"oh, you're CN?", "Yeah, so I can do whatever I want" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"oh, you're CN?", "Yeah, so I can do whatever I want" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ajmastrean
07-29-04, 09:39 AM Here is the situation...I started a new game with three close friends (we have played together before). One guy, lets call him Neil, has decided to play a CN elven rogue. When we got together to play, I looked at his sheet and said "CN is an often mis-played alignment" he responds with "why is that? because I can do whatever I want?" I proceeded to explain how that was Chaotic Stupic, not Chaotic Neutral. And I told him what neutral was and what chaotic was. Neil is a stubborn person, he is not much of a team player and is prone to get upset with others if he does not get his way.

So, we start the game. We have a NN Dwarven Druid (His actions are leaning him toward NG), an NN Elven Ranger (His actions are keeping him NN), and the said Rogue (CG). The game is staged in a decent sized valley between two mighty mountain ranges.

The Druid is summoned by another more powerful druid in the area to help him deal with a Blighter (evil druid). The rogue is a wanderer looking to join an assassins/rogues guild (not necessarily evil in my game). The ranger is secretly (to the others) an operative of the assasins guild watching the rogue. Otherwise he is just a woodsmen from the area.

The rogue gets to the small hamlet (where everyone else is by coincidence ;)) and immediately starts to rob townsfolk. He rolls a terrible Hide check, but decent enough Move Silent and Sleight of Hand to pocket some change. The ranger watches from afar and the town sherriff (one of 3 people with class levels in the immediate area) approaches the rogue (20+ spot check) from behind. He taps him on the shoulder and offers him the chance to surrender and behave. The rogue draws rapier and attacks. The rogue gets hit a bit, the two druids (PC and NPC) hit him with some spells, the sherriff blows the signal whistle, but the rogue bolts out of town and disguises himself.

Later, the rogue returns to the party who has now decided to find the village carpenter who had wandered off while diseased a few nights past. This part goes well, they return to town and get some reward. The rogue decides to go south to the bandit/squatter camp. He meets some important figures (master theif, alchemist, bandit lord). He went to the alchemist, bought some potions, and killed him! He blew up the alchemists shack (I made sure to throw some acid at him and have him take damage from the explosion, he's ~5 hp now) and dragged the doc out of the town into the woods. He stabs him to death in the woods.

When he returns to town he attempts to talk with the master theif again, two half-orc "bouncers" tell him his brash actions have garnered him the distrust of the town (everyone saw him, he made no attempts at stealth). He attacks the bouncers! he's at 5 hp! The bouncers grab him and warn him again. The party (out of game) convinced him that it was a good idea to chill out.

So, that was long, but important. Throughout the game, he has complained that hick towns shouldn't have such strong characters (the village sherriff and one druid he attacked alone) and that everyone I put in the game is 2 levels higher than him (again, game designed for 4 players). But all he's done is attacked unprovoking, friendly, merciful people!

What should I do? should I deal in game or out? This kid has a history of stubbornness and "I have to get my way or its wrong" attitude. He has been contesting my calls as DM (I have not been rolling every check exactly by the book, but that's my call and they agreed with it already). I had plans for the alchemist to add to the story, now he's dead. The rogue is not too welcome in the first hamlet and the theives den is wary now.
Escef
07-29-04, 09:51 AM He is playing a CE character, and a truely short sighted one at that. If he weren't your friend I'd advise booting him from the group. Since he is, tell him to change the alignment on his sheet, and if he balks point out that is how he has played his character. Let's face it, from your description, I'd say he'll either end up leaving the group or causing no end of trouble. Best advice, have him DM and pull the same kind of crap on him.
Camellan
07-29-04, 09:55 AM Out of game. Explain that the game is supposed to be fun for everyone, not just him, and that his actions are ruining the game for you, and everyone else.

Ask him to tone it down for the sake of everyone else. Don't accept "I'm just playing my character". The answer to that is "so am I and everyone I'm playing wants you dead, because you torque them all off, so tone it down."

If he doesn't, well, kick him to the curb. It's rough, but that's the only way.

In game solutions won't work, he'll just get mad that you're picking on him.
Lady Mia
07-29-04, 10:11 AM Let the consequences of his actions land as they may.

