"Keep on the Borderlands" in 3.5? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Keep on the Borderlands" in 3.5? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Cowjuicer
04-15-08, 12:19 AM Hey, I've heard this whole "Keep on the Borderlands" thing is amazing; various people have described it as "awesome", "best module ever", and "Jesus in paper". I run 3.5 games, however, so does anyone know where to find a converted version of this supposedly excellent module? Thank you very much.

Also: Is "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" good? If so, please direct me to a 3.5 version of it. Thank you very much.
ciaran
04-15-08, 12:50 AM Most of us reminise its awesomeness because when it was current because it was that awesome! I played or DMed it quite a few times.

A few years back I spent weeks updating the whole thing, start to finish and even added fluff to some sparse areas. I had a blast.

Problem was that the literal translation didn't work when I brought it to the table. A couple of months in half the party was ready to quit. My familiarity and comfort with the material didn't cover the weak spots.

Looking back, the whole CR system is so different from the equivavlent of CR back then that I realize it would take an entire rewrite of every encounter. Thats a lot of encounters.

I ran each cave system as more of an organic whole. One baddie escaping down the hall, the party making too much noise, etc etc etc. led to bigger and bigger problems for the party. If the party didn't defeat the chieftan before heading back to town then they would relocate. Ha! They hated that!Maybe I just knew it too well to run it room by room. If I ever had the desire to try again I think I could do a much better job.

If you're REALLY interested I can dig up the text file and get it to you. Maybe someone else can piece it together. It DOES require the original module for all of the descriptive text.
Zuggster
04-15-08, 08:37 AM I seem to recall one of the "alternate" D20 systems actually rereleasing it (I've seen it in stores) in 3.x version.

I know since i have 3-4 effective copies of it (2-3 of the individual module and the B Combined Booklet) I did spend time bringing it up to current edition (since it was Basic D&D in its original form - You played a Human Fighter, an Elf, a Dwarf, Human Cleric etc).

I never liked the overall concept of all the Caves working together as a community (11 caves in all), so I broke it into a few caves here and a few caves there. The Ogre/Goblin/Hobgoblin Caves which were ment to be together stayed together, but were seperated from the other caves.

I did find that they leveled much quicker than the original caves would have allowed (the whole thing is ment for 1-3 level) and by the end of the first 6 caves (Kobold, 2 Orcs, Ogre, Goblin and Hobgoblin), were already most of the way through 3rd level. I ended up not using the rest (Bugbear, Gnoll, Minotaur, Shrine, Owlbear).

It didn't help one of the players before we started mentioned being nostalgic about the KotB prior to starting the campaign. I was able to get through a bit before it was somewhat obvious (hey, I remember that area...).
ciaran
04-15-08, 09:20 AM They leveled way too fast in mine too.
Zuggster
04-15-08, 10:03 AM I seem to recall one of the "alternate" D20 systems actually rereleasing it (I've seen it in stores) in 3.x version.

I know since i have 3-4 effective copies of it (2-3 of the individual module and the B Combined Booklet) I did spend time bringing it up to current edition

The B Combined Booklet was "In Search of Adventure" (I had to find it in order to remember the name). It was modules B1-9 combined. The whole of it was for levels 1-3, with the Caves of Chaos part being B2 (the Keep itself was not placed back in this product).

I did also find where I thought the reprint was, which reminded me why I didn't consider the revamp, as it was a hack job, and a poor one for a decent game.
Cowjuicer
04-15-08, 10:30 AM Oh. Well, dammit. What are some really good 3.5 modules? Is "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" 3.5 or 3.0, and would it be hard to convert if it's 3.0?

Also: "The Standing Stone" is supposed to be good. Is it? Same question for "Red Hand of Doom." And "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft."

ONE more thing. How hard is it to convert 3.0 modules to 3.5?
Zuggster
04-15-08, 11:02 AM ONE more thing. How hard is it to convert 3.0 modules to 3.5?

Not too bad, since the overall rules were the same, some things got major tweaking, but if you had to, you could probably run it without an actual "conversion".

