was 24 then start working out? hell no...he was totally buffed when he was a mid teen so i'd have to give that guy at least a 17 str. Raist...did he start reading and preparing for the Tests when he was 30 years old? hell no, he learned to read and already doing spells by mid teens...so you gonna give Raist a 11 int ? hell no...he gets a 17 or higher. My point is...your stats should pretty much coinside with your background and also how you want to roleplay your character. the only die i've ever seen rolled for stats is a d4 and thats for 10 +d4 for your "common" stats. 10 + d8 is the way to go for regular stats. matching whatever numbers you get to whatever stats you want, effectivly building your character. sorry but i just can't imagine rolling for stats any other way. i've played with dozens of people at many different events and cons and at least 80% said they liked that idea. hope this idea helps in some way.
frisbeet 04-07-04, 09:33 AM	Originally posted by Holinyx well as far as stats go...i think of beginning stats as i read the Dragonslance novels. Caramon wanted to become a warrior...so did he wait until he was 24 then start working out? hell no...he was totally buffed when he was a mid teen so i'd have to give that guy at least a 17 str. Raist...did he start reading and preparing for the Tests when he was 30 years old? hell no, he learned to read and already doing spells by mid teens...so you gonna give Raist a 11 int ? hell no...he gets a 17 or higher. My point is...your stats should pretty much coinside with your background and also how you want to roleplay your character. the only die i've ever seen rolled for stats is a d4 and thats for 10 +d4 for your "common" stats. 10 + d8 is the way to go for regular stats. matching whatever numbers you get to whatever stats you want, effectivly building your character. sorry but i just can't imagine rolling for stats any other way. i've played with dozens of people at many different events and cons and at least 80% said they liked that idea. hope this idea helps in some way. Which begs the question, why roll at all? This is a genuine question. 10+d8 still leaves one with a 12.5% chance of having an 11. If envision playing Raistlin, give yourself, err, have the DM give you, an 17 or 18. As I've stated, this in-and-of-itself, doesn't separate you from even a crowd of commoners, because 1 in 36 will have at least one 18, though not necessarily 18 int. What separates you will be the risks and rewards of adventuring. In short, leveling. As has been stated, a character is more than the sum of his/her attributes. If that's so, why make such a big deal about them, either way? Here's my 2 cp method: everybody gets one 18. Roll 3d6 for the other 5 stats. Or, if I've been sufficiently bribed, 4d6 for the other 5 stats. Then, when they're all rolled out, forget about them. Play the game.
Steelwill 04-07-04, 11:07 AM	First, what other DM's do is their business, and if your player's don't like something you do based on someone else's DM'ing style, then you should discuss it with them and see if some mutually acceptable/reasonable compromise can be reached, or else they need to play with the other DM. With regards to the question of determining what to do if you feel player's are starting with stats that are too low, the PHB 3.5 has a good guideline, on pg 8, section titled REROLLING, the text is as follows: "If your scores are too low, you may scrap them and reroll all six scores again. Your scores are considered too low if the sum of your modifiers (before adjustments because of race) is 0 or lower, or if your highest score is 13 or lower." Just my 2 cents, hope this helps.
starblind 04-07-04, 11:27 AM	Normaly I do the 4d6 arrage to taste but in my current game I went with 10+2d4 becouse I plan to be even nastier than normal:devil: I usualy give more xp for roleplaying than encounters anyway and my players all know this. They should learn to play smart or play dead no mater what their stats any thing else is just personal prefrence.:cool: :cool:
loklok1138 04-08-04, 09:24 AM	I just noticed that the original poster said the character had a Strength score of 18 as a half-orc. Doesn't it stand to reason, then that the player rolled a 16, and applied the racial modifier to get the 18. So we're not talking about the highest end of the spectrum. We're talking two fives, a six and a two on 4d6. That's not hard. Since he hasn't responded to the posts yet to give us more information about how he runs things, here are some theories : he is playing 2nd edition; he is rolling 3d6; heis rolling 4d6 drop the highest (sounds most likely to me; he is a troll.
JoyandSerenity 04-16-04, 03:27 PM	There are rules saying that if your character lacks a mod of +2 or a score of greater than 13, then they get to reroll.
Shadowmagyk 04-16-04, 03:56 PM	I did not read all of these posts, but my clique uses the roll 4d6, drop the lowest die, and place anywhere you wish rule. We have never had any problems. We get low scores quite a bit, but I have rolled two 18s with the stingiest DM among us. I made a Dwarven fighter with STR and CON as my 18s. My wife has rolled three 18s (she had to show me up), and used a ROG with DEX, INT, and CHA as the 18s. Just because players have 18s does not mean that they are cheating. It just means that they have good die rolls. I have had some problems with players cheating, but it has never been with the stats. It has always been skill points, or picking up the die before I have a chance to see it and claiming that they made succeded in their roll when they really had not.
Nyvinyd 04-17-04, 03:04 AM	If I have any problems with characters not liking/accepting their rolls, then I will sit them down and watch them roll 3D6 6 times. If they don't like it, I will allow them to scrap the entire sheet, and do it again, up to 2 times. If they don't like the 2nd set, I'll let em do it again, but the 3rd time, they HAVE to stick with it. Alternatively, I'll let em do 4D6 drop the lowest, then reroll 1 number 1 time, if they want to.
Eldren 04-17-04, 02:32 PM	I'm honestly pretty lenient when it comes to players and their stat rolls. I use the 5d6 drop the two lowest system, and I allow them to roll three sets of stats. They can then pick the best set (not make six stats from the six best scores of the three sets), and use that for their PC. I've found that it results in slightly higher scores (I think the average low score is somewhere around 13, maybe 12), but nothing severely overpowering, as they're still dealing with chance (they have to take the best set, so they could wind up taking something that had four really good scores and two pretty sucky ones). You couldn't pay me enough money to DM a campaign where players had to use point-buy.
system102 04-18-04, 06:40 AM	I agree with Hogre. We had the same problem. Not with low rolls but with high ones. Players getting three +3mods, two +2's and one +1. Someting like a str16, dex17, con17, wis 14, int 15, cha 10. These characters were highly overpowered so we switched to point buy. All problems solved:D