Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kuronekogrrl 12-10-06, 11:57 PM	Hi all! I use a massive white board to draw out all my maps for my games and I use little magnetic counters with pictures of my PC's characters to indicate thier movement around the map. When I move a PC's counter usually I get another PC moaning that "his counter moved further than mine" because I don't move it EXACTLY the same length every time. I get close but not exactly right, short of me whipping out a measuring tape to plot out the movement. I don't normally use the grid system for my maps and PC movement but I thought I'd give it a go to see if it would fix this problem of un-fair counter movement. It just made the game crawl and no-one was having fun with it so I went back to the no-grid approach. So, what I'm trying to ask is if anyone has any ideas on how I can successfully map out my PC's movement using my magnet counters without my players either; a) *****ing that "his counter moved further than mine" or b) gloating that their counter moved the furthest even though all character have a speed of 30 ft.
Someone 12-11-06, 12:00 AM	Break out the tape measures. That, or convince him that its all an optical illusion, and that neither of the counters in fact moved further than the other. Though I am curious, just how did the grid slow things down? Were they micromanaging their moves or something?
Chrono Nexus 12-11-06, 12:06 AM	Make it clear to him that the counters only serve as a rough way for you to figure distances by just looking. The actual distance between the minis should be something you can track in your head. If that doesn't work, tell him he's being pissant and needs to find a new hobby, like architecture.
kuronekogrrl 12-11-06, 02:03 AM	Thanks for the replies! My players play Warhammer, which is a wargaming tabletop game that involves measuring your figurines distance in inches with measuring tapes. I think they slowed things down themselves by being stubborn and saying that DnD had turned into Warhammer and basically just rebelling against the grid system. *sigh* It's hard for me to figure out sometimes exactly how far to move a counter because my maps vary in size; from a narrow side-alley to huge caverns. How do I sort out how far to move the counters in relation to the scale of the map? If I hafta use a measuring tape I will, but then again when I draw my maps I don't use a scale, ie, 1:12 of real size, which might me problematic...
towerwrath 12-11-06, 02:18 AM	When i draw out dungeon maps I use graph paper wit a conversion of one square = five ft. And when the party gets in a fight I use a home made battle grid,one inch squares = five ft. with minis, the rest of the time I use a large white board. I'm not shure how warhammer works as I have never played, but I hope this helps some.
Salla 12-11-06, 02:20 AM	Tell them they can either use the grid, or stop complaining about your abstract character mini placement.
Nom 12-11-06, 03:41 AM	Tell them they can either use the grid, or stop complaining about your abstract character mini placement.My thoughts exactly. Once you're used to it, the grid works pretty well for melee-range stuff. The two main gotchas are the "every second diagonal counts 2" rule (basically, diagonals are 1.5, round down the total) and going around corners with larger creatures. If your players were mainly non-wargamers, I could understand a desire to avoid using the grid and be more freeform. Experienced wargamers should be able to do it almost without thinking. Compared to the nit-picky measuring that goes on in most gridless wargames, the grid is a fast, simple abstraction with few grey areas. Tell them to grow up. PS: Welcome to another Aussie.
ski309 12-11-06, 01:15 PM	Measure out appropriate lengths of string, and use those to measure how far the counters travel. They can't really ***** about that when the string stays the same length. If you use several different lengths of string, use different colored string for each.
Sadrx 12-11-06, 01:57 PM	I'd suggest trying one of the following: -Tell them the maps's not to scale. Maybe you'll get some leway from them with that. You'll still have to keep in mind distances, but you just eye-ball the fractions for maker placement. If it would take Player B two rounds to make it all the way around the large barn, at the end of round one, put him 1/2 the way around and just keep the distances in your head. On the otherhand, if he could make it all the way around, but would rather hang-back to charge next round, ask him the appropriate distance he'd like to stay back, and place his marker yourself. If that distance doesn't look appropriate, remind them, it's not to scale. The only downside of this is you'll have to answer question like, "how far away from the orcs is the corner of the building there?" A to-scale grid map answers that question for them, but nothing short of a grid map can prevent such questions. -In instances where they're merely moving relative to each other (perhaps approaching an enemy), ask them how they'd like to be situated. If everyone wants the fighter in front, everyone else is limited by his speed anyway.
