Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord_Psathus 07-14-06, 12:52 PM	I have been DMing for quite some time and my players have always played within the rules. However, when one of my player's announced he stabbed the boss of a sprawling dungeon in the skull. I worked it like a sunder because I'm not sure how it would work. He rolled a 19 and I rolled a 1. I announced he cut off the bosses' head off. I was wondering if there are any specific rules for instant-kills or if they are not allowed in D&D by standard rules.
Kapalen 07-14-06, 12:56 PM	BAck in the day, 2e, you could make a called shot at -4 to hit. In the current rules there is no such thing.
nome. 07-14-06, 12:56 PM	Not allowed in D&D by the standard rules. Characters are already doing their best to kill the enemy every time they swing; every attack is a "called shot at a vital area." If they successfuly hit a vital area, that's a critical hit -- which there are already rules for. There is also an optional "instant kill" rule in the DMG, to the effect that a natural 20 to confirm a critical is a threat for an instant kill, causing another roll. If that further confirmation hits the target's AC, the target is killed outright. However, the DMG also recommends against it's use.. Called shots in 3.x are superfluous, unecessary and, as you found, create huge headaches unless you make special rules for them.
anarco_rata 07-14-06, 01:20 PM	I completely agree with nome. He can't just aim to the head and expect to hit the oponent there... Consider an attack not as a single swing, but as a series of maneuvers that end in one hit (or none if he fails). So, a normal attack would be the fighter trying to hit the enemy's neck, fail, and then use the opening in the enemy's defense to land a blow in his rib. That would be just a normal attak that hited the enemy... As nome. says, if it's a critical, then the first swing to the neck actually hit, and the enemy starts to bleed from a potentially mortal wound. If there where called shots in d&d, then EVERY battle would contain hits that only went to the enemy's head. Fighters would probably calculate their to hit bonus with the penalty added, because they default hit would be that one. Not to mention that the players would be utterly screwed.
zae 07-14-06, 01:22 PM	Possible called shots: *Any attack (as mentioned above) - it's not as though you're just swinging a sword at random and it happens to cut them in half. Any damage is assumed to be dealt to a somewhat vital area. *A critical hit (as mentioned above) - this is when they manage to really hit vitals. Also works because oozes are immune to it. *Power Attack: Penalty to hit = bonus for damage. Sounds like most "called shot" systems. *If you see HP as energy and luck that slowly run out as people meet your AC (narrowly avoiding it by leaping out of the way) and the actual killing blow being the only one to actually *hit*, then that's a definite decapitation/skewering.
metamind 07-14-06, 01:57 PM	Dnd would be rather boring if entire campaigns revolved around the players saying "I cut its head off". -Lord Metamind
Sulaco 07-14-06, 02:08 PM	BAck in the day, 2e, you could make a called shot at -4 to hit. In the current rules there is no such thing. And could be used to do things like cut a rope or shoot and item out of someone's hands. Called shots did not, in the RAW, target specific body areas.
Witch 07-14-06, 02:12 PM	This is not possible by the RAW. Nor should it be - except in special situations, which are not to be determined on beforehand.
Kresalak 07-14-06, 02:18 PM	Called Shots to lethal areas are a bad idea. However, you could go the route of NWN, and offer a feat that allows you to make called shots to areas that you wouldn't usually target (legs, hands), and if they suceed (penalty to attack and damage) the opponent takes some sort of penalty (hands=-1 or 2 to attack, legs reduced speed, etc.)
red_scare87 07-14-06, 02:21 PM	I actually have a bad experience with called shots in 3.x. Actually, it was in a d20 Modern game, but it would fit for any game using the d20 system. Basically the DM arbitrarily set penalties to attack for called shots. For insta-kills (shots to the head or heart) he ruled that it was a -8 penalty to attack. This rule has been abused so much it's disgusting. Basically, it makes characters, like mages, with low ACs useless. If a character has an AC of less than 15, we might as well take the -8 and kill them on the first hit. It also makes it so you can't make up for a low AC with a lot of HP. Anyway, it's just a really bad idea.
