Post/Author/DateTime	Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-17-04, 12:45 PM	That statement was just uttered by a PC of mine, and, well, it perturbed me just a little bit. The PrC in question is the Divine Disciple out of the Complete Divine. I'm not too overly concerned about its power or any balancing issues. Personally, I think going straight paladin would be more mechcanically sound, but that's just me. What bothered me is that he wants to know if the Strength domain is on his deity's list. He is playing a paladin so he has the general dogma of said deity, but I figured that since this deity is extremely old and obscure (only surfaces once every millenia or so) it would be lacking things like clerics. So his domains could wait a bit. I didn't have an issue with the PrC, he just had to roleplay his way into it (like everyone else). And as for the domains, I'd produce them later. Like, say, after I've studied for my FIVE midterms, or started my two term papers. Not even a session later he is bugging me about the stupid PrC and domains again. So I told him that I haven't had time to even look into it yet. I think he got a little impatient, because then he said "I'm taking the PrC whether you like or not!" This naturally annoyed me. I have talked to him about it in the interim. He doesn't intend to take it whether I like it or not, I think he was just talking **** when he said that. But now I have the question: do I let him take it anyways, or do I ban it out of principle? I don't want to be a spiteful evil DM, but I don't want to be walked over by my players either. Thanks.
Sucineri 10-17-04, 12:49 PM	Your player crossed the line. I would ban him from taking the PrC. Because it isn't HIS world your are DMing for, it is YOUR world he is playing in.
Mister Mayhem 10-17-04, 01:16 PM	Providing he meets all teh requirements, *including (especially!)* the roleplaying ones, I'd gracefully allow him to take the PRC. Then I'd stick him with a PRC related quest/responsability that will make his characters life hell for the next few sessions. :devil:
Escef 10-17-04, 01:16 PM	I'd say it was a stupid arguement to begin with. I also recommend against doing anything out of spite, which is the principle you'd be adhereing to if you banned the PrC. Just let him know that you had no intention of disallowing the PrC and that you hadn't gotten the information worked up for him because you have more pressing concerns. Also explain to him that you do not enjoy being spoken to in that manner. Suggest to him that he might also wish to re-evalute the importance of the game. Seems to me that one reason why he got so upset is that he takes the game just a tad too seriously.
trapspringer 10-17-04, 01:17 PM	Bull. He asked you for a simple ruling. You put it off for what sounds like at least 24 hours. You really didn't need to reference this, you could have just made it up. His agitation is not unreasonable, and while I would inform this person that if you got even the slightest vibe that he was doing something without telling you, or doing something you told him not to, you would kick him out of the group so fast you would have to mail him his hat.
Didge 10-17-04, 01:45 PM	Did you try explaining things to him about what was currently going on in the real world? Sometimes players expect DM's to have all the answers and think that since they are running the game, that they have endless amount of time to ponder over every little nitpicky thing that the player brings to him. They sometimes forget that you have other priorities, you know like life, that may take precident over the game (as shocking as that sounds). My guess is the player in question is taking fluff classes (so doesn't need to worry about mid-terms), or is one of those insanely smart/lucky folks that never have to worry about doing poorly on mid-terms, or isn't in college and/or never been so doesn't understand why you need to spend time studying. The point is understanding his perspective and taking that into consideration. Think of it from his point of view. You've been working on your character for some time and need some crucial information before the next session to make deciding factors. You ask the DM some questions regarding this and he says, "I need to think about it..." this is like telling someone who is extremely curious not to open a box. They want to, but they were told not to, so they wait, and wait, and eventually all that fustration has to go somewhere. I agree with Escef, it sounds like temper from the player who didn't understand your position. I would say allow it, but express you distress to your player about his attitude. Explain that you don't like being given ultimatums and that in the future that you will consider such a request phrased as he so elloquently put it as a means to not allow his character to have access to the class/PrC/etc. in your campaign. Understanding the whole issue is best for problems to ensure these kind of situations do not occur in the future.
