"Common Ground" modifiers to social rolls? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Common Ground" modifiers to social rolls? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShadowDragon8685
02-10-06, 07:09 PM This is something I was thinking of when I was trying to decide exactly why Knowledge (Nobility) is worth a +2 modifier to Diplomacy.

What does an Orc chieftan or a hermit wizard/druid/ranger care about how well you know Nobility. (Arguable that famous Orc chiefs count as Nobility, but hermits? Nah.)

So it got me to thinking. What it's really talking about is establishing common ground, which is a big part of talking to someone. Two geeks talking in indecipherable technobabble is an obvious example, but it could also be two leathernecks rapidly talking in the jargon, or two bards sprinkling their speech with musical phrases. (The kind used to describe music, not the part of music that is known AS a phrase.)

Obviously, this is going to be long, drawn-out, and often subjected to the DM's whims. But bear with me if you like.

Establishing common grounds can be done on the basis of skills known, spells known, feats acquired, equipment used, or alignment and class levels, though these are a more major point than the others, and are covered seperately.. (As well as anything else that might come up.)

Obviously, common ground requires dialouge and interaction. You can only use common ground modifiers when you're talking to someone who is at the worst indifferent to you.

First, get any class and alignment modifiers out of the way, if any.

Let's say Jodie and Garu are sitting in a pub, chatting as they watch the city go by busily through the window. Jodie and Garu are both Rogues. Thus, they get a +2 social mod for one another. Neither of them has to know this conciously. They have achieved common ground on the grounds of class levels, talking and thinking at least similarly to the other.

Let us presume, for a moment, that Jodie was a Bard. Bard and Rogue are very similar, even related classes. The bonus would be +1. Only the best class-match in any given scenario involving multiclassed characters works. (Exception: Members of the same Prestige Class gain a +4 bonus, not a +2 bonus.)

So. Jodie and Garu are rogues. Jodie is Chaotic Good, Garu is Neutral Good. They have one common alignment axis and no opposed alignment axes. They have a +1 modifier on Alignment grounds.

Let us presume for a moment that both were Chaotic Good. The bonus would be +1. Likewise if Garu were Chaotic Neutral, or Jodie was Lawful Good. Had they been opposed on one axis; IE, CG and LG, the penalty would cancel the bonus out. Had they not achieved any common ground; IE TN to CG, there would be no bonus. Were there an opposition on one grounds and no common ground, IE CG to NE, there would be a -1 penalty, and for true opposites CG to LE, the penalty would be -4. Opposition is always stronger when you are nemesi, after all.

Now, Jodie and Garu have a +3 bonus. +2 for both being Rogues, and +1 for both being Good. Now, tally up their common skills. Only count skills that are being demonstrated or talked about. For example, say they both have ranks in Sleight of Hand. Most likely, trying to pick each other's pockets will not end nicely (the obviously romantic notion of clasping each other's hands while trying to pick each other's pockets and then a spark flying being excepted,) but Jodie might be playing with a coin in her hand, practicing feats of legerdemain. This catches Garu's attention, and she attempts to impress the other woman by handing Garu a coin out of her own pocket. (Common ground was made when Jodie started playing with the coin, and this is a harmless act of impressionism, not attempted theft.) That achieved, they each recieve a further +2 modifier on common ground.

What happens when the subjects have vastly inequal skills? Tally the ranks only. If Garu had five or more ranks of Sleight of Hand than Jodie did, Jodie would be impressed to the tune of +3 social mod, and Garu would feel affection for a promising youngster. The bonus continues to inequalize every five ranks; if Garu had 10 more ranks than Jodie, Jodie would be flattened by Garu's astonishing ability to the tune of +4, but Garu would be unimpressed by Jodie's young and naive grasp of the skill, leaving her with a 0 mod. It continues onwards and upwards.

Once a 'base' commonality has been established, IE: whichever skill they find most common (IE: The one in which their combined ranks are greater than any other combined-rank skill,) add a further decreasing bonus for each common skill.