Cifer 07-14-06, 02:40 PM	As the others have already explained, there is no such thing as an "uncalled shot". As soon as characters get away from the first levels, they will stop just swinging their weapons vaguely in the direction of the enemy and start feinting (yeah, not that much if they don't have the feat, but making sure your opponent doesn't know where your blade will be in the next two seconds probably is a part of just about every combat technique there is), slashing at necks, threatening and dodging. That's what "becoming a good fighter" is all about. To be honest, I've always wondered about the increased difficulty of called shots: If targeteting his torso is an attack +0 while an attack +8 means I target his heart, why do I completely miss if I don't hit the heart instead of hitting the torso?
GMforPowergamers 07-14-06, 03:25 PM	I ran a game useing the Vitality and WOund points instead of hit points rules from unearther arcana. well it was 3.0 and I used star wars rules for it, but close enough. We deceded that you could do called shots at -10 to go strait to wounds. Well we had a gun slinger that did called shot head every shot, and a Samri that did called shot throat/decapatate. every round, and just worked the neg 10 into there attack. It ment most of the time they weren't hitting, then at level 10 the samari worked around this with Imp crit, Keen, lamanated, keen blade katana with assasin senses cast on him. for a crit range of 11+, then he took a prestige class that let him lower it to 8+ by 5th level and 6+ by 10th. and since Crit go direct to wounds anyway... the gun slinger finaly caought back up at 16th level when he made his bullets brillant energy. Yea, the last dungeon they went through the two of them took turns going inot a room, killing everything, then let the other one take the next door. Called shots bad idea, outsid sources for stuff Bad idea, Keen and other crit stuff stacking BAD IDEA
wrecan 07-14-06, 04:30 PM	Quick and Dirty Called Shots Called shot to the hand: disarm Called shot to the legs: trip Called shot to an item: sunder Called shot to vital area: critical/sneak attack You want to get better at called shots? Get improved disarm, improved trip, improved sunder, improved critical or power attack.
Thiez 07-14-06, 04:32 PM	Strange thing about "you're always doing the best you can to damage the opponent" is that you don't really become better at dealing damage... alright, you can get feats. Boosting strength and gettings better equipment doesn't count. A level 20 fighter (without power attack) damages a commoner about as much as a level 1 fighter if they have the same strength and use the same mundane dagger. The level 20 fighter just hits more often.
Tembo 07-14-06, 05:47 PM	Called shots are a bad idea (particularly in DND). The best a player can do is take feats (as wrecan posted). The semantics of where hits actually strike an opponent is the part of the game where the DM gets to shine. If, on a hit, an opponent goes down don't just say, "He goes down." Add some description to the waylaying of a dastardly and cunning opponent by giving a vivid description, "You heft your greatsword above your head, arms covered in sweat and blood from the fervored pitch of battle. With all of your remaining strength and rage, you swipe at a downward angle with relentless intenstiy, cleanly removing the head of your nemesis." (Be as graphic as you or your players like- spraying blood, death screams, etc.) Using descriptions like these (and allowing PCs to strike vital areas) will placate most gamers and make them feel they don't need to "declare a head shot" (or wherever) because you (as a DM) are allowing for that to happen within the standard mechanics of the game.
wrecan 07-14-06, 06:27 PM	A level 20 fighter (without power attack) damages a commoner about as much as a level 1 fighter if they have the same strength and use the same mundane dagger. The level 20 fighter just hits more often. A level 20 fighter has increased his abilities five times (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, 20th). His Strength could be 4 points higher thanks to his experience and training. That's an +2 bonus to attack and damage. Moreover, he is attacking four times as often, and thus dealing four times as much damage. An initiative action with multiple attacks does not have to be seen as four identical attacks but as one attack that is four times as effective. Moreover, since the fighter is hitting a target more often than a commoner is (+20 BAB v. +0 BAB), he is dealing more damage because he is placing his blows in damaging areas more often. Look at it this way. A dagger in a commoner's hand or a 20th level fighter's hand is still a 6" piece of metal. It doesn't get transformed in the fighter's hands. What he gets better at doing is finding ways to make that metal connect with the fleshy parts of his opponent more often. And a fighter who has not taken Power Attack is clearly improving at things other than dealing damage. And that's his choice.
Delfedd 07-14-06, 06:52 PM	Strange thing about "you're always doing the best you can to damage the opponent" is that you don't really become better at dealing damage... alright, you can get feats. Boosting strength and gettings better equipment doesn't count. Actually, I describe it so that that you do get better at dealling damage. A level 20 assasin with 4 attacks isn't going to sneak up behind someone and stab them four times. He's going to come up behind him and slit the throat of the man, doing all his death attacks and sneak attacks in one hit. it's all in the description. a Fighter might only get one really good attack in a round of combat. For me, all those dice just show the total damage, and then I, as DM, just run with it.
