"If/then" dungeon conditions, worth the work? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"If/then" dungeon conditions, worth the work? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
nekrolog
10-30-04, 07:25 PM I'm on the fence on this issue, so I'm hoping to start an arguement that will push me over to one side or the other.

In a lot of published adventures (dungeon-crawls usually), you'll see text like this for a room:

"If the PC's enter this room via room 15, then they were being watched by Aznar the rogue kobold through the eyeslits of the tapestry. The bugbears will have been alerted to their presence. If they entered via room 14, then there is a chance that the bugbears in this room will be surprised when the PC's enter."

Lets say in this example that there's a 99.9% chance that Aznar the kobold will go unnoticed by the PC's, therefore there is a 99.9% chance that the bugbears will be alerted to the PC's presence when their lair is entered.

Is it worth all that to add this if/then scenario to an adventure? I can see some situations where it would be useful, but in others the PC's will never really know that there was a chance that something else could have happened unless the DM metagames and tells them (shame!).

Hopefully I've explained the situation well enough... for those of you who followed it, let me know what your opinion is.

Edit: oh yeah, forgot something... in the above scenario, assume that the route the PC's took was arbitrary, there was a 50/50 chance that they would take either path. (either room 15 or 14 to get to the bugbears' lair)
ImmortalBlueMage
10-30-04, 07:39 PM "If/Then" condtions, as you put them, are very important for dungeon building. They're a big step toward making your dungeon more like a real world and less like just a static gaming environment.
Fixxxer
10-30-04, 07:40 PM I'm not entirely certain I understand what it is we're talking about. (sorry :( ) Is it that you're not certain that straight if/then statements are the best way to go and you might like to see them replaced with statements like "If the PCs enter room 7 and fail a DC 20 Spot check, then..."?
Board_Rider
10-30-04, 07:40 PM I think it it is. For you, the DM, it is up to you to decide. Usually when I read a module or create an adventure I use/add these as I need them. Usually these are only found when the PC's have a different route (as you stated) and thus will help a DM if he finds himself asking,"What happens to the Bugbears and the Rogue if they don't come from room 14, but from 15?". Basically it's just a small note that may help some DM's. Kind of like module backstories in which many PC's will never know that Stableman Steve likes Laura the Laundry Lady. It's flavor that may or may not add to your campaign and style. It's all a guide.

So.....come on over to this side of the fence...the grass is greener,the ladies prettier and the Keg is bottomless ( AND FREEE!!!!!! )

Vote Tally
Yay - 4
Nay - 1
:confused: = Fixxxer (Way to rock the vote Fixxxer!!)
FriendoftheDork
10-30-04, 07:45 PM if the PCs have no idea what's happening, then it is all for naught. Exactly which route the PCs use should not matter overly much, but If/then scenarios should be made for when the PCs choises will matter, and then they should have some idea what either choise will do.

However, if you did set up an ambush where said bugbears assumes the "stoopid humans" enter the room from the south, and then somehow the PCs enter from the north, then you should, on a spur, let the PCs have a chance at ambushing the bugbears.

This is not either or. Sometimes, it's approporiate, sometimes it's a waste of time.
ShadowDragon8685
10-30-04, 08:06 PM Be glad that it wasen't written by DMs who're also programmers. If it was especially late at night when it was written, you'd have the following:

If PC.Enter(14) then Bugbear.Ambush()

Elseif PC.Enter(15) then PC.Ambush()

Elseif PC.Enter() then RollInititive.Roll()

End If

Which, depending on your own personal skills in life, may be gobbledygook, or it may seem completely reasonable.
nekrolog
10-30-04, 08:07 PM I'm not entirely certain I understand what it is we're talking about. (sorry :( ) Is it that you're not certain that straight if/then statements are the best way to go and you might like to see them replaced with statements like "If the PCs enter room 7 and fail a DC 20 Spot check, then..."?

I'm having a tough time explaining this... sorry :embarrass

Cutting to the bottom line, sometimes the PC's will do something that sets conditions for an encounter. Often the PC's never knew that they were doing so, and will never know. It may be, at times, more realistic for a DM to include them, but if the players never know that they affected the encounter in the first place, it's all for the DM's benefit, or just in the name of realism.

So is it worth it to use if/then logic only when the players can find out that they affected something? Is it worth the work to use it just to be more realistic if the players will never know about it? Is it satisfying to some DM's just to see an encounter happen realistically even if the players are none-the-wiser?

