Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TRCEttin 01-24-06, 08:37 PM	Recently I've been trying to set up some more tactical encounters for my party, but I've run into a problem. Specifically, a problem player. He isn't that bad, really, but several of my players now firmly believe that he is a moron. Firstly - this isn't 100% relevant, but it does help to picture this whole thing - his memory apparently sucks. He tends to ask annoying questions that usually involve him needing to have something clarified/be reminded of something, that "something" being any incredibly basic plot point that happened more than two weeks ago. (random example - his character gets a magic weapon. I tell him what the weapon's abilities are. A while later, he asks if I could clarify what the weapon does for him. A week or so after that, his character is wondering what weapon to use and he asks what the weapon I gave him does again.) This does get on your nerves after the first five times, so I've started to insist he make campaign notes (and will refuse to deal with questions that wouldn't have to be asked if he didn't make them). He also has a reputation for taking various things before the game (pot, medicine that messes up the head in various games), although he insists that he hasn't done it in a while (this is an online game, so there's no way to verify, and he's a little foolish anyway). The major problem is that he claims to have a 'textbook learning problem'. This essentially means that I have to flip through rulebooks for him whenever he declares he does anything, because he apparently doesn't even read his own feat descriptions. (trying to take a five-foot step and cleaving, for example). Most of his characters are fighters - he only has one cleric, and he has trouble reading the spell descriptions too. (this is after at least a year of D&Ding, although he still claims to be a complete newbie who needs help.) On top of that, his sheet is a little wrong - he built the fighter for the latest campaign using 3.0 rules (we clearly always use 3.5) and I've had to make corrections to it so parts of it add up properly. (no miscalculations were to his advantage.) Whenever battle starts, his main (only) tactic is to charge the nearest enemy, regardless of terrain or what he's facing, and roll attack every round, occasionally stopping to use a feat etc. he doesn't understand. It's hard to get him to do anything - and particularly hard to trip/disarm him or anything else that would make him stop and think, because he tends to use the MM instead of the PHB when picking races and would rather have a huge boost to his primary stat than decent BAB, hp and saves. I plan to throw a wizard at him to take advantage of his terrible saves, but I suspect he'd just try and charge it anyway. What else should I do, IC and OOC, to make him stop and think (and RTFM)?
Hodo 01-24-06, 08:51 PM	If the player is bringing down the level of enjoyment for everyone involved, it might be easier to explain how his play style and constant re-education of the basic rules is hindering the enjoyment of other players and that you're going to have to let him go. Either he genuinely has some sort of disability or he's just being annoying. Since the game is being held on the internet, it can be difficult to tell. I would give him the benefit of the doubt, but that does not mean you're entitled to DM for him. Since you say you have to repeat many things to him over and over and that his tactics don't seem well thought out or influenced by past experiences, that this is not something that is going to change any time soon. Either make the commitment to help him along and begin making accomodations to the game taking it into account (hoping for change), or ask him not to play and possibly direct him towards another group. But trying to and expecting to radically change his ways, or continuing to DM him and complain about it don't sound like the more frustrating courses of actions.
TRCEttin 01-24-06, 08:58 PM	True. For the record, I don't think he's actually mentally disabled - although those meds he (used to?) take probably amounted to the same thing. Things have been explained, but he usually just complains about his textbook learning problem or how the other players hate him (if I'm bringing it up on behalf of them). I don't expect him to change immediately. What I'm hoping for is an idea of something to do - preferably IC, although something OOC like sitting down every player/DM in every game he's in to talk (most would agree) would work - that would help him get the hint that he's going to have to. And by "hint" I mean "big glaringly obvious HINT shoved in his face in a non-offensive way". Something I can follow up after the game with a talk and expect him to go "I see your point" instead of "You'll have to bear with me for a while".
nodaisho 01-24-06, 09:06 PM	online game? where do they have those?
