"I want you to hit me as hard as you can..." [Archive] - Wizards Community

"I want you to hit me as hard as you can..." [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cardinal_Boz
10-16-04, 06:40 PM Apologies to Fight Club for the title.

Anyway, in a session last night the party found itself hunting for a serial killer. The only solid clues that they had were that 1) the killer either used a double-bladed sword to work his craft, or is capable of some particularly fancy manuevers with some other kind of slashing item and 2) the killer probably wore a type of grey cloak sold by local tailoring wunderkind Alistair Crowne during one of his killings- this was based on a bloody and incompletely burnt up cloak they found buried underneath a heap of trash using thermal vision. The group managed to get a list of people who'd recently bought such cloaks from Crowne and proceeded to visit a few of them and see what sort of evidence turned up.

One of these potential suspects was a man named Bennet Ellesin, a traveler of uncertain origins. They tracked him to his inn and spoke to him, learning that he claimed to be a monk (of the martial arts type), and did in fact appear unarmed. The party, however, was unconvinced, thinking that he might just be claiming to be a monk to throw them off his tracks. Thus, the party fighter suddenly challenged Ellesin to hit him with his hardest punch- his reasoning being that if he was truly a monk, his punch would deal substantially better damage than an average person, barring ridiculous strength. Ellesin complied and dealt the fighter a solid blow, at which point the party apologized for troubling him and left.

Now, would you say it was metagaming on the fighter's part to think up a plan like that, or is it within a reasonably knowledgable adventurer's grasp to know that a monk's unarmed attacks hurt much more than Joe Peasant's? Without metagaming in numerical damage, would your average fighter be able to mentally compare various attacks of different strengths to gauge an opponents power? If it is reasonable, would it be possible for someone to "pull thier punches" so to speak, if they ever needed to *conceal* their strength for some reason?
Snommelp
10-16-04, 06:52 PM 1) It is perfectly reasonable for a fighter to know that monks hit hard. This is usually common knowledge, and any adventurer who has spent any time with a monk would definitely know it.
2) I would say that the fighter could probably gauge the hit without metagaming. It's a matter of "that punch felt like a punch" versus "that punch felt like I got run over by a whole team of horses."
3) I see no reason why a person couldn't pull their punches if they needed to. You can purposefully hit at less than full power in real life, so why not in DnD?
CzarGarrett
10-16-04, 07:00 PM I concur on all 3 issues.

I would think most adventures know the generals of each class. Wizards and socererers throw around fire and can screw with your mind. Clerics can heal and buff. Fighters use weapons, lots of them. Paladins are fighters with a more stuffy demeanor and good against evil things. Etc, etc.

Although, I will say, if the guy really wanted to show he was a monk, it would have gone with a flurry of blows type thing.

Pulling one's punch can be obvious. I'd probably go for a sense motive check around 10 + 1/2 bluff skills + dex mod. Note to explain that: Bluff is generally talking, but can go for feinting. But this isn't a full feint. And to pull a punch, you have to be quick enough to have a real punch up until the last minute before pulling.
Hugin
10-16-04, 07:25 PM I'd have to agree with the others on this... but...nobody likes getting hurt and the possibility of a linguring pain can be a small deterant to give yourself up voluntarily to gettong hurt. So to include a "flinch" factor, and to provide a possible roleplaying oppurtunity, I'd require the fighter to successfully Will Save vs. DC 10 (or something like that); if he failed, he flinched and involuntarily (tried to) dodge the punch. It's just for fun. ;)
EatFlan
10-16-04, 07:38 PM HAHA OH I HAVE A PLAN!

next time something like that happens hit the PC w/a Quivering Palm attack (you can set it up days in advance and then kill later) and have the monk be like:

'now leave me, and never bother me again...'

if a fighter was all 'what, come here and let me smack you'

the guy just kills him @ will. And it's a will save.
Nom
10-16-04, 08:14 PM There's also the response of "What sort of nutcase are you? Go away and leave me in peace." Unless the players have some sort of legal authority to make random people do whatever they ask, at which point they'd be better to just arrest the guy for questioning.
Cardinal_Boz
10-16-04, 10:26 PM Thanks for the responses! I'll pass on the elaborations given here to the fighter's player next time I see him. I wholeheartedly wish I'd thought of the Quivering Palm angle during the encounter :)
As for the question of legal authority that Nom brought up, the party had the illusion of legal authority at the time, but nothing that would have held up if someone had seriously pressed the issue.
Phrennzy
10-16-04, 10:39 PM Yah remember that not everyone is willing to answer every question thrown at them.