IE: They both have ranks in Perform, add +1 social mod. They both have ranks in Diplomacy and Sense Motive, add +1 mod. They both have ranks in Handle Animal, Knowledge Nature, and Move Silently: +1 mod. And so forth and so on. (Note that you must have a minimum of five ranks in each of the skills you want to use to establish secondary common ground. This is to prevent someone from taking one rank of every skill for a lot of common ground.)

Now, feats. Common-ground-feats cannot come from class levels or features for both participants, although bonus feats count.

Let us say, for example, that Jodie and Garu have both partaken of the Trustworthy feat. In addition to the bonus the feat grants by itself, they each find each other even more suitably trustworthy, to the tune of a +2 modifier.

And let us also say that both have also chosen to have Weapon Focus for daggers. +1 bonus.

Additionally, they each have Skill Focus in Move Silently, and the Stealthy feat to boot. Another +1. And so forth, and so on.

And that leaves us with commonalty of equipment. This should only be equipment that someone has spent considerable time and interest in getting and maintaining. Anything you've taken at least one feat for qualifies, as does anything that you've made your 'signature.' We already know that Jodie and Garu are dagger lovers. +2 for each of them. Suppose that Jodie had preferred Punching Daggers? The relation would be +1, or likewise if she preferred Short Swords. They're related, similar weapons. This works likewise with armor; idential types of armor (or clothing, or magical items, etcetera,) grant a +2 bonus.

Additionally, both of them prefer to use padded armor. Another common grounds, +1. And so forth and so on.

Jodie and Garu are, naturally, perfect matches for one another. It should come as no surprise that even before Diplomacy and Charisma comes into the equation, they get along well and like each other. It's no stretch that after some time talking, Jodie makes a pass that Garu accepts readily.