The alternative to setting conditions for an encounter would be just to have them pre-scripted when the PC's can't know that they affected anything.

When does it add to the game, and how?
ShadowDragon8685
10-30-04, 08:12 PM In any event, D&D, like real life, should be fluid. There are parameters that are normalized, ie, the dungeon, but there can be compelte and utter variables, or the PCs may do something that nobody could EVER have anticipated.

Example: If the dungeon has a general downward slope, they may go and purchase all the cordwood, oil and other flammable liquids the nearby towns have to offer, and use a Decanter of Endless Water to get a flood of water going down into the dungeon. Into this flood, they pour the oil, light it up and start tossing in the fire. Those creatures that do not die from drowning, burning and smoke inhalation will die when the air is used up, or when they try to run out the exit (probably on fire, Staggered and damaged,) and get mowed down by said PCs.

Or they may find an alternate escape route. Then the PCs simply wait for a few days for the fire to die down, have the Cleric and wizard memorize a metric crapload of "Destroy Water" and "Mending" style spells so they can fix up most things destroyed in the blaze, and they can loot the crap out of it. Chances are most traps will have been destroyed/triggered by the blaze - the bowstrings in arrow traps, as well as the arrows, would have burnt up, though anything entirely metal and/or stone should still be working.
Board_Rider
10-30-04, 08:19 PM Be glad that it wasen't written by DMs who're also programmers. If it was especially late at night when it was written, you'd have the following:
Which, depending on your own personal skills in life, may be gobbledygook, or it may seem completely reasonable.

So is that a Yay or Nay...or are you with Fixxer? I take it your a Nay Friend?

Nekrolog: That is what it is for....realism. Most of the time the PC's will have no clue on the effect of their actions. Sure they may have an idea....but almost always its a gamble. It is for the benefit of th DM that these "if/then" settings are used. However, if after the encounter the PC's look around and realize that if they had taken the Southern door instead of the Northern one, then the Bugbears would have killed them then the realization hits and the "if/then" is more relevant. Depends on how ya spin it.
Fixxxer
10-30-04, 08:29 PM So is that a Yay or Nay...or are you with Fixxer? I take it your a Nay Friend?

Do it! Rock the vote! Stick it to the man! :D
Dash Branaghan
10-30-04, 10:32 PM Nekrolog,

There are thousands of things that we do in our lives that yield options that we do not take. If you wake up in the morning, then you may decide to go for a jog. If you decide to go for a jog, then you may choose to run through the park. If you choose to run through the park, then you may come across the notorious purse snatcher that the police have been trying to capture. If you see the purse snatcher in action, then you can run him down and capture him. If you capture the purse snatcher, then you become a local hero. If you become a local hero, then you get spotted by some big TV exec and have a movie of the week made about you. Etc.

At any time here, when the if changes, the then changes. Obviously. But, if you decide not to go for a jog, then all the if/then options change. But you'll never be aware of what would have happened if you had done something differently.

In that sense, gaming is no different. It really is a list of if/then options. And the PCs don't need to know what is going to happen. So, if the PCs have two doors, and they take the north door and Aznar spots them, the Bugbears are waiting. BUT, if they take the south door, they may catch the Bugbears by surprise and dispatch them. Taking the north door after may lead to Aznar discovering the dead bugbears. But these sorts of things are the meat and bread of the DM.

Make sense? Did I miss the point of this thread? How many licks does it take to get the center of a nymph (or at least make the page soggy)?

Dash
MortalPlague
10-30-04, 11:00 PM I propose an entirely different system. Were I writing the adventure, I'd do it something like this:

There are two entrances to the room. The bugbears that inhabit this room are a surly lot, but they work in cooperation with Aznar. Aznar will send a warning if he sees the PCs coming, and the bugbears will be waiting for them. If the bugbears aren't warned, they'll be caught surprised.
Dash Branaghan
10-30-04, 11:04 PM If the bugbears aren't warned, then they'll be caught surprised.

*Note: Bold added by me.

Not trying to pick MP, but that still comes down to an If/Then statement. So how is that an entirely different system? Remember, in if/then statements (unless you are a programmer), the "then" doesn't have to be included if you phrase it differently.

Dash
Felonious Monk
10-30-04, 11:11 PM I'm often surprised at how clever PCs can be at deducing what the situation was before they busted in. (I am also often surprised by how wrong they can be about the same sort of situation elsewhere.)