TRCEttin 01-24-06, 09:11 PM	online game? where do they have those? Basically, play D&D over some kind of program that lets you all communicate. Personally I prefer IRC (specifically mIRC). The place you host the game becomes the table, and everything is otherwise the same except that character sheets are often (with us, anyway) typed up in Word or Notepad instead of written down.
trapspringer 01-24-06, 09:24 PM	Kick him. I don't put up with pot-heads at my game table because it makes it to hard to get things done. Even the players in my game that don't have rule books (not you, the other one) have at least a basic grasp of how things work in 3.5.
nodaisho 01-24-06, 09:26 PM	Basically, play D&D over some kind of program that lets you all communicate. Personally I prefer IRC (specifically mIRC). The place you host the game becomes the table, and everything is otherwise the same except that character sheets are often (with us, anyway) typed up in Word or Notepad instead of written down. oh, okay. I was thinking there was some site that has servers and lists of members looking for a gamegroup, kinda like MTGO.
Hodo 01-24-06, 09:30 PM	True. For the record, I don't think he's actually mentally disabled - although those meds he (used to?) take probably amounted to the same thing. Things have been explained, but he usually just complains about his textbook learning problem or how the other players hate him (if I'm bringing it up on behalf of them). I don't expect him to change immediately. What I'm hoping for is an idea of something to do - preferably IC, although something OOC like sitting down every player/DM in every game he's in to talk (most would agree) would work - that would help him get the hint that he's going to have to. And by "hint" I mean "big glaringly obvious HINT shoved in his face in a non-offensive way". Something I can follow up after the game with a talk and expect him to go "I see your point" instead of "You'll have to bear with me for a while". I believe you should avoid being so passive aggressive with the hints, and mentioning of his shortcommings and just flat out tell him that unless his style changes, that you will no longer be willing to play with him. It's likely that he's not going to enjoy it, but neither you, nor the rest of the players are enjoying yourselves thusfar, mostly in direct response to his actions. You would honestly be better off without this player, or just working around him. Dancing around the issue and dropping hints, no matter how large (which is still not directly adressing the issue) are doing nothing but making an otherwise simple situation so much more needlessly complex and frustrating. Adress the issue honestly and objectively from the viewpoint of what's best for the overall group and future of the campaign.
Hodo 01-24-06, 09:49 PM	Meh double post
Grushvak 01-24-06, 11:05 PM	Reminds me of one of my players. He doesn't really know much about the rules and he really slows the game down when trying to decide what to do, what spell to cast, etc. But this isn't the biggest problem. As is the case with your player, he smokes pot before the game. And during the game. He never stops. And neither do my other players. But then, I get drunk and it even things out a bit. So, here's my suggestion: bring a bottle of whiskey to each game you DM. ^^
Frodo Lives 01-24-06, 11:34 PM	I don't think being subtle will help this guy. Tell him point blank, nicely, that his actions are spoiling the fun for other players. Let him know that he is more than welcome back to the game once he has learned the rules and can keep up with the rest of you. If he complains about his disability then tell him you are sorry but you have the rest of the group to think about as well. Disablility doesn't equal hopeless and it doesn't mean he can't learn what he needs to know, it just might take longer for him than it would for some others. If he says he has read the PHB and knows the rules better then give him one more chance. But only one. You are not his big brother that has to look out for him and is responsible for him. If he is simply incapable of learning the rules then he unfortuneatly is incapable of playing period. I have a feeling that this guy just doesn't want to make the effort because it is easier to be a pain in the butt.
Kuronue 01-24-06, 11:57 PM	you play on IRC? Are you accepting new players? I'm looking for a new game to be a player in (being the DM 100% of the time is never healthy...) PM me if you are. as for the question... are you sure the kid doesn't just have ADD? because that sounds like classic ADD or ADHD, and if it's online you can't be sure he's high...
Morbid 01-25-06, 12:56 AM	My players have a bad case of RTFM. (For anyone who doesn't know, RTFM means Read The Manual :D )
Loren Pechtel 01-25-06, 01:00 AM	The ADA doesn't apply to DND games. One warning, then boot.
