Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celloshane 12-21-07, 06:48 PM	Next month I'll be starting a new campaign with 4 players who haven't played in over a decade and 1 or 2 players from my regular group. I'd like to give my new players a refresher course on DnD and familiarize them with 3.5 before we begin the campaign itself. I felt that they would have an easier time absorbing the information if we started with simplified versions of the character sheets. I plan to hand them premade character sheets and run the A Dark and Stormy Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20050329a) adventure, followed by some choice example encounters. These sheets would have a short character profile and an example of how the character works best in the party. I would exclude information like: Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha Skills the character does not have points in Feats Racial features and other non-essential info Spells known Math used to determine modifiers Basically I would hand them a sheet that cuts all the math out and only shows the modifiers that directly affect the dice rolls along with essentials like HP and AC. I also want this sheet to show a couple common actions they can take during combat, so they can quickly choose one action and roll the dice. For example, the Cleric would choose between Attack or Heal and the Wizard would choose between Magic Missle and Color Spray, ect. I would like some help deciding what classes to use for this intro, as well as what combat abilities to put on those sheet. Also, does anyone have suggestions for the extraneous encounters that would help demonstrate some of the more sophisticated aspects of the rules?
cinnamonator 12-21-07, 09:22 PM	It's always been my observation and experience that people perform what they practice. If you practice a dumbed-down version of 3.5 then that is what your players will practice in a game. I'd say just go with the full feature, at least then your new players will know what to expect from your full campaign. Instead of them getting to the table and become dissatisfied because all of a sudden there is 3 times the material that they haven't dealt with before. Set the bar high and bring them up to pace.
ppirilla 12-21-07, 10:19 PM	I've been trying to perfect this character sheet for a while, but never got the final touches in. It was originally designed to be a quick-reference sheet, with an in-depth 6 page sheet to go with it and track level by level progression. The large empty box near top center is meant for AC. I want to draw in a shield of some sort, but never got around to it. It lists every skill that can be used untrained and leaves a number of blank spots at the bottom for other trained skills. If you have a program capable of reading it, here's the Open Document Spreadsheet file: http://www.mediafire.com/?5rcdzwe3zrc Otherwise, here it is as a PDF: http://www.mediafire.com/?c5pinwkximc Edit: As for pregen characters, if you're expecting 6 players, I would recommend building 8-10 characters. Stick to cliches. Dwarf Fighter, Half-Orc Barbarian. Human Cleric, Half-Elf Druid. Elf Wizard, Human Sorcerer, Gnome Bard. Halfling Rogue, Human Rogue, maybe a Scout from CAdventurer.
Sinis 12-21-07, 10:22 PM	Honestly, the character sheet available for photocopy in the back of the Player's Handbook is quite explicit on how things add up, and it's a mere two pages. All the skills are marked whether they can be used untrained, how AC, Init, attack rolls, and grapple break down. I've never wanted anything else in a sheet.
ThePyrozoan 12-21-07, 10:55 PM	I find that the second page of the character sheet is better when replaced with a sheet of white lined paper. All the spell slot stuff is far too distracting for any non-caster, and the lines are too small to write anything in anyway, and items and languages and abilities are easily just listed, whithout all the graphic fluff in btween.
Arco Versipellis 12-21-07, 11:00 PM	We used hand written character sheets a lot, so they were dumbed down. I had a lot of completely new players who were more confused because they had no idea what their modifiers represented. We have begun using really in-depth handwritten or typed character sheets now. We don't usually include math breakdowns with the modifiers but they are listed somewhere.
celloshane 12-22-07, 02:05 AM	It's always been my observation and experience that people perform what they practice. If you practice a dumbed-down version of 3.5 then that is what your players will practice in a game. I'd say just go with the full feature, at least then your new players will know what to expect from your full campaign. Instead of them getting to the table and become dissatisfied because all of a sudden there is 3 times the material that they haven't dealt with before. Set the bar high and bring them up to pace. While I do note your point, there is such a thing as information overload. I've had the pleasure of DMing 2 groups in the past that included players completely new to the game. Each time they were given the full character sheet, walked through the creation process, and started at level 1 with more experienced players helping out. Each time the player was level 10 or better before he/she began to make the basic connections about the game mechanics. So while I could simply throw them into an adventure and expect them to sink or swim, I'd prefer to try an introductory process this time around. Don't get me wrong though, I will make them fully aware the the first session(s) will be learning experiences and once we start the campaign it will be full contact. Ideally, I'll run one introductory session and cap it with character creation; making sure the players understand their choices, abilities, and roles. The first campaign will still be a learning process in itself. I have a hardcore Ebberon campaign in mind as my goal for the second campaign. My main concern at this time is creating encounters that allow me to teach the bulk of the combat system in the first session.
neceros 01-26-08, 09:18 PM	Might I recommend www.neceros.com. It's a very logical sheet that resembles the core character sheet, but has been expanded to include and guide the information to show where totals are derived from. Also, if you need something specifically made I can help.
Sildatorak 01-26-08, 11:36 PM	You said that these players have played before, and I think you're underestimating their ability to pick up the changes. If they were playing over a decade ago they dealt with THAC0, die bonuses being treated as subtraction from target numbers, etc. The math of 3.x is trivial. That said, I think you're better off using the first page of the generic character sheet that has been selectively highlighted. If you highlight the final mods for the skills they have ranks in, their attack bonuses and damage numbers, and their final saves (preferably putting each in a different color), you will be able to direct their attention to the right place. Those who are math adept will pick up on where the mods are coming from, and those who are not aren't going to be helped by not showing it to them. There are parts of your post that I agree with, mainly that for the pregen characters having their spells known on the sheet will provide confusion. Just list the ones they have prepped and you'll be fine. The toughest part of the transition from 2e to 3e is the differences in the action system used in combat. I've had the most success explaining it (both to true novices and grognards) as one interesting action and one boring action. A short list of each would be worthwhile.