Thiez 07-14-06, 06:57 PM	I might give that a try, thanks Delfedd and wrecan.
Milandros 07-14-06, 09:41 PM	I agree with the other posters, after all, a non-called shot isn't "I swing vaguely in his direction, hoping that I might get lucky and not hit his armour". Not even a 1st level character does that. I would add that what was described in the original post sounded to me like a coup-de-grace. If the enemy were helpless, then a skull-splitting attempt is feasible and reasonable - and there are already coup-de-grace rules. Also, what works for players works against them. If you stated that "the enemy duellist goes straight for your eye" and then roll a hit, I suspect they would say "I get out of the way!" not, "oh, ok, I'm dead then". Called shots don't fit within the flavour of the armour class / hit point stylised combat system.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 07-14-06, 11:30 PM	And could be used to do things like cut a rope or shoot and item out of someone's hands. Called shots did not, in the RAW, target specific body areas. I remember it saying that they did, but it just didn't do anything special.
Dowjin 07-15-06, 03:13 AM	I allow the extra crit confirm for death variant, but I rule that it /only/ counts for instant death if the third roll is a 20. Thusly 20 -> 20 -> 20 is a garaunteed kill unless the target is immune to crits, or your method of attack. If the third roll is anything less than 20, your just doing a normal ciritcal hit.
Righter8 07-15-06, 03:52 AM	Also, what works for players works against them. If you stated that "the enemy duellist goes straight for your eye" and then roll a hit, I suspect they would say "I get out of the way!" not, "oh, ok, I'm dead then". As everyone else has basically warned away from allowing the players to use "called shots" I agree with this tactic. ALLOW them to "aim for the skull" or whatever. But, remember, whatever PC's can do, so can NPC's. After a whole session of multiple encounters with minor foes (say 15 or 20 goblins, kolbolds, etc.) making called shots, I'm sure your PC's may change their view of this great "tactic". After a player in my game decided a wand of "Hunters Mercy" was a great idea, I decided to take his idea and multiply it. Amazing how a group of 6 drow rangers can hold a party of 4 at the end of a 100 foot corridor for a 6 hour game session. Player often love to use anything that tips the advantage to them, but seldom enjoy it when that same tactic is used against them. If something a PC wants to do seems to be "too much", let the NPC do it too and see if anyone still wants to use it in the game.
Cantankerous 07-15-06, 04:06 AM	I have been DMing for quite some time and my players have always played within the rules. However, when one of my player's announced he stabbed the boss of a sprawling dungeon in the skull. I worked it like a sunder because I'm not sure how it would work. He rolled a 19 and I rolled a 1. I announced he cut off the bosses' head off. I was wondering if there are any specific rules for instant-kills or if they are not allowed in D&D by standard rules. One thing to always remember, and to remind your Players of if they complain about not being able to do such things themselves, is that if they can do it, so can their opponents. Do you, as a Player, really want your 15th level character that you've been playing for 50+ sessions and put dozens of hours of thought and effort into bringing to life dead because the DM rolled one good roll while you rolled one poor one? Hit points and the hit point system, while clunky at times and frustratingly unrealistic in every manner, are a GREAT mechanical method of preventing such stupidity. Isshia
Thiez 07-15-06, 08:07 AM	The problem with 'rolling 4 times doesn't mean you hit 4 times' are ranged weapons. You shoot 4 arrows. You throw 4 daggers. But somehow when you use a sword you hit more often and do the same amount of damage.
Dan Hemmens 07-15-06, 08:33 AM	Called Shots are one of the strange sacred cattle of RPGs. No matter how abstract the system, no matter how many strange bells and whistles it has attached to it, and no matter how little sense it makes, players always want to be able to say "I hit him in the *head*". Called Shots make a complete mockery of hitpoints, critical chances, and ... well ... everything else the combat system is based on. There is never any reason not to use a called shot. Ever. Also: Called Shot + True Strike = ... well let's not even bother thinking about that eh.
