"Classic" Campaign Building [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Classic" Campaign Building [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Andrew
09-04-06, 09:50 PM I've been finding myself interested in emphasizing the "classic" feel in a campaign, similar to what Andy Collins described in the latest Sibling Rivalry (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060829a) column, or the part cheesy, part heroic setting of older edition modules. Vile necromancers in overstated gloomy citadels, warrens full of line-drawing orcs, and fighters that actually wear helmets (helmets that often have wings on them, for some reason).

From what I've seen, there is a lot of overlap with the above and a "darn kids, get off my lawn!" dislike for the modern game (such as the plurality of new options and the fact that in a game with choice as an inherent foundation, optimization is unavoidable and inevitable). I only had limited experience with the game under 2nd edition, however, so there's only so much I know of about the more basic themes that I can draw upon.

I would like to come up with how to build a campaign that encourages that kind of feel without going all grouchy and banning material and options haphazardly. The simplest advice, of course, is "Okay, so do it!" Still, suggestions or ideas on how to help this work would be appreciated. So far, the ideas I have are to: Focus on the low-to-mid levels
Emphasize modules and dungeon crawls
Remove "minor" magic items from random treasure rolls (est avg value: 1000 gp), and add a medium magic item roll (est avg value: 10,000 gp) halfway through every ten missed minor magic rolls to loosely keep with wealth-by-level charts, but to lessen the plurality of +1 McLongswords and other standardized items. I know, don't screw the players with DR.What am I missing?
Man in the Funny Hat
09-05-06, 12:27 AM From what I've seen, there is a lot of overlap with the above and a "darn kids, get off my lawn!" dislike for the modern game (such as the plurality of new options and the fact that in a game with choice as an inherent foundation, optimization is unavoidable and inevitable).I'd say that the problem is less that DM's are unhappy with the plethora of new options in and of themselves, but that players seem to become more enomored of the potential coolness of their character "builds" than looking forward to what may actually happen in the game which really doesn't have anything to do ANY build. All things being equal a character that is strictly core-rules, single-classed should be as much fun to play as any character that is overstuffed with all the latest feats and prestige classes. That's a little simplistic of course but largely true.
I would like to come up with how to build a campaign that encourages that kind of feel without going all grouchy and banning material and options haphazardly.A good place to start? Rather than calling it "arbitrary banning of materials," maybe you should refer to it as "selective elimination of unneeded and excessive material to retain a more dynamic core of rules instead of an overloaded core."

Old School definitely emphasizes more dungeon crawl type of adventures (though that doesn't mean they should be long and tedious crawls...) and less of the talky, negotiation and diplomacy mission stuff.
Remove "minor" magic items from random treasure rolls (est avg value: 1000 gp), and add a medium magic item roll (est avg value: 10,000 gp) halfway through every ten missed minor magic rolls to loosely keep with wealth-by-level charts, but to lessen the plurality of +1 McLongswords and other standardized items. I know, don't screw the players with DR.What am I missing?
Old School is not about Screw The Players. Keep the standard treasure and equipment values. Low to mid-levels is definitely better than high levels. Most important though - at least in MY opinion - is to be sure that everyone is less concerned about RULES than about roleplaying and fun. One of the hallmarks of D&D in Ye Dayes Of Yore was that because the rules were not elegant, well-crafted, and polished we had to make up a LOT of what we did. Some of it was the DM making rulings on the fly, players just going with the flow, and some of it was the DM crafting his own rules in advance to handle what he/she felt were inadequate parts of the rules that they felt really needed to be covered.

Don't be afraid to include things that break the rules a bit or even ignore them - just don't do so simply to "screw the players". The reverse is also good - if the players want to do something unorthodox then figure out a way to let them try without just abdicating all control.
stembolt
09-05-06, 12:49 AM OK you have a fundamental problem here, you are trying to define yourself by what you don’t want rather than really what you want. Also you are neglecting what your players might want.

Unless your players want to do big dungeon crawls, they are not fun. So make sure with your players that they really want to do dungeon crawls.

