"Iron heart Surge" (ToB): should I make an issue of it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Iron heart Surge" (ToB): should I make an issue of it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nicholas the Paladin
12-08-07, 09:19 AM Hi Guys,
I'm currently running a 5th level group and am doing fine. I see some players take feats/abilities that I have my doubts about, and I talk about it with the player. Recently I said 'no' to 'Craven' for a Rogue-character and now I'm considering the "iron heart surge" for a 5th level Warblade.

He's a Warblade who's focussing on the 'tiger claw' school. But besides some offensive maneuvers, he's mainly choosing protective maneuvers (moment of perfect mind, action before thought) and this one.

The "iron heart surge" let's you 'dispell' one spell ór condition with a standard action. I would consider that a minor Dispell Magic with automatic success, that álso can dispell conditions. On top of that, a Dispell Magic that is refreshed with a simple swift action. It's a bit too much.

I get the feeling that this player can overcome almost any spell with these maneuvers and the "iron heart surge" in particular.

Am I correct to worry? Should I make an issue out of it?
runestar
12-08-07, 09:38 AM You could start by ironing out with the player just what you would allow it to remove, and what you would not allow, despite what the ability states.

By a literal reading, it removes any condition with a duration, including poison, disease, negative lvs, even an AMF or epic spells! Narrowing the list is a good way to begin.:P
Avatar of Kokusho
12-08-07, 10:47 AM IHS is areally good...and poorly worded. Add death to list list of RAW conditions it can supposedly get rid of; I had someone try this one on me once (obviously, it didn't work -_-).

As long as it's made clear what it can and cannot remove, it's not that bad. My personal ruling is that you have to at least be in charge of your own mind (no negating Dominate effects, but charm is possible) and be conscious. Getting rid of AMF is definitely a new one for me...
Dragonsblood
12-08-07, 02:45 PM I'd let it remove effects with an actual duration, and not permanent or damage effects like disease, ability damage, and negative levels.

Remember that when balancing ToB, you should use casters as your benchmark and not fighters.
CryoSilver
12-08-07, 03:02 PM Also note that it is a standard action to use IHS; if the warblade can't take actions (asleep, stunned, etc) he can't use IHS.
Mandarbgrim
12-08-07, 05:36 PM Q: Dear Sage,
What exactly can or can’t iron heart surge (Tome of Battle p68) remove?
--Franco
A: Instantaneous effects can’t be removed by iron heart surge. However, any effect with a duration of 1 or more rounds, including permanent-duration spells or effects, may be removed by iron heart surge, nor does iron heart surge restore damage, ability burn, or ability drain. (Because ability burn can't be healed magically or psionically, it would be safe to assume that it can't be healed through maneuvers either.)
Iron heart surge doesn’t replace lost levels (though it would remove any negative levels resulting from a single spell or effect). It would neutralize a single poison coursing through your system, or a single disease that afflicted you.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13144675&postcount=5
Mindolin
12-08-07, 05:52 PM Also, there are weakness to Iron Heart Surge. All you need to do is hit him with a number of Negative levels. Enough of them, and he won't be able to use IHS to get rid of them because he won't even be able to access IHS, thus riddiing you of that problem.
Hippokrene
12-08-07, 11:16 PM According to the errata, Iron Heart Surge can dispell an antimagic zone. Yeah, it's broken.
danielinthewolvesden
12-09-07, 12:25 AM The Warblade can only have 4 Manuevers readied (at that level). If he has IHS readied, that means he does not have another, usually more useful manuever readied (for example the +3D6 Damage strike:cool: ). And the Warblade only knows 6 manuavers, and only two at that level.

If you were a spellcaster, would you kiss off 25% of your known spells AND spell slots for this?

I am playing a Warblade, and kept this readied for several months, and never had a chance to use it. When I finally did, yes, the DM thought it was overpowered. He did not require me to get rid of it, but I offered to as I wanted to game test more of the options.
Some Like It Hot
12-09-07, 01:54 AM It's not that bad. Another caveat, in addition to the "able to take actions" bit, is that you have to be able to move freely. So, entangling, grappling, binding, etc will all alter the maneuver's utility.

The primary usefulness of the maneuver, in my experience, is that it conserves spells. Saving neutralize poison and dispel magic for other, less well defended compatriots. It's ability to remove an antimagic field is fun, IMHO. Show those casters what's what, in a most surprising manner. Of course, an initiator loses relatively little power while inside an antimagic field anyway, so it's usually not a big deal.