I would say, do the if/then thing, if only for yourself, and sometimes, when you least expect it, one PC will say, "Hey! They were looking at the other door! They were going to ambush us! I told you we should always take the left-hand path."

The if/then statements give you an idea of what the monsters are thinking, and that means they are just slightly less cardboard.
Dragonspirit
10-30-04, 11:45 PM It's all about what will add to the story.

Of course, you should reward player for ingenuity (blatant luck is another question). If they suspect an ambush and find another way in (as another poster suggested) then they should have a reasonable chance of that modifying the situation.
Griogre
10-31-04, 12:02 AM I use if/then's only in dungeons that are simi or fully organized. They are basicly an aid to handle complicated interactions betweens multiple groups of monsters or monster leader interactions. In organized dungeons it is very likely the party will be repelled several times before they give up, get killed, or triumph.

The if/then are a convience because they mean I don't have to do much re-writing between the party's attemps because they basically re-set and add varity to how the remaining monsters will respond to the party's next try.
Supercilious
10-31-04, 12:08 AM I prefer making things up as I go, following a general prewritten event/story arc. With only a few MAJOR if/then situations.
Phrennzy
10-31-04, 12:22 AM Ya know, having those little unknowns might make DMing stay fresh for you. I mean, if you always know how the monsters will react in every situation - if you KNOW that there is only one way for things to happen, DMing can get boring.

Adding in those little unknowns makes it stay exciting for you.
The Shaman
10-31-04, 01:31 AM If you wake up in the morning, then you may decide to go for a jog. If you decide to go for a jog, then you may choose to run through the park. If you choose to run through the park, then you may come across the notorious purse snatcher that the police have been trying to capture. If you see the purse snatcher in action, then you can run him down and capture him. If you capture the purse snatcher, then you become a local hero. If you become a local hero, then you get spotted by some big TV exec and have a movie of the week made about you.
Huh. Maybe I'll go for a run in the park tomorrow. I could be a star!

;)

nekrolog, you certainly don't have to go to the trouble of writing this out if you don't want to - just place your monsters and decide on the fly what happens when the PCs enter a room, based on what's transpired during the adventure so far.

For me, I do like to "script" responses since in some cases I don't actually use an adventure for months after I wrote it and I don't want to forget the relationships between monsters and locations, and because it helps me to think through many of the different options that the players are likely to use - of course, I'm right only about 50% of the time, but still, it helps me to improvise more easily if I'm at least a little prepared.
Fixxxer
10-31-04, 01:37 AM *Note: Bold added by me.

Not trying to pick MP, but that still comes down to an If/Then statement.

Agreed. If Aznar sees the PCs, then he will give a warning tot he bugbears. If the bugbears get a warning from Aznar then they will be waiting for the PCs.
WCH
10-31-04, 01:06 AM Excluding actual tactics (coming through air ducts if there are any versus just walking in), I usually arrange for what I want to happen to happen regardless of the rest.

For example, let's say I have a fairly large castle through which the PCs must pass, and there are two (mutually exclusive due to time constraints) routes they must choose between. In the castle, there is an NPC who has been taken prisoner and who I want the PCs to rescue (not one important to that mission, but to a mission later on) -- she will be in one of the wings of the castle, but I won't hesitate to put her in whichever one the PCs go to. After all, the players have no way of knowing the difference, so why sacrifice your best stuff to simple chance?
nekrolog
10-31-04, 01:16 AM Excluding actual tactics (coming through air ducts if there are any versus just walking in), I usually arrange for what I want to happen to happen regardless of the rest.

For example, let's say I have a fairly large castle through which the PCs must pass, and there are two (mutually exclusive due to time constraints) routes they must choose between. In the castle, there is an NPC who has been taken prisoner and who I want the PCs to rescue (not one important to that mission, but to a mission later on) -- she will be in one of the wings of the castle, but I won't hesitate to put her in whichever one the PCs go to. After all, the players have no way of knowing the difference, so why sacrifice your best stuff to simple chance?

This is the line of thinking I'm flirting with. I've DM'd a lot and played a lot over the years, and two types of DM come to mind:

One type of DM will altar the written material to affect course of events to his liking. I'll just call him the "Hollywood DM" because typically he wants his night to be run like a 4 hour feature film. Pacing is important to him, he doesn't want any down time where the PC's actions aren't furthering the plot.