Remove "minor" magic items from random treasure rolls (est avg value: 1000 gp), and add a medium magic item roll (est avg value: 10,000 gp) halfway through every ten missed minor magic rolls to loosely keep with wealth-by-level charts, but to lessen the plurality of +1 McLongswords and other standardized items. I know, don't screw the players with DR.

Do not mess with treasure until you really understand what it means. Also it is much (much) simpler to just do treasure the usual way.

My sense is that you do not like beguilers and knights and such. Which is fine, but often not shared by your PCs. So here is a technique you might try suggest that you are going to do a really cool morally black and white heroic campaign. And that you want the characters to really exemplify this. So the fighter is a fighter in the classic mold, however the player of the fighter still has a huge range of options to choose from. You want to recruit the players into helping you make this campaign, rather than forcing them to do what you want.

Next you really need to focus on what you do want to do. Who are the bad guys, what is the setting and so on.
Andrew
09-05-06, 01:57 AM This is not for an imminent campaign; what I'm trying to come up with is one of several possible options that I can have up on blocks to offer up when the time comes to start fresh, so don't worry about railroaded players.

I don't know where this is coming off as definition through the negative.

If you could look at my above implementation for "more magical" magic items and let me know how this is "screwing the players," I'd appreciate it, as this is a theory I've rolled around independent of this specific campaign idea. If the DMG average numbers are to be trusted, average party wealth should stay roughly even, though I am making the wild assumption that price indicates value. I know there is the quick-and-dirty boost you can get by splitting your wealth up between lots of small items (+1 amulet of natural armor, +1 ring of protection, +1 armor, +1 shield), but I haven't come across that kind of specialized equipment assortment when dealing with random treasure. I don't see how it's that much simpler to just keep a line of tick marks in adventure notes for how many minor magic roll equivalents the party has earned than it is to keep track of the treasure you hand out period. What are you seeing about it that I'm not?

I haven't got a thing against knights, beguilers, or warlocks from a flavor perspective (though I wouldn't choose those specific examples for my personal PC in someone else's game because they don't match my personal style preference). The above are examples of those things that a random banning of source material would eliminate unjustly. I think more damage is done to the retro theme by the numerically "good" and "lousy" core armor selection or unorthodox weapons like spiked gauntlets and exotic double weapons than you have to worry about from including favored souls or warmages. What I'm looking for is how to encourage and communicate the style, not the crunch - if I favored 2nd ed.'s mechanics, the book in my hand wouldn't say "v.3.5" on it.
Lord Gwydion
09-05-06, 03:01 AM The problem your group may face with the way you're thinking of doing the magic items is that the rules for what constitutes a "challenge" are designed with the idea that the PCs have:

a: a fair number of minor magic items even at lower levels (scaling to a fair number of medium items at mid levels, and a fair number of major items at high levels, plus an item or two of above the range they'll normally be getting)
b: the ability to buy and sell magic items easily to better customize
c: the PCs will actually need to use these items to overcome challenges.

If you don't give out scrolls and potions and low level L1 spell wands and instead wait around a while and give out a nice ring or decent weapon from the medium item lists, your PCs will have to go through lots of challenges without the aid of those potions, scrolls, wands, minor miscelaneous items, etc. Sure, once they get that item they'll finally be at their "wealth per level" guideline, but until they do, they're behind it. It may not become a problem, but you should keep it in mind when designing challenges (and not just DR, spell-like abilities or other randomness can be just as bad).

I understand the desire to make magic items more special in the game. However, giving out fewer but more powerful items IMO isn't the best way to go. I'm currently running an online PbP game (which means it's going slow, but it's going) where I hope to make magic items special, and also hope to get the old-school feel (so far, not bad but not so great either...I'm working on it).

To keep magic items special, I'll allow them to purchase minor disposable items like potions or scrolls from the local NPC spellcasters (although they might have to wait for the order to be filled), but not permanent items or more powerful disposable items. When I give out permanent items (even the trusty dagger +1) or more powerful charged items, I'll give each a description, name, and a bit of a back-story. I'll give out a fair share of randomly rolled items, but I'll also make sure that the party gets items they will actually use and benefit them as well, so they don't want to just sell them off to buy some stat-booster.