I'd allow it, mostly because a Warblade generally has so few maneuvers to work with anyway. One that is very useful every once in awhile is a pretty significant choice at that level.
Nicholas the Paladin
12-09-07, 09:41 AM okay, it's good to know that you think IHS is okay, whén applied within boundaries. To be honest, I was almost banning this manuever form the game.

What I understand is that it removes spells like Slow, Hold Person and such. And it removes conditions like Fatigued, Sickened, Nauseated... and no other funky stuff. I didn't had the feeling the player wanted to make abuse of this maneuver (but on the other hand, he didn't use it yet).
I resent the use of IHS for anti-magic fields. I would never allow it. I also wouldn't allow negative levels to be removed. It's too much. As for literal reading of IHS: I try to use my common sense.

Someone remarked that I had to compare the WB-maneuver with wizards and not with fighters (that doens't feel well with me). Well, Mages cast Dipell Magic that a) only applies to spells (nót conditions) and b) has about 50% of failing (casterlevel check!). Okay, it only applies to you and not an area on multiple spells (like dispell magic)..... but I still consider this manuever to be very powerfull: it works évery time.

Even though I at first had the feeling that even the power to remove those conditions was overpowered, I can live with it for now. Actually, I still do feel a bit awkward about it.... but seeing that the Warblade does't have that many Maneuvers and has to choose ...makes it okay.

thanks for your input!
Avatar of Kokusho
12-09-07, 10:40 AM An idea: make thw warblade use an initiator level check to attempt to remove conditions that you're uncomfortable with. DC= 11+ caster level of the condition. That makes it more like Dispel Magic in that respect. Max him out at +10 to his check, just like dispel magic, and when he reaches 11th level, treat it like Greater Dispel Magic.
danielinthewolvesden
12-09-07, 12:42 PM Someone remarked that I had to compare the WB-maneuver with wizards and not with fighters (that doens't feel well with me). Well, Mages cast Dipell Magic that a) only applies to spells (nót conditions) and b) has about 50% of failing (casterlevel check!). Okay, it only applies to you and not an area on multiple spells (like dispell magic)..... but I still consider this manuever to be very powerfull: it works évery time.

But think about a new type of Wizard, who could cast each spell he memorized multiple times a day, but still had to put aside a "slot"for each one. How many would choose "Dispel Magic' @3rd as HALF their known and usable 3rd level spells?
Avatar of Kokusho
12-09-07, 12:54 PM A paranoid abjurer, maybe.:D :D I myself wouldn't require this, but for DMs that have reservations about this sort of thing, it could be an option.
Echodork
12-09-07, 01:04 PM Dispel Magic is significantly more powerful than IHS. Yes, it requires a caster level check to avoid failure, but IHS only affects personal conditions. Dispel Magic can neutralize area effects like Magic Circle or Unhallow, it can dispel summoned creatures, it removes buffs from your enemies, and it can even be used as an all-purpose counterspell. IHS is very good at what it does, but as long as you're judicious about what it affects (poison, disease, sickening) and what it doesn't affect (AMF, ability drain), you should be ok.
ravenshrike
12-09-07, 01:51 PM It's not that bad. Another caveat, in addition to the "able to take actions" bit, is that you have to be able to move freely. So, entangling, grappling, binding, etc will all alter the maneuver's utility.

No, you just have to be able to move somewhat. Otherwise Wolverine stance would be utterly useless. So unless you're considered helpless, you can use it. As for the 'dead' condition, since you can't move then, it's safe to assume you can't use IHS.
Voran
12-09-07, 02:18 PM At first glance, I was like: Whoa, that's too much. On further consideration and a couple chances to play it out, you come to the realization that IHS is nice for 'down time recovery'. Pretty much at the end of any fight, he can quickly dispel any debuffs on himself. Aside from negative levels and the like, the IHS'er will be pretty 'clean' the moments after a fight, assuming he's not dead from regular damage, etc.

The warblade has the best recovery, a swift action followed by an attack or a standard action flourish, the swordsage is probably next, with a fullround action of 'do nothing but meditate', with the crusader last with 'everything refreshes after 5 or 6 rounds, generally' plus the crusader doesn't usually get Iron Heart.

For the warblade, they can't use any new manuevers during that round they're recovering spent ones, so their attack (if in melee range) would be generic (pretty much) instead of one of their flashier, harder hitting maneuver attacks. Likewise for the purposes of a standard action, you've rooted them in place for their flourish. They still get a move action, but can't double move or do a full-round action.

The swordsage is a sitting duck for 1 round.