Anyone asking me to punch them as hard as I can HAS to be a nutjob.

"Go away and leave me to my meal."

If they refuse, then maybe he WILL hit them as hard as he can.

How about this: "If I were to hit you as hard as I can, I would cripple you. Best to take me at my word."

Also, unless the PCs are cops, no one HAS to answer their questions or perform their desired actions.

AND by asking the monk to hit them, they are basically telling him to "prove" what he just told them - in effect calling him a liar.
Murr-Quan Lord #2
10-16-04, 10:43 PM If they can pull their punches, I'd suggest using the method from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.

One of the main chars was trying to find out who was the masked Monk-like char trying to steal the Green Destiny sword. So while at tea with her, she knocked one of the saucers off of the table, and the suspect instantly caught it.

Forced her to roll a quick Reflex save. ^.^
Grayson
10-17-04, 12:53 AM I'd think that demonstrating the ability to break a rock or something would be more appropriate, but I guess breaking a player's face works too ;)

Seems perfectly reasonable to me, assuming the fighter has a highish Intelligence, and a reasonable Wisdom.

One pitfall would be if the monk wasn't terribly high level, and thus didn't do much damage beyond what a normal person would do.. Or they could be a monk, without being a Monk.
Snommelp
10-17-04, 01:01 AM Of course, if the fighter had highish wisdom he probably wouldn't have asked to be hit in the first place, right?
TheGreenGriffon
10-17-04, 02:33 PM If they found the serial killers burnt Cloak under some garbage or something why didnt they just locate the suspect on the list who no longer had his cloak? And if all of them did it would only be a simple matter of asking the tailor who recently bought a new one from the list.

Oh and no I dont think its metagaming, infact its kind of clever or as clever as Fighters usually are. Most know how the legendary monks can kill with a simple unarmed attack and fell mighty creatures with their fists when a warrior requires a huge blade.
Iyestorm
10-17-04, 02:45 PM ...The monk really is the killer, isn't he?
Boothbey
10-17-04, 03:21 PM If they refuse, then maybe he WILL hit them as hard as he can.

How about this: "If I were to hit you as hard as I can, I would cripple you. Best to take me at my word."

Hehe, and if the fighter just stands there and takes it, let the monk go for a coup de grace. :P
Cardinal_Boz
10-17-04, 04:29 PM TheGreenGriffon: Several people on the list didn't have their cloaks anymore, for various reasons. The monk wasn't one of those people, as it turned out, but they decided to hassle him anyway. I DM a rather headstrong group of people.

Iyestorm: Nah, but he does actually have somewhat villianous designs at work, albeit not directly related to the whole serial killer thing.
Iyestorm
10-17-04, 05:01 PM Well, Score 0.5 for the conspiracy theorist :D
Lordofthebean
10-17-04, 06:37 PM Was it the tailor who made the cloaks? I bet it was him. :D
EatFlan
10-17-04, 06:40 PM you can still have the Quivering Palm in the game!

It's not like the monk goes "QUIVERING PALM ATTACK!" like some bad cartoon show. And the PC doesn't even need to know it, and the 'quiver' lasts for days and days. You can even just tell the PC a few days down the road that he doesn't feel well, and if he talks to any healer type, they can mention some sort of destructive vibration contained in their body. Something that may or may not go away in a few days.

Now the PC's really shouldn't know about 'quivering palm attacks' b/c i'd assume that is sort of a monk secret/myth. But if they ever metagame boy oh boy will the PLAYERS be ******* themselves hoping they don't fall down dead.

haha...joyous.
trapspringer
10-17-04, 08:08 PM Ditto... just... Ditto.
The_Fan
10-18-04, 02:59 PM I'd personally make it a DC (9+level at which the class gets the special ability) Knowledge check to figure out what class abilities a particular class has. For the Monk, it'd be either Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (arcana). In that case, it would be perfectly reasonable for "common knowledge" (DC 10 knowledge check) to know that monks can hit with the force of a light mace.