Someone 10-17-04, 01:55 PM	Well, I guess the most basic response is "not in MY campaign you don't!" Seriously, you are the DM- if there is a race, class/ PrC, feat, weapon, or whatever that you don't think would fit in, you have every right to disallow it. Usually its better to point these out ahead of time, so that the players won't build twoards something they didn't know isn't allowed. As for the PrC in question- I couldn't find the "divine disciple" in the Complete Divine... Did you mean a different name in CD, or the PrC from a different book?
Sucineri 10-17-04, 02:49 PM	You know what..I agree partly with some of the other arguments here but there is a simple rule here. You NEVER DEMAND ANYTHING of your DM, and you NEVER go against the DM's wishes. If someone says "I don't care if you are the DM, these are my rules and we are playing this way" you ATLEAST do something to punish the guy, unless it was said in a joking way..which doesn't seem to be the case here. The reason I am so crazy about this is because I tried to DM a game for my former group from which I was a player..and they began from the first second, to control my game..telling ME what I could or couldn't decide for them. I don't play with them at all anymore..hell, I don't even talk to any of them at all anymore.
fatal error 10-17-04, 02:53 PM	You should not ban the class. It looks like the only problem you have is you haven't solidified the deity he is following. What are these 'roleplaying' requiements? Depending on what they are I suggest you try and work them into the campaign as it's never nice to say "You have to travel to the great mountains and find the golden wyrm" but then never have it worked into the campaign so he has to leave the group and such.
Fixxxer 10-17-04, 05:58 PM	Stick with your original plan and don't let him take levels until you've had time to deal with the issues you think need dealt with. If he continues to press the issue, tell him that you'd be more than happy to set some time aside from your busy schedule to deal with the issues and make him happy. Suggest whatever time next week that you would normally have game. Do this in front of the other players. I bet they make him shut his mouth about it. As a side note, there's absolutely [b]no]/b] way I would ever let one of my players (or anyone else, for that matter) get away with disrespecting me like that. I wouldn't suggest that you do anything horribly spiteful (such as tell him you're disallowing the PrC altogether because he was being an ass about it), but I personally would say or do something to put him in his place.
Shard of Suzail 10-17-04, 06:21 PM	No player should speak to you in that way. I wouldnt allow the prestige class.
jagggar 10-17-04, 06:28 PM	I have talked to him about it in the interim. He doesn't intend to take it whether I like it or not, I think he was just talking **** when he said that. But now I have the question: do I let him take it anyways, or do I ban it out of principle? I don't want to be a spiteful evil DM, but I don't want to be walked over by my players either. Thanks.If you've talked it out and it was a heat of the moment thing that was said, then you could become known as a spiteful DM if you deny him on "principle." Talk to him again, make sure he doesn't really mean it and it was just everyone being stressed (he's got midterms too, right?) then there shouldn't be any hard feelings.
Lordofthebean 10-17-04, 06:46 PM	Because it isn't HIS world your are DMing for, it is YOUR world he is playing in. BS, they're both wrong. If the PC didn't RP, the world wouldn't be worth playing in. If the DM didn't put time into it, the PCs wouldn't have fun. Both DM and PCs make the world, not one or the other. No player should speak to you in that way. I wouldnt allow the prestige class. NEVER do anything in game because of the way somebody "speaks to you," that's just unfair. The DM, unlike the PCs, is not actually in the game. The NPCs can respond to overt(or covert) provocation from the PCs, but the DM shouldn't use them to act out his feelings. If you have a reason to disallow the prestige class, than explain it. Since you are evidently fine with the PrC, tell your player that you aren't planning on running campaigns for a living, and that school always takes priority. Personally would say or do something to put him in his place. That's fine, but don't do it in game. The comment was made out of game (unless PCs refer to their professions as "classes"), so the response should be too.
