Post/Author/DateTime	Post
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-19-04, 02:22 AM	My party, not counting cohorts: 2 - Wiz11 1 - Rog11 1 - Pal11 1 - Rog5/Pal3 2 - Rgr8 1 - NPC Wiz11 I've got a party of 7 PCs, 4 of which are Min/Maxers, and 1 of which is a dirty little Munchkin. Ordinarily I don't mind them making uber-gross characters. In fact, I encourage it (as long as it makes sense). Adventurers are heroes, i.e. legendary, i.e. definitely above average. However, my heroes complain that my encounters are too tough because the monsters hit them about as reliably as they hit the monsters. I think part of their problem is that they don't know how to manage resources properly for combat. Usually they pour everything into their first encounter, and then have severe trouble with their second and third ones as they're running out of stuff (spells, special abilities/day, etc.). Case in point: a fire giant got smited for approximately 85 points of damage, sneak attacked for about 30, fireballed twice (total probably around 60-70ish), and was just hanging on by a couple hit points when one of the wizards wanted to finish it off with a Cone of Cold. Is there any way I can teach them to use appropriate resources without forcing a TPK?
Dauntless 10-19-04, 02:37 AM	The fire giant got fireballed? Twice? Do your wizards use cones of cold on white dragons also? It seems like much of their problems are of their own making.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-19-04, 02:39 AM	The fire giant got fireballed? Twice? Oops, forgot to mention that was a Sonic Fireball. (All three wizards have Energy Substitution(sonic).)
Dauntless 10-19-04, 02:50 AM	It should be noted that in the miniatures handbook, they printed a feat which is basically identical to Energy Substitution, with the exception that it CANNOT sub for sonic. Psionic powers which can use different energy types specifically do LESS damage when doing sonic. This is another unfortunate example of WotC not completely thinking things through when they were making the initial line of splatbooks. Virtually nothing has resistance to Sonic. Normally this isn't a problem (consider how many spells in the PHB naturally do sonic damage, and check to see how much they deal), but in the case of Energy Sub, it becomes a problem. Back on topic: Their lack of a primary healer (unless you count the paladins and rangers) probably is disuading the party from being drawn into more protracted melee combats. Also their favoring of evocation shows that while they may be min-maxing munchkins, they aren't very good at it. Nearly any wizard worth his spellbook should know that in general they are better off using indirect spells to say, buff up the paladins and rangers even more, so they can deal out more damage over time, rather than blow a spell slot on an evocation.
spasheridan 10-19-04, 03:20 AM	unfortunatly, at this level, there really isn't much time control you can use. At 11th level yer wizards are capable of teleport so they can leave at will. Rope trick lasts 11 hours per casting so the party can shimmy up their ropes and hide at will as well. Tough to force them to stick it out and face encounters 3 and 4 for the day. A few things to try: 1) Time sensitive missions. "Please stop the necromancer, he's in this temple. He's going to do (insert evil thing here) and you need to stop him by tomorrow night. In his dungeon there are (list 10 encounters worth of baddies). If you don't stop him in time he will become a (really powerful ala CR 19 or so) and he will kick yer but" 2) Tactics. Yer PC's are up in levels, they are notorious now. Baddies do things like send in a wave of redshirts to eat the first few super spells. Orcs polymorphed into giants work well. Magelings with wands of dispel magic to counter the wizards. Archers with arrows and silence cast onto them are usefull for slowing down wizards. 3) High SR enemies. This is a real nerf to the spellcasters if they are blasters, but it's the price you pay for specilizing. If I were you I would ditch the NPC, the party has enough people in it. I would kill the cohorts with some area effect nukes and not let new ones in for a while. I imagine the main reason PCs throw 100% at the first baddy they see is that in a biog group like this people steal the spotlight often. With so many characters there isn't much chance for anyone to shine. WHittle down the group and pace the encounters more, and maybe... maybe.. talk to the PCs and explain that the game is changing soon and they should expect to see more than 1 encounter a day.