IAmTheScum 01-27-08, 02:22 AM	They're going to have to learn it eventually. If not now, when? Sildatorak is exactly right about the old way. Teaching second edition was a miserable and embarrassing process. Third edition is simple. "Roll a d20, add a bonus, and try to meet or beat a target number." That's how I explained it to my group of complete newbs and they're getting along just fine. All good character sheets will have plenty of space detailing the addition required. And that's all that there is to the mechanics of making the character: Totaling bonuses. For example, the melee attack bonus portion will look something like this... Melee: [ ] = [ ] + [ ] Total Str BAB Great for first timers. Don't make the mistake of going easy on character creation. Walking them through it for a little while is fine, but the system you have set up doesn't even let them know their stats. I understand that you want to focus on the "fun" parts of the game, but the game's gonna hit a screeching halt when it comes time to do something as simple as bashing down a door. I rushed through creation the first time with my group, basically doing all the work for them. For a while, they continued to depend on me when it came time to make new characters, as though it was extremely difficult and I was the only one who understood the meticulous arcane secrets. "Just go through the PHB. Each chapter is another step in the process." They're fine now.
celloshane 01-28-08, 02:22 PM	Thanks for all the suggestions folks. Due to my procastination the first session came and went without me having my "dumbed down" sheets prepared. I went ahead and walked my players through the character creation, but I'll consider this a excercise to keep in mind for the future. There were some excellent points raised, especially that not having the math may be just as confusing for some, so I'll ponder those points if I ever attempt this again. Btw, Neceros' sheets are simply beautiful. I'm going to suggest that my players begin using those instead of the deluxe sheets.
wrecan 01-28-08, 02:38 PM	Players don't need to know how stuff is calculated. They just need to know what they can do. Here's an easy way to "dumb down" the sheets. Divide the sheet into a few discrete categories Description Name, Race, Class(es), Level(s), Speed Age, Height, Weight, Hair color, Eye color Offense Initiative Number of attacks the characters gets in a full attack action. Each weapon on a separate row, the Attack Modifier, Damage (w/modifier), Range increment (if any), Energy Type (melee, silver, magic, etc.) and Damage Type (B/P/S). One of the listed weapons should be grapple. All feats/abilities that might modify the above numbers. Other Abilities. Just list anything they might use in combat in alphabetical order with a description. Include miscellaneous magic items as Other Abilities. Defense hit points Armor Classes: Standard, Touch and Flatfooted Saving Throws: Fortitude, Reflex and Will Perception: Spot and Listen checks. Also list any enhance senses (darkvision, low-light vision, etc.) Spells List the number they can memorize/use per day. Leave the slots open and help them fill it in. Have them note the book and page the spell is found in next to the spell name so they don't waste time looking it up. There. That's 99% of what a player needs to know at the game. You can keep a master character sheet that explains how this stuff is calculated. They won't need it. Now here's the rest of the stuff, which you can put on a second page, and I suggest in three separate columns, rather than rows. I'd use a "landscape" format on the page. Abilities. Just list the six and modifiers. Skills. Just list the class skills and aggregate bonus. List any conditional bonuses in parentheses. Equipment and Swag. If you use encumbrance, list weights
kelcimer 01-28-08, 04:19 PM	Each time they were given the full character sheet, walked through the creation process, and started at level 1 with more experienced players helping out. Each time the player was level 10 or better before he/she began to make the basic connections about the game mechanics. A player absorbs information better when there is only one person walking them though character creation. I also find it is much better for me to walk a person though character creation then another player. Failing that, I should be in the same room as it is going on. It's better for me, because then I KNOW what has been gone over with the player. It's better for the new player because they KNOW what the DM has gone over with them. It's part of the start of the DM-Player dialogue. Touch base with them and make sure they understand what they are doing when they level up to level 2. After that, they are on their own.
arjomanes 01-28-08, 09:16 PM	I would list the following info on a cheat sheet character sheet: About: Name, Race, Class, Description, Background, Goals Ability Scores would go below Attacks: Each major attack (sword, quarterstaff, crossbow, etc) Also list special options the class has feats in, like power attack or imp trip Defense: The armor class and the saves Spells and Abilities: The spells and their short description, also class abilities and non-combat feats like track Skills: List the skills they have points in, as well as spot, listen. (The entire list could go on page two). I think this is simple enough for an overview. The more advanced stuff can be learned gradually.
neceros 01-29-08, 12:52 AM	Btw, Neceros' sheets are simply beautiful. I'm going to suggest that my players begin using those instead of the deluxe sheets.Thank you very much. :) I think that selective, passive perception could benefit someone who is unable to handle the full character sheet, however I don't believe that dumbing down a character sheet is required for most people, if at all. I would have to agree that if you give someone a character sheet that does not explain where numbers are coming from some people might be even more confused. I would be confused, but then again I am more logical than I am trusting, also I've played many a gaming system before, so I know numbers come from somewhere. Do whatever works for you. If you slowly build someone up to a full sheet it might just work.
mtbOgre 01-29-08, 01:09 AM	Sounds like you got a ton of advice, I'm curious how your players are doing. My group is equally newbie even after playing for some time. Eventually I just migrated all of their characters into PCGen and more or less let PCGen do the math and I have a fairly simple custom Character sheet I print out for them. The nice thing about PCGen is when it comes time to leveling up it takes about 3-5 minutes and everything is done right.