Shard of Suzail 10-17-04, 07:02 PM	The GM must maintain a position of authority and respect, he has no choice on this matter now, lordofthebean but to refuse the prestige class. Its not a game of monopoly here, the roleplay game is completetly visualised and run through a gm's imagination and voice. If someone says such a thing they are effectively saying "I can control you and what you say". There are consequences to everything and this player must accept that he isnt going to see that prestige class in the game. He wasnt even before he said that and he certainly isnt now. If he caves in on this, then another player will feel that, if he resorts to similar bullying tactics, that the gm will likewise back down and "sort things out in a friendly way". There is no roleplay game, there are just a handful of people sitting round a table speaking. If one of those people starts bullying one of the others, then he suffers the consequences for that. Its not a matter of in and out of game events. I have seen a lot of GM's geting treated in a sickening manner by their players. While d20 as a system has empowered players in a good way, too many are starting to see the gm as a slot machine to do with as they please.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-17-04, 07:03 PM	Thankx all for the help. I will give him a stern warning about it. The problem with him is two fold; 1) its hard to tell when he's seriouse and when he's not, and 2) he has real trouble discerning the difference between being repramanded for a bad choice and when he is being verbally assulted. he tends to take any from of critism or differences of opinion personally. I'm not sure why, and normally it he isn't a dolt about it, but every now and a agian something like this comes up. But I'll talk more about it later my players are about to show up. Cheers! No he doesn't have mid-terms. Not in university.
Law S 10-17-04, 07:30 PM	The GM must maintain a position of authority and respect, he has no choice on this matter now, lordofthebean but to refuse the prestige class. Its not a game of monopoly here, the roleplay game is completetly visualised and run through a gm's imagination and voice. If someone says such a thing they are effectively saying "I can control you and what you say". That is a point of pride, and therefore such reasoning is incorrect. If the blasted boards had posted what I said previously, then I covered this matter. I'll summarize the points, however. If the PrC would otherwise be allowed to any player that fit the qualifications, then you cannot arbitrarily remove the option from the PC because he upset you. He was out of line, certainly, but that should be handled in an external matter, such as a discussion or even removal of the player in question. There are many reasons you can't just harm a PC for the player's actions, primary among them being the fourth wall issue. If you just do it and can't justify it beyond "the player was out of line", something is sorely wrong. You can create an in-game reason (the most obvious being that not all prestige classes are available because sects teaching them do not exist in the world), but it has to make more sense than "because you hurt my feelings". The GM must maintain a position of authority and respect, he has no choice on this matter now, lordofthebean but to refuse the prestige class. This is an abuse of power. You do not maintain authority by lording your 'power' over the players, you do it by being a completely impartial referee. You disregard what the player said, insofar as punishing the PC for it, because it happened externally to the game. If the PC had started causing trouble in-game, then it would be acceptable to give appropriate repercussions, but you're supposed to be a completely impartial party. Simply stated, if you would allow any other PC to take the prestige class upon meeting the requirements, you have no choice but to do the same for him. Well, you don't have to, but not doing so will undermine your respectability and credibility as a worthwhile DM. Otherwise, when's the next time you'll let your feelings affect the game? Will you make every piece of treasure the offending PC finds be worth only a few coppers? That would be extreme, but same in principle. Though, there is one correct implication; if you would allow the class, be absolutely clear it has nothing to do with the player's demands, and make a point of clarifying you do it only because your impartiality will not let you potentially punish all of the players out of turn for his foolish behaviour, but that if he continues to persist you may have to reconsider his position at your table. This is the way to maintain authority and respect; if you let your feelings motivate the punishment beyond the merits of the transgression, then the other players would be right not to play with you any further.
Sucineri 10-17-04, 08:19 PM	Law S / Lordofthebean - So you are basically saying that if a player did the same thing to you, you would just cave and let them play how they want to in your world no matter what? I understand the part about the game being a shared control issue between DM and PC, but demanding something such as "I don't care what you say, I am right" from a player needs to be dealt with, you can't just let them go ahead with what they said. Because if the DM later looked at the PrC and figured it was broken or shouldn't be allowed then said it AFTER the PrC was already placed, then the player would be even MORE angry because of you stealing his PrC away. I would say "I haven't gotten around to it yet" and if the player says "Well, then I am taking it."..I would reply with "That's fine..but I hope you have an extra character sheet handy."