It's worth noting though that a 5th level monk (+3 attack 1d8, average 4.5) has about the same average damage as a fighter with improved unarmed strike power attacking for two (+3 attack 1d3+2, average 4).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cardinal_Boz 10-16-04, 06:40 PM	Apologies to Fight Club for the title. Anyway, in a session last night the party found itself hunting for a serial killer. The only solid clues that they had were that 1) the killer either used a double-bladed sword to work his craft, or is capable of some particularly fancy manuevers with some other kind of slashing item and 2) the killer probably wore a type of grey cloak sold by local tailoring wunderkind Alistair Crowne during one of his killings- this was based on a bloody and incompletely burnt up cloak they found buried underneath a heap of trash using thermal vision. The group managed to get a list of people who'd recently bought such cloaks from Crowne and proceeded to visit a few of them and see what sort of evidence turned up. One of these potential suspects was a man named Bennet Ellesin, a traveler of uncertain origins. They tracked him to his inn and spoke to him, learning that he claimed to be a monk (of the martial arts type), and did in fact appear unarmed. The party, however, was unconvinced, thinking that he might just be claiming to be a monk to throw them off his tracks. Thus, the party fighter suddenly challenged Ellesin to hit him with his hardest punch- his reasoning being that if he was truly a monk, his punch would deal substantially better damage than an average person, barring ridiculous strength. Ellesin complied and dealt the fighter a solid blow, at which point the party apologized for troubling him and left. Now, would you say it was metagaming on the fighter's part to think up a plan like that, or is it within a reasonably knowledgable adventurer's grasp to know that a monk's unarmed attacks hurt much more than Joe Peasant's? Without metagaming in numerical damage, would your average fighter be able to mentally compare various attacks of different strengths to gauge an opponents power? If it is reasonable, would it be possible for someone to "pull thier punches" so to speak, if they ever needed to conceal their strength for some reason?
Snommelp 10-16-04, 06:52 PM	1) It is perfectly reasonable for a fighter to know that monks hit hard. This is usually common knowledge, and any adventurer who has spent any time with a monk would definitely know it. 2) I would say that the fighter could probably gauge the hit without metagaming. It's a matter of "that punch felt like a punch" versus "that punch felt like I got run over by a whole team of horses." 3) I see no reason why a person couldn't pull their punches if they needed to. You can purposefully hit at less than full power in real life, so why not in DnD?
CzarGarrett 10-16-04, 07:00 PM	I concur on all 3 issues. I would think most adventures know the generals of each class. Wizards and socererers throw around fire and can screw with your mind. Clerics can heal and buff. Fighters use weapons, lots of them. Paladins are fighters with a more stuffy demeanor and good against evil things. Etc, etc. Although, I will say, if the guy really wanted to show he was a monk, it would have gone with a flurry of blows type thing. Pulling one's punch can be obvious. I'd probably go for a sense motive check around 10 + 1/2 bluff skills + dex mod. Note to explain that: Bluff is generally talking, but can go for feinting. But this isn't a full feint. And to pull a punch, you have to be quick enough to have a real punch up until the last minute before pulling.
Hugin 10-16-04, 07:25 PM	I'd have to agree with the others on this... but...nobody likes getting hurt and the possibility of a linguring pain can be a small deterant to give yourself up voluntarily to gettong hurt. So to include a "flinch" factor, and to provide a possible roleplaying oppurtunity, I'd require the fighter to successfully Will Save vs. DC 10 (or something like that); if he failed, he flinched and involuntarily (tried to) dodge the punch. It's just for fun. ;)
EatFlan 10-16-04, 07:38 PM	HAHA OH I HAVE A PLAN! next time something like that happens hit the PC w/a Quivering Palm attack (you can set it up days in advance and then kill later) and have the monk be like: 'now leave me, and never bother me again...' if a fighter was all 'what, come here and let me smack you' the guy just kills him @ will. And it's a will save.
Nom 10-16-04, 08:14 PM	There's also the response of "What sort of nutcase are you? Go away and leave me in peace." Unless the players have some sort of legal authority to make random people do whatever they ask, at which point they'd be better to just arrest the guy for questioning.
