"Monster" Humanoids and racial HD. [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Monster" Humanoids and racial HD. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lokathor
06-08-06, 01:53 AM Simply put, I hate racial HD on humanoids. It's a buggy system to say that an elf has 1 racial HD that gets replaced when he takes a level in a class, but a lizardman has 2 and none of them get replaced when he takes a class. So what I'm doing for my game is simply removing the HD and having all the humanoid races be a "template" of sorts the same way humans and elves are.

This is simple for most, but for some (Lizardfolk and Bugebears mostly) it requires a boost to the LA of the race so that their abilities don't come too early. If you're using the LA buyoff rules (which I am) then this isn't a huge problem for players either. This did leave me with a troublesome Hobgoblin, being a LA+1 race but not quite having anything to back it up, I just decided to give them +2 Int along with their other stats to reprisent their "strong grasp" of war and tactics. I also like the idea that in their wars with the elves they actually are better, but they never have as much training (those who don't have to try, don't try), and so it's ends up being a "fair fight" of sorts.

I'm also using the web enchancement for kobolds (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)) so that they have something to offer. In the end, it comes down to the Goblin and the Orc. I'm not using Halflings or Gnomes on my game, so Goblin is at least nice if you're simply after a small sized race (it'd be them or Kobolds), but the Goblin and Orc (and for that matter, the Half-Orc) don't have anything that matches up to all the super stuff humans, elves, dwarves, or even the "lowly" half-elf get.

So my questions to all of you is:
1) What are your opinions on removing the racial HD from the "monster" humanoid races?
2) Much more importantly: what should goblins and orcs get to make it believeable that they're even still around after as many years? With being a statistically inferior race and all, wouldn't they have died off through simple natural selection as humans move in and take over?
X-Codes
06-08-06, 03:30 AM Goblins don't need much buffing. They're a small race with a 30' move, which is pretty good. They also have a couple good racial skill bonuses and Darkvision. If you want to give them the little bit more then I say give them a +2 racial bonus to Spot and Listen, or a +1 on attacks against Gnomes and Dwarves. They really aren't that bad of a race in my opinion.

I also say Orcs and Half-Orcs are fine. Orcs have a +4 racial bonus to strength, which means if they do nothing else, they will still beat the stuffing out of people. They have Light Sensitivity, which means they get a -1 to attack rolls in daylight. That and the extra -2 to Wisdom puts them on par with Half-Orcs.

Natural Darkvision is a pretty useful ability, especially if you pick up a PrC that also grants Darkvision which will extend it to 120'.
SoldierOfFortune187
06-08-06, 04:02 AM 1. I couldn't really see justifying removing them unless you are going to up their level adjustment the same amount. They are intended to be balanced because they are stronger races (hence the racial hit dice), and lowering their ECL makes them noticeably better than other standard races.

2. Nothing. Goblins get so-so ability scores, small size, same movement as a medium creature, darkvision, and racial bonuses to both Move Silently and Ride. Orcs get better Strength bonuses than other +0LA races, along with darkvision as well. The fact that you're forcing their inclusion over other, better-suited player races (opinion) is strictly a personal decision.
Lokathor
06-08-06, 04:24 AM X-Codes: I hadn't thought about stacking darkvision distince before. That's a good idea, I'll use that. I know that the Orc is "on par" with the Half-Orc, but the Half-Orc isn't exactly "good" either. The dwarf gets bonuses to saves against magic and poison and against trips, the human gets a bonus feat and the extra skills. Elves get free weapon use and access to several semi-exclusive PrCs, and next to that the Half-Orc rarely gets to shine.

SoldierOfFortune187: I did say in my post that the Bugbear and Lizardfolk got a LA boost (LA+2 total for both of them). The Gnoll and the Troglodyte can pretty much stay at LA+1 and LA+2 respectively and that's actually all the multi-HD in the MM right there. However, you can't simply take away all their HD and then add back that many LA because that defeats the whole purpose (unless the idea was to just weaken the race for no reason). Every other humanoid race can replace its racial HD with a class HD, why should the Bugbear, Gnoll, Lizardfolk, and Troglodyte be any different in that ability?

I'm not "forcing" anything on players (the group is 3 humans, a wood elf, and a nezumi (OA)). I'm trying to convert the monster humanoids so that they can be used as foes for the PCs to face off against and be actual challanges, or as temporary allies when they take on large tasks. 2 humanoid hitdice basicly turn into junk after even just 2 class hit dice. The 4 races that do have humanoid HD aren't exactly granting any abilities too far outside the normal relm of LA +1 or LA +2. It's not as if I'm just taking the racial HD off a troll or a fire giant.
Nyaz
06-08-06, 05:01 AM "Stacking darkvision distance" is not in line with the rules. Apart from one's own houserules, that is.

