Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Old_One 09-05-05, 10:59 AM	Ok so I have an old player of mine coming into my FR campagin with a new character. He made a 7/1 rogue/shadow dancer. He is a good RPer and know a little bit about rules (enough to know what he is doing but not enough to argue me on rules). And well on his visit to tavren he found a profiteble use for his 9 ranks in Sleight of hand skill (+13 total). And I'm not talking about pick-pocketing. He got into a game of dice. My ad-hoc ruling was that with a DC15 check he can rig the outcome of the dice to anything he wishes, in retrospect I might have had one bear to many in me to make such a ruling :blush: Now I know I can wigle my self out of this since it was only one game and all but I will have to make a sane (read: sober) rule about it for the future. Do any of you have any advice on this matter? I was thinking something along the lines of: Any kind of dice throwing-game: DC 15 SoH (Sleight of Hand) lets you to midify your roll by 1d4 DC 20 SoH lets you modifay your roll by a range of 1 to 6 DC 25 SoH lets you to set the resoult of the roll Cards: I have no idea, I'm not much of a card player (not even my brother will play with me aginst our younger sisters :blush: ) A seperate bluf check lets you not get cought If you can help me out with this I guranty you will all get a VirtRealCookie2000 in your PM inbox as soon as I make a fresh batch :)
Argon_Asimov 09-05-05, 11:25 AM	most games of dice are indeed purely luck, although a crafty cheater may be able to move or influence the dice before anyone notices. The effects you've suggested seem plausable, but you need to up the DC significantly. Also, remember to ave the other players make opposed spot checks to spot him. Some wealthier inns or taverns might have guards on duty who patrol the room looking for just this kind of prestidigitation (speaking of which...). I beieve there is a bard spell somewhere that simply lets you choose the outcome of a dice roll, and spells such as prestidigitation or mage hand may be able to affect the roll as well. Again, some establishments may have people who look out for just this sort of cheating. As for cards. Most card games are purely luck at thier most basic level. You are dealt a hand of cards and have to evaluate how "good" that random outcome is compared to what you tihnk the other players have. For a game like poker, which is largely psychological, you might want to have a system like this: roll d10, the result is how "good" the hand is for each player. Then, the players take turns placing bets. At this stage, everyone must make a bluff check to conceal how good thier hand is, and a sense motive check to determine the quality of the other player's hands. If you beat a player's bluff check, you learn the quality of thier hand within a small range (perhaps d4-1). At the end of the betting, the best hand wins. It might be possible to slip a card into your hand or use similar tactics. The Sleight of Hand check would have to be pretty high. and remember... if anyone gets caught cheating, there's bound to be a brawl. Maybe the next time your palyer walks into a tavern hoping for some quick cash, tell him before he enters that he sees the guards drag a cheater out into the streets and beat him mercilessly for a few minutes. That'll straighten him out.
Ravenseye 09-05-05, 11:37 AM	Dice Games using sleight of hand would be a directly opposed roll. If he's playing one guy, he'd make a sleight of hand roll and the person he's playing would have to make a spot check to see it. If he doesn't see it he doesn't see it. If they're playing in a casino, make sure the dealers, or people managing a dice game like craps have high spot checks. Often there are 2-3 people watching dice games in casinos, all of them actively watching everyone, their bets, and the dice under good lighting. If he's in the back corner of a dark room against a couple of rubes with low spots....well they've got what's coming to them.
Escef 09-05-05, 11:47 AM	Card counters and such are frequently removed from gambling tables once found out. They technically haven't done anything illegal, but the casino chooses not to serve them (which is perfectly legal). Dealers can cheat by stacking the deck, which, as I understand it, is not terribly hard to do. A dealer in league with a player can stealthily flash cards to his accomplice, thus tipping the odds in the cheaters' favor (giving more info about whether to fold or call a likely bluff). These types generally get caught eventually, as they usually don't have enough sense to restrain their winnings to a sane level. Of course, there is always the type who don't play with fair decks, palm cards, etc. The easiest way to deal with these types is to not let them deal and change decks frequently.