Law S 10-17-04, 08:34 PM	Law S / Lordofthebean - So you are basically saying that if a player did the same thing to you, you would just cave and let them play how they want to in your world no matter what? No. Either you did not read my reply, did not understand it, or wish to twist it for the sake of argument. I'll presume the second. The point is you cannot deny the PrC if any other player would be allowed to take it. I never said that you cannot deny the PrC if it wouldn't work in the campaign. It is interesting you use the word 'cave'; you make it sound as if allowance would be a concession of authority. If someone's "authority" is reliant on being the alpha gamer at the table, then there are problems there much worse than a player's impatient demand. Most PrCs and especially their abundance are horrible anyway; it's perfectly reasonable not to allow any of them. In fact, they're kind of illogical... A good DM has to manufacture a reason for them to exist and force the organization into their campaign world. PrCs are best suited as examples of what you could do with them, and more time should be devoted to creating them, so the DM can create organizations and make PrCs reflective of them, not the other way around. If this PrC doesn't fit the world, then deny its allowance, or possibly allow the character to be the founder. However, I would probably never allow a prestige class to be founded by anyone under 10th level (not including the PrC 1), and perhaps not even until 12th or higher. It's a difficult thing to found an order... Most of the time, someone creates the foundations and the disciples of later generations build on that (i.e., the founder might not get beyond PrC 5, spending so much thought and discipline on simply figuring out how to reach that point, while future members have a shortcut to the understanding and can start the PrC much earlier, allowing them to develop farther than those preceding them).
Sucineri 10-17-04, 08:40 PM	Yes, by MY argument was dealing with the player just slapping the PrC on without authority..and the DM in question said that he hasn't looked at it. So that doesn't mean that he wouldn't just let this player use the PrC..he doesn't know anything about the PrC in the first place. You cannot just put a PrC on your character unless the DM has read up on the PrC, and it is the DM's choice whether or not a PrC is allowed to be applied..so just slapping it on without consent is wrong no matter who the player is.
Law S 10-17-04, 08:55 PM	Yes, by MY argument was dealing with the player just slapping the PrC on without authority..and the DM in question said that he hasn't looked at it. So that doesn't mean that he wouldn't just let this player use the PrC..he doesn't know anything about the PrC in the first place. You cannot just put a PrC on your character unless the DM has read up on the PrC, and it is the DM's choice whether or not a PrC is allowed to be applied..so just slapping it on without consent is wrong no matter who the player is. Such an argument is nonsensical as it is not related to the merits of the issue at hand. The class level, according to the poster, has yet to be assigned. The character has done nothing more than puff out his chest and make a lot of bluster without lending substance to his threat. Furthermore, a player cannot simply "slap on a prestige class" without the DM's acceptance and continue playing. If your theoretical situation were to occur, the DM would immediately suspend the session and give a warning to the player that pressing the issue will be construed as an intentional attempt to be disruptive, and only then will the appropriate repercussions be given. If he persists and tries to use PrC-related abilities at all, then he is disruptive and it is a separate issue. There is a reason a proper DM keeps copies of all PC record sheets; none of this can sneak in "under the radar" without DM incompetence.
Lord_Gema 10-17-04, 09:09 PM	You just should have picked some domains it was a made up god right? You didn't give him any when you created him so gamewise what difference does it make? It would have taken 3 mins at the most. Just take a look at the deities compare his outlook to others the paladin was following this god right you must have had a concept of what he was a god of.I would be annoyed also if given a lame reason like that.If you didn't like the class fine but to punish a player because your homebrew god was "not fully thought out" come on!!!!!!I have five midterms whatever in the time it took you to type this problem on the message board you could have been done.
Lordofthebean 10-18-04, 12:05 AM	Law S / Lordofthebean - So you are basically saying that if a player did the same thing to you, you would just cave and let them play how they want to in your world no matter what? I wouldn't exactly phrase it that way. If you are asking whether I would allow him to take the PrC after making that comment, the answer is an absolute yes. You reserve the right to deny the PrC based on in-game mechanics, but not simply because of the actions of the player. I don't let the players dictate everything about the campaign. In this case, however, the matter is whether to deny a class to the PC on the sole basis of a sentence. If other DMs are so high and mighty that they are offended to the point of changing their campaign, well, I'm glad I don't play with them. I'd be worried about accidently wounding their pride, to the vast detriment of my 6th level half-elf ranger who, oh no, just got hit with a power word, kill followed by a trap the soul.