1) I think racial HD work just fine the way they are. They provide Base atk. bonuses and skills and feats. They're not as good as class HD, but a Bugbear Ftr1 is still a lot more powerful than a Human Ftr1.

2) Orcs and half-orcs are NOT statistically inferior. I almost killed off a group of 6th-level players by a band of orcs (Warrior 1 and Barbarian 1) when they did something stupid and encountered them in a cave without any illumination. Darkvision and +4 to STR are excellent for a Barbarian who doesn't bother too much with the penalties to Intelligence and Wisdom (compared to a human Fighter, that's +8 more to STR in a Rage!).
Lokathor
06-08-06, 05:12 AM but a Bugbear Ftr1 is still a lot more powerful than a Human Ftr1.
Exactly, which is what the level adjustment reprisents. A Ftr1 bugbear with no racial HD and a +2 LA would be "equal" to a level 3 character. Trouble is that a Ftr4 and a Bugbear (3HD and +1LA) are not equal. The Ftr4 would have higher BAB (by 2 points), and 3 feats over the bugbear.

(Bugbear stats in the sblock, for those who don't want to look it up.)
# +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
# Medium size.
# A bugbear's base land speed is 30 feet.
# Darkvision out to 60 feet.
# +3 natural armor bonus.
# +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
# Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
# Favored Class: Rogue.
# Level adjustment +2. (normally +1 with 3 HD)

The main difference between less racial HD and having a large LA is the HP. That, and the fact that with the LA buyoff rules you can reduce LA over time, you can't even rebuild away racial HD.
questionc
06-08-06, 09:01 AM 1) Personally the racial HD system works pretty well for what it's meant to do. In any case, don't compare the races at lvl 4. Compare them at levels 10 and 15. Note that you have a problem that either 'commoner' bugbears have 4hp, or they are hardy like in the MM and you have to overlook the inconsistencies of your system.

2) Orcs and Goblins are pretty good +0LA classes. I don't see how either could need buffed. +4 Str and Small w/ 30 speed are both pretty desirable if for no other reason than because they're exclusive to those races at +0LA.
Cthulhu-LQ
06-08-06, 09:15 AM About the racial HD
I too feel that it is a bit weird that some races get their racial HD replaced with class HD.
But I would do the opposite of what you suggest. Instead of removing a racial HD when a humanoid monster gets a class, I would give base racial HD to all races.
For example humans and normal PC races would have 1d8 + class HD, instead of only class HD.
So when a human withhout a class gains his first level of wizard, he doesn't drop drop 8HP to 4HP!
scott644
06-08-06, 09:37 AM Racial HD are a balancing factor. In most cases, they're actually weaker than class levels, making the LA factor less necessary in races with more than 1 racial HD. In some creature types, the racial HD actually balances with class levels in the case of the dragon and outsider types - and the outsider type is often humanoid. I have even toyed with the idea of playing a straight outsider or dragon as a result.

In other words, I don't consider racial HD to be a problem. I feel they're more of a solution as they allow better balancing and a reduced need for LA in non-standard races.
Lokathor
06-08-06, 10:00 AM questionc: Bugbears actually specificly are supposed to have "non-combatants" in their tribes. The "common" bugbear with when using the 0 racial HD version could simply be a Warrior3 and he'd have just as many HP.

Cthulhu-LQ: I think I'll go with your idea, but I can't do so very easily midgame.

It seems people like Racial HD much more than I and my local gamers do.
Nom
06-09-06, 11:13 AM Actually, there are very, very few creatures that are affected by the 'replace racial HD' rule. As far as I can recall, in the MM it's basically a few sprites (1 HD fey). Humanoids in the MM generally don't have 1 'humanoid' HD - they either have a class level (eg elf, goblin) or they have multiple humanoid HD (bugbear, lizardfolk).

For the rest, it's actually a lot cleaner to use racial HD than LA. Racial HD are well defined; they're not this meta-game mechanic. However, too many racial HD would grant too many hit points (and the like) when the creatures are supposed to be low-level monsters, so the difference is made up for with LA.
DarkRhystar
06-09-06, 12:59 PM 1) What are your opinions on removing the racial HD from the "monster" humanoid races?

I like RHD as it is. Aren't I a strange one. :)

2) Much more importantly: what should goblins and orcs get to make it believeable that they're even still around after as many years? With being a statistically inferior race and all, wouldn't they have died off through simple natural selection as humans move in and take over?

Aren't they? Human cities springing up everywhere. Seems every race (FR-wise) is being slowly crushed or exterminated as Humans are taking over.

Humans are the quickest, most adaptable, and fastest breeding race of the normal races (AFAIK). In most campaign settings, while the average Human may not be a match for average monster A, the species as a whole is at the top of the food chain.