Dirtysleevezen 12-11-06, 02:02 PM	Remind them who the DM is. ;)
icnivad 12-11-06, 02:45 PM	When I first started using a grid, I had the same complaint. That it slowed things down too much. Over time, however, you and your players will get better at quickly guaging how far a piece can move on a grid and movement will eventually happen just as quick as without a grid(and certiantly faster than with a tape measure). Anyone that plays chess knows that after a little while when moving the knight, you don't think, "over, up, up" you just see the spots where it cam move to. It also sounds like you are doing all of the movement for the players. I'd recommend having the players move their own pieces, which will a) let them feel more involved, and b) if it takes a long time, it's their own fault. Also, a good tip to using a grid quickly is to not think about your characters movements in terms of feet, but in terms of squares. So, a character that can move 30' can move 6 squares (5 feet apiece) on a grid. This makes those pesky diagonal movements significantly easier to figure out. I guess my bottom line recomendation is to go back to the grid and tough it out for a little bit. It'll become easier to use with a little practice.
kuronekogrrl 12-11-06, 05:51 PM	Um, yeah, I'm moving their magnetic counters on the white board at the moment. LOL Dirtysleevezen; "RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!!!" Nom; G'Day Mate! LOL I just had another thought; I'm the only DM at my gaming club that had a crack at using the grid system. All the other DM's are old school DnD-ers, ie, 1st ed and 2nd ed players, and they don't use the grid system, just like back in the old days. They draw maps on paper and players are indicated by dots on the map. How come their system works when they eyeball the PC's movement on paper? None of their players complain...must be because they previously resolved this issue I'm currently going thru! LOL
stargate525 12-11-06, 06:57 PM	Anyone that plays chess knows that after a little while when moving the rook, you don't think, "over, up, up" you just see the spots where it cam move to. I definitely understand where you're coming from, but you're thinking of the knight. The rook are the castle-looking pieces on the ends.
TheWerg 12-11-06, 07:19 PM	Someone mentioned the retarded diagonal movement for a square grid. Hexes fix that problem, as well as working well for finding spell radius and for certain size categories of monsters.
icnivad 12-11-06, 07:26 PM	I definitely understand where you're coming from, but you're thinking of the knight. The rook are the castle-looking pieces on the ends. aah.. Whoops. Yeah. You're right. Running on not enough sleep or caffeine.
Vorgoth 12-11-06, 11:46 PM	You could use string cut to the length of their movement increment. Just glue one end of it the center of their magnet and then use it to show exactly how far they can move on the fly.
Mandarbgrim 12-11-06, 11:59 PM	I had an issue with this in the past...with the grid slowing things down. People have to count out their moves..they mess it up..they realize they are going to get an AoO. They remove. Ect. I think it detracts from the game quite a bit. Comically...I have gotten into several "skirmishes" with my Co-DM over moving Monsters & NPC's without counting their spaces. I'm usually under the distance. I think I was over by 5ft once. The biggest issue came up when I moved a Knight 200 ft while on his horse & he demanded I count them out, because he claimed I had moved way farther than they could. It turns out I had only moved 190 ft when it could move 200 ft.
Mock26 12-12-06, 12:05 AM	Remind your players that you are NOT playing Warhammer, that you are playing D&D, and that one counter moved further than another has no bearing on the game what-so-ever, and ask them to leave the whining on the Warhammer table.
jagraham 12-12-06, 12:23 AM	Um, yeah, I'm moving their magnetic counters on the white board at the moment. LOL Dirtysleevezen; "RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!!!" Nom; G'Day Mate! LOL I just had another thought; I'm the only DM at my gaming club that had a crack at using the grid system. All the other DM's are old school DnD-ers, ie, 1st ed and 2nd ed players, and they don't use the grid system, just like back in the old days. They draw maps on paper and players are indicated by dots on the map. How come their system works when they eyeball the PC's movement on paper? None of their players complain...must be because they previously resolved this issue I'm currently going thru! LOL I retired my hex map I used with 2nd ed when I went to 3.5. While ugly, the grid ends all arguments, since all PHB examples use the grid. It makes 5' moves exact. It makes it clear if you can flank or not. For you, with the grid, the players can mave their own pieces without dispute also.