The other DM, the "Purist DM" wants the material to stand no matter what. The Purist will never fudge die rolls, and won't ever save a character for the sake of fun. He wants the game world to exist on its own, he's just the one rolling the dice and telling the PC's what happens next, according to the source information.

To put them together in the context of this thread, the Hollywood DM will think that if/then's are pointless, he'll do whatever will be most exciting when the PC's enter the room. The Purist DM will shun this idea, thinking that the world needs to be governed by common sense. If the DM can't believe in his world as being real, how will his players?

I'm still on the fence. A friend of mine is the ultimate Hollywood DM, and I've typically always strived to be the ultimate Purist DM. I'm second-guessing that now, considering how much work goes into being a real Purist.
Fixxxer
10-31-04, 01:22 AM Ahhh. I think I finally get what it is you're asking.

I've always been a sort of third class of DM. I'm a purist who isn't above the occassional (rare) Hollywood act, if it furthers the plot. There's really no reason you can't be a mix of both...in whatever proportions you see fit at the time to boot.
Adraedan
10-31-04, 01:37 AM Be glad that it wasen't written by DMs who're also programmers. If it was especially late at night when it was written, you'd have the following:

If PC.Enter(14) then Bugbear.Ambush()

Elseif PC.Enter(15) then PC.Ambush()

Elseif PC.Enter() then RollInititive.Roll()

End If

Which, depending on your own personal skills in life, may be gobbledygook, or it may seem completely reasonable.

You bring back the horrors of grade 11 programming...you b@stard
ShadowDragon8685
10-31-04, 02:29 AM I'm a bastard! W00t!

Hey Supercllous, where did the quotes in your signature come from?
MortalPlague
10-31-04, 02:39 AM Fiddlesticks! Dash, you're right.