In a way, its possible to lock the warblade or swordsage into a semi-locked cycle, assuming they keep wanting to burn IHS in combat. The time they spend recovering is time you can damage them, or worse debuff them more :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 12-08-07, 09:19 AM	Hi Guys, I'm currently running a 5th level group and am doing fine. I see some players take feats/abilities that I have my doubts about, and I talk about it with the player. Recently I said 'no' to 'Craven' for a Rogue-character and now I'm considering the "iron heart surge" for a 5th level Warblade. He's a Warblade who's focussing on the 'tiger claw' school. But besides some offensive maneuvers, he's mainly choosing protective maneuvers (moment of perfect mind, action before thought) and this one. The "iron heart surge" let's you 'dispell' one spell ór condition with a standard action. I would consider that a minor Dispell Magic with automatic success, that álso can dispell conditions. On top of that, a Dispell Magic that is refreshed with a simple swift action. It's a bit too much. I get the feeling that this player can overcome almost any spell with these maneuvers and the "iron heart surge" in particular. Am I correct to worry? Should I make an issue out of it?
runestar 12-08-07, 09:38 AM	You could start by ironing out with the player just what you would allow it to remove, and what you would not allow, despite what the ability states. By a literal reading, it removes any condition with a duration, including poison, disease, negative lvs, even an AMF or epic spells! Narrowing the list is a good way to begin.:P
Avatar of Kokusho 12-08-07, 10:47 AM	IHS is areally good...and poorly worded. Add death to list list of RAW conditions it can supposedly get rid of; I had someone try this one on me once (obviously, it didn't work -_-). As long as it's made clear what it can and cannot remove, it's not that bad. My personal ruling is that you have to at least be in charge of your own mind (no negating Dominate effects, but charm is possible) and be conscious. Getting rid of AMF is definitely a new one for me...
Dragonsblood 12-08-07, 02:45 PM	I'd let it remove effects with an actual duration, and not permanent or damage effects like disease, ability damage, and negative levels. Remember that when balancing ToB, you should use casters as your benchmark and not fighters.
CryoSilver 12-08-07, 03:02 PM	Also note that it is a standard action to use IHS; if the warblade can't take actions (asleep, stunned, etc) he can't use IHS.
Mandarbgrim 12-08-07, 05:36 PM	Q: Dear Sage, What exactly can or can’t iron heart surge (Tome of Battle p68) remove? --Franco A: Instantaneous effects can’t be removed by iron heart surge. However, any effect with a duration of 1 or more rounds, including permanent-duration spells or effects, may be removed by iron heart surge, nor does iron heart surge restore damage, ability burn, or ability drain. (Because ability burn can't be healed magically or psionically, it would be safe to assume that it can't be healed through maneuvers either.) Iron heart surge doesn’t replace lost levels (though it would remove any negative levels resulting from a single spell or effect). It would neutralize a single poison coursing through your system, or a single disease that afflicted you. http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13144675&postcount=5
Mindolin 12-08-07, 05:52 PM	Also, there are weakness to Iron Heart Surge. All you need to do is hit him with a number of Negative levels. Enough of them, and he won't be able to use IHS to get rid of them because he won't even be able to access IHS, thus riddiing you of that problem.
Hippokrene 12-08-07, 11:16 PM	According to the errata, Iron Heart Surge can dispell an antimagic zone. Yeah, it's broken.
danielinthewolvesden 12-09-07, 12:25 AM	The Warblade can only have 4 Manuevers readied (at that level). If he has IHS readied, that means he does not have another, usually more useful manuever readied (for example the +3D6 Damage strike:cool: ). And the Warblade only knows 6 manuavers, and only two at that level. If you were a spellcaster, would you kiss off 25% of your known spells AND spell slots for this? I am playing a Warblade, and kept this readied for several months, and never had a chance to use it. When I finally did, yes, the DM thought it was overpowered. He did not require me to get rid of it, but I offered to as I wanted to game test more of the options.
Some Like It Hot 12-09-07, 01:54 AM	It's not that bad. Another caveat, in addition to the "able to take actions" bit, is that you have to be able to move freely. So, entangling, grappling, binding, etc will all alter the maneuver's utility. The primary usefulness of the maneuver, in my experience, is that it conserves spells. Saving neutralize poison and dispel magic for other, less well defended compatriots. It's ability to remove an antimagic field is fun, IMHO. Show those casters what's what, in a most surprising manner. Of course, an initiator loses relatively little power while inside an antimagic field anyway, so it's usually not a big deal. I'd allow it, mostly because a Warblade generally has so few maneuvers to work with anyway. One that is very useful every once in awhile is a pretty significant choice at that level.
