Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Messer 11-21-06, 11:52 AM	I used to have a player who would walk into town, and ask, "Does this town have an (item's name)?" and roll the percentile dice. When it came up 98, he would shoud, "Yes! it does! I'm gonna find it and buy it!" I don't like the simple, "erase the money/add the item" system of shopping, and tonight I tested a new system. I took away all the books aside from the players book, and I let them describe to the shop-keeper the items they were looking for. Fortunately, I have a reall RP focused dude giving examples to a new player who hasn't memorized the items lists, (she's playing an orc, which is funny enough in its own right, if you ever saw a bookish english teacher say, "Heck, lets kill'um all an' get out of here before someone finds us" then you know what I mean) of how to talk to the civilized merchants and craftsmen of the 'larger' towns in Breland. This whole thing turned into 3 hours of hilarity as each player in turn went shopping for the things they wanted. spending money, and trying to make things work just right was fun, but even more fun was listening to the descriptions they gave of the things they wanted. I actually worked out my 'old treasure system' on the fly to make things a little more fun... and now... with a lot less to do... the old treasure system. Number one! To really assign a treasure, or, even things that are available, is simple. I grab the 'treasure table' on pages 52 and 53 of my favorite book (DMG.) And I make them say, "I'm looking for a magic item" then, I take the population of the town, and figure that to be the challenge rating for the treasure. 1000 people equals Challenge rating 1. etcetera. I mean, there would have to be a lot of people in to town for there to be some of the cool things that people go looking for... most of them are story items which should be hidden away, but, a +1 Composite longbow (+1 Str) might be easy enough to find in a town of a 1000 people... if you roll above a 95. Number two! Now the fun begins, We start the RP, and when they get around to saking, I dont say, "yes or no" I just rp as to weather or not they might have something more valuable than what they have on display. Usually the answer is "Well, that depends on how much you are willing to spend" Watch your players try to answer that one... It can get funny. I went so far tonight as to make the Dwarven Weapons smith a mute. it was funny to see them try to get things done. Number three The RP may go into the direction that the Bowyer may have something special he keeps just for those hunters that are looking to take down the 'big game' and he is willing to show it to them. Now, heres where things get fun. Say they Player said, "I'm looking for a nice bow" in a town of 1000 people. The best you could get is really anything minor, as long as you follow the randowm treasure charts at the back of the book. So, we get them to roll up the "Bow" they were looking for, skipping the beginning, because that was the 'first roll' they made the 96+ on. that meant, "yes, they do have a Minor magic item that you are looking for. but... is it really the item you want, and do you have the money for it. They may want a +1 Composit Longbow (+1 Str), but the bowyer might not have that, he might have a +1 Frost Composit Longbow (+1 Str), or a +2 Seeking Composit Longbow (+5 Str) Depending on the rolls. Now, this does facter in that you would roll a d6 to figure out the strength rating of the bow. Number four Player and DM now haggle out prices using game stats and cool RP time, which other players often get a good chuckle at. Everythings fair in love and war. Thats what I say.... So, to rehash, and give a new example. #1 Player declaires that they are looking for something, and goes to the 'shop' of the apropriate type. RP insues, where the item in question is brought up and the "Roll is made" #2 If said item in question could possible egsists, usting the equasion from above.... Pop/1000 = CR Roll Percentile dice for item type on tresure list page 52/53 of DMG then we begin the process of learning what item is available. #3 Using the 'random genearation' information which will begin in the proper step where the 'items' type has already been decided, then, we genearte item, with price included. #4 Haggle. !!EXCEPTION!! In the case of, say... a large town, 4000 people or something. I always go ahead and half the CR for the 'number of simmilar items' .... so, There may be two Magical Greate axes, if there is one at all. and they will nto be the same. so each item is rolled up differently. . . . So, thats my 'shopping system' which provided us with a good 3 hours of RP tonight, and got us well underway to a clean 'no shopping adventure' next week. I'm so excited! What do you think of it? (keep in mind I am completely tired, and can't really think that well, so, this might be completely unclear.)
DisposableHero_ 11-21-06, 12:06 PM	So, thats my 'shopping system' which provided us with a good 3 hours of RP tonight...Pardon me for raining on your parade, but why on earth in a fantasy adventure game would you want the PCs to spend 3 hours shopping for a magical item? Your system is sufficient to add depth and detail to the shopping experience certainly, but I would say the game is not played for the most part for the shopping experience and anything requiring that much rolling and time should be significant to the adventure. If you and your group enjoy it, far be it from me to stand in your way, but it seems very much ado about nothing to me. I have a player right now whose biggest complaint about previous DMs was that they would force him to RP mundane activities with this sort of depth and would waste collosal amounts of time with the minutia of everyday life rather than the adventuring, the essence of heroic fantasy. I of course see that there is value in depth and detail of role playing, but I think you should try to find it in the context of adventure and heroics rather than in the context of shopping.