I'm much more the Hollywood DM than the Purist, though I try to add certain Purist elements to my games anyway. For instance, if I present the players with two paths, I'll decide which one the objective lies down before the PCs choose. However, I'll improvise most of the dungeon on the fly, and I usually do encounters with close attention to the speed and pacing of combat. And I do fudge the occasional roll, but I try to do it as little as possible. Sometimes, to heighten the drama, I'll roll important dice in front of my PCs, preventing me from fudging it at all.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
nekrolog 10-30-04, 07:25 PM	I'm on the fence on this issue, so I'm hoping to start an arguement that will push me over to one side or the other. In a lot of published adventures (dungeon-crawls usually), you'll see text like this for a room: "If the PC's enter this room via room 15, then they were being watched by Aznar the rogue kobold through the eyeslits of the tapestry. The bugbears will have been alerted to their presence. If they entered via room 14, then there is a chance that the bugbears in this room will be surprised when the PC's enter." Lets say in this example that there's a 99.9% chance that Aznar the kobold will go unnoticed by the PC's, therefore there is a 99.9% chance that the bugbears will be alerted to the PC's presence when their lair is entered. Is it worth all that to add this if/then scenario to an adventure? I can see some situations where it would be useful, but in others the PC's will never really know that there was a chance that something else could have happened unless the DM metagames and tells them (shame!). Hopefully I've explained the situation well enough... for those of you who followed it, let me know what your opinion is. Edit: oh yeah, forgot something... in the above scenario, assume that the route the PC's took was arbitrary, there was a 50/50 chance that they would take either path. (either room 15 or 14 to get to the bugbears' lair)
ImmortalBlueMage 10-30-04, 07:39 PM	"If/Then" condtions, as you put them, are very important for dungeon building. They're a big step toward making your dungeon more like a real world and less like just a static gaming environment.
Fixxxer 10-30-04, 07:40 PM	I'm not entirely certain I understand what it is we're talking about. (sorry :( ) Is it that you're not certain that straight if/then statements are the best way to go and you might like to see them replaced with statements like "If the PCs enter room 7 and fail a DC 20 Spot check, then..."?
Board_Rider 10-30-04, 07:40 PM	I think it it is. For you, the DM, it is up to you to decide. Usually when I read a module or create an adventure I use/add these as I need them. Usually these are only found when the PC's have a different route (as you stated) and thus will help a DM if he finds himself asking,"What happens to the Bugbears and the Rogue if they don't come from room 14, but from 15?". Basically it's just a small note that may help some DM's. Kind of like module backstories in which many PC's will never know that Stableman Steve likes Laura the Laundry Lady. It's flavor that may or may not add to your campaign and style. It's all a guide. So.....come on over to this side of the fence...the grass is greener,the ladies prettier and the Keg is bottomless ( AND FREEE!!!!!! ) Vote Tally Yay - 4 Nay - 1 :confused: = Fixxxer (Way to rock the vote Fixxxer!!)
FriendoftheDork 10-30-04, 07:45 PM	if the PCs have no idea what's happening, then it is all for naught. Exactly which route the PCs use should not matter overly much, but If/then scenarios should be made for when the PCs choises will matter, and then they should have some idea what either choise will do. However, if you did set up an ambush where said bugbears assumes the "stoopid humans" enter the room from the south, and then somehow the PCs enter from the north, then you should, on a spur, let the PCs have a chance at ambushing the bugbears. This is not either or. Sometimes, it's approporiate, sometimes it's a waste of time.
ShadowDragon8685 10-30-04, 08:06 PM	Be glad that it wasen't written by DMs who're also programmers. If it was especially late at night when it was written, you'd have the following: If PC.Enter(14) then Bugbear.Ambush() Elseif PC.Enter(15) then PC.Ambush() Elseif PC.Enter() then RollInititive.Roll() End If Which, depending on your own personal skills in life, may be gobbledygook, or it may seem completely reasonable.
nekrolog 10-30-04, 08:07 PM	I'm not entirely certain I understand what it is we're talking about. (sorry :( ) Is it that you're not certain that straight if/then statements are the best way to go and you might like to see them replaced with statements like "If the PCs enter room 7 and fail a DC 20 Spot check, then..."? I'm having a tough time explaining this... sorry :embarrass Cutting to the bottom line, sometimes the PC's will do something that sets conditions for an encounter. Often the PC's never knew that they were doing so, and will never know. It may be, at times, more realistic for a DM to include them, but if the players never know that they affected the encounter in the first place, it's all for the DM's benefit, or just in the name of realism. So is it worth it to use if/then logic only when the players can find out that they affected something? Is it worth the work to use it just to be more realistic if the players will never know about it? Is it satisfying to some DM's just to see an encounter happen realistically even if the players are none-the-wiser? The alternative to setting conditions for an encounter would be just to have them pre-scripted when the PC's can't know that they affected anything. When does it add to the game, and how?