Its when you are using 2nd ed, 1st ed or prior (like Keep on the Borderlands) that conversions are really a necesity.
Edymnion
04-15-08, 01:23 PM Oh. Well, dammit. What are some really good 3.5 modules? Is "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" 3.5 or 3.0, and would it be hard to convert if it's 3.0?Just a word of warning:
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is not a module, it is the game's biggest meat grinder. Literally, you should always have at least two backup characters for every play session in that thing, because they *WILL* die. Its a pure old fashioned dungeon dive. Don't try for roleplaying or character development, its pure hack and slash dungeoneering.ONE more thing. How hard is it to convert 3.0 modules to 3.5?Not very. Only major changes are damage reduction, everything else runs pretty much the same.
SamyMerchi
04-15-08, 06:36 PM I just started a fresh 3.25e campaign and am running "Keep on the Borderlands" to start off the campaign. Characters are leveling WAY too fast.

We went into the module with 1000xp, 2nd lvl characters. (Did some freeform stuff to get that first 1k.) They cleared the lizardfolk caves, the hermit and mountain lion, one goblin guard room and two hobgoblin rooms, as well as two gnoll rooms, and counting XP by the book, they'd already be at 4000xp, well into 3rd level.

I estimate I'm going to need to cut down the xp possibly by as much as 90% to prevent them from outleveling the module.

I'm also not very impressed by the module. Every room seems to be, "you find 5 males, 8 females and 13 noncombatant young. They all carry 1d4 electrum and 1d8 silver". There's barely any plot to speak of. I'm adding fluff VERY heavyhandedly to give it something other than hack'n'slash.
Cowjuicer
04-15-08, 06:49 PM Just a word of warning:
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is not a module, it is the game's biggest meat grinder. Literally, you should always have at least two backup characters for every play session in that thing, because they *WILL* die. Its a pure old fashioned dungeon dive. Don't try for roleplaying or character development, its pure hack and slash dungeoneering.

Oh. Damn. Well, Red Hand of Doom seems to be the 3.5 "awesome equivalent" of Keep on the Borderlands. From what I've heard, it's an epic module and is apparently really good! Is this true?
ciaran
04-15-08, 07:50 PM There's barely any plot to speak of. I'm adding fluff VERY heavyhandedly to give it something other than hack'n'slash.

I agree that it could have used additional pages just for resource material but I think the desired result at that stage in module creation was much more bare boned than now. Back then, there were no modules, it was all DM creation. So this probably seemed "very" fleshed out to them when it first appeared.

Keep on adding fluff. Thats the point. I'd say go a step further and plan out the fluff to the end... and the XP limit is good too. ;)
green_yawgmoth
04-15-08, 09:53 PM Just a word of warning:
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is not a module, it is the game's biggest meat grinder. Literally, you should always have at least two backup characters for every play session in that thing, because they *WILL* die. Its a pure old fashioned dungeon dive. Don't try for roleplaying or character development, its pure hack and slash dungeoneering. Now that's just not true. I've had parties get through half the place entirely on RP. However, if they try to combat their way through the entire place, and the DM runs the temple the way it's supposed to be run, then yes. It will be a character mill and the halls will be given a fresh coat of blood.
Neutronium_Dragon
04-16-08, 12:35 AM > Also: "The Standing Stone" is supposed to be good. Is it?

I don't know about this one.

> Same question for "Red Hand of Doom."

Very good, but the characters have precious little leeway to make mistakes.

> And "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft."

Also very good, though in a thoroughly different style than RHOD.
Cowjuicer
04-16-08, 09:31 PM >

Also very good, though in a thoroughly different style than RHOD.

How so? Do you mean less fast-paced, with more time to explore?
thepunisher17397
06-24-08, 07:59 AM Having read what everyone wrote (albeit a couple months late), I was wondering, would it be possible for someone to send (or make available) the Keep of the Borderlands (or any of the older DND modules) converted to 3.5? Specifically Keep of the Borderlands and Against the Giants...

Thanks...

Paul
SamyMerchi
07-02-08, 09:00 AM You can convert most of the stuff on the fly...instead of the skeleton stats in the adventure, use a 3e skeleton...instead of the kobold stats in the adventure, use a 3e kobold...use a 3e owlbear...use a 3e lizardfolk...and so on. The only point where you need to do a little more work is with humanoids since they're more defined by their class levels than their race, but the DMG has some generic NPCs at every level, so you can probably just slap some of those in.

Doing a full explicit conversion is, IMO, a waste of time...