Zao Fato 10-19-04, 04:18 AM	I know your problem, I have the same one, although my group is now only 5 in size. The Party 1 Human Barbarian 1 Human Caviler 1 Winged Elf...everything, I think he just finished Shou Disiple: LA:+3 1 Elf Favoured Soul and 1 Chiro's* Fighter Barbarian of Thor: LA:+3 All Lvl 19 or 16 with LA *A Chiro's is a large cat creature that I created for my World. I based it off a creature in the races of Faerum Book Now the thing is, that on occasion they just walk through things, like they killed a CR 21 Black Dragon in 2 Turns. After that I decided to beef my Monsters up, and I notice the opposite from them on occassion, the longer the fight the better they get. But they still have the problem with more than 2 fights. By the time they get to the boss, they are all, well, nearly fatigued to say it, they have used all there big spells, etc... This has only been the case since the Wizard/Eldrich Knight left, as the party for some reason started functioning better, and apart from the Wizard almost never casting a spell...( Whats the point in being a Wizard then...), the way they fight battles is not very much different.
Grayson 10-19-04, 06:57 AM	unfortunatly, at this level, there really isn't much time control you can use. At 11th level yer wizards are capable of teleport so they can leave at will. Rope trick lasts 11 hours per casting so the party can shimmy up their ropes and hide at will as well. Tough to force them to stick it out and face encounters 3 and 4 for the day. A few things to try: 1) Time sensitive missions. "Please stop the necromancer, he's in this temple. He's going to do (insert evil thing here) and you need to stop him by tomorrow night. In his dungeon there are (list 10 encounters worth of baddies). If you don't stop him in time he will become a (really powerful ala CR 19 or so) and he will kick yer but" 2) Tactics. Yer PC's are up in levels, they are notorious now. Baddies do things like send in a wave of redshirts to eat the first few super spells. Orcs polymorphed into giants work well. Magelings with wands of dispel magic to counter the wizards. Archers with arrows and silence cast onto them are usefull for slowing down wizards. 3) High SR enemies. This is a real nerf to the spellcasters if they are blasters, but it's the price you pay for specilizing. If I were you I would ditch the NPC, the party has enough people in it. I would kill the cohorts with some area effect nukes and not let new ones in for a while. I imagine the main reason PCs throw 100% at the first baddy they see is that in a biog group like this people steal the spotlight often. With so many characters there isn't much chance for anyone to shine. WHittle down the group and pace the encounters more, and maybe... maybe.. talk to the PCs and explain that the game is changing soon and they should expect to see more than 1 encounter a day. It myself could better I have said not. You've got a party that's ECL 12-13.. there's a lot of really, really nasty monsters in that CR range that you can throw at the enemy. Personally, I've found that the nastiest of all enemies can sometimes be evil adventurers. Sing it with me now, "Anything you can do, I can do better!" ;) Just keep an eye on the level of gear you give the NPC enemies - remember that when the players win (assuming they do), they're going to be getting a lot of loot for their trouble.
Cantankerous 10-19-04, 07:50 AM	One old stand by is to make them face their opposites, be that mirror images or just an equal number of directly opposite characters with their exact power level. The old miriro image approach is a real nasty surprise though to a character who thinks he's the absolute bomb. If you play them right, working as a group in concert, they will usually then kick the living dog snot out of a group of regular power gamers and if they are the exact mirror images it should make them think. Isshia
Fixxxer 10-19-04, 09:30 AM	"It's too tough; it took me more than two rounds to kill!" We need a sad blue smily with a tear running down his cheek playing the violin.