green_yawgmoth 10-18-04, 12:25 AM	I'd double all of the requirements for the PrC, followed by a quest to prove himself. At the end of the quest, he gets his forst level of the PrC when he has enough xp to do so. Possibly make him sacrifice his most prized posession to his deity too. Rule 0.5: Don't talk **** to the DM. :cool: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
Count Arioch the 28th 10-18-04, 12:30 AM	If a player said "I'm taking this PrC whether you like it or not!", I'd just laugh at him. As DM, I have final say about what PrCs do and don't exist in my world. If they insist on ebing something I don't have in my world, tough nuggets.
wonlee76 10-18-04, 12:33 AM	Let him have the prestige class since it sounds like you would've allowed it with the RP requirements. Not sure why domains are important but if the prestige class gives the character domains, choose 2 "weak" domains for his god that he would not find too useful overall. Since he asked for whether the strength domain is included, say no and pick other domains. ;) War Domain with a favored weapon of daggers is a nice start.
Crossover-Chronicler 10-18-04, 12:55 AM	Personally, I'd allow the player to take the class, simply because I'm permissive that way and I have other ways of dealing with whiny players. But that doesn't mean I'd be gracious about it. Heat of the moment or no, I'd likely have one of the following reactions: "Fine. Take the class. But you have to convert to a deity whose Domains I've already worked out." "Screw with me and your Domain options will be Chaos, Death, and Healing." "Back off. You'll hear on the Domain issue when I have time to work on it and not before." "You do that. But you can't cast spells 'til you select a Domain, and you can't select a Domain until I give you a list of options." And after that outburst, I'd be less inclined to add Strength to the deity's list. But I'd still allow the class. After all, I'd still see no valid reason for banning it, and I'm comfortable enough in my position as DM that I don't need to prove my power. I find that permissiveness is actually one of my greatest strengths as a DM, compared to other DMs I know.
General Dorsey 10-18-04, 01:28 AM	I have to agree with Fixxxer, Lordofthebean, and Law S. You should do what you had originally intended. Look it over when you get the time. Make sure you have the time to be truly fair to the player. Ensure that the prestige class fits the game and that you have chosen appropriate domains. Making a snap decision may not work out as well as hoped. I think if you turned this into a power stuggle, you may win the battle, but you could end up losing in the end. The game is about playing with friends. This isn't a win/lose type game like Monopoly. I think that if you were to stick to your original plan, then you would solidify your authority. This would show that you are consistent, fair, and reasonable. You don't make snap decisions. You don't let your emotions cloud your judgement of the situation. I think he may respect you more for it. I also think it was a good idea to vent your frustration out here on the boards before deciding what to do with the prestige class. It allows you to get the emotion out of the way so that you can be more focused on what you need to do (like studying and working on the campaign).
Someone 10-18-04, 01:35 AM	But that still leaves a few sticking points: 1.) Paladins don't get domains, domain powers, or domain spells. They don't even have to devote themselves to a deity by name. Just the principles of good and law. 2.) As I said before- there is no PrC by the name "divine disciple" in the Complte Divine book. Clarifiaction would be appreciated. 3.) What are the requirements for the PrC anyway? And how does the player know that their character qualifies for it? After all, it sounds like you haven't quite finalized what the requirements are, role-playing wise.
GilaMonster 10-18-04, 02:29 AM	But that still leaves a few sticking points: 1.) Paladins don't get domains, domain powers, or domain spells. They don't even have to devote themselves to a deity by name. Just the principles of good and law. CD has rules for non-clerics gaining domain powers, can't recall them off hand. 2.) As I said before- there is no PrC by the name "divine disciple" in the Complte Divine book. Clarifiaction would be appreciated. Forgotten realms campaign setting, revised in Player's guide to Faerun 3.) What are the requirements for the PrC anyway? And how does the player know that their character qualifies for it? After all, it sounds like you haven't quite finalized what the requirements are, role-playing wise. Ranks in diplomacy, ranks in knowledge(religion) ability to cast 4th level divine spells, must have had personal contact with your deity or an outsider servant of your deity. (I think that's how it's worded) It's not an overly powerful class, and it's only 5 lvls. My cleric's going for that in a couple of levels.
fatal error 10-18-04, 02:34 AM	I'm almost positive he means divine crusader, who gains spell levels very quickly, but can only choose from the one domain list so his selection is very limited but you will end up getting 9th level spells with a fighter base.