Doc225 12-12-06, 12:33 AM	Hexes may "solve the diagonal problem" but they impose many others. Unless you have DMGII, you'll have to figure out the areas of spells, space, and reach of monsters. Square rooms also become a problem, as does the fact that you can now be flanked by up to 6 creatures, as opposed to 8, so wading in and using great cleave won't take out as many, neither will whirlwind attack. 90 degree turns are also hard to figure out on hexes. I use squares in my game, and once you get used to it, diagonal movement isn't that bad. just remember that every even numbered diagonal space counts as 10 ft, or 2 spaces. the templates for spell areas are in the DMG, and the DMG comes with a map... what could be better than free? We are lucky enough to have a sheet of plexiglass to put over our mat. That makes it GREAT for dry erase markers. We have about 10 different colors, and we have enough extra space to write spell lists on the plexi, erasing the spells as we cast them. I recommed the setup, if you can arrange it. It took our group a little bit to get used to the grid...but it's almost second nature now. Graph paper is prett easy to find at an office store or a college bookstore. Draw your maps on that, with a 1 sguare=5ft scale, and it will convert to the grid mat seamlessly. If they already get the idea of moving the pieces around on the board, adding a grid should catch on after a few sessions.
aotrscommander 12-12-06, 11:30 AM	Remind your players that, unlike Warhammer, RPGs have a level of abstraction. If you use a standard grid or even look at the base size of your figures, you will note that they roughly take up a 5'x5' square. This, while a convenient measruring tool, is an abstraction. I couldn't fit more that one D&D character in my living room, for example in a 5'x5' space. Point this out to your players. I personally use a grid only as a measuring stick, and even then because I draw out more realistic terrain. Also remind your players that RPGs are not wargames; not even Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is Warhammer Fantasy Battle. They sound as if they need to switch from "I'm competing with him" syndrome. RPGs are not supposed to be competative but co-operative. Point out to them that the distance their figure moves is actually not an exact issue at all (since this isn't a micromanaged wargame, and really, proper wargamers shouldn't be worrying about micromanaging anyway1). So, I suggest in addition to admisitering a metaphorical (or even actual) slap upside the head with the DMG to your players, you start making sure you say you deal with movement in in game terms (feet, rather than spaces), and keep a mental track of distance yourself (or even right in down on the white board). So when they say "nyah, I moved further than you", you just say, "actually, no you didn't, you both moved 30' and you're still both 20' away. And, since you've been so busy concentrating on who moves fastest, rather than thinking about the battle, you didn't see that wizard in the back there casting Fireball, make your Reflex saves...." 1Cruel UK wargamers who have had to deal with Games Workshops rulesets over the decades might make the comment that Warhammer skates awfully close not to being a 'proper' wargame anyway...
Dirtysleevezen 12-12-06, 12:52 PM	LOL Dirtysleevezen; "RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!!!" Hear, hear! :D My group is trained to the point where disputes are resolved by the following sequence of events: 1. I pause for five seconds. 2. I arch an eyebrow in the direction of the disputee. 3. My next words are law. 4. Sentence after that must be as follows: "If you don't like it, bring it up with me after the session. Thass right, RESPEC' MY AUTHORITAH~" 5. Smile brightly. Took a while, though. :evillaugh
kuronekogrrl 12-14-06, 06:36 PM	Wow thanks for all the replies again! This is such an issue in my club it's not funny, I'm glad you guys could give me some ammunition to throw against my players the next time they complain about counter movement. :D There is a problem with Warhammer rules-mongering at my club, I just was surprised when it transferred over to DnD *sigh*. I had a newbie start off in my campaign and after his first session I suggested he have a casual read thru the PH, just so he had some understanding the game mechanics. Next session he was my biggest rules-monger, complaining about everything I did that was not "by the book". I created a monster!! I have a new question! LOL: Q: How do you get the grid on a white board? I was thinking of using a projector to project the grid onto the whiteboard but those things are damn expensive!
darcdante 12-14-06, 06:56 PM	Measure out appropriate lengths of string, and use those to measure how far the counters travel. They can't really ***** about that when the string stays the same length. If you use several different lengths of string, use different colored string for each. This is similar to what we do when playing Pirates. Instead of string, I'd recommend a small stick. You can cut it down to a 30 foot move, color it black up to a 20 foot move, and that way one stick will let you know how far to move some one 20 or 30 feet. You can then make another, longer stick, that goes up to 60 feet. Or you can just make 2 30 foot sticks and combine them, or whatever. It worked really well for Pirates.
Chrono Nexus 12-14-06, 07:01 PM	I have a new question! LOL: Q: How do you get the grid on a white board? I was thinking of using a projector to project the grid onto the whiteboard but those things are damn expensive! Projectors work alright. I guess you're having more problems with grid-free games than otherwise, so go for it.