He attacked the bouncers while having 5 hp... this should have been the death of him. It even sounds like he was trying to see if you would let him die. Its a poor idea to remove the fear of death from your games. Also remind him that EVERY person in the game has a level even the NPCs. From the level 1 Commoner (Farm Boy) to the 10th level Expert (Dwarven Blacksmith). They just don't normally have PC classes. This means experienced town gaurds (5th level Warriors) can challenge your party.

Also anyone can do anything they want. a LG character can go pillage and murder. Its your job as the GM to keep track of their actions and adjust their alignment accordingly as they play. With all this murder and mayhem I would have bumped his alignment to CE and double checked to see if his mental stats are being roleplayed right. Clearly these are the actions of a really unwise person.

More than that he sounds like a disruptive player. I would let him kill himself off. Then suggest he try a different style of character for his new one. If he just keeps playing like this ask him to leave. Its your game, take control of it. Clearly he would be happier playing video games anyway. Just be sure to give him a chance to change first, it destroys friendships if you don't.
Henchcritter
07-29-04, 10:20 AM I goofed up here, MrkGrismerpoints points
out this character is CE

I suggest you change his aligment to CE and read >this< (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230824). Society will react poorly to obvious theft and murder, so read the 'hang them high' part.
MrkGrismer
07-29-04, 10:49 AM Ah, the easy road to Chaotic Evil:

Originally posted by ajmastrean
He taps him on the shoulder and offers him the chance to surrender and behave. The rogue draws rapier and attacks. He went to the alchemist, bought some potions, and killed him! He blew up the alchemists shack (I made sure to throw some acid at him and have him take damage from the explosion, he's ~5 hp now) and dragged the doc out of the town into the woods. He stabs him to death in the woods. He attacks the bouncers! he's at 5 hp! The bouncers grab him and warn him again. The party (out of game) convinced him that it was a good idea to chill out.

(sigh) Unfortunately he needs to DM some games himself, then he might understand. Alternately have a Blackguard try to recruit him (since he is also CE now). Something along the lines of:

"My master has been watching you for some time now. We find it absolutely delicous how you revel in murder for murder's sake, join us and together we shall... (ring ring) huh? (ring ring) [answers cell phone] What? Lucas's lawyers say what? Okay. [hangs up]. Mumbles: damn LE lawyers. Uh, where was I, oh yeah, scratch that 'join us and together stuff', uh, oh come with me and join with the legions of darkness."
Naeron
07-29-04, 10:56 AM The problem may be on the way to being solved because he is already well on the way to being CE.

He's already racked up stealing from the poor (harms them and is thus evil in D&D terms) and the murders of two innocent people (evil).

His complaint about NPC levels is nonsense. Hick towns in the middle of the wilderness are dangerous places - after all only the inhabitants themselves protect the place from wandering monsters and raiding parties. So anyone whose lived there a while, and survived, will absolutely have gained levels. This is 3rd Edition and now NPCs gain levels in NPC classes. Only the youngest adults in such a town would still be 1st level.

His actions do seem to be incompatible with a CN alignment and if the player continues to ignore the fact that actions have consequences I would guess that the Rogue will not be alive much longer.
Cherrn
07-29-04, 11:04 AM Nothing wrong with playing a CN character, sadly your friend is playing his CN character as CE. You should have killed him when he attacked the bouncers, or even better, as MrkGrismer mentioned, have a blackguard come recruit him, then kill him so the blackguard will seem like a hero to all the people of the farming community :smirk:
ajmastrean
07-29-04, 11:12 AM Ok, he has played a few other games and DM'ed one vampires game that did not go well due to a lack of enthusiasm. And I know everyone has class levels, I meant PC class levels worth noting (5th lvl fighter as compared to 3rd lvl expert).

I will talk to him out of game about his actions hurting the game and screwing up the other players. I will also attempt to talk to him about alignment. Like I said though, he is very stubborn.

There are several opportunities in this bandit camp though, and I will present them regardless of his desicion to be evil/not be evil. The crime lord is going to ask him to dispose of the small town sherriff, he will have the opportunity to turn around and be good though (whether he takes out the crime lord, turns him in, or does nothing). He has already approached the master theif and somewhat asked how to get "in" with him. The master theif told him to prove his valor and that he should be resourceful enough to figure out what that meant (basically an open ended task - steal something worthy, sneak into somewhere gaurded, etc).