Cold Napalm 10-18-04, 02:39 AM	Two points. 1) The PrC. If you look at it and say umm not for my world...then the player wishes be damned he's not taking it. 2) If you do look it over and allow it in your game because it'll fit, then he's taking wither you like his character to or not. You do not as a DM play favorites...nor do you play whatever the opposite of favorites is hehe. Very much pure and simple. If you wanna be spiteful, just don't add the strength domain, that's all (unless the god is the god of strength or something...in which case meh). I'd not recomend that either. Don't be worried about players pushing you around...it's a negotiation between players and DM...not a tyranny.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-18-04, 02:42 PM	Sorry the PrC in question is the divine crusader. How this worked was i talked to the player calmly and alone, when the are groups of poeple he seems to think he has something to prove, and told him that i have trouble twelling the difference when he is joking and not. After witch he did some quick RP and earned the PrC. I gave a hurried list of domains to choose from, with the understand that this is subject to change. Basically this list is hurried and i may change it, be for warned. Things seem to have settled out for now, well except for what else has happened. But thats another post.
Twisted Puppy 10-18-04, 05:58 PM	I think the OP is taking the high road with his decision to warn the player about such outbursts, and letting have the PrC. Lord Gema, I don't know about you, but I've found that making snap decisions on classes I haven't read over - taking the word of a good friend, I might add - is asking for trouble. There will always be that one special ability or class feature that they forgot to mention that screws you up in one way or another. I generally like to put more than "3 minutes" of thought into allowing a PrC - especially one I'm not familiar with all the details on. I'd also be prepping for my midterms rather than worrying about his PrC. I know it is a bad habit, but I tend to have a negative reaction to any ultimatum. If a player tells me I "must" do something, or can't wait for me to go over a PrC and give some thought to the ramifications, then the answer is going to be "No".
Cold Napalm 10-18-04, 06:46 PM	Actually I and many other DM I know have a rule of I, personally) MUST own the book before you can use anything in it. And since I like to fiddle with special abilities, it's usually not so bad. Then again, if they break a character, I can always break an NPC. My players don't make any characters anywhere near CO board stuff anymore. Something about having a "broken" character die the first round (an he made all his saves too)...and the ECL was 2 lower hehe.
kliate 10-18-04, 08:58 PM	If he insists on taking the PrC, then do the following: 1. If you don't already have a copy of his character sheet, require one. 2. Upon leveling up, if he absolutely insists on taking the Prestige class that you have explicitly denied (assuming it is, in fact, explicitly denied) simply issue the disclaimer "I said no. You can write whatever you want on your character sheet, but it doesn't mean a thing if I don't approve it - especially in the case of a prestige class." <or paraphrase, as one normally would> 3. If the player records the level and benefits of the prestige class, level up your copy of his character sheet in whatever class he would have normally taken, in your most reasonable opinion, had he not leveled in the prestige class. 4. When he tries to use a prestige class granted ability in-game, inform him "That doesn't work, but you can <insert relevant new class ability here>" 5. If the player tries argue, repeat the disclaimer from 2. 6. If the player cannot handle this, then the individual clearly lacks the maturity to continue in your group. Suggest an alternate activity as appropriate. Addendum: If none of the above works, then the character has clearly broken some of the most fundamental laws of your world. Send out an army of inevitables, adding new, improved models as needed. When this destroys your game, ask the group "So, was that worth it?" If all parties enjoyed fighting/dying to the swarm of inevitables, consider this in your next campaign.
General Dorsey 10-19-04, 12:19 AM	On_the_wings_of_TPK, I think you made the right choice. The situation needed to be handled out of the game, and it sounds like it worked out.