meabolex 10-19-04, 10:53 AM	Hmmm. Your average party level is between 12 and 13. . . yet there are members who are EL 8! A big group like this is hard to push. . . they're not quite at a very high level. . . yet it's often tempting for me to want to throw a CR 15 or 16 encounter at a party like this. What you're probably doing is pretty standard: a few average fights (CR = effective party level), then a hard fight (CR = EPL + (1 to 4)). In this situation, with a party having such a large range of levels, you may want to experiment with putting the hardest encounter in the middle. My hardest encounter is usually the penultimate fight. That makes the last fight more scary because the PCs think: "if that wasn't the big boss, how the HECK are we going to beat this guy!?" But if I notice that the party does expend resources very quickly, I'm not going to try and change them. I'll just let them make the later encounters with CR = level more difficult (:
The_EvilDungeon_Master 10-19-04, 11:03 AM	Is there any way I can teach them to use appropriate resources without forcing a TPK? Yes, but a TPK might also be the way to go. Then they will learn the most valuable lesson of all... No matter how strong you are, there is always someone who will be better.
General Dorsey 10-19-04, 11:45 AM	What types of encounters do you have? I mean, do you have several encounters lower than the party's level as well as the typical tough one. The reason I say this is because if you are throwing things of EL 11+ constantly at them, they may actually have a point. I agree that they need to get over the 2-3 rounds being too tough, but a typical encounter of a CR equal to the party should use about 1/4 of their resources. Another and they would be using 1/3 of their remaining resources. A third and they need to use 1/2 their resources. This is a lot, especially when those resources are getting down to your lowest level spells and you've run out of healing. My advice would be to first check to make sure that your encounters aren't always equal to the party. After that, then it's their problem. They need to learn the hard way.
On_the_wings_of_TPK 10-19-04, 11:53 AM	Hmmthere seems to be some confusion. I apologize. The statement, "It's too tough, it took me more then two rounds to kill." was uttered by a party member. I'm not looking for ways to challenge them, as I am already whomming them left and center. Thats the problem, I'm kicking their respective buts. What I need is a way to get them to manage their resources more effectively. Yaa they can deal a boat load of damage, but i can't remeber the last time a spell under 4th level was cast, other then fireball. I don't really want a TPK, but the way they are going it is enevetable. I treid the time senseitive thing, read my post SNAFU.
Mr. NewFox 10-19-04, 01:03 PM	Now the thing is, that on occasion they just walk through things, like they killed a CR 21 Black Dragon in 2 Turns. Now this is just wrong. MAYBE, if the encounter was indoors in a tight area, and they got initiative, it would have worked. But dragons are designed to be TPK machines, if used correctly. Or am I just being arrogant?
CaineTheInsaine 10-19-04, 01:48 PM	I gotta go with Mr. new Fox on this one.. My own party is 5 people.. all of whom are min-maxers, but some of the best roleplayers I've ever had the pelasure to run... and their average encounter is 1 to 2 CR's above their party level. But even they fear dragons. The 16th level centaur ranger took out a fully advanced beholder (32 hd) in two rounds by itself. But when faced ealier in the campaign with a young adult blackdracolich in a small confined area (I will admit it was during a quick jaunt into Ravenloft) they negotiated with it. Dragons strike fear. Dragons are to be feared and respected. If they killed the dragon that fast you need to throw another dragon a them... and this time teach them a new meaning of pain. They sue nearly sonic everything? At their levels its possible to have several defensies against sonic. That dragon's mate is probally out for revenge someplace. :) SHe'll know how they killed her mate, she'll prepare. Sonic defenses, spell turning. Ironguard spell. (Rendered immune to metal. Aka that metal sword is useless.) High SR, Ironguard, Maximized Spell Turning. Able to dishout damage. Give it a stone necklace with antimagic feild cast on it... Don't outstat them.. outthink them. Be as creative as them.. and remember.. your the DM. You can make anything you want, any combination of villians you wnt. They have only themselves.
spasheridan 10-19-04, 02:35 PM	I took your initial post as a comment that the PC's threw their full damage potential against the 1st enemy, used it all up on the 2nd, then hid till they got their powers back. At least that's how it happens often in my campaigns. How to make them slow down on power uses... I guess you're going to have to have the chat with them about how you want to make some changes to the game, they should prepare. I would still pare the party size down and get it a little more manageable. Then have your next few sessions be along the lines of 4 or 5 forced encounters a day, but make them all CR - 1 or CR -2 for the party. Mix in some decent SR so the wizards are forced to stop using nukes and focus on buffs and area control. The other thing is to use groups instead of singleton monsters. Singleton monsters are deadly.. they are usually capable of rending a PC to pieces in a round or 2 if they catch them by surprise. This kind of forces the PCs to nuke first and ask questions later. Groups of smaller opponents working together spreads out the risk and the targets... and should push the PC's to differant kind of play.