ShadowDragon8685 09-05-05, 12:30 PM	The easiest way to rig games of chance, of course, is simply to use magic to dictate which cards are drawn. :)
Divel Unwin 09-05-05, 02:08 PM	Ok, here's a system I use when trying to figure out DCs for things. An average person has 10s across the board for stats, so thats 0 to all checks. With no ranks, any AVERAGE character can get a 1 - 20 result. So if its something an average person should be able to do 100% of the time --- DC 0 75% of the time --- DC 5 50% of the time --- DC 10 ... etc. Now if its something that would require the individual to be trained or better then average stat wise, you need to put it out of the average persons reach. So then I use DCs between 21 and 24 (treating +4 modifiers from high stats as a ceiling here) Now if being better then average stat wise shouldn't be enough, and it should involve high amounts of training or magic, then it needs to be out of the reach of above-average people. This covers DCs of 25 and beyond (this is all with humans in mind) Now you have a player who wants to "fix" a game with dice. Well, now this is just my opinion, but a very dexterious person would be hard pressed to get even a SLEIGHT change in results from anything but TRICK DICE. So, using the dice handed to him and throwing it on a random surface (one that wouldn't be perfectly smooth) would be a DC 25 or greater in my game. That would give a trained person with an 18 dex and 1 rank in Sleight of Hand a 5% chance to control the dice. Of course, a first level expert could have a 40% chance to control the dice with Skill Focus and a maxed dex. Of course, that's just my system. If your game is set to be more heroic or more towards making things easy for the PCs, don't us it. But for me, a 25% chance to control the dice with 1 rank in Sleight of Hand seems TOO easy. :D
revnk 09-05-05, 03:56 PM	The ability to cheat depends partly on the kind of game being played, and on the cheat being attempted. Some generalizations and thoughts: Depending on how often your players are gambling, you might want to consider adding a Knowledge(Gaming) or Profession(Gambler) skill, which would cover most situations where someone wants to cheat or detect cheating. How a player can cheat depends a lot on the kind of game it is, and not just whether it's dice or cards. Notwithstanding what Vegas casinos claim, counting cards is not cheating, it simply involves memorizing/calculating odds based on the cards already in play: but it only works if the game is one in which used cards are not reshuffled back into play. The best way to handle this practice is with the Concentration skill, not Sleight Of Hand. In a pub or house where card-counting is forbidden, monitors need to make a Sense Motive check to detect it. (For those unfamiliar with card-counting: in single-deck Blackjack (e.g.), each round of cards is discarded and the deck is not shuffled between rounds: as a result, an attentive player can attempt to keep track of how many high cards and low cards have already been played, and therefore can guess how many remain in the deck, which gives him an advantage in knowing whether to hit (ask for another card) or stand, and in knowing how to bet. Most systems for counting don't involve actually memorizing the played cards--instead, the counter simply keeps a running score in his head based on what's been played, this score representing how favorable or "hot" the remaining deck is. Vegas casinos ban the practice simply because it gives players an advantage over the House. In a game like Poker, where used cards are shuffled back into the deck after each hand, counting is meaningless.) For a card game like Poker, you need to determine several things. First, does the PC ever actually have control of the deck? If the PC is in a casino where a house dealer deals every hand (the kind of setup you see in televised Poker tournaments), his only option when cheating will be to substitute in a card he's brought in from outside or that he's kept between hands (a card up his sleeve, in other words). In any case, the PC needs to be able to explain in a general way how he's trying to cheat. I would suggest he then needs to make an opposed skill check, Sleight Of Hand vs. Spot checks by his opponents. A PC who creates distractions (e.g. by faking drunkeness and a severe cold while repeatedly mispronouncing his host's name as "Harrigan" or "Larrigan") could earn a Circumstance Bonus to his side of the check; similarly, his opponents might gain a Circ. Bonus if they're on high alert to detect cheaters. If the dealer changes during the game, giving the cheater control of the deck at any point, he can attempt to cheat by rigging the shuffle (the way a magician performing a card trick does) and/or by rigging the deal (e.g. dealing off the bottom of the deck). Again, Sleight Of Hand vs. Spot seems in order here. If the character has established some kind of background as a traditional street magician or entertainer, you might want to consider allowing some synergy with Perform(Act) or something along those lines. For dice games, unless you're a Jedi it's really hard to cheat the throw of the dice. Loaded dice would be something a character would have to make or purchase, and it would be another opposed Sleight Of Hand check to swap the dice into the game. If the swap is successful, it goes undetected until the dice are closely examined (requiring the examiner to make a skill check based on how well-made the loaded dice are)--but keep in mind that a player who rolls the same winning number repeatedly is begging for suspicion. The easiest way to cheat at dice in D&D, frankly, is probably to have a spellcasting co-conspirator unobtrusively casting Telekinesis; it's up to you whether characters pull it off or how they can be foiled. There is one other way I can think of to cheat with dice: a character could miscall the roll, perhaps grabbing the dice back up before he can be called on it. This is a crude ploy, and involves opposed Bluff/Sense Motive instead of Sleight Of Hand. It's also probably inviting a beating. If you're not familiar with real-world gambling games, I'd suggest running down to the library and looking at Hoyle's Rules of Games. It's also easy to find rules for Poker variants and other card games online. Don't forget that any game can be the subject of a wager, and that many games (such as Backgammon) that are now rarely played for money actually started as wagering games. Hope that lengthy post is even vaguely helpful. Good luck.