Edrick_Malichi 11-21-06, 12:25 PM	A while ago I created a small online app that would tell me if a city had the item the PC was looking for, and gave suggestions to amount of time it took to locate it and who gave it. http://www.patricksrealm.com/personal/mitem.php It's been a while since I worked on it, and it lacks a little polish, but it's amusing for a few rolls. As a side note, I would go nuts if I had to RP 3 hours of nothing, but if your group enjoyed the RP, then you did nothing wrong. When rules get in the way of the game (and thus the fun) that's when you are doing something wrong. Just wanted to say that while DisposableHero or I won't be knocking down the door to join your game, if your players are happy then you have done a great job.
perdera 11-21-06, 12:25 PM	Different strokes for different parties. I'm glad you all had fun with that roleplaying, I tend to hate shopping--but I'd shop all night if my players had fun doing it. If shopping comes up in the middle of play, first thing I'll do is cap it to keep the unrealistic requests away: You can only find items up to 3,000gp in this small village. That usually shuts them up as they want to save their money for the Toys 'R Us in Sharn. If they still want something I might give each player one or two "Do they have X?" before we move on. No, you can't sit there going through each item in the DMG and asking me if they have it. Either your character knows he wants something or he doesn't. I also might have the shopkeeper suggest an item that _I_ think the party could benefit from: Nope, don't have that item, but I have this nice fully charged Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Ideally, the session ends at a good shopping point and I say you can find items up to XX,XXXgp, make a list in order of desiribility and I'll run down a quick Yes/No at the start of next session. I'll also entertain emails during the week so we can get it out of the way. But really, the bottom line is fun. Kudos (to you AND your players) for making shopping fun.
Board_Rider 11-21-06, 12:27 PM	I have a player right now whose biggest complaint about previous DMs was that they would force him to RP mundane activities with this sort of depth and would waste collosal amounts of time with the minutia of everyday life rather than the adventuring, the essence of heroic fantasy. I of course see that there is value in depth and detail of role playing, but I think you should try to find it in the context of adventure and heroics rather than in the context of shopping. QFT. Of course, if your players are enjoying the shopping and roleplay tie in then thats just swell.
JerBar 11-21-06, 01:01 PM	The players in my game are used to having a magic store in every town, so they could pretty much walk in and say "I head on down to the local magic imporium and buy a few wands of cure light wounds." This would not be such a big deal if it didn't lead to the next statment "I'm going to go and find two merchants who are selling +2 flaming swords and try to bargain them down, what's the lowest price I can get?" I found that I didn't like how casual players were about finding magic items, (oh, another suit of +2 armor, I guess I'll wear it for now, but I'll sell it for something better when we get to town). The game I run now is in a low magic world, so far the only magic items they have found are pretty much the most powerful in the world has to offer. Now my players get excited about finding any magic item, I just added two magic rings to a treasure pile and everyone all excited to find out what they are. I might end up roleplaying out a little bit of shopping, but I would rather not spend 3 hours doing it.
Pyke_Moonshadow 11-21-06, 01:02 PM	I don't really allow shopping. If there is a magic dealer in town I randomly determine what is available before hand. If the town doesn't have what they want they can ask the shopkeep to inquire with his contacts and the item may be available on a future visit.
AntiDjinn 11-21-06, 01:28 PM	There was a player in my group who liked nothing but shopping. She would spend hours of game time outfitting her character. Before we could even leave for the dungeon, she had to decide what she was wearing, what jewelry and accessories, where her gear was stowed, and which of her many pets she was brining along. She insisted her outfits be custom tailored and roleplayed the meeting with the seamstress. She wanted to roleplay every merchant encounter: Buying candles meant picking color and scent even though as far as I know she never burned a candle. She bought a rope and other adventuring gear and specified where it was kept, though if another character was at the bottom of a pit she never once lowered them a rope. Wands were added to her bag of holding, but I never saw her burn a single charge. She had a talent for making the game slow to a mind-numbing crawl whenever we were in town. Of course, we indulged her when we could; as a single mom living on a budget she could not afford haute couture, fancy jewelry, exotic pets, and gourmet food in real life. Most of wanted to do heroic deeds in our fantasy life, her fantasy was to be able to buy nice things. Back to the topic at hand: As a DM I would never let a player make the roll to see if a town has a given magic item then inform me what is available in my town. I also stress to players that the DMG is not a catalog. Just because a given item is available, does not mean you will find it or the holder will not sell it to someone else. In my game magic items are too valuable to be left sitting on the shelves in a shop. Brokers, not shopkeepers, handle the sale of items. If you want something you need to talk to the right broker, who will arrange for the sale (there may be many brokers involved because it is all about connections). Some brokers simply bring buyer and seller together, some will act as an agent and procure the item. In no case does Magemart get involved.
solbergb 11-21-06, 01:51 PM	Given how the crafting rules work, aside from the most common things (+1 weapons, potions/oils that most fighter types carry, low level scrolls that most casters of that type want handy, wands of clw) and oddball stuff that other adventurers sold to brokers that go out trying to find buyers, I'd expect that the usual technique would be to commission the item you want, rather than shop for it Ie, I want a merciful composite bow +4 str. I need to find somebody with craft arms/armor and the clw spell who works with a bowyer who can make the masterwork bow (or I provide the bow). Failing that, I go to a broker who knows all the crafters in the region and commission him to get the item made while I go earn the cash for it. This might cost a bit more - but if I've done a favor for the crafter or the broker in the past, it might cost a bit less. What this does mostly is put a time delay between the desire to purchase and getting the item which is a bit longer than the time to craft it. The concept is that the "magic mart" is really just a broker, who knows adventurers, military, churches, wizards and such in the area and knows who wants is in the market for what and who else might be able to create something. It isn't like a supermarket - but it doesn't have to frustrate the players either. They get what they want, and can fence stuff they find and don't need, with the broker taking the risk on not finding a buyer, or handling the minutia of commissioning a magic item to be made. In exchange, he buys all items at half market value and sells at full...making a fat profit every time he makes a sale, presumably sharing some of that profit with crafters but alternately just trading favors with them (he brings something they need, they craft something for him later).