Limousine_Liberal 07-15-06, 10:00 AM	The problem with called shots, really, are that if the players can "sunder the BBEG's head" then the next BBEG can do the same thing to them. In fact, he'd be stupid to do anything else, since sundering the head of an enemy would generally be easier than fighting him in traditional combat.
zae 07-15-06, 10:49 AM	Has anyone here ever played Rifts? That showed a terrible example of your average called shot system. You don't take a penalty, you just have a higher DC. If you miss the higher DC but still roll enough to hit, you still hit the target normally. So there's a good chance you'll get a headshot, but if not, you still do normal damage. Completely awful... In one of my groups, we tend to describe things after the rolls are made. That way, when the fighter crits and rolls heaps of damage, THEN he says "I hit it in the head!" (usually with a better description, but it boils down to that)
The White Sorcerer 07-15-06, 01:40 PM	Here's how I'd handle "I stab it in the skull:" Ask for an attack roll. If it threatens a crit, roll again. If the roll is 20, roll again. If this roll hits, the character has stabbed the enemy in the skull, killing it.
Leilond 07-15-06, 01:46 PM	Here's how I'd handle "I stab it in the skull:" Ask for an attack roll. If it threatens a crit, roll again. If the roll is 20, roll again. If this roll hits, the character has stabbed the enemy in the skull, killing it. And one of the best encounter you prepared for your group is wasted for a single very lucky roll
WolfHati 07-15-06, 02:53 PM	I only allow called shots if I'm playing a game with action points... just another use for them. But it's never an instant kill. An automatic critical for a headshot, maybe. And if I recall, aiming for the head was at -6 or -8 in 2e.
Archmage_Vall 07-15-06, 03:11 PM	Player: I'm making a called shot at its neck. DM: Well of course. Roll Player: Total attack is 23 DM: That hits but just barely. You grazed its arm. Player: But I made a called shot at its neck. :confused: DM: Well, isn't that special. :ahem:
nevcoup 07-15-06, 03:14 PM	And one of the best encounter you prepared for your group is wasted for a single very lucky roll That is a series of 3 lucky rolls.
Lucan_Desmond 07-15-06, 03:48 PM	I think that your players should be encouraged to describe their attacks this way. I do it with my groups to keep things from sounding like this: PC: I attack it. DM: Roll to hit. PC: I got a 19. With bonus' thats a 24. DM: Hit, roll for damage. PC: 9 Damage. Next attack... 15, that makes a 20. DM: Miss. Anymore attacks? PC: No. DM: Monster attacks back.............. And so on... I'm bored just from writting that. I run combats like this: PC: I swing my sword arm out wide to the right, but low, aiming for the Gnolls knee. DM: Roll to hit. PC: 13, plus bonus' makes 18. DM: Ok, you hit him, but he's able to move to soften the blow. You don't disable his knee, but he suffers a nasty gash across his thigh, roll for damage. PC: Ok, 7 damage. My next attack will swing my sword back up and towards thr right, aiming at the gnoll's left elbow. DM: Roll to hit. PC: 20! Crit threat! ... and a 15, makes 20, a critical hit! DM: Ok, you slice deep into the gnoll's elbow. It's barely attached to the rest of his arm. That was his shield arm, so his AC is now reduced by 2. Roll your crit damage. PC: 14 damage! DM: Ok, that enough, through massive blood loss and the trauma of pretty much losing an arm, the gnoll falls to the ground, bleeding to death. Thats how I run my combats. It's MUCH more interesting for everyone involved. I had a dwarf fighter have to fight unarmed once because he critcally missed on a power attack, and I deemed that meant that he lodged his axe so far into a tree that it would take him a considerable amount of time to pull it back out! Basically what I'm trying to say is that when your player said he "Stabbed the guy in the skull," you should have just made him roll, and on a normal hit you should have responded with something like: "Ok, you hit, but he was able to sidestep at the last minute, so you left a deep gash in his left shoulder, roll for normal damage." On a critical hit, he could have actually "stabbed him in the skull." If your players get out of hand and try to always attack the head of everything they fight, teach them a lesson about real fighting. Send an intelligent fighter after them, and as they continually attack his head say: "Ok, he takes advantage of your lack of defense towards your lower body and stabs his sword straight through your thigh. You AC was at -3 when he attacked your legs since your weapon is always above your shoulders, making your legs an easy target. Your left leg is disabled." They'll learn to think about their fights after that... Later, Des
Cifer 07-15-06, 04:19 PM	Thats how I run my combats. It's MUCH more interesting for everyone involved. I had a dwarf fighter have to fight unarmed once because he critcally missed on a power attack, and I deemed that meant that he lodged his axe so far into a tree that it would take him a considerable amount of time to pull it back out! Let's just say that critical misses are, in my opinion, not much better than called shots/instant kills. Here's how I'd handle "I stab it in the skull:" Ask for an attack roll. If it threatens a crit, roll again. If the roll is 20, roll again. If this roll hits, the character has stabbed the enemy in the skull, killing it. The reason I don't like this is that I, as the DM, have a lot of goons which will nearly all die somewhere in the combat (whether through a crit or normal hits) while the players each have only one character. This means if they instakill something, it's one of about hundred "characters" I will use in the campaign and, seen statistically, probably not a very interesting one. If I instakill something, it will be the beloved brainchild of one of my players and there was nothing he could do against it because there was no warning sign like low hitpoints.