Mythmere 10-19-04, 05:59 PM	BS, they're both wrong. If the PC didn't RP, the world wouldn't be worth playing in. If the DM didn't put time into it, the PCs wouldn't have fun. Both DM and PCs make the world, not one or the other. NEVER do anything in game because of the way somebody "speaks to you," that's just unfair. The DM, unlike the PCs, is not actually in the game. The NPCs can respond to overt(or covert) provocation from the PCs, but the DM shouldn't use them to act out his feelings. If you have a reason to disallow the prestige class, than explain it. Since you are evidently fine with the PrC, tell your player that you aren't planning on running campaigns for a living, and that school always takes priority. That's fine, but don't do it in game. The comment was made out of game (unless PCs refer to their professions as "classes"), so the response should be too. I don't often "ditto" other people's posts, but LordoftheBean hits the nail on the head, here. I couldn't improve on what he's got to say.
Lord_Gema 10-20-04, 08:42 PM	I was just saying he didn't have a problem with the PRC it was the fact his god's domains were unknown thats what set the player off.So if he would have followed a god found in a book instead of the homebrew he'd be fine.The DM must have described the god otherwise how would have he become a paladin of said god.True the player should roleplay into it but why waste your time on that if the DM picks domains the pc doesn't want to use.The DM can look at other gods and their domains judge them and then pick some for the players god it's not that time consuming.You could have the player come a little earlier or after the game ends go over the domains. Then everyone is happy and no whinning.
charred 10-21-04, 02:08 PM	This is what happens when you try a half***ed homebrew deity. Don't take it as a shot at you, because I did the same thing, and lord, did it cause me stress. I think you are already on the right track as far as what to do about the comment. There has been a discussion of whose world it really is here, and I think that where you stand on that issue will be your answer. You do most of the work to put everything together, and you need to enjoy the game as much as the players. You need the players as much as they need you- otherwise you would be sitting at an empty table talking to yourself. Some DMs see their place as a judge or neutral referee, while others want more of a degree of "creative control" over their world- like a director (or as a disgruntled player called it, like an overbearing stage-mom). DMs are as imbedded in their ways here as in the hack-slash/heavy RP debate. They are just different ways to play the game, and one is not better than the other. YOU may LIKE one more than the other, but that does not make it better. It sounds like you are more concerned with whether the Prc would fit in with your "world." Keep in mind that worlds are big places with a lot going on, but I geuss that is up to you too. If you think that everyone will enjoy themselves more with the more flexible DMing approach, do it. If you think that keeping the tone of the world and story in tact (assuming that there really is no room for the PrC in your world) will do more for the game from the players' and your standpoint, do that. Remember, you are running a game, not trying to become the next Joe Jackson. (He used to beat his kids if they didn't perform well enough, or so I have heard)
LordofIllusions 10-21-04, 03:04 PM	That statement was just uttered by a PC of mine, and, well, it perturbed me just a little bit. The PrC in question is the Divine Disciple out of the Complete Divine. I'm not too overly concerned about its power or any balancing issues. Personally, I think going straight paladin would be more mechcanically sound, but that's just me. What bothered me is that he wants to know if the Strength domain is on his deity's list. He is playing a paladin so he has the general dogma of said deity, but I figured that since this deity is extremely old and obscure (only surfaces once every millenia or so) it would be lacking things like clerics. So his domains could wait a bit. I didn't have an issue with the PrC, he just had to roleplay his way into it (like everyone else). And as for the domains, I'd produce them later. Like, say, after I've studied for my FIVE midterms, or started my two term papers. Not even a session later he is bugging me about the stupid PrC and domains again. So I told him that I haven't had time to even look into it yet. I think he got a little impatient, because then he said "I'm taking the PrC whether you like or not!" This naturally annoyed me. I have talked to him about it in the interim. He doesn't intend to take it whether I like it or not, I think he was just talking **** when he said that. But now I have the question: do I let him take it anyways, or do I ban it out of principle? I don't want to be a spiteful evil DM, but I don't want to be walked over by my players either. Thanks. If you would normally allow the PrC in the campaign, and he meets the role playing requirements, let him take it(Now if you normally would not allow it then he is just beat.). However talk to him outside of the session and let him know he is going to have to control his temper if he wishes to remain in your group. Basically let him know that he has to carry himself like an adult in your campaigns(By not throwing tantrums like a kid.), if he has something slick to say back to you then kick him out of the game since it will only get uglier if you let him stay in the game. ~~~