Fidgit Surefoot 01-25-06, 04:43 PM	Boy do I understand your problem! Actually I'm a player in a game with someone who just doesn't seem smart enough to be playing. I don't think he does drugs, but he has got to be of limited capacity. Our problem is that we know he isn't trying to be an idiot, it's just the way the guy is. In our first party he was a bard, and so he would just sit back and sing while we were getting mopped up by monsters, and if the fight started to come to him...he would be the first to turn and run from combat. He kept saying that he couldn't do anything because he was playing a mandolin, which required both hands, but then a few of us suggested that he pick up "singing" and carry a bow so that he could still do his bardic music as well as plink a few arrows here and there to help us. That really didn't even work. I swear he spent his time at the entrance to every dungeon room that we ever went into. He was about one foot from the door to take off at any time. It was like having a +2hit/damage singing brick that traveled around with us! The other thing was that the one time we did ask him to give a hand he came up and got critted or just really badly smacked by a enemy and hit the dirt unconscious. He was so mad at us even though our fighter (me) covered his square and started fending the mass of enemies with the help of the party, while an NPC with us dragged him back and healed him. From then on he wouldn't even come close to combat. He even ended up causing a TPK, by running off into an unexplored part of a dungeon without the rest of the party. Mind you he was pretty badly hurt, and our party wasn't doing so well, but when he ran off a monster grabbed him and dropped him. Not knowing that he was dead our "GOOD" alignment characters decided we had to go after him, and by the time we got to what was feeding on him it finished us off as well. Well since we've created new characters and he's playing a ranged combatant and he's still staying in the back but at least he's kind of contributing now. He is still as dumb as they come and we're constanly having to babysit him. Oh yeah the other really funny thing is that he has to use his fingers to add numbers smaller than 10 (ie 4+4). Now I'm not great at math but come on give me a break how dumb can you be? For example: Our DM has us keep our characters on a online character sheet as well as the one we bring to games, so that he can look over what we have and "plot our demise". Anyway, even his online character has all kinds of mathematical errors, and I know our DM is constantly having to remind him to add all his bonuses up. It's really funny, because due to his bad math skills he has a natural -2 to do most of his actions. Well anyway good luck with your guy, and if you want my opinion I say put yourself in the other players shoes and see how you feel. If it didn't detract from the game then you obviously wouldn't be posting in the first place!
TRCEttin 01-25-06, 11:01 PM	I'm going to give him another chance. I've been talking to him over the last day or so (not directly, just about his character and the game) and he seems focused enough. We have another game in a few days, so I'm going to warn him beforehand and then gauge how he goes. you play on IRC? Are you accepting new players? I'm looking for a new game to be a player in (being the DM 100% of the time is never healthy...) PM me if you are. Unfortunately, not at the moment. :/ But if you like, you can drop me a PM so I remember who to look for if a spot opens up/I need players for a new campaign. :)
Bruenor CrimsonHammer 01-26-06, 12:44 PM	don't make this I have a player like this too and I decided to kick him that is a good choice, your roleplaying we surely be better after
Eppek_the_Goblin 01-26-06, 01:48 PM	I think every gaming group has experienced one of these players at one point or another. Dumb players are about as prevalent as dumb people. As dungeon masters, we have two options: We can allow the dumb player to continue playing, and try to find some comfort in the fact that dumb players add to the realism of the game; or we can kick the dumb player out of the group, rationalizing that this isn't reality - it's a game - and it's supposed to be fun! So it's up to you. You can be a masochistic realist - it's true that some people actually enjoy being subjected to hours of repetitive, tedious banter (just look at the legions of scholars paying thousands of dollars just to clog up our institutes of higher learning). But since D&D to me is more of an escape from reality (which is why the whole issue of smoking pot during a game seems a little superfluous), I say give 'em da boot.
FolcoTook 01-26-06, 02:00 PM	Well, as a player I have quit a game due to a player who just 'didn't get it.' The guy was a decent guy and I don't think he was a drug user, but he just couldn't (or wouldn't) learn the mechanics of the game. The worst part was that he didn't know what he didn't know. To cover his lack of rules knowledge, he'd pretty much just make stuff up and then argue with us when we would show him, in the books, why things didn't work like that. Eventually I got too fed up with it and stopped attending the games. It was an 'open' game run in a game shop, so I don't think that the DM (the shop owner) was willing to boot anyone. try to find some comfort in the fact that dumb players add to the realism of the gameThanks, I needed the laugh. -FT
Arrowhen 01-26-06, 02:33 PM	as for the question... are you sure the kid doesn't just have ADD? because that sounds like classic ADD or ADHD... I have ADD and my wife has ADHD. Neither of us has insurance, so we're not taking any medication for it, even though we probably should. In spite of this, I manage to DM just fine and she manages to play just fine; neither of us exhibit behavior anywhere near what the OP describes.