Gort32 12-14-06, 09:55 PM	I just had another thought; I'm the only DM at my gaming club that had a crack at using the grid system. All the other DM's are old school DnD-ers, ie, 1st ed and 2nd ed players, and they don't use the grid system, just like back in the old days. They draw maps on paper and players are indicated by dots on the map. How come their system works when they eyeball the PC's movement on paper? None of their players complain...must be because they previously resolved this issue I'm currently going thru! LOL The idea with the 2nd ed and earlier is that there were no "firm" rules for battlefield combat. The secret is to be VERY descriptive as the DM. Describe the scene and don't even draw anything out for the players - if a player wants a visual have him draw it out himself for his own benefit given your descriptions, but that drawing is not the Law - only your descriptions matter. It takes a TON of getting used to, especially when deal with with a wargaming crowd, but that's exactly how those 2nd edition DMs handle it. Note that using a precise grid and/or measurements for your battles does NOT replace good descriptions! Good descriptions is what makes a good DM and pulls the players into the game. If you focus too much on the crunchy rules and leave out the descriptions than you really are just playing Warhammer with a more restrictive ruleset. Remember: On one extreme, you have wargamming. On the other extreme you have storytelling. D&D lies somewhere in the middle. If you try to push D&D too far into the crunchy rules you might as well play Warhammer, but if you neglect the structure of D&D you might as well write a novel instead. THe real trick is finding that proper balance of both...a balance that differs based on teh playgroup. The two orcs with leather armor and crossbows are close together up on the hill about 40ft in front of you and about 10ft up, crouched low behind some rocks about 15 feet to the left side of the path. Another orc with tattered robes lies prone about 10ft behind the leftmost crossbow orc, watching you intently. It is too dark to see if there are any other orcs laying in ambush. You are all in your marching order in a small clearing but have small ruined pillars scattered around you within 10ft in each direction. The path continues ahead and up the hill with rough brush on either side Steve, you rolled initiative!
Johnathan_Vagabond 12-14-06, 11:27 PM	I did the string thing for a group once, it worked pretty well. I had a 30ft, a 20ft , and a 10ft for each player. It was nice because we could bend it around obstacles, and if they had to go up a step or two I'd stack d6s (which was how we determined the original ft lengths.) Since everyone has a million d6s roughly the same size, it worked great. I'd recommend it, even if the group I play with now uses the grid. That, and I like string. I'm a kitten at heart, a big manly kitten at heart. Very manly... kitten. String.
ashcat_lt 12-14-06, 11:31 PM	If I am correct in my understanding of the OP's postings, I think most of the replies have ignored the fact that she said these are Warhammer players who are also old edition players, complaining that "D&D has become Warhammer" and also complaining that her representation of their movement is incorrect. I think that's kind of silly. The Warhammer wargame is an adaptation of the idea of Chainmail, from which D&D was spawned. And they complain that "our game" has gone back to roots from which it never diverged all that far? 1e gave movement and ranges in "inches," which is exactly equivalent to our "squares." For my part I played original D&D, 1e, and 2e AD&D. I used minis, counters, or random objects on grids or with tape measures as much as possible. I am quite happy with the way the 3.5 grid settles arguments that were rampant in older editions. Edit: I forgot my snide comment. Tell them: "We could just do away with the counters all together and play a White Wolf game."
ashcat_lt 12-14-06, 11:53 PM	Okay, i guess I've got more to say. First, I was not trying to imply that the other posters on this topic were wrong. They have all offered great suggestions. I was trying to avoid going back over what they said. But, okay, let me regurgitate just a little. Use the grid to facilitate the application of the rules, but don't ever neglect the "role-playing" aspects of the game. It's easy to do. "...4, 5, 6. And I roll a 15. + 6 = 21." "you hit." "12 dmg." "next." Now for another argument you can throw at your old edition curmudgeons. As much as we were all horrified when "Hasbro bought D&D," many of the folks who work at WoTC grew up, just like me, playing the old editions. I believe they are, in fact, doing everything they can to expand and improve our favorite game. And the connection with the largest name brand toy manufacturer in the world has brought us a spectacular line of cheap and readily accessible miniatures to use in both our "wargaming" and "role-playing" hobbies.
jeffepp 12-16-06, 12:44 PM	To grid a marker board cheaply, I would suggest that you pick one end, and measure and mark off on each side to the other end. Then use a strait edge to mark lines across from the marks on one side to the other. Then do the other direction. Just remember to start your measurements at the same end of the board, or your lines could be at an angle. And as for older eds, 2ed was technically "on the grid", but they didn't bother to put out the actual grid movement rules until PO:CnT.