I know it's not fully-fleshed-out and barely codified, but what does everyone think?
Shaggy_Shaggs
02-10-06, 08:08 PM I think the mechanic is far too complicated to see much use in play, it's too likely to bog things down. The idea has merit (and saved a certain CE thief's skin dealing with a red dragon years ago), but I think it's best implemented as a single circumstance modifier on the check, based on DM judgement call.
pmurray@bigpond.com
02-11-06, 11:38 AM Or, you could give the Barbarian a +2 circumstance bonus when talking to the orc chieftan, and leave it at that.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShadowDragon8685 02-10-06, 07:09 PM	This is something I was thinking of when I was trying to decide exactly why Knowledge (Nobility) is worth a +2 modifier to Diplomacy. What does an Orc chieftan or a hermit wizard/druid/ranger care about how well you know Nobility. (Arguable that famous Orc chiefs count as Nobility, but hermits? Nah.) So it got me to thinking. What it's really talking about is establishing common ground, which is a big part of talking to someone. Two geeks talking in indecipherable technobabble is an obvious example, but it could also be two leathernecks rapidly talking in the jargon, or two bards sprinkling their speech with musical phrases. (The kind used to describe music, not the part of music that is known AS a phrase.) Obviously, this is going to be long, drawn-out, and often subjected to the DM's whims. But bear with me if you like. Establishing common grounds can be done on the basis of skills known, spells known, feats acquired, equipment used, or alignment and class levels, though these are a more major point than the others, and are covered seperately.. (As well as anything else that might come up.) Obviously, common ground requires dialouge and interaction. You can only use common ground modifiers when you're talking to someone who is at the worst indifferent to you. First, get any class and alignment modifiers out of the way, if any. Let's say Jodie and Garu are sitting in a pub, chatting as they watch the city go by busily through the window. Jodie and Garu are both Rogues. Thus, they get a +2 social mod for one another. Neither of them has to know this conciously. They have achieved common ground on the grounds of class levels, talking and thinking at least similarly to the other. Let us presume, for a moment, that Jodie was a Bard. Bard and Rogue are very similar, even related classes. The bonus would be +1. Only the best class-match in any given scenario involving multiclassed characters works. (Exception: Members of the same Prestige Class gain a +4 bonus, not a +2 bonus.) So. Jodie and Garu are rogues. Jodie is Chaotic Good, Garu is Neutral Good. They have one common alignment axis and no opposed alignment axes. They have a +1 modifier on Alignment grounds. Let us presume for a moment that both were Chaotic Good. The bonus would be +1. Likewise if Garu were Chaotic Neutral, or Jodie was Lawful Good. Had they been opposed on one axis; IE, CG and LG, the penalty would cancel the bonus out. Had they not achieved any common ground; IE TN to CG, there would be no bonus. Were there an opposition on one grounds and no common ground, IE CG to NE, there would be a -1 penalty, and for true opposites CG to LE, the penalty would be -4. Opposition is always stronger when you are nemesi, after all. Now, Jodie and Garu have a +3 bonus. +2 for both being Rogues, and +1 for both being Good. Now, tally up their common skills. Only count skills that are being demonstrated or talked about. For example, say they both have ranks in Sleight of Hand. Most likely, trying to pick each other's pockets will not end nicely (the obviously romantic notion of clasping each other's hands while trying to pick each other's pockets and then a spark flying being excepted,) but Jodie might be playing with a coin in her hand, practicing feats of legerdemain. This catches Garu's attention, and she attempts to impress the other woman by handing Garu a coin out of her own pocket. (Common ground was made when Jodie started playing with the coin, and this is a harmless act of impressionism, not attempted theft.) That achieved, they each recieve a further +2 modifier on common ground. What happens when the subjects have vastly inequal skills? Tally the ranks only. If Garu had five or more ranks of Sleight of Hand than Jodie did, Jodie would be impressed to the tune of +3 social mod, and Garu would feel affection for a promising youngster. The bonus continues to inequalize every five ranks; if Garu had 10 more ranks than Jodie, Jodie would be flattened by Garu's astonishing ability to the tune of +4, but Garu would be unimpressed by Jodie's young and naive grasp of the skill, leaving her with a 0 mod. It continues onwards and upwards. Once a 'base' commonality has been established, IE: whichever skill they find most common (IE: The one in which their combined ranks are greater than any other combined-rank skill,) add a further decreasing bonus for each common skill. IE: They both have ranks in Perform, add +1 social mod. They both have ranks in Diplomacy and Sense Motive, add +1 mod. They both have ranks in Handle Animal, Knowledge Nature, and Move Silently: +1 mod. And so forth and so on. (Note that you must have a minimum of five ranks in each of the skills you want to use to establish secondary common ground. This is to prevent someone from taking one rank of every skill for a lot of common ground.) Now, feats. Common-ground-feats cannot come from class levels or features for both participants, although bonus feats count. Let us say, for example, that Jodie and Garu have both partaken of the Trustworthy feat. In addition to the bonus the feat grants by itself, they each find each other even more suitably trustworthy, to the tune of a +2 modifier. And let us also say that both have also chosen to have Weapon Focus for daggers. +1 bonus. Additionally, they each have Skill Focus in Move Silently, and the Stealthy feat to boot. Another +1. And so forth, and so on. And that leaves us with commonalty of equipment. This should only be equipment that someone has spent considerable time and interest in getting and maintaining. Anything you've taken at least one feat for qualifies, as does anything that you've made your 'signature.' We already know that Jodie and Garu are dagger lovers. +2 for each of them. Suppose that Jodie had preferred Punching Daggers? The relation would be +1, or likewise if she preferred Short Swords. They're related, similar weapons. This works likewise with armor; idential types of armor (or clothing, or magical items, etcetera,) grant a +2 bonus. Additionally, both of them prefer to use padded armor. Another common grounds, +1. And so forth and so on. Jodie and Garu are, naturally, perfect matches for one another. It should come as no surprise that even before Diplomacy and Charisma comes into the equation, they get along well and like each other. It's no stretch that after some time talking, Jodie makes a pass that Garu accepts readily. I know it's not fully-fleshed-out and barely codified, but what does everyone think?
Shaggy_Shaggs 02-10-06, 08:08 PM	I think the mechanic is far too complicated to see much use in play, it's too likely to bog things down. The idea has merit (and saved a certain CE thief's skin dealing with a red dragon years ago), but I think it's best implemented as a single circumstance modifier on the check, based on DM judgement call.
pmurray@bigpond.com 02-11-06, 11:38 AM	Or, you could give the Barbarian a +2 circumstance bonus when talking to the orc chieftan, and leave it at that.