I would, probably, adjust the numbers downwards for savage humanoids in their home caves...some of those rooms have pretty overwhelming numbers for 3e...I remember my party running into a room with 22 orcs...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cowjuicer 04-15-08, 12:19 AM	Hey, I've heard this whole "Keep on the Borderlands" thing is amazing; various people have described it as "awesome", "best module ever", and "Jesus in paper". I run 3.5 games, however, so does anyone know where to find a converted version of this supposedly excellent module? Thank you very much. Also: Is "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" good? If so, please direct me to a 3.5 version of it. Thank you very much.
ciaran 04-15-08, 12:50 AM	Most of us reminise its awesomeness because when it was current because it was that awesome! I played or DMed it quite a few times. A few years back I spent weeks updating the whole thing, start to finish and even added fluff to some sparse areas. I had a blast. Problem was that the literal translation didn't work when I brought it to the table. A couple of months in half the party was ready to quit. My familiarity and comfort with the material didn't cover the weak spots. Looking back, the whole CR system is so different from the equivavlent of CR back then that I realize it would take an entire rewrite of every encounter. Thats a lot of encounters. I ran each cave system as more of an organic whole. One baddie escaping down the hall, the party making too much noise, etc etc etc. led to bigger and bigger problems for the party. If the party didn't defeat the chieftan before heading back to town then they would relocate. Ha! They hated that!Maybe I just knew it too well to run it room by room. If I ever had the desire to try again I think I could do a much better job. If you're REALLY interested I can dig up the text file and get it to you. Maybe someone else can piece it together. It DOES require the original module for all of the descriptive text.
Zuggster 04-15-08, 08:37 AM	I seem to recall one of the "alternate" D20 systems actually rereleasing it (I've seen it in stores) in 3.x version. I know since i have 3-4 effective copies of it (2-3 of the individual module and the B Combined Booklet) I did spend time bringing it up to current edition (since it was Basic D&D in its original form - You played a Human Fighter, an Elf, a Dwarf, Human Cleric etc). I never liked the overall concept of all the Caves working together as a community (11 caves in all), so I broke it into a few caves here and a few caves there. The Ogre/Goblin/Hobgoblin Caves which were ment to be together stayed together, but were seperated from the other caves. I did find that they leveled much quicker than the original caves would have allowed (the whole thing is ment for 1-3 level) and by the end of the first 6 caves (Kobold, 2 Orcs, Ogre, Goblin and Hobgoblin), were already most of the way through 3rd level. I ended up not using the rest (Bugbear, Gnoll, Minotaur, Shrine, Owlbear). It didn't help one of the players before we started mentioned being nostalgic about the KotB prior to starting the campaign. I was able to get through a bit before it was somewhat obvious (hey, I remember that area...).
ciaran 04-15-08, 09:20 AM	They leveled way too fast in mine too.
Zuggster 04-15-08, 10:03 AM	I seem to recall one of the "alternate" D20 systems actually rereleasing it (I've seen it in stores) in 3.x version. I know since i have 3-4 effective copies of it (2-3 of the individual module and the B Combined Booklet) I did spend time bringing it up to current edition The B Combined Booklet was "In Search of Adventure" (I had to find it in order to remember the name). It was modules B1-9 combined. The whole of it was for levels 1-3, with the Caves of Chaos part being B2 (the Keep itself was not placed back in this product). I did also find where I thought the reprint was, which reminded me why I didn't consider the revamp, as it was a hack job, and a poor one for a decent game.
Cowjuicer 04-15-08, 10:30 AM	Oh. Well, dammit. What are some really good 3.5 modules? Is "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" 3.5 or 3.0, and would it be hard to convert if it's 3.0? Also: "The Standing Stone" is supposed to be good. Is it? Same question for "Red Hand of Doom." And "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft." ONE more thing. How hard is it to convert 3.0 modules to 3.5?
Zuggster 04-15-08, 11:02 AM	ONE more thing. How hard is it to convert 3.0 modules to 3.5? Not too bad, since the overall rules were the same, some things got major tweaking, but if you had to, you could probably run it without an actual "conversion". Its when you are using 2nd ed, 1st ed or prior (like Keep on the Borderlands) that conversions are really a necesity.