Righter8 07-15-06, 05:29 PM	PC: I swing my sword arm out wide to the right, but low, aiming for the Gnolls knee. DM: Roll to hit. PC: 13, plus bonus' makes 18. DM: Ok, you hit him, but he's able to move to soften the blow. You don't disable his knee, but he suffers a nasty gash across his thigh, roll for damage. PC: Ok, 7 damage. My next attack will swing my sword back up and towards thr right, aiming at the gnoll's left elbow. DM: Roll to hit. PC: 20! Crit threat! ... and a 15, makes 20, a critical hit! DM: Ok, you slice deep into the gnoll's elbow. It's barely attached to the rest of his arm. That was his shield arm, so his AC is now reduced by 2. Roll your crit damage. PC: 14 damage! DM: Ok, that enough, through massive blood loss and the trauma of pretty much losing an arm, the gnoll falls to the ground, bleeding to death. Thats how I run my combats. It's MUCH more interesting for everyone involved. I had a dwarf fighter have to fight unarmed once because he critcally missed on a power attack, and I deemed that meant that he lodged his axe so far into a tree that it would take him a considerable amount of time to pull it back out! Unfortunately, Combats in our games already take forever. This would most likely make one combat last 2 sessions...
Lucan_Desmond 07-16-06, 11:49 AM	Unfortunately, Combats in our games already take forever. This would most likely make one combat last 2 sessions... My combats have never taken much longer. It keeps the game interesting, and combats only take about 10% longer than before. If your DM (or you if you are the DM) simply keeps things moving and understands the rules and how the fight is going well enough, this doesn't slow the game down at all. Try it sometime! Des
bg2soatob 07-16-06, 02:25 PM	I once wrote a series of rules for called shots, as part of my love for creating house-rules and for making d&d combat more realistic (I also designed a simultaneous initative system and degrading armor system). It acutally has tactical importance: slash him in the leg during a chase, or the arm to make it hard for him to attack, use spells and skills, etc. The eye would blind him, ear defean him,...you get the idea. The system involved having to hit a higher AC (due to size bonuses), and having to deal a certain amount of damage in one hit. The numbers were poorly done, however, because my final system was compared to the black knight scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. :) With proper balancing, though, the system could work. Note: A hit on the head is not necessarily an insta-kill, especially if the weapon isn't a piercing weapon. It is very dizzying, however.
eigch 07-16-06, 03:20 PM	you could make a feat that kind of simulates this called shot thing and fits in with the hit point/armor class/abstract damage system. Here's how I'd do it, feel free to critisize and modify Feat - Called shot Prerequisite - Dex ?, Combat Expertise? You may take a -4 on your attack roll to increase the Critical multiplyer of your weapon by an increment of one. This may be done multiple times in a round up to -12. Example - Regdar executes a called shot against a bugbear. He takes -8 to the attack. He rolls a 19 (within crit range) and rolls an 18 for crit confirmation (which ends up being a hit). Regdar gets to roll 1d8 + str * 4 for damage. You could also have a feat like this Feat - Sure shot Prerequisite - ??? whenever you make a second roll to confirm a critical hit, any negative modifiers you have taken to your attack roll do not apply to this roll. For example you could have a -2 from combat expertise, a -2 from power attack, a -4 for Called shot. You could then roll a 20 to hit an opponent, and on your crit confirmation roll you would not have to take the -8 to see if you hit. This would have to exclude negative modifiers your enemies give you like from spells like curse and whatnot. what do you think?