zodiki 10-19-04, 06:01 PM	I wouldn't worry about it. They'll learn. One could argue that not using all your kick-butt resources on every encounter is a form of meta-gaming - unless the party knows for a fact the true makeup of the enemy forces arrayed against them.
Cold Napalm 10-19-04, 06:49 PM	Bah...I complain if the thing lasts my first HIT...much less the first round. Hehehe...well my min maxed characters anyways. I'd say they aren't very min maxed/munchkined. Other then that, umm yeah...why did he NOT cast cone of cold first instead of a sonic fireball? That would have probably killed it the first round and be done with it. If you want them to learn better resource management, have them face things with differing resistences/hoards who are just meant to eat up fireballs.
flamefist drunkenmonk 10-19-04, 07:00 PM	my party has the same problem(i am a PC)...we blow EVERYTHING in the first few rounds of combat, but never use scrolls or wands. We have gotten better though. Just throw a second combat in the day... or even a combat at night when they are low on spells and not prepared... that will make them save up spells quick. There isnt a whole lot you can do with the rope trick thing... i dont encourage it for my party, yea im a min/maxer ... but thats even too cheap for me
Thomar_of_Uointer 10-19-04, 07:09 PM	You need to teach PCs to not waste their resources. Usually, you can teach them this at level 1. However, it's harder to make the point at higher levels. Have them hold a fort or similar structure from 2,000 level twelve Orc Fighters, and they may learn their lesson...
A R Dragon 10-19-04, 08:33 PM	I have the opposite problem. The mage is too careful and doesn't run low on spells untill long after the cleric has used up his healing and the meat sheilds are low on HP and ready to stop. I guess for me its easier to fix - more enemies For you, maby the teleport spell could be diverted if they try to run? That would be interesting.
astute1 10-19-04, 10:02 PM	It should be noted that in the miniatures handbook, they printed a feat which is basically identical to Energy Substitution, with the exception that it CANNOT sub for sonic. In the most recent Dragon, the new version of Energy Substitution was printed in an excerpt from Complete Arcane. It doesn't allow sub for sonic, either. Really, it's about time. I'd houseruled that one long ago.
CaineTheInsaine 10-20-04, 01:02 AM	Does anyone know why they cut sonic? Its one of the five main energies.. yes the least used, but.. why take it out of the feat Energy Sub?
Antigone 10-20-04, 01:14 AM	Does anyone know why they cut sonic? Its one of the five main energies.. yes the least used, but.. why take it out of the feat Energy Sub? Because it was too good. Much like "Haste" was too good. Energy Sub [sonic] made DR a joke.
flowerew 10-20-04, 01:24 AM	It seems to me your palyers are the embodiment of munchkinism. i'd say throw fake junk at them. illusions to make them use up half their spells and stuff at first glance, wipe out the cohorts, send in shock troops, hoards, specialized swift attacks with poisoned arrows and then follow up with an assasin, budget your BBEG, and make him devious. now waht i'm wodnering is this.. "Rog7/Pal3" a paladin rogue? si that even possible? rogues are naturally chaotic or at least neutral, rarely good, almsot never lawful good, yet it looks to me he multiclassed INTO Paladin.. :confused: and, that rogue is a few levels shy of the others, throw a few traps in their way, make them take some hurt. who cares if they get a scratch? if it ruins their manicure give them something they NEED to run away from. an overpowered dragon works best, especially Gem dragons. but any will do.
fatal error 10-20-04, 01:46 AM	No rogues are not 'naturally chaotic' what do you think a thieves guild is? A bunch of chaotic people? NO! they have order, however, I will agree, rogue and paladin seem almost complete opposites. Why do you have an NPC wizard in a party of 7 people with 2 wizards already? Try throwing lots of easier encounters at them, if they squander resources they will be out before the end but should be able to scrape by on low level spells against lower CR enemies. Then again, you could have them go into some sort of training session where they are faced with wave after wave of monsters and so if they die they won't have acutally died.