Likewise, Goblins and Orcs (in many settings) are simply around because they were there first and other races haven't exterminated them yet.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokathor 06-08-06, 01:53 AM	Simply put, I hate racial HD on humanoids. It's a buggy system to say that an elf has 1 racial HD that gets replaced when he takes a level in a class, but a lizardman has 2 and none of them get replaced when he takes a class. So what I'm doing for my game is simply removing the HD and having all the humanoid races be a "template" of sorts the same way humans and elves are. This is simple for most, but for some (Lizardfolk and Bugebears mostly) it requires a boost to the LA of the race so that their abilities don't come too early. If you're using the LA buyoff rules (which I am) then this isn't a huge problem for players either. This did leave me with a troublesome Hobgoblin, being a LA+1 race but not quite having anything to back it up, I just decided to give them +2 Int along with their other stats to reprisent their "strong grasp" of war and tactics. I also like the idea that in their wars with the elves they actually are better, but they never have as much training (those who don't have to try, don't try), and so it's ends up being a "fair fight" of sorts. I'm also using the web enchancement for kobolds (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)) so that they have something to offer. In the end, it comes down to the Goblin and the Orc. I'm not using Halflings or Gnomes on my game, so Goblin is at least nice if you're simply after a small sized race (it'd be them or Kobolds), but the Goblin and Orc (and for that matter, the Half-Orc) don't have anything that matches up to all the super stuff humans, elves, dwarves, or even the "lowly" half-elf get. So my questions to all of you is: 1) What are your opinions on removing the racial HD from the "monster" humanoid races? 2) Much more importantly: what should goblins and orcs get to make it believeable that they're even still around after as many years? With being a statistically inferior race and all, wouldn't they have died off through simple natural selection as humans move in and take over?
X-Codes 06-08-06, 03:30 AM	Goblins don't need much buffing. They're a small race with a 30' move, which is pretty good. They also have a couple good racial skill bonuses and Darkvision. If you want to give them the little bit more then I say give them a +2 racial bonus to Spot and Listen, or a +1 on attacks against Gnomes and Dwarves. They really aren't that bad of a race in my opinion. I also say Orcs and Half-Orcs are fine. Orcs have a +4 racial bonus to strength, which means if they do nothing else, they will still beat the stuffing out of people. They have Light Sensitivity, which means they get a -1 to attack rolls in daylight. That and the extra -2 to Wisdom puts them on par with Half-Orcs. Natural Darkvision is a pretty useful ability, especially if you pick up a PrC that also grants Darkvision which will extend it to 120'.
SoldierOfFortune187 06-08-06, 04:02 AM	1. I couldn't really see justifying removing them unless you are going to up their level adjustment the same amount. They are intended to be balanced because they are stronger races (hence the racial hit dice), and lowering their ECL makes them noticeably better than other standard races. 2. Nothing. Goblins get so-so ability scores, small size, same movement as a medium creature, darkvision, and racial bonuses to both Move Silently and Ride. Orcs get better Strength bonuses than other +0LA races, along with darkvision as well. The fact that you're forcing their inclusion over other, better-suited player races (opinion) is strictly a personal decision.
Lokathor 06-08-06, 04:24 AM	X-Codes: I hadn't thought about stacking darkvision distince before. That's a good idea, I'll use that. I know that the Orc is "on par" with the Half-Orc, but the Half-Orc isn't exactly "good" either. The dwarf gets bonuses to saves against magic and poison and against trips, the human gets a bonus feat and the extra skills. Elves get free weapon use and access to several semi-exclusive PrCs, and next to that the Half-Orc rarely gets to shine. SoldierOfFortune187: I did say in my post that the Bugbear and Lizardfolk got a LA boost (LA+2 total for both of them). The Gnoll and the Troglodyte can pretty much stay at LA+1 and LA+2 respectively and that's actually all the multi-HD in the MM right there. However, you can't simply take away all their HD and then add back that many LA because that defeats the whole purpose (unless the idea was to just weaken the race for no reason). Every other humanoid race can replace its racial HD with a class HD, why should the Bugbear, Gnoll, Lizardfolk, and Troglodyte be any different in that ability? I'm not "forcing" anything on players (the group is 3 humans, a wood elf, and a nezumi (OA)). I'm trying to convert the monster humanoids so that they can be used as foes for the PCs to face off against and be actual challanges, or as temporary allies when they take on large tasks. 2 humanoid hitdice basicly turn into junk after even just 2 class hit dice. The 4 races that do have humanoid HD aren't exactly granting any abilities too far outside the normal relm of LA +1 or LA +2. It's not as if I'm just taking the racial HD off a troll or a fire giant.