Nicholas the Paladin 12-09-07, 09:41 AM	okay, it's good to know that you think IHS is okay, whén applied within boundaries. To be honest, I was almost banning this manuever form the game. What I understand is that it removes spells like Slow, Hold Person and such. And it removes conditions like Fatigued, Sickened, Nauseated... and no other funky stuff. I didn't had the feeling the player wanted to make abuse of this maneuver (but on the other hand, he didn't use it yet). I resent the use of IHS for anti-magic fields. I would never allow it. I also wouldn't allow negative levels to be removed. It's too much. As for literal reading of IHS: I try to use my common sense. Someone remarked that I had to compare the WB-maneuver with wizards and not with fighters (that doens't feel well with me). Well, Mages cast Dipell Magic that a) only applies to spells (nót conditions) and b) has about 50% of failing (casterlevel check!). Okay, it only applies to you and not an area on multiple spells (like dispell magic)..... but I still consider this manuever to be very powerfull: it works évery time. Even though I at first had the feeling that even the power to remove those conditions was overpowered, I can live with it for now. Actually, I still do feel a bit awkward about it.... but seeing that the Warblade does't have that many Maneuvers and has to choose ...makes it okay. thanks for your input!
Avatar of Kokusho 12-09-07, 10:40 AM	An idea: make thw warblade use an initiator level check to attempt to remove conditions that you're uncomfortable with. DC= 11+ caster level of the condition. That makes it more like Dispel Magic in that respect. Max him out at +10 to his check, just like dispel magic, and when he reaches 11th level, treat it like Greater Dispel Magic.
danielinthewolvesden 12-09-07, 12:42 PM	Someone remarked that I had to compare the WB-maneuver with wizards and not with fighters (that doens't feel well with me). Well, Mages cast Dipell Magic that a) only applies to spells (nót conditions) and b) has about 50% of failing (casterlevel check!). Okay, it only applies to you and not an area on multiple spells (like dispell magic)..... but I still consider this manuever to be very powerfull: it works évery time. But think about a new type of Wizard, who could cast each spell he memorized multiple times a day, but still had to put aside a "slot"for each one. How many would choose "Dispel Magic' @3rd as HALF their known and usable 3rd level spells?
Avatar of Kokusho 12-09-07, 12:54 PM	A paranoid abjurer, maybe.:D :D I myself wouldn't require this, but for DMs that have reservations about this sort of thing, it could be an option.
Echodork 12-09-07, 01:04 PM	Dispel Magic is significantly more powerful than IHS. Yes, it requires a caster level check to avoid failure, but IHS only affects personal conditions. Dispel Magic can neutralize area effects like Magic Circle or Unhallow, it can dispel summoned creatures, it removes buffs from your enemies, and it can even be used as an all-purpose counterspell. IHS is very good at what it does, but as long as you're judicious about what it affects (poison, disease, sickening) and what it doesn't affect (AMF, ability drain), you should be ok.
ravenshrike 12-09-07, 01:51 PM	It's not that bad. Another caveat, in addition to the "able to take actions" bit, is that you have to be able to move freely. So, entangling, grappling, binding, etc will all alter the maneuver's utility. No, you just have to be able to move somewhat. Otherwise Wolverine stance would be utterly useless. So unless you're considered helpless, you can use it. As for the 'dead' condition, since you can't move then, it's safe to assume you can't use IHS.
Voran 12-09-07, 02:18 PM	At first glance, I was like: Whoa, that's too much. On further consideration and a couple chances to play it out, you come to the realization that IHS is nice for 'down time recovery'. Pretty much at the end of any fight, he can quickly dispel any debuffs on himself. Aside from negative levels and the like, the IHS'er will be pretty 'clean' the moments after a fight, assuming he's not dead from regular damage, etc. The warblade has the best recovery, a swift action followed by an attack or a standard action flourish, the swordsage is probably next, with a fullround action of 'do nothing but meditate', with the crusader last with 'everything refreshes after 5 or 6 rounds, generally' plus the crusader doesn't usually get Iron Heart. For the warblade, they can't use any new manuevers during that round they're recovering spent ones, so their attack (if in melee range) would be generic (pretty much) instead of one of their flashier, harder hitting maneuver attacks. Likewise for the purposes of a standard action, you've rooted them in place for their flourish. They still get a move action, but can't double move or do a full-round action. The swordsage is a sitting duck for 1 round. In a way, its possible to lock the warblade or swordsage into a semi-locked cycle, assuming they keep wanting to burn IHS in combat. The time they spend recovering is time you can damage them, or worse debuff them more :)