Tifus Artwin 10-20-04, 03:19 AM	Hmm, Spellstitched Ghouls anyone??? Toss the same thing they throw out back at them. Put them aginst some creatures that toss everything they have at the party, and not just nike spells either, area effect Dispeals, Mordeinkainins Disjunction, Beholders that float about them centering that central eye on the casters, with about 10-15 lesser minions to attack and make sure theres no archers takeing pop shots at the big guy. As it was said before, MAKE THEM RUN. Show them by putting them aginst something that will chew their arses and spit them back out if they dont run from it, and for the sake of the GODS, get rid of those extra meat shields. Take them out, if the PC's dont run, TPK, it doesnt matter if they are all dead, they will learn, or they wont, if they die, start them new from 1st, and teach them then what it is to reserve resources. If nothing else, send them somewhere where they CANT restock, a place that cut off from the other planes, that voids any teleports they may think they have, and without a conection to the eithreal, that rope trick spell wont work, nor will those bags of holding. MAKE them see what resources they have, and how best to use them. If they dont have any spells at night, thats the best time to attack them. Send in about 5 goblins, not going to cause much trouble, but will cause enough, those mages need 8 hours of uninterupted meditation to regain spells. Cant do that if every 4 hours a band of goblins are casting crude spears at your head. Make the rangers use up there arrows, and do something about the paladins holy symbol, without that he isnt casting anymore spells. Another thing, traps cant be over come by fireballs, even sonic ones. Yes, they can damage the traps and make them inoperational, but it sounds like the party doesnt think like that. Something someone else said, toss another adventureing group in there, but not as opponents, but as rivals for the same treasure, have the rival group get closer then the PC's at ever turn, show the PC's that the other group is still going when they call it quits becuase they have run out of spells, and dont bring them into direct contact, have the PC's meet them in town, then heading off into the wild, set it up to where the PC's know that the rival group is there, and that the PC's know that is it a good group, and then have that group show up the PC's. They will yell DMPC's and all that grand hubbub, after the rival group has gotten back to town with the treasure, show the PC's the rivals, (make sure they are lower lvl atleast though), and let them see that a lesser group just beat them to something that they could not get because of stupid use of resources. And im going to bed now, hope this gives atleast something of an idea for you. Tifus
MiloDragonbait 10-20-04, 04:57 AM	All this talk of challenging players reminds me of "The Great Second Edition Goblin-Fest, 1999" in which I used goblins and kobolds to teach a party of powergamers a lesson in humility. The common misconception is that goblins and lower level critters are stupid but according to the monster manual, most of them are at least as intelligent as your average human. Cowardly, yes....stupid, no. I even stuck in "Lucky", a goblin with 100% MR and a -10 AC. Oh he did no damage but he did have "Tetnus", a rusty kitchen knife that he thought was a short sword of great power. The tribes were fighting to gain control over a wizards stronghold and Lucky stumbled across an item that gave him his extraoridnary abilities and bestowed the knowledge of the compound with him. I put the PCs in the middle of the war in which the kobolds on one side and the goblins on the other thought that the party wered hired mercenaries for the other side. Needless to say, both sides ganged up pretty badly on the poor, unsuspecting party. Imagine their surprise when at 12th level they were confronted with 5 goblins and laughed, only to be surprised with ambushes, traps and various other caged critters released into the corridors. Be as smart as your players. Sometimes, you cant help it, they will out-think you. Sometimes you will plan for days and they will crush everything with one lucky roll or just well-thought out tactics. Let them have their fun but keep that in mind and build on it for an even more challenging adventure.