"Encountering" a Problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Encountering" a Problem [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BloodDragon
07-12-05, 07:18 PM Hey there.

Very simple question that I've scowarded the DMG for and can't seem to find/understand: How do Challange Ratings (CR) and encouter Levels (EL) work?

As I understand it a monster with CR 10 is an even match for a single PC level 10. However if there are more PCs they can take on stronger things.
So 5 PCs are taking on a CR 10 creature what level should they idealy be?

ECLs? No idea how they work. Looking at a custome build quest from a dragon magazine and the number vary. I'm just confused.

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Due excuse any typos I don't seem I haven't had coffee yet.
Wookie1120
07-12-05, 07:23 PM a part of 4 level 10 characters should be able to handle 4 CR 10 encounters in a given day before needing to heal/recover spells/ run out of x/day abilities. the CR should match the level of the party. a little less maybe for 'minor' encounters, a little more for 'major' battles.
ATynam
07-12-05, 07:38 PM How do Challange Ratings (CR) and encouter Levels (EL) work?

In my experience, very badly.
A lot depends on how resourceful the players are and on how the dice roll.

Depending on how much time you have as a DM try and play out a sample combats on your own.

Usually I find that it is not a good idea to throw a single higher CR creature against the party but to throw a few more of the lower CR creatures. This is mainly due to the abilities a higher CR creature will have.

As to your question on ECL's there is a thread here:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=462992

you might find useful.
VirgilCaine
07-12-05, 07:49 PM NO! A single PC vs. a CR 10 monster will DIE.
The system is set up so that four PCs can take four encounters of an EL equal to their level, each taking 20-25% of their resources, before they need to rest.
createvmind
07-12-05, 11:14 PM The CR of a creature is based against it fighting 4 PCs or NPC combination of the same level. CR's are based on PC's using about a 3rd of resources , magic, potions, etc in defeating said SINGLE creature. DnD is basically a grpup against a creature, bad guy, etc.........the CR goes up and down based on situation, such as PC"s having been magic buffed by a mage which helps the fight go better so you lower the CR. Vice versa for enemy if it gets advantages to help it, raise CR.

Hope that helps
Flushmaster
07-13-05, 02:04 AM As I understand it a monster with CR 10 is an even match for a single PC level 10.

You misunderstand in two different ways.

First, as already noted, a CR 10 opponent is an appropriate challenge for a balanced party of four PCs. "Balanced" means that the system is typically expecting the party to consist of one each of the four class archetypes: fighter, cleric, rogue, and mage. "Archetype" is,,, in this case, a fancy word for "category," so a barbarian, paladin, ranger, etc can be considered a fighter archetype while a ninja counts as a rogue, a druid might be interchangeable with a cleric, and a wizard or sorceror counts as the mage. Each archetype brings something different to the team, be it straight-up fighting prowess, divine magic (including healing), arcane magic, and stealth realated abilities. A party of four arcane casters will likely fail dismally against a foe of CR equal to their level if it happens to have a high spell resistance but a group of four fighter types of a level or maybe even two lower might be able to shred the same opponent. If your group isn't "balanced" then you should make sure that you don't put them up against an enemy that has features/abilities that directly counter their overemphasized strengths or is specifically weak to those same strengths; doing so will result in a fast ending to the encounter with your PCs either dead or wondering if things really should have went so easily.

Second, a CR10 opponent is not considered to be an "even match" for a 10th level party of four characters. The vast majority of the time the PCs should be expected to win the fight. If they get wiped out by a monster or NPC of CR equal to their level then one of three things likely happened: the dice just rolled exceptionally bad for the players and well for the baddies, there was some outside circumstance that put the PCs at a disadvantage, or the PCs didn't fight smart (or just did one remarkably dumb thing). After all, what fun is D&D if after every encounter there's a 50% chance that everybody's going to have to make up new characters, since the winner of an "even matchup" is dependant entirely on the roll of the dice? An opponent of CR equal to the party's level is beatable but challenging; as long as you (the DM) make sure that the baddies are fighting smart then your players will have to stay on their toes or get smacked around. As noted already by others, a party is expected to be able to overcome as many as four or five combat encounters of CR equal to their level before stopping to rest. Resting regains some hit points but most importantly spells, including healing spells to patch up the characters as well as the wizard/sorceror's primary combat abilities.

