Post/Author/DateTime	Post
brendonitis 09-28-03, 05:07 AM	Hi all, I belong to a group of six guys who meet regularly to ply the glorious game of Dungeons and Dragons.. I have Dm'd three games and been a player incountless more and things after all this time we have come to question the experience awards system.. well, one player/former DM who believes that the DMG's XP system is TOO rewarding (what player dislikes excess rewards?? :confused: ) Anyways.. the way I have been (and another person who has also DM'd) calculating XP is as follows: 1) Calculating average Character level (e.g. 2) 2) Attaining monster CR in MM (e.g. wolverine, CR 2) 3) Looking up that table and seeing that a creature with CR 2 yields a base award of 600xp with a 2nd level party. 4) Dividing base xp award by the number of players (e.g. 5) So in the example, each player involved in the encounter would get 120 experience points... Is this correct? I have always thought so, but the other DM suggests that is too much of an award (even though it dropped the barbarian and cleric to below 0).. Help?? Also, with an encounter with more than one type of monster, I've been using that EL table, how does EL and CR compare?? Thanks to all who reply.. :D
MinusInnocence 09-28-03, 06:35 AM	Yes, a 1st, 2nd or 3rd level party would each get 120XP if there were five people in the group. As the DMG describes, CR determines how tough a monster should be (i.e., what level a four-member adventuring party should be to have a fair chance of defeating it: roughly expending 20% of their resources)... while EL describes the average level of the encounter. This goes up or down based on how many opponents are involved. For example, an Ogre is CR2. This means that four 2nd level adventurers (to make things even simpler, assume that this generic, run-of-the-mill, average, middle-of-the-road party consists of a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard and Rogue) should be able to defeat the Ogre on neutral territory (i.e., without either side having a distinct advantage in any way) without sacrificing more than 20% of their expendable resources. This includes ammunition, potions, scrolls, spells, flasks of acid, Hit Points and the like. As an aside, a party shouldn't go for more than four encounters of the appropriate EL without resting. This means that the aforementioned party shouldn't have more than four fights involving solitary Ogres in a single day: such a total would sap roughly 80% of their resources, and the fifth Ogre very well may kill them all. Now, what if your party is 6th level? Obviously, they will have an easier time defeating an Ogre than they did way back when they fought their first Ogre at 2nd level. So, to even the odds, let's make the encounter tougher by adding more Ogres. p49 in the 3.5 DMG gives us an Encounter Level chart. Looking at "Encounter Level", we scroll down to 6th level. We move across until we find the number we want: in this case, 2. We then move our finger up to "Number of Creatures", and the chart has just shown us that we need four Ogres, each of CR2, to equate an EL6 encounter. Let's say the group is only 3rd level, though. The DMG tells us that two opponents of the same CR have EL+2; in other words, Ogres are CR2 and two Ogres are CR2+2, for a total EL4. This is too much! We look across to "Mixed Pair" on the chart. It says 2+1 equals 3 (That's funny, huh?); so, an Ogre plus any CR1 creature stack together to create an EL3, which is perfectly suited for a 3rd level adventuring party. Maybe the Ogre has a Gnoll buddy or something, it doesn't really matter what you use. As a rule of thumb, you should only concern yourself with EL if there is more than one creature involved. Otherwise, only CR is relevant. There are arguments on both sides of the fence: some insist it was important to distinguish between the two to avoid confusion, while others point out that enough people are confused about the whole issue as it is, so obviously they should have stuck with CR or EL as the generic term, but not both. Here's how it works. If you want to add 2 to the EL, double the number of monsters. So, two Wights, CR4, would have an EL6. However, if you only want to boost the EL by 1, add an opponent of CR-2. So, while two 5th level Fighters would be EL7, a 5th level Fighter and a 3rd level Fighter would only be EL6. Note that as the DMG states over and over again, this system falls apart at CR1 or lower. Special consideration must be taken at this level of intricacy: hence, the chart on p49. I hope that cleared something up. Oh, and one more thing: I haven't run the numbers through a date collector or anything but as far as I can tell, your PCs aren't gaining or losing anything as far as XP awards go, no matter which system you choose. For example, the 5th level Fighter we mentioned earlier (WHY WON'T HE JUST DIE??) is only going to give a 10th level party 500XP... but if his other 5th level buddy comes along, that makes an EL7. So, moving two steps over, we get the number of 1,000. Oh, that's interesting... the rate of advancement is identical (this information can be found on p38). Good luck.