Cardinal_Boz 10-16-04, 10:26 PM	Thanks for the responses! I'll pass on the elaborations given here to the fighter's player next time I see him. I wholeheartedly wish I'd thought of the Quivering Palm angle during the encounter :) As for the question of legal authority that Nom brought up, the party had the illusion of legal authority at the time, but nothing that would have held up if someone had seriously pressed the issue.
Phrennzy 10-16-04, 10:39 PM	Yah remember that not everyone is willing to answer every question thrown at them. Anyone asking me to punch them as hard as I can HAS to be a nutjob. "Go away and leave me to my meal." If they refuse, then maybe he WILL hit them as hard as he can. How about this: "If I were to hit you as hard as I can, I would cripple you. Best to take me at my word." Also, unless the PCs are cops, no one HAS to answer their questions or perform their desired actions. AND by asking the monk to hit them, they are basically telling him to "prove" what he just told them - in effect calling him a liar.
Murr-Quan Lord #2 10-16-04, 10:43 PM	If they can pull their punches, I'd suggest using the method from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. One of the main chars was trying to find out who was the masked Monk-like char trying to steal the Green Destiny sword. So while at tea with her, she knocked one of the saucers off of the table, and the suspect instantly caught it. Forced her to roll a quick Reflex save. ^.^
Grayson 10-17-04, 12:53 AM	I'd think that demonstrating the ability to break a rock or something would be more appropriate, but I guess breaking a player's face works too ;) Seems perfectly reasonable to me, assuming the fighter has a highish Intelligence, and a reasonable Wisdom. One pitfall would be if the monk wasn't terribly high level, and thus didn't do much damage beyond what a normal person would do.. Or they could be a monk, without being a Monk.
Snommelp 10-17-04, 01:01 AM	Of course, if the fighter had highish wisdom he probably wouldn't have asked to be hit in the first place, right?
TheGreenGriffon 10-17-04, 02:33 PM	If they found the serial killers burnt Cloak under some garbage or something why didnt they just locate the suspect on the list who no longer had his cloak? And if all of them did it would only be a simple matter of asking the tailor who recently bought a new one from the list. Oh and no I dont think its metagaming, infact its kind of clever or as clever as Fighters usually are. Most know how the legendary monks can kill with a simple unarmed attack and fell mighty creatures with their fists when a warrior requires a huge blade.
Iyestorm 10-17-04, 02:45 PM	...The monk really is the killer, isn't he?
Boothbey 10-17-04, 03:21 PM	If they refuse, then maybe he WILL hit them as hard as he can. How about this: "If I were to hit you as hard as I can, I would cripple you. Best to take me at my word." Hehe, and if the fighter just stands there and takes it, let the monk go for a coup de grace. :P
Cardinal_Boz 10-17-04, 04:29 PM	TheGreenGriffon: Several people on the list didn't have their cloaks anymore, for various reasons. The monk wasn't one of those people, as it turned out, but they decided to hassle him anyway. I DM a rather headstrong group of people. Iyestorm: Nah, but he does actually have somewhat villianous designs at work, albeit not directly related to the whole serial killer thing.
Iyestorm 10-17-04, 05:01 PM	Well, Score 0.5 for the conspiracy theorist :D
Lordofthebean 10-17-04, 06:37 PM	Was it the tailor who made the cloaks? I bet it was him. :D
EatFlan 10-17-04, 06:40 PM	you can still have the Quivering Palm in the game! It's not like the monk goes "QUIVERING PALM ATTACK!" like some bad cartoon show. And the PC doesn't even need to know it, and the 'quiver' lasts for days and days. You can even just tell the PC a few days down the road that he doesn't feel well, and if he talks to any healer type, they can mention some sort of destructive vibration contained in their body. Something that may or may not go away in a few days. Now the PC's really shouldn't know about 'quivering palm attacks' b/c i'd assume that is sort of a monk secret/myth. But if they ever metagame boy oh boy will the PLAYERS be ******* themselves hoping they don't fall down dead. haha...joyous.
trapspringer 10-17-04, 08:08 PM	Ditto... just... Ditto.
The_Fan 10-18-04, 02:59 PM	I'd personally make it a DC (9+level at which the class gets the special ability) Knowledge check to figure out what class abilities a particular class has. For the Monk, it'd be either Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (arcana). In that case, it would be perfectly reasonable for "common knowledge" (DC 10 knowledge check) to know that monks can hit with the force of a light mace. It's worth noting though that a 5th level monk (+3 attack 1d8, average 4.5) has about the same average damage as a fighter with improved unarmed strike power attacking for two (+3 attack 1d3+2, average 4).