kalmarjan 07-17-06, 01:18 AM	Hmmm.... 2e and called shots. Brings back memories. BTW: In 2e, a called shot was -4 to attack, but a caled shot to the head was -10 to attack. This made everyone wear a helmet or a skull cap. :) Seriously though, I believe the main reason the called shot was brought in as a mechanic was for battles with creatures like Hydras. You could not kill them until you lopped off their heads. Now we are in 3e, and RAW do not allow for "called shots" in the old sense. Instead you have Sunder et al. As for the player saying that he stabs the creature in the skull, my question is, so what? If the player attacks and hits, maybe he does hit the creature in the skull. Would I worry about a rule here? No. If the player kills the creature, (Bringing it to -10 HP), why worry as to whether or not the character lopped off the things' head? Dead is Dead. If the creature was still alive, then sure, you stabbed it in the skull, but it is still up, and oh... it is attacking. I don't think that the player should be suppressed when he is describing what his character does over semantics on the rules. Why spend an afternoon looking through the PHB and DMG to see if there are any rules on "called shots"? What is the point. Let the player have his moment in the spotlight, then move on. That is why we are playing this game, no? Sandeman
Alex288 07-17-06, 02:21 AM	Do you think wizard will evert introduce new "call shot" feats/abilities? The reason why I ask is in the PHB corerule book on page 155 (3.0) it shows a list of vital places on a person. Which I always thought was odd.... but have used it to form my own custom rules. Here are just a few: Call shot: Neck -6 to roll if target is wearing face armor; -4 if target is not if the attack hits the target takes 1d4 dmg per round until someone mends him(DC 18 full round action) Call shot: Skull -10 to roll if target is wearing head armor; -4 if target is not If the attack succeeds the target must make a reflex save. The DC is equal to the damage dealt. If the target fails the role, it is knocked unconscious for 1d4 rounds or until someone mends him/her (DC 20 full round action) Call shot: Arm -8 if target is wearing arm armor; -2 if target is not If attack succeeds the arm becomes paralyzed until someone performs mend (DC 16 full round action) Call shot: wrist -4 if target is wearing armor; -2 if target is not If attack succeeds target gets -2 to attack until mended (DC 14 full around action) Hopefuly this helped.
Cifer 07-18-06, 07:13 AM	Do you think wizard will evert introduce new "call shot" feats/abilities? I very much hope they don't. Trips, disarms and stuff like them are usually enough to accomplish most things that go beyond "Kill that guy".
Hawk Kriegsman 07-18-06, 08:34 AM	Hello All, I actually use a home brew system of critical hits and called shots based on Torn Asunder. It basically works like this: The player announces his intention to do a called shot (in this case to the head). Taking a called shot is a full round action. The PC taking the called shot must make a DC 15 Concentration Check, which provokes an OP Attack. If the PC fails his Concentration Check then his turn is done. If he succeeds then he rolls to hit with a -8 penalty (the penalty for head shot). Lets say the PC is trying to hit an AC 15 and he has attack bonus of +8 (+5 BAB and +3 STR).....he still needs to roll a 15 + to get the head shot. Anyways he rolls 16 and hits the foe in the head for 1d8 +3 (longsword) and critical damage based on charts I have. To determine the severity of a successful called shot we take 20 + the attack bonus - the AC of 15 for result #13 (slashing) on the head chart (based on the old WFRP crit charts) which reads: Your blow shears into your opponent’s jaw, breaking the jaw bone and knocking out several teeth. Your opponent is Dazed for 1 round. The necessity to keep spitting out blood and tooth fragments causes your opponent to make all rolls and checks at -2 until successful medical attention is received. That is how a called shot works in my game. Players almost never do it with someone within threat range. It works very well and does not slow down game play at all. I also use the crits if a weapon hits within the crit range during regular melee. Same guy above rolls a 19 (+8) = 27 with a longsword on an AC 20 foe. He will do 1d8 +3 points of damage, get to roll to see if he causes double damage and gets a crit result #7 (slashing) on a random body area.....lets use right leg The crit result #7 (slashing) leg result is: Your blow causes a flesh wound on your opponent’s calf. Your opponent is knocked to the ground and any handheld items are dropped unless a REF Save (DC = 10+wounds lost) is made. Your opponent is also Dazed for a Round. Anyways that is the system I use. My players love the critical system. Thanx! Hawk