Simi 01-26-06, 04:18 PM	I have ADD and my wife has ADHD. Neither of us has insurance, so we're not taking any medication for it, even though we probably should. In spite of this, I manage to DM just fine and she manages to play just fine; neither of us exhibit behavior anywhere near what the OP describes. I agree. I also have ADD and have been playing for 11 years. And I also do not take medication.
Bruunwald 01-26-06, 05:23 PM	Just to let you know I feel your pain, I had a player in the game for years who did similar things with memory just because he thought he was clever and funny doing it. He'd ask you for the fifth time what a thing did, what that NPC's name was, what some rule was, and if you weren't sure at first if he was pulling your leg, you'd know when you answered and he started twisting what you said until it was barely recognizable. Example: "What was that guy's name again?" "Baltor." "Right, Balor." "No, Baltor. With a 't.'" "Right, Balor Bob. Well, where is Belkin now? Can we see Billy anywhere?" Now, that's a minor example. Anyone can brush that off as simple silliness. But you can see where, when it counted and it was a matter of actual rulings and he started in on this, and people were waiting on him, and characters' lives hung in the balance, this could get pretty annoying. "What was that rule? How many people are counting on me? How into it is everybody? Okay, I'm going to choose this crucial moment to break character and act like I don't know what any of the rules are." On the other hand, I have another player who just has a bad memory and doesn't know the proper time to get re-aquainted with a rule. At first we thought he was cheating 90% of the time. Now it turns out he's only cheating about 50% of the time. He's just bad at remembering some things. But the problem that persists, is that sometimes he starts reading a rule before his turn comes 'round, and then interrupts another player's turn to ask a question about it. His girlfriend then usually gives him the proverbial tongue-lashing, which is the funny part. So I feel your pain. (No, I don't need advice on this. I know it's an annoyance. It's just something you have to put up with sometimes when you game with your close friends.)
Ravenseye 01-26-06, 10:56 PM	This post could have been written by me, except for the IRC part. I have a player who frequently smokes pot before we play. It's sort of traditional, in that when we were in college we'd be passing the bowl around the table as we played. Now though we're all over 30 and nobody else smokes anymore. Sometimes he's more or less functional, and when that's the case all is fine. He's a smart guy on the whole and works his ass off (he's a doctor) and what little free time he has, he likes to relax, and pot is just one of those things that helps him. Problem is that he can really disrupt the game by forgetting what's going on, what the characters are supposed to be doing, etc. Now that said, my solution was simliar to some others here. I let him know that he needed to take notes and refer to them. I also told him to try and not smoke too much pot before playing, but we'll see on that. Also the other players know to do their own notetaking, and mapping.
SodaGuy 01-26-06, 11:01 PM	Drop him like a big sack of dumb. It makes it easier that you don't know him and can block his screen name.
Kuronue 01-26-06, 11:10 PM	I agree. I also have ADD and have been playing for 11 years. And I also do not take medication. Yeah, but a lot of younger people with it can't handle it as maturely. Kudos to the people who posted having such, though, I applaud your maturity.
Jacilla 01-28-06, 01:14 AM	We had a close friend that had a significant learning disability and used drugs as well (He was a crack baby and his parents still used so what can you expect?) but he was a really nice guy. And he sounds a lot like your friend. We solved the problem by assigning someone in the group as a sort of mentor (?) one of the other players would sit with him and answer his questions, look stuff up for him and help him decide what his character should do. This worked very well. And could be done online via IM's. Not everyone is as fortunate as we are to be "normal" and kicking someone out of a game because you're not sure is kind of, well, mean. Who knows, the game he's in may be the highlight of his life, the one time he's not picked on as being a "freak, weirdo, spaz" or whatever people call people like that nowadays (Yeah I'm old). My advice is to work with him as I mentioned before, you never know the good deed you may be doing.