As for getting the atmosphere, I've created a fairly cliche town on the edge of the wilderness with the typical lots of ruins nearby, and all the core races in the area (and no monsters-as-PCs). Of course, my players have free reign to make their characters how they want, so the game loses a bit of the oldschool flavor with their choices for character, but that doesn't bother me too much. I've given them a classic game setup to play in, I'll let them play it out as they like.
terrainmonkey
09-05-06, 08:39 AM i think what you are looking for here is a Castles and Crusades campaign. it has the old school flavor with a modification of the 3.x system. there are 11 classes, no prestige classes, no feats, and the skill system is easier. it is a rules lite system that focuses on story, and not on a rigid set of rules that need be argued. the DM has the power to run the game, instead of being constrained by the players forcing every rule on him. magic items are few and far between, and there is no "wealth by level guidelines". also, no magic item feats, so you have to go through the DM to make a magic item.

ahhh... old school. where heroes were Heroes, Dungeons were deadly, and every room had a damn good reason to roll for initiative. the good old days indeed.
Andrew
09-06-06, 03:42 AM I can see your point that the party may need the generic value of minor magic items for funding early on. Still, with the exception of Cure potions and free spells for wizards, 70% of minor magic treasure is potions and scrolls of very limited use, and they sit at that point where they're so expensive and so short-term use that I have difficulty seeing who would make them. For the cost of a 1st-level Cure Light Wounds potion, you could hire 250 1st-level mercenaries for a day. I'd like to find a way to rely on as little "disposable" magic as possible.

Established by the average values, 10 minor magic item rolls = 1 medium magic item roll. So, where between 1 and 10 should the party earn the medium magic item? 5 is apparently too late. How many potion and scroll drops should be missed before finding an item worth 10,000 gp on average?

Thanks in general for the assistance. I'd like to find ways to encourage the old cliche flavor and roles rather than strongarm them on the campaign if you can think of them.
Lord Gwydion
09-06-06, 04:18 AM It's hard to say, really. It depends on the sorts of challenges you're throwing out. If you stick to fairly "mundane" creatures, with few magical (especially elemental) attacks or poisons, and with ACs that the PCs can fairly easily beat, plus make sure they have easy access to safe places to rest when they need to recharge spells/use per day abilities, you can avoid a lot of the need for minor magic items like healing potions, scrolls of magic weapon, elemental resistance items, etc.

A lot of the non-healing low level magic items are designed to give you that +1 bonus to AC, to hit, to a saving throw, or what not. If the PCs can manage the challenges you throw at them without those +1 bonuses (or if they can actually use their spells for it rather than devoting them to healing/blasting), that may help delay when you should start giving out the medium level magic items.

Eliminating Prestige Classes is likely a good idea for maintaining the old-school flavor to an extent (although the concept did first evolve out of 1E with the Bard, and in OD&D with the Paladin/Avenger/Knight, and Druid).

Make your NPCs fulfill the old cliche roles if the players don't want their characters to. Have a (friendly?) rival adventuring group made up of a straight up sword and board fighter (with a winged helmet), a white-bearded wizard (in a pointy hat), a shifty thief (in a hooded cloak), a cleric that only uses blunt weapons (also in a winged helmet?), and an elven fighter-mage (Bard might be a good single class to reflect the old OD&D Elf class...and allow him to wear the winged helmet while spellcasting!).

Bring back Bargle. Or Baron Black Eagle von Hendricks. Or Warduke. Or Venger. Using a classic villain that you loved to hate 20 years ago might help bring back part of that classic feel. Running conversions of old modules is also a plus.

And don't worry about "who would make them" when choosing magic items for treasure. No one ever asked who made the daggers +1 and helms of telepathy and scrolls of floating disk back in the old days. They were made by someone, that someone is likely now dead, and some monster has it now.