brendonitis 09-28-03, 07:50 AM	:confused: well I tried to make sense of it and I got more confused. .I understand what you mean with the EL stuff so at least that cleaared up, also I'm glad the way I calculate is up to scratch.. thanks for the help!:D
Nightshade22 09-28-03, 08:15 AM	I don't giv EXP, I find it's easier to just say, "Zippo, ya got a level." of course, some people can't hold this stuff in their head, and my pcs don't make items or golems or...Ect. Ect. Just my 2CP.
brendonitis 09-29-03, 04:46 AM	:cool: We have tried the "boom, level up!" system before, none of the players enjoyed it because there was no indication of progress and you had no way of knowing how far you were from the attainment of new things, as an Incubus Bard I was itching to level up for skill points and spells... so yeah, did'nt like it that way...
airhead 09-29-03, 02:50 PM	there is an excellent xp/ecl calculator in my sig.
Kalidor 09-29-03, 03:34 PM	DMs who think that its too much experience and 'hate DMing high level parties' are just very limited in my opinion.
TaisharMalkier 09-29-03, 05:11 PM	Zug Zug. "For example, an Ogre is CR2. This means that four 2nd level adventurers (to make things even simpler, assume that this generic, run-of-the-mill, average, middle-of-the-road party consists of a Fighter, Cleric, Wizard and Rogue) should be able to defeat the Ogre on neutral territory (i.e., without either side having a distinct advantage in any way) without sacrificing more than 20% of their expendable resources. This includes ammunition, potions, scrolls, spells, flasks of acid, Hit Points and the like." FYI, Ogres are CR3 now. Shrug. Owlbear skeletons are CR2, and argueably better. Personally, I like using a tad harder encounters then normal. I also give experienced based on how hard it was - its usually roughly near to what it says in the front of the DMG, but if they barely get scratched I do half or less. If they almost get wiped up, I can adjust it upwards if I think its low. That being said, 120 experience is fine for that encounter. Cheers
Matrixy 09-29-03, 07:31 PM	So the worse they do, the more rewards they get. Gooooooood one. I wish I'd come up with that. I mean, it's just so obvious. I think I'll go give that bozo down the street a diploma for being stupid, now.
Lsaer 09-29-03, 11:17 PM	*grins at Matrix* thk. NOOB CANNON!!!! *goes back to his Baer-ish corner* As to Experience, the 120 is just fine for the encounter, it's a risk vs. reward system, that's about it. Matrix, you haven't changed since the good old days of AR. ;-)
Xalxika 09-29-03, 11:30 PM	So far, I've not had a problem as a DM with the experience. I recently became a player (finally a little relief) and my DM has a special way of doing XP and leveling that may work for you. He gives us a level whenever he thinks we have earned one. We gain our experience according to our level, and may even surpass the amount required to go up to the next level, but again, we gain a level when he says so. We can stock our experience and use them for different things. Mages can use it normally for their item creation and golems and the like. Those without such possible XP usage can use their XP for other things. We can trade XP for re-rolls, critical hits, coins, Wish, Resurrection, information, etc. Depending on what we want, it determines how much XP we use up. You can come upwith your own XP for each, and come up with what you will allow, but it is a cool way of doing things. I wouldn't recommend it without looking over the possibilities of good and bad, but I do like this system. Xal