Nyaz 06-08-06, 05:01 AM	"Stacking darkvision distance" is not in line with the rules. Apart from one's own houserules, that is. 1) I think racial HD work just fine the way they are. They provide Base atk. bonuses and skills and feats. They're not as good as class HD, but a Bugbear Ftr1 is still a lot more powerful than a Human Ftr1. 2) Orcs and half-orcs are NOT statistically inferior. I almost killed off a group of 6th-level players by a band of orcs (Warrior 1 and Barbarian 1) when they did something stupid and encountered them in a cave without any illumination. Darkvision and +4 to STR are excellent for a Barbarian who doesn't bother too much with the penalties to Intelligence and Wisdom (compared to a human Fighter, that's +8 more to STR in a Rage!).
Lokathor 06-08-06, 05:12 AM	but a Bugbear Ftr1 is still a lot more powerful than a Human Ftr1. Exactly, which is what the level adjustment reprisents. A Ftr1 bugbear with no racial HD and a +2 LA would be "equal" to a level 3 character. Trouble is that a Ftr4 and a Bugbear (3HD and +1LA) are not equal. The Ftr4 would have higher BAB (by 2 points), and 3 feats over the bugbear. (Bugbear stats in the sblock, for those who don't want to look it up.) # +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma. # Medium size. # A bugbear's base land speed is 30 feet. # Darkvision out to 60 feet. # +3 natural armor bonus. # +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. # Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc. # Favored Class: Rogue. # Level adjustment +2. (normally +1 with 3 HD) The main difference between less racial HD and having a large LA is the HP. That, and the fact that with the LA buyoff rules you can reduce LA over time, you can't even rebuild away racial HD.
questionc 06-08-06, 09:01 AM	1) Personally the racial HD system works pretty well for what it's meant to do. In any case, don't compare the races at lvl 4. Compare them at levels 10 and 15. Note that you have a problem that either 'commoner' bugbears have 4hp, or they are hardy like in the MM and you have to overlook the inconsistencies of your system. 2) Orcs and Goblins are pretty good +0LA classes. I don't see how either could need buffed. +4 Str and Small w/ 30 speed are both pretty desirable if for no other reason than because they're exclusive to those races at +0LA.
Cthulhu-LQ 06-08-06, 09:15 AM	About the racial HD I too feel that it is a bit weird that some races get their racial HD replaced with class HD. But I would do the opposite of what you suggest. Instead of removing a racial HD when a humanoid monster gets a class, I would give base racial HD to all races. For example humans and normal PC races would have 1d8 + class HD, instead of only class HD. So when a human withhout a class gains his first level of wizard, he doesn't drop drop 8HP to 4HP!
scott644 06-08-06, 09:37 AM	Racial HD are a balancing factor. In most cases, they're actually weaker than class levels, making the LA factor less necessary in races with more than 1 racial HD. In some creature types, the racial HD actually balances with class levels in the case of the dragon and outsider types - and the outsider type is often humanoid. I have even toyed with the idea of playing a straight outsider or dragon as a result. In other words, I don't consider racial HD to be a problem. I feel they're more of a solution as they allow better balancing and a reduced need for LA in non-standard races.
Lokathor 06-08-06, 10:00 AM	questionc: Bugbears actually specificly are supposed to have "non-combatants" in their tribes. The "common" bugbear with when using the 0 racial HD version could simply be a Warrior3 and he'd have just as many HP. Cthulhu-LQ: I think I'll go with your idea, but I can't do so very easily midgame. It seems people like Racial HD much more than I and my local gamers do.
Nom 06-09-06, 11:13 AM	Actually, there are very, very few creatures that are affected by the 'replace racial HD' rule. As far as I can recall, in the MM it's basically a few sprites (1 HD fey). Humanoids in the MM generally don't have 1 'humanoid' HD - they either have a class level (eg elf, goblin) or they have multiple humanoid HD (bugbear, lizardfolk). For the rest, it's actually a lot cleaner to use racial HD than LA. Racial HD are well defined; they're not this meta-game mechanic. However, too many racial HD would grant too many hit points (and the like) when the creatures are supposed to be low-level monsters, so the difference is made up for with LA.
DarkRhystar 06-09-06, 12:59 PM	1) What are your opinions on removing the racial HD from the "monster" humanoid races? I like RHD as it is. Aren't I a strange one. :) 2) Much more importantly: what should goblins and orcs get to make it believeable that they're even still around after as many years? With being a statistically inferior race and all, wouldn't they have died off through simple natural selection as humans move in and take over? Aren't they? Human cities springing up everywhere. Seems every race (FR-wise) is being slowly crushed or exterminated as Humans are taking over. Humans are the quickest, most adaptable, and fastest breeding race of the normal races (AFAIK). In most campaign settings, while the average Human may not be a match for average monster A, the species as a whole is at the top of the food chain. Likewise, Goblins and Orcs (in many settings) are simply around because they were there first and other races haven't exterminated them yet.