Nom 12-18-06, 08:10 AM	How to get a grid on a white-board? Grids are designed for minis (or pseudo-minis) on a horizontal surface. Yeah, somewhat wargamey. If you're just sketching on a whiteboard, forgo the grid and fudge the AoO and similar mechanics. If you want a drawable grid, just laminate the one that came in the back of the DMG.
Kradlo 12-18-06, 09:30 AM	I'm an old time gamer (since 1977), and I remember the days when it was all abstract. There was no board or mat; everything your characters saw or did was described. While there's something to be said for the joys of verbal imagery, using a battle map with miniatures does wonders for dispelling confusion as to who is where. This can be difficult when the scale varies with every map you draw. This is one of the reasons that D&D 3.x now uses a standard 1" square for its calculations, as keeping one standard scale simplifies the game. If you don't have a grid, keeping track of movement can be a case of the "eyeball ruler." That's compounded if the scale varies with every encounter. Stick to one scale overall, and that will help some of your issues. You can make simple paper rulers marked with 1" increments for moving the minis. That might silence your whiners. A common method used is to get a vinyl battle mat, such as made by Chessex. They come with a 1" square grid, and use wet erase markers to draw the terrain. It's been used for decades to good effect, and I highly recommend them. They also make maps with hex grids, which I prefer for outdoor activity. Yep, hexes are a bit of a pain when you're designing squarish dungeons, so I use squares for that. Conveniently, Master Maze comes with its terrain already laid out in 1" squares; check 'em out at www.dwarvenforge.com. Master Maze is the Rolls Royce of gaming terrain.
Shan_TheBabau_Burke 12-19-06, 03:54 PM	If your players are the ones who cried until you banished the grid system in the first place, tell them, "Stop whining or it's back to the grid with you all!" Other than that, at the beginning of each round, let each player know how far he is from everything else, that way if he's mm's out of standard, he's still only gone his 30ft.
Mosyali 12-19-06, 06:14 PM	I actually have found that my four peices of graph paper tapped together work wonders. About three weeks ago, my friend tossed me a marker and some paper and told me to make a map. I tapped the long ends together and then the short ends together to make one giant sheet of paper. Then I counted out five squares on the graph and drew one Super Square. After we finished the project and reexplained the combat tactics to the party, our encounter time shortened from one hour to take out four orcs to a meer fifteen minuets. As for someone looking for giant graph paper, at most Wal-Marts in the school supply section is a poster-board called "Ghost-Line". It has predrawn squares that are very faint. If you mark over them, you have a fairly effective and large battle grid. As to room representation with a grid, we use pencils and lots of explaining. When we were in a room with two bridges and a river, we had four pencils laid out for the bridges and two peices of string running down the paper to show the course of the river. Since we had the agreed "one square = five feet", the size of the river was easily seen, same for how anyone could cross the river. I must say, with our graph-paper maps, our party movement and room looting has also gotten easier. When we come to compete for who loots a chest, we can even say that one person was not near enough to do it on his initiative. I run with a bunch of greedy butt-munches, so we keep initiative when ransacking a room.
kuronekogrrl 12-20-06, 12:56 AM	Well, my first DnD session will be starting next week so I'll absorb all the advice you guys have given me over the weekend and figure out what to do. I think I'll try the string measuring system first and see where I go from there. Big hug to all that posted! :) *hugs everyone* To those old skool DM's; I totally know what you mean! I played 2nd ed and the only maps that we ever saw were the ones the DM drew for himself to keep track of his players movements! No-one complained about if they were not moving "fast enough", you were just totally immersed in the story and thinking about what your next move was going to be. *sigh* Those were the days! Where did all these newbie rule-mongering PC's come from, I asks ya!
CroBob 12-20-06, 02:04 AM	That, or convince him that its all an optical illusion, and that neither of the counters in fact moved further than the other. Or that it's an optical illusion, neither moved at all!
Penchant_Conjurer 12-20-06, 03:59 AM	Magnetic white board is becoming popular. We are using it now. The best thing to end (reduce) arguments is use the official 1" squares. Get a blue fine tipped PERMANENT marker and a yardstick and mark out your grid on the board. Then you can freely use the dry erase to line out the map and wipe it clean while leaving the grid. If your players wine some more just bill them for a new white board.