That's about all I can think of for now.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Andrew 09-04-06, 09:50 PM	I've been finding myself interested in emphasizing the "classic" feel in a campaign, similar to what Andy Collins described in the latest Sibling Rivalry (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20060829a) column, or the part cheesy, part heroic setting of older edition modules. Vile necromancers in overstated gloomy citadels, warrens full of line-drawing orcs, and fighters that actually wear helmets (helmets that often have wings on them, for some reason). From what I've seen, there is a lot of overlap with the above and a "darn kids, get off my lawn!" dislike for the modern game (such as the plurality of new options and the fact that in a game with choice as an inherent foundation, optimization is unavoidable and inevitable). I only had limited experience with the game under 2nd edition, however, so there's only so much I know of about the more basic themes that I can draw upon. I would like to come up with how to build a campaign that encourages that kind of feel without going all grouchy and banning material and options haphazardly. The simplest advice, of course, is "Okay, so do it!" Still, suggestions or ideas on how to help this work would be appreciated. So far, the ideas I have are to: Focus on the low-to-mid levels Emphasize modules and dungeon crawls Remove "minor" magic items from random treasure rolls (est avg value: 1000 gp), and add a medium magic item roll (est avg value: 10,000 gp) halfway through every ten missed minor magic rolls to loosely keep with wealth-by-level charts, but to lessen the plurality of +1 McLongswords and other standardized items. I know, don't screw the players with DR.What am I missing?
Man in the Funny Hat 09-05-06, 12:27 AM	From what I've seen, there is a lot of overlap with the above and a "darn kids, get off my lawn!" dislike for the modern game (such as the plurality of new options and the fact that in a game with choice as an inherent foundation, optimization is unavoidable and inevitable).I'd say that the problem is less that DM's are unhappy with the plethora of new options in and of themselves, but that players seem to become more enomored of the potential coolness of their character "builds" than looking forward to what may actually happen in the game which really doesn't have anything to do ANY build. All things being equal a character that is strictly core-rules, single-classed should be as much fun to play as any character that is overstuffed with all the latest feats and prestige classes. That's a little simplistic of course but largely true. I would like to come up with how to build a campaign that encourages that kind of feel without going all grouchy and banning material and options haphazardly.A good place to start? Rather than calling it "arbitrary banning of materials," maybe you should refer to it as "selective elimination of unneeded and excessive material to retain a more dynamic core of rules instead of an overloaded core." Old School definitely emphasizes more dungeon crawl type of adventures (though that doesn't mean they should be long and tedious crawls...) and less of the talky, negotiation and diplomacy mission stuff. Remove "minor" magic items from random treasure rolls (est avg value: 1000 gp), and add a medium magic item roll (est avg value: 10,000 gp) halfway through every ten missed minor magic rolls to loosely keep with wealth-by-level charts, but to lessen the plurality of +1 McLongswords and other standardized items. I know, don't screw the players with DR.What am I missing? Old School is not about Screw The Players. Keep the standard treasure and equipment values. Low to mid-levels is definitely better than high levels. Most important though - at least in MY opinion - is to be sure that everyone is less concerned about RULES than about roleplaying and fun. One of the hallmarks of D&D in Ye Dayes Of Yore was that because the rules were not elegant, well-crafted, and polished we had to make up a LOT of what we did. Some of it was the DM making rulings on the fly, players just going with the flow, and some of it was the DM crafting his own rules in advance to handle what he/she felt were inadequate parts of the rules that they felt really needed to be covered. Don't be afraid to include things that break the rules a bit or even ignore them - just don't do so simply to "screw the players". The reverse is also good - if the players want to do something unorthodox then figure out a way to let them try without just abdicating all control.