As noted, again, CR is based on a 4 character party. More party members typically means that they can suitably face tougher foes. In my experience a 6 member party can handle most challenges or one CR level above their own. Seven or eight characters can probably handle CRs of 2 or even 3 higher than their level. Be careful though, as a single CR 7 creature can likely tear straight through a group of nine level 4 characters because there is such a disparity between it's abilities and those of each of the PCs; two CR 4 or 5 opponents or three or four CR 3 opponents would likely be a better match. Remember that you should be making the encounter slightly weighted in the players' favor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BloodDragon 07-12-05, 07:18 PM	Hey there. Very simple question that I've scowarded the DMG for and can't seem to find/understand: How do Challange Ratings (CR) and encouter Levels (EL) work? As I understand it a monster with CR 10 is an even match for a single PC level 10. However if there are more PCs they can take on stronger things. So 5 PCs are taking on a CR 10 creature what level should they idealy be? ECLs? No idea how they work. Looking at a custome build quest from a dragon magazine and the number vary. I'm just confused. Thanks in advance! P.S. Due excuse any typos I don't seem I haven't had coffee yet.
Wookie1120 07-12-05, 07:23 PM	a part of 4 level 10 characters should be able to handle 4 CR 10 encounters in a given day before needing to heal/recover spells/ run out of x/day abilities. the CR should match the level of the party. a little less maybe for 'minor' encounters, a little more for 'major' battles.
ATynam 07-12-05, 07:38 PM	How do Challange Ratings (CR) and encouter Levels (EL) work? In my experience, very badly. A lot depends on how resourceful the players are and on how the dice roll. Depending on how much time you have as a DM try and play out a sample combats on your own. Usually I find that it is not a good idea to throw a single higher CR creature against the party but to throw a few more of the lower CR creatures. This is mainly due to the abilities a higher CR creature will have. As to your question on ECL's there is a thread here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=462992 you might find useful.
VirgilCaine 07-12-05, 07:49 PM	NO! A single PC vs. a CR 10 monster will DIE. The system is set up so that four PCs can take four encounters of an EL equal to their level, each taking 20-25% of their resources, before they need to rest.
createvmind 07-12-05, 11:14 PM	The CR of a creature is based against it fighting 4 PCs or NPC combination of the same level. CR's are based on PC's using about a 3rd of resources , magic, potions, etc in defeating said SINGLE creature. DnD is basically a grpup against a creature, bad guy, etc.........the CR goes up and down based on situation, such as PC"s having been magic buffed by a mage which helps the fight go better so you lower the CR. Vice versa for enemy if it gets advantages to help it, raise CR. Hope that helps
Flushmaster 07-13-05, 02:04 AM	As I understand it a monster with CR 10 is an even match for a single PC level 10. You misunderstand in two different ways. First, as already noted, a CR 10 opponent is an appropriate challenge for a balanced party of four PCs. "Balanced" means that the system is typically expecting the party to consist of one each of the four class archetypes: fighter, cleric, rogue, and mage. "Archetype" is,,, in this case, a fancy word for "category," so a barbarian, paladin, ranger, etc can be considered a fighter archetype while a ninja counts as a rogue, a druid might be interchangeable with a cleric, and a wizard or sorceror counts as the mage. Each archetype brings something different to the team, be it straight-up fighting prowess, divine magic (including healing), arcane magic, and stealth realated abilities. A party of four arcane casters will likely fail dismally against a foe of CR equal to their level if it happens to have a high spell resistance but a group of four fighter types of a level or maybe even two lower might be able to shred the same opponent. If your group isn't "balanced" then you should make sure that you don't put them up against an enemy that has features/abilities that directly counter their overemphasized strengths or is specifically weak to those same strengths; doing so will result in a fast ending to the encounter with your PCs either dead or wondering if things really should have went so easily. Second, a CR10 opponent is not considered to be an "even match" for a 10th level party of four characters. The vast majority of the time the PCs should be expected to win the fight. If they get wiped out by a monster or NPC of CR equal to their level then one of three things likely happened: the dice just rolled exceptionally bad for the players and well for the baddies, there was some outside circumstance that put the PCs at a disadvantage, or the PCs didn't fight smart (or just did one remarkably dumb thing). After all, what fun is D&D if after every encounter there's a 50% chance that everybody's going to have to make up new characters, since the winner of an "even matchup" is dependant entirely on the roll of the dice? An opponent of CR equal to the party's level is beatable but challenging; as long as you (the DM) make sure that the baddies are fighting smart then your players will have to stay on their toes or get smacked around. As noted already by others, a party is expected to be able to overcome as many as four or five combat encounters of CR equal to their level before stopping to rest. Resting regains some hit points but most importantly spells, including healing spells to patch up the characters as well as the wizard/sorceror's primary combat abilities. As noted, again, CR is based on a 4 character party. More party members typically means that they can suitably face tougher foes. In my experience a 6 member party can handle most challenges or one CR level above their own. Seven or eight characters can probably handle CRs of 2 or even 3 higher than their level. Be careful though, as a single CR 7 creature can likely tear straight through a group of nine level 4 characters because there is such a disparity between it's abilities and those of each of the PCs; two CR 4 or 5 opponents or three or four CR 3 opponents would likely be a better match. Remember that you should be making the encounter slightly weighted in the players' favor.