ShadowDragon8685 10-30-04, 08:12 PM	In any event, D&D, like real life, should be fluid. There are parameters that are normalized, ie, the dungeon, but there can be compelte and utter variables, or the PCs may do something that nobody could EVER have anticipated. Example: If the dungeon has a general downward slope, they may go and purchase all the cordwood, oil and other flammable liquids the nearby towns have to offer, and use a Decanter of Endless Water to get a flood of water going down into the dungeon. Into this flood, they pour the oil, light it up and start tossing in the fire. Those creatures that do not die from drowning, burning and smoke inhalation will die when the air is used up, or when they try to run out the exit (probably on fire, Staggered and damaged,) and get mowed down by said PCs. Or they may find an alternate escape route. Then the PCs simply wait for a few days for the fire to die down, have the Cleric and wizard memorize a metric crapload of "Destroy Water" and "Mending" style spells so they can fix up most things destroyed in the blaze, and they can loot the crap out of it. Chances are most traps will have been destroyed/triggered by the blaze - the bowstrings in arrow traps, as well as the arrows, would have burnt up, though anything entirely metal and/or stone should still be working.
Board_Rider 10-30-04, 08:19 PM	Be glad that it wasen't written by DMs who're also programmers. If it was especially late at night when it was written, you'd have the following: Which, depending on your own personal skills in life, may be gobbledygook, or it may seem completely reasonable. So is that a Yay or Nay...or are you with Fixxer? I take it your a Nay Friend? Nekrolog: That is what it is for....realism. Most of the time the PC's will have no clue on the effect of their actions. Sure they may have an idea....but almost always its a gamble. It is for the benefit of th DM that these "if/then" settings are used. However, if after the encounter the PC's look around and realize that if they had taken the Southern door instead of the Northern one, then the Bugbears would have killed them then the realization hits and the "if/then" is more relevant. Depends on how ya spin it.
Fixxxer 10-30-04, 08:29 PM	So is that a Yay or Nay...or are you with Fixxer? I take it your a Nay Friend? Do it! Rock the vote! Stick it to the man! :D
Dash Branaghan 10-30-04, 10:32 PM	Nekrolog, There are thousands of things that we do in our lives that yield options that we do not take. If you wake up in the morning, then you may decide to go for a jog. If you decide to go for a jog, then you may choose to run through the park. If you choose to run through the park, then you may come across the notorious purse snatcher that the police have been trying to capture. If you see the purse snatcher in action, then you can run him down and capture him. If you capture the purse snatcher, then you become a local hero. If you become a local hero, then you get spotted by some big TV exec and have a movie of the week made about you. Etc. At any time here, when the if changes, the then changes. Obviously. But, if you decide not to go for a jog, then all the if/then options change. But you'll never be aware of what would have happened if you had done something differently. In that sense, gaming is no different. It really is a list of if/then options. And the PCs don't need to know what is going to happen. So, if the PCs have two doors, and they take the north door and Aznar spots them, the Bugbears are waiting. BUT, if they take the south door, they may catch the Bugbears by surprise and dispatch them. Taking the north door after may lead to Aznar discovering the dead bugbears. But these sorts of things are the meat and bread of the DM. Make sense? Did I miss the point of this thread? How many licks does it take to get the center of a nymph (or at least make the page soggy)? Dash
MortalPlague 10-30-04, 11:00 PM	I propose an entirely different system. Were I writing the adventure, I'd do it something like this: There are two entrances to the room. The bugbears that inhabit this room are a surly lot, but they work in cooperation with Aznar. Aznar will send a warning if he sees the PCs coming, and the bugbears will be waiting for them. If the bugbears aren't warned, they'll be caught surprised.
Dash Branaghan 10-30-04, 11:04 PM	If the bugbears aren't warned, then they'll be caught surprised. *Note: Bold added by me. Not trying to pick MP, but that still comes down to an If/Then statement. So how is that an entirely different system? Remember, in if/then statements (unless you are a programmer), the "then" doesn't have to be included if you phrase it differently. Dash
Felonious Monk 10-30-04, 11:11 PM	I'm often surprised at how clever PCs can be at deducing what the situation was before they busted in. (I am also often surprised by how wrong they can be about the same sort of situation elsewhere.) I would say, do the if/then thing, if only for yourself, and sometimes, when you least expect it, one PC will say, "Hey! They were looking at the other door! They were going to ambush us! I told you we should always take the left-hand path." The if/then statements give you an idea of what the monsters are thinking, and that means they are just slightly less cardboard.
Dragonspirit 10-30-04, 11:45 PM	It's all about what will add to the story. Of course, you should reward player for ingenuity (blatant luck is another question). If they suspect an ambush and find another way in (as another poster suggested) then they should have a reasonable chance of that modifying the situation.
Griogre 10-31-04, 12:02 AM	I use if/then's only in dungeons that are simi or fully organized. They are basicly an aid to handle complicated interactions betweens multiple groups of monsters or monster leader interactions. In organized dungeons it is very likely the party will be repelled several times before they give up, get killed, or triumph. The if/then are a convience because they mean I don't have to do much re-writing between the party's attemps because they basically re-set and add varity to how the remaining monsters will respond to the party's next try.
Supercilious 10-31-04, 12:08 AM	I prefer making things up as I go, following a general prewritten event/story arc. With only a few MAJOR if/then situations.
Phrennzy 10-31-04, 12:22 AM	Ya know, having those little unknowns might make DMing stay fresh for you. I mean, if you always know how the monsters will react in every situation - if you KNOW that there is only one way for things to happen, DMing can get boring. Adding in those little unknowns makes it stay exciting for you.