stembolt 09-05-06, 12:49 AM	OK you have a fundamental problem here, you are trying to define yourself by what you don’t want rather than really what you want. Also you are neglecting what your players might want. Unless your players want to do big dungeon crawls, they are not fun. So make sure with your players that they really want to do dungeon crawls. Remove "minor" magic items from random treasure rolls (est avg value: 1000 gp), and add a medium magic item roll (est avg value: 10,000 gp) halfway through every ten missed minor magic rolls to loosely keep with wealth-by-level charts, but to lessen the plurality of +1 McLongswords and other standardized items. I know, don't screw the players with DR. Do not mess with treasure until you really understand what it means. Also it is much (much) simpler to just do treasure the usual way. My sense is that you do not like beguilers and knights and such. Which is fine, but often not shared by your PCs. So here is a technique you might try suggest that you are going to do a really cool morally black and white heroic campaign. And that you want the characters to really exemplify this. So the fighter is a fighter in the classic mold, however the player of the fighter still has a huge range of options to choose from. You want to recruit the players into helping you make this campaign, rather than forcing them to do what you want. Next you really need to focus on what you do want to do. Who are the bad guys, what is the setting and so on.
Andrew 09-05-06, 01:57 AM	This is not for an imminent campaign; what I'm trying to come up with is one of several possible options that I can have up on blocks to offer up when the time comes to start fresh, so don't worry about railroaded players. I don't know where this is coming off as definition through the negative. If you could look at my above implementation for "more magical" magic items and let me know how this is "screwing the players," I'd appreciate it, as this is a theory I've rolled around independent of this specific campaign idea. If the DMG average numbers are to be trusted, average party wealth should stay roughly even, though I am making the wild assumption that price indicates value. I know there is the quick-and-dirty boost you can get by splitting your wealth up between lots of small items (+1 amulet of natural armor, +1 ring of protection, +1 armor, +1 shield), but I haven't come across that kind of specialized equipment assortment when dealing with random treasure. I don't see how it's that much simpler to just keep a line of tick marks in adventure notes for how many minor magic roll equivalents the party has earned than it is to keep track of the treasure you hand out period. What are you seeing about it that I'm not? I haven't got a thing against knights, beguilers, or warlocks from a flavor perspective (though I wouldn't choose those specific examples for my personal PC in someone else's game because they don't match my personal style preference). The above are examples of those things that a random banning of source material would eliminate unjustly. I think more damage is done to the retro theme by the numerically "good" and "lousy" core armor selection or unorthodox weapons like spiked gauntlets and exotic double weapons than you have to worry about from including favored souls or warmages. What I'm looking for is how to encourage and communicate the style, not the crunch - if I favored 2nd ed.'s mechanics, the book in my hand wouldn't say "v.3.5" on it.
Lord Gwydion 09-05-06, 03:01 AM	The problem your group may face with the way you're thinking of doing the magic items is that the rules for what constitutes a "challenge" are designed with the idea that the PCs have: a: a fair number of minor magic items even at lower levels (scaling to a fair number of medium items at mid levels, and a fair number of major items at high levels, plus an item or two of above the range they'll normally be getting) b: the ability to buy and sell magic items easily to better customize c: the PCs will actually need to use these items to overcome challenges. If you don't give out scrolls and potions and low level L1 spell wands and instead wait around a while and give out a nice ring or decent weapon from the medium item lists, your PCs will have to go through lots of challenges without the aid of those potions, scrolls, wands, minor miscelaneous items, etc. Sure, once they get that item they'll finally be at their "wealth per level" guideline, but until they do, they're behind it. It may not become a problem, but you should keep it in mind when designing challenges (and not just DR, spell-like abilities or other randomness can be just as bad). I understand the desire to make magic items more special in the game. However, giving out fewer but more powerful items IMO isn't the best way to go. I'm currently running an online PbP game (which means it's going slow, but it's going) where I hope to make magic items special, and also hope to get the old-school feel (so far, not bad but not so great either...I'm working on it). To keep magic items special, I'll allow them to purchase minor disposable items like potions or scrolls from the local NPC spellcasters (although they might have to wait for the order to be filled), but