mhr74 09-05-05, 05:49 PM	Ok so I have an old player of mine coming into my FR campagin with a new character. He made a 7/1 rogue/shadow dancer. He is a good RPer and know a little bit about rules (enough to know what he is doing but not enough to argue me on rules). And well on his visit to tavren he found a profiteble use for his 9 ranks in Sleight of hand skill (+13 total). And I'm not talking about pick-pocketing. He got into a game of dice. My ad-hoc ruling was that with a DC15 check he can rig the outcome of the dice to anything he wishes, in retrospect I might have had one bear to many in me to make such a ruling :blush: Now I know I can wigle my self out of this since it was only one game and all but I will have to make a sane (read: sober) rule about it for the future. Do any of you have any advice on this matter? I was thinking something along the lines of: Any kind of dice throwing-game: DC 15 SoH (Sleight of Hand) lets you to midify your roll by 1d4 DC 20 SoH lets you modifay your roll by a range of 1 to 6 DC 25 SoH lets you to set the resoult of the roll Cards: I have no idea, I'm not much of a card player (not even my brother will play with me aginst our younger sisters :blush: ) A seperate bluf check lets you not get cought If you can help me out with this I guranty you will all get a VirtRealCookie2000 in your PM inbox as soon as I make a fresh batch :) Is this a craps style game? 2d6? If so, it's a high DC (25-30+) to get a favorable result and/or avoid a negative result. In craps skill at throwing is not illegal, but if you set your dice (this is legal still) the "dealer" guy will try to break your concentration.
Gedrin 09-05-05, 07:05 PM	In most games of "chance" there are elements that can be predicted. All you have to do to win, in the long run, is to be able to take advantage of predictable elements. Craps is a good example. When throwing dice, it is possible, with a great deal of skil, knowledge and practice, to throw the dice in such a way that you can change the probabilities from something purely random, to something in your favor. The throw can be done in such a way that the randomness is reduced. It seems that modern casinos call these people "dice controllers", and it is a very difficult and delicate skill. Slight of Hand would be the skill involved, and the DC would be enormous. Card games that play with part of the hand face up, like blackjack, also lend themselves to the ability to "derandomize" the game. Advantage players can also change the game, for themeselves, to a game where their skill plays more of a factor in the game than simple chance. Whatever Gaming/Gambling skill would be important for this. Even without playing toward an advantage, a knowledgable player would know when to bet big, and when to bet conservatively. Identifying the golden hand is a tallent. Gaming/Gambling is again the important skill in play. In games such as poker, the human element can often be of equal importance to the cards that are held. Sense Motive and Bluff should give synergy bonuses to the Gaming/Gambling skill when it is important to measure the confidence of other players, or to portray your own confidence to encourage a fold. Of course, for the gambler it is equally important to get people to believe you have a weak hand on occasion, to encourage them to bet more against a very strong hand. When playing against other people, if you're playing a game where your skill gives you an advantage, and they're just playing a game of chance, you can then make the small changes that mean you win more than you loose.
Pyritefoolsgold 09-05-05, 07:20 PM	It's fairly easy to roll a d6 a specific way if you are very close to a flat surface, and throwing them only a few inches. (I, an untrained person, can get a six more often than not doing this) In any kind of gambling, a good gambler will probably insist that his opponent either throw his dice a foot or more, or roll them inside a box and hit the sides. Then one would have to not only make the dice land on a certain number, but make it slide. An expert could do this, but it becomes much harder, and much easier to spot. Also remind the player that if they can cheat, your NPCs can too, and some of them are better at it then you. When cheating, give everyone who'se paying attention a spot and sense motive check. Sense motive against bluff and spot against sleight of hand. Every sucess at a sense motive check grants that persons spot check a +2, which accumulates over the course of the game. Another bluff vs Sense motive may be required if actually caught at cheating, where the cheater tries to make it out as an accident. It's easier to do this in some situations than in others; "Oh, I always roll my dice this way" as opposed to "Wow, how did that card get there?" This way people become increasingly suspicius of a cheater as they beat his bluff check.