The Shaman 10-31-04, 01:31 AM	If you wake up in the morning, then you may decide to go for a jog. If you decide to go for a jog, then you may choose to run through the park. If you choose to run through the park, then you may come across the notorious purse snatcher that the police have been trying to capture. If you see the purse snatcher in action, then you can run him down and capture him. If you capture the purse snatcher, then you become a local hero. If you become a local hero, then you get spotted by some big TV exec and have a movie of the week made about you. Huh. Maybe I'll go for a run in the park tomorrow. I could be a star! ;) nekrolog, you certainly don't have to go to the trouble of writing this out if you don't want to - just place your monsters and decide on the fly what happens when the PCs enter a room, based on what's transpired during the adventure so far. For me, I do like to "script" responses since in some cases I don't actually use an adventure for months after I wrote it and I don't want to forget the relationships between monsters and locations, and because it helps me to think through many of the different options that the players are likely to use - of course, I'm right only about 50% of the time, but still, it helps me to improvise more easily if I'm at least a little prepared.
Fixxxer 10-31-04, 01:37 AM	*Note: Bold added by me. Not trying to pick MP, but that still comes down to an If/Then statement. Agreed. If Aznar sees the PCs, then he will give a warning tot he bugbears. If the bugbears get a warning from Aznar then they will be waiting for the PCs.
WCH 10-31-04, 01:06 AM	Excluding actual tactics (coming through air ducts if there are any versus just walking in), I usually arrange for what I want to happen to happen regardless of the rest. For example, let's say I have a fairly large castle through which the PCs must pass, and there are two (mutually exclusive due to time constraints) routes they must choose between. In the castle, there is an NPC who has been taken prisoner and who I want the PCs to rescue (not one important to that mission, but to a mission later on) -- she will be in one of the wings of the castle, but I won't hesitate to put her in whichever one the PCs go to. After all, the players have no way of knowing the difference, so why sacrifice your best stuff to simple chance?
nekrolog 10-31-04, 01:16 AM	Excluding actual tactics (coming through air ducts if there are any versus just walking in), I usually arrange for what I want to happen to happen regardless of the rest. For example, let's say I have a fairly large castle through which the PCs must pass, and there are two (mutually exclusive due to time constraints) routes they must choose between. In the castle, there is an NPC who has been taken prisoner and who I want the PCs to rescue (not one important to that mission, but to a mission later on) -- she will be in one of the wings of the castle, but I won't hesitate to put her in whichever one the PCs go to. After all, the players have no way of knowing the difference, so why sacrifice your best stuff to simple chance? This is the line of thinking I'm flirting with. I've DM'd a lot and played a lot over the years, and two types of DM come to mind: One type of DM will altar the written material to affect course of events to his liking. I'll just call him the "Hollywood DM" because typically he wants his night to be run like a 4 hour feature film. Pacing is important to him, he doesn't want any down time where the PC's actions aren't furthering the plot. The other DM, the "Purist DM" wants the material to stand no matter what. The Purist will never fudge die rolls, and won't ever save a character for the sake of fun. He wants the game world to exist on its own, he's just the one rolling the dice and telling the PC's what happens next, according to the source information. To put them together in the context of this thread, the Hollywood DM will think that if/then's are pointless, he'll do whatever will be most exciting when the PC's enter the room. The Purist DM will shun this idea, thinking that the world needs to be governed by common sense. If the DM can't believe in his world as being real, how will his players? I'm still on the fence. A friend of mine is the ultimate Hollywood DM, and I've typically always strived to be the ultimate Purist DM. I'm second-guessing that now, considering how much work goes into being a real Purist.
Fixxxer 10-31-04, 01:22 AM	Ahhh. I think I finally get what it is you're asking. I've always been a sort of third class of DM. I'm a purist who isn't above the occassional (rare) Hollywood act, if it furthers the plot. There's really no reason you can't be a mix of both...in whatever proportions you see fit at the time to boot.
Adraedan 10-31-04, 01:37 AM	Be glad that it wasen't written by DMs who're also programmers. If it was especially late at night when it was written, you'd have the following: If PC.Enter(14) then Bugbear.Ambush() Elseif PC.Enter(15) then PC.Ambush() Elseif PC.Enter() then RollInititive.Roll() End If Which, depending on your own personal skills in life, may be gobbledygook, or it may seem completely reasonable. You bring back the horrors of grade 11 programming...you b@stard
ShadowDragon8685 10-31-04, 02:29 AM	I'm a bastard! W00t! Hey Supercllous, where did the quotes in your signature come from?
MortalPlague 10-31-04, 02:39 AM	Fiddlesticks! Dash, you're right. I'm much more the Hollywood DM than the Purist, though I try to add certain Purist elements to my games anyway. For instance, if I present the players with two paths, I'll decide which one the objective lies down before the PCs choose. However, I'll improvise most of the dungeon on the fly, and I usually do encounters with close attention to the speed and pacing of combat. And I do fudge the occasional roll, but I try to do it as little as possible. Sometimes, to heighten the drama, I'll roll important dice in front of my PCs, preventing me from fudging it at all.