not permanent items or more powerful disposable items. When I give out permanent items (even the trusty dagger +1) or more powerful charged items, I'll give each a description, name, and a bit of a back-story. I'll give out a fair share of randomly rolled items, but I'll also make sure that the party gets items they will actually use and benefit them as well, so they don't want to just sell them off to buy some stat-booster. As for getting the atmosphere, I've created a fairly cliche town on the edge of the wilderness with the typical lots of ruins nearby, and all the core races in the area (and no monsters-as-PCs). Of course, my players have free reign to make their characters how they want, so the game loses a bit of the oldschool flavor with their choices for character, but that doesn't bother me too much. I've given them a classic game setup to play in, I'll let them play it out as they like.
terrainmonkey 09-05-06, 08:39 AM	i think what you are looking for here is a Castles and Crusades campaign. it has the old school flavor with a modification of the 3.x system. there are 11 classes, no prestige classes, no feats, and the skill system is easier. it is a rules lite system that focuses on story, and not on a rigid set of rules that need be argued. the DM has the power to run the game, instead of being constrained by the players forcing every rule on him. magic items are few and far between, and there is no "wealth by level guidelines". also, no magic item feats, so you have to go through the DM to make a magic item. ahhh... old school. where heroes were Heroes, Dungeons were deadly, and every room had a damn good reason to roll for initiative. the good old days indeed.
Andrew 09-06-06, 03:42 AM	I can see your point that the party may need the generic value of minor magic items for funding early on. Still, with the exception of Cure potions and free spells for wizards, 70% of minor magic treasure is potions and scrolls of very limited use, and they sit at that point where they're so expensive and so short-term use that I have difficulty seeing who would make them. For the cost of a 1st-level Cure Light Wounds potion, you could hire 250 1st-level mercenaries for a day. I'd like to find a way to rely on as little "disposable" magic as possible. Established by the average values, 10 minor magic item rolls = 1 medium magic item roll. So, where between 1 and 10 should the party earn the medium magic item? 5 is apparently too late. How many potion and scroll drops should be missed before finding an item worth 10,000 gp on average? Thanks in general for the assistance. I'd like to find ways to encourage the old cliche flavor and roles rather than strongarm them on the campaign if you can think of them.
Lord Gwydion 09-06-06, 04:18 AM	It's hard to say, really. It depends on the sorts of challenges you're throwing out. If you stick to fairly "mundane" creatures, with few magical (especially elemental) attacks or poisons, and with ACs that the PCs can fairly easily beat, plus make sure they have easy access to safe places to rest when they need to recharge spells/use per day abilities, you can avoid a lot of the need for minor magic items like healing potions, scrolls of magic weapon, elemental resistance items, etc. A lot of the non-healing low level magic items are designed to give you that +1 bonus to AC, to hit, to a saving throw, or what not. If the PCs can manage the challenges you throw at them without those +1 bonuses (or if they can actually use their spells for it rather than devoting them to healing/blasting), that may help delay when you should start giving out the medium level magic items. Eliminating Prestige Classes is likely a good idea for maintaining the old-school flavor to an extent (although the concept did first evolve out of 1E with the Bard, and in OD&D with the Paladin/Avenger/Knight, and Druid). Make your NPCs fulfill the old cliche roles if the players don't want their characters to. Have a (friendly?) rival adventuring group made up of a straight up sword and board fighter (with a winged helmet), a white-bearded wizard (in a pointy hat), a shifty thief (in a hooded cloak), a cleric that only uses blunt weapons (also in a winged helmet?), and an elven fighter-mage (Bard might be a good single class to reflect the old OD&D Elf class...and allow him to wear the winged helmet while spellcasting!). Bring back Bargle. Or Baron Black Eagle von Hendricks. Or Warduke. Or Venger. Using a classic villain that you loved to hate 20 years ago might help bring back part of that classic feel. Running conversions of old modules is also a plus. And don't worry about "who would make them" when choosing magic items for treasure. No one ever asked who made the daggers +1 and helms of telepathy and scrolls of floating disk back in the old days. They were made by someone, that someone is likely now dead, and some monster has it now. That's about all I can think of for now.