Old_One 09-07-05, 05:03 AM	Thank you all very much for all the replys. I always get more than I ask for when I post on these boards (and thatas why I love them :) ) So, using the dice handed to him and throwing it on a random surface (one that wouldn't be perfectly smooth) would be a DC 25 or greater in my game. So using my mentioned system: Any kind of dice throwing-game: DC 25 SoH (Sleight of Hand) lets you to midify your roll by 1d4 DC 35 SoH lets you modifay your roll by a range of 1 to 6 DC 45 SoH lets you to set the resoult of the roll This sounds good, no? And for the cards: roll d10, the result is how "good" the hand is for each player. Then, the players take turns placing bets. At ... <snip> ... the best hand wins. I like this, it is not compicates but lets my player use his skils and make a liitel profit on the side. revnk: It was of great help. I always enjoy it when DnD teches me something new about a totaly unrelated matter ;) Again thank you all, I'm sure come next fryday I'll have another bear-infulenced ruling to corect so see you all then :D
Venom of the Yuan Ti 09-07-05, 12:01 PM	Sorry I dont joke around with other peoples spellign normally (mine is very poor) but... in retrospect I might have had one bear to many in me to make such a ruling :blush: Try drinking somthing milder, like monkeys.
Schmendrick 09-07-05, 04:47 PM	Dice games: Sleight of Hand check (DC 25) to roll an extra die and choose the result (kind of like the Luck domain but better). For every additional 5 points you beat the DC by, you can roll an extra die. F'rinstance, in craps on a DC 25, the player rolls three dice and chooses which two are actually rolled in game. Making a DC 30 lets him roll four (and choose two). Card games (player is dealing): same as dice games, but double the "extra" chances (draw two extra cards on DC 25, four at 30, etc.) In all Sleight of Hand check cases, anyone who succeeds on a Spot check beyond the gambler's SoH catches him cheating. This assumes you're actually "playing" out the gambling. Otherwise, it's a Profession(gambler) check (with potential synergies from Bluff and Sense Motive, and maybe SoH if the player is cheating) opposed by all the other players' Prof(gambler) checks. At least, that's how I'd do it.
RQuinton 09-07-05, 05:06 PM	One other thing to consider with the checks, the longer the patrons lose, the more agitated they will get. You could have an increasing DC modifier to compensate for this. When the player starts his cheating, most may just consider it lucky (low DC check). But after awhile, people may get suspicious and make more of an effort to look at what he is doing. (start adding to the DC) He may be skilled enough to continue his charade for some time, but win enough and he will draw more attention to himself.
scott644 09-07-05, 05:25 PM	In a game where the "cheater" is doing a sleight of hands action, simply oppose it with spot. Where they're handling crowd manipulation (like playing poker for bluffing the other guy out), it's bluff opposed by sense motive. A simple win gives basic winnings, with every increment of 5 increasing it some amount. You don't have to present a complex system for this.
Sildatorak 09-07-05, 05:30 PM	I've found that the easiest way to deal with this is to have profession (gambler) recieve a synergy bonus from bluff and sense motive for card games or sleight of hand for dice games.
Jagnis 09-07-05, 05:35 PM	I'm not sure if this is for you but I know that the star-wars RPG has gamble as a skill and people make apposed gamble check, you gain money depending on how much you beat them... Of course star-wars deals in credits sooo.....
Schmendrick 09-07-05, 05:50 PM	I'm not sure if this is for you but I know that the star-wars RPG has gamble as a skill and people make apposed gamble check, you gain money depending on how much you beat them... Of course star-wars deals in credits sooo..... It's pretty easily adapted; no hard rules are given IIRC; basically you declare up front how much money you're going to wager for the night and the results of the checks determines what percentages of each players' wager goes to the winner. And FWIW, IIRC a Star Wars credit is roughly equal to a D&D silver piece.
Old_One 09-08-05, 05:39 AM	Try drinking somthing milder, like monkeys. Yaeh ... about that ... well i realy dont have any excuse there I just realy like that furry after taste ;) But I was thinkging about switching to chicken-shots
Abulafia 09-08-05, 11:52 AM	Let's take a moment to consider what, exactly, the character is trying to do. In a dice game, he's probably trying to make the dice come up with a specific total (or convince the other players that they did). If he's manipulating the dice, this should be a Sleight of Hand check against a given DC (use your judgment to set it), and he'll know whether he succeeded or not; fellow players should get a Spot check against the Sleight of Hand check to see it (he won't know if they succeeded or not until they pull knives). If he's just bluffing (roll, exclaim "yes! 18 again!", pick up dice quickly), it's a Bluff check opposed by either Spot or Sense Motive, and he won't know if he succeeded. Cheating in a card game involves manipulating the deal, hiding cards, marking cards, or spying on other players. Using the paragraph above as a guideline, take a moment to figure out exactly what the player is trying to do before deciding whether it's a simple skill check against a DC or an opposed check. Remember that pit bosses are going to have very high Spot and Sense Motive modifiers -- Alertness and Skill Focus (Spot) are both likely feats. An elf pit boss Expert 3 with Wis 14 and the above feats will have a +15 Spot modifier; ask your player if he's feeling lucky. ;)