Edymnion 04-15-08, 01:23 PM	Oh. Well, dammit. What are some really good 3.5 modules? Is "Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil" 3.5 or 3.0, and would it be hard to convert if it's 3.0?Just a word of warning: Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is not a module, it is the game's biggest meat grinder. Literally, you should always have at least two backup characters for every play session in that thing, because they WILL die. Its a pure old fashioned dungeon dive. Don't try for roleplaying or character development, its pure hack and slash dungeoneering.ONE more thing. How hard is it to convert 3.0 modules to 3.5?Not very. Only major changes are damage reduction, everything else runs pretty much the same.
SamyMerchi 04-15-08, 06:36 PM	I just started a fresh 3.25e campaign and am running "Keep on the Borderlands" to start off the campaign. Characters are leveling WAY too fast. We went into the module with 1000xp, 2nd lvl characters. (Did some freeform stuff to get that first 1k.) They cleared the lizardfolk caves, the hermit and mountain lion, one goblin guard room and two hobgoblin rooms, as well as two gnoll rooms, and counting XP by the book, they'd already be at 4000xp, well into 3rd level. I estimate I'm going to need to cut down the xp possibly by as much as 90% to prevent them from outleveling the module. I'm also not very impressed by the module. Every room seems to be, "you find 5 males, 8 females and 13 noncombatant young. They all carry 1d4 electrum and 1d8 silver". There's barely any plot to speak of. I'm adding fluff VERY heavyhandedly to give it something other than hack'n'slash.
Cowjuicer 04-15-08, 06:49 PM	Just a word of warning: Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is not a module, it is the game's biggest meat grinder. Literally, you should always have at least two backup characters for every play session in that thing, because they WILL die. Its a pure old fashioned dungeon dive. Don't try for roleplaying or character development, its pure hack and slash dungeoneering. Oh. Damn. Well, Red Hand of Doom seems to be the 3.5 "awesome equivalent" of Keep on the Borderlands. From what I've heard, it's an epic module and is apparently really good! Is this true?
ciaran 04-15-08, 07:50 PM	There's barely any plot to speak of. I'm adding fluff VERY heavyhandedly to give it something other than hack'n'slash. I agree that it could have used additional pages just for resource material but I think the desired result at that stage in module creation was much more bare boned than now. Back then, there were no modules, it was all DM creation. So this probably seemed "very" fleshed out to them when it first appeared. Keep on adding fluff. Thats the point. I'd say go a step further and plan out the fluff to the end... and the XP limit is good too. ;)
green_yawgmoth 04-15-08, 09:53 PM	Just a word of warning: Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is not a module, it is the game's biggest meat grinder. Literally, you should always have at least two backup characters for every play session in that thing, because they WILL die. Its a pure old fashioned dungeon dive. Don't try for roleplaying or character development, its pure hack and slash dungeoneering. Now that's just not true. I've had parties get through half the place entirely on RP. However, if they try to combat their way through the entire place, and the DM runs the temple the way it's supposed to be run, then yes. It will be a character mill and the halls will be given a fresh coat of blood.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-16-08, 12:35 AM	> Also: "The Standing Stone" is supposed to be good. Is it? I don't know about this one. > Same question for "Red Hand of Doom." Very good, but the characters have precious little leeway to make mistakes. > And "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft." Also very good, though in a thoroughly different style than RHOD.
Cowjuicer 04-16-08, 09:31 PM	> Also very good, though in a thoroughly different style than RHOD. How so? Do you mean less fast-paced, with more time to explore?
thepunisher17397 06-24-08, 07:59 AM	Having read what everyone wrote (albeit a couple months late), I was wondering, would it be possible for someone to send (or make available) the Keep of the Borderlands (or any of the older DND modules) converted to 3.5? Specifically Keep of the Borderlands and Against the Giants... Thanks... Paul
SamyMerchi 07-02-08, 09:00 AM	You can convert most of the stuff on the fly...instead of the skeleton stats in the adventure, use a 3e skeleton...instead of the kobold stats in the adventure, use a 3e kobold...use a 3e owlbear...use a 3e lizardfolk...and so on. The only point where you need to do a little more work is with humanoids since they're more defined by their class levels than their race, but the DMG has some generic NPCs at every level, so you can probably just slap some of those in. Doing a full explicit conversion is, IMO, a waste of time... I would, probably, adjust the numbers downwards for savage humanoids in their home caves...some of those rooms have pretty overwhelming numbers for 3e...I remember my party running into a room with 22 orcs...