I am sure the other players would side with the sherriff and I am thinking of making one of the crime lords henchmen a double agent (pretty intense for a small town and some bandits, but I like it).

The next evil act he performs will get him an E, that's for sure. Provided the sherriff gets wind of the operations in the bandit camp (perhaps soon!) the other players will be approached to "take down" the crime lord.

I am also thinking of throwing in a group of raiders who harass everyone, bandits and simple townsfolk. Perhaps if I can put the rogue's villainous friends in danger, he will help remove the raiders and help the village too.
Astanphaeus
07-29-04, 11:36 AM Originally posted by ajmastrean
What should I do? should I deal in game or out? This kid has a history of stubbornness and "I have to get my way or its wrong" attitude. He has been contesting my calls as DM (I have not been rolling every check exactly by the book, but that's my call and they agreed with it already).

I'd say handle it OOG.

Make the following points:

1. This is not a video game.

2. How he thinks the world should be is irrelevant. He's not the DM. You are.

3. He is not playing CN. He is playing CE. If he continues to play CE, the character will be retired, because that was not what he agreed to play, that was not the character that was okayed by you. If he continues to be completely psychotic, he'll die.

4. The game is not being run to accommodate his personal power trip. He is disrupting the game for you, and he is disrupting it for the other players. This is unacceptable.

Be as tactful as you think you should be, but make sure these points are understood, and make sure he agrees to them. If he doesn't like any of the above, too bad. He's going to have to get over it and grow up if he wants to participate.

If he continues to be inconsiderate and disruptive, quarentine his antics. Give him a little corner where he can do whatever he wants. Don't roll for anything, just say 'okay, yeah you do it' without further embellishement, and ignore him as much as possible, while you run the real game for the other players. At the end of the session, give him 0 XP for completely disregarding the agreement he made with you.

If that doesn't work, boot him.

~ A.
Cymraegmorgan
07-29-04, 11:40 AM Kill the character, boot the player. That your patience has lasted this long is a sign of your strength of character, but think also of the other players. Sounds like this CE boor's grandstanding is preventing their PCs from getting anywhere.

Alignment advice: CN can be likened to Tolkien's Radagast the Brown. They are into their own thing, plain and simple. They have a well developed sense of personal freedom and rights. CN wants his liberty, so will respect that desire in others.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ajmastrean 07-29-04, 09:39 AM	Here is the situation...I started a new game with three close friends (we have played together before). One guy, lets call him Neil, has decided to play a CN elven rogue. When we got together to play, I looked at his sheet and said "CN is an often mis-played alignment" he responds with "why is that? because I can do whatever I want?" I proceeded to explain how that was Chaotic Stupic, not Chaotic Neutral. And I told him what neutral was and what chaotic was. Neil is a stubborn person, he is not much of a team player and is prone to get upset with others if he does not get his way. So, we start the game. We have a NN Dwarven Druid (His actions are leaning him toward NG), an NN Elven Ranger (His actions are keeping him NN), and the said Rogue (CG). The game is staged in a decent sized valley between two mighty mountain ranges. The Druid is summoned by another more powerful druid in the area to help him deal with a Blighter (evil druid). The rogue is a wanderer looking to join an assassins/rogues guild (not necessarily evil in my game). The ranger is secretly (to the others) an operative of the assasins guild watching the rogue. Otherwise he is just a woodsmen from the area. The rogue gets to the small hamlet (where everyone else is by coincidence ;)) and immediately starts to rob townsfolk. He rolls a terrible Hide check, but decent enough Move Silent and Sleight of Hand to pocket some change. The ranger watches from afar and the town sherriff (one of 3 people with class levels in the immediate area) approaches the rogue (20+ spot check) from behind. He taps him on the shoulder and offers him the chance to surrender and behave. The rogue draws rapier and attacks. The rogue gets hit a bit, the two druids (PC and NPC) hit him with some spells, the sherriff blows the signal whistle, but the rogue bolts out of town and disguises himself. Later, the rogue returns to the party who has now decided to find the village carpenter who had wandered off while diseased a few nights past. This part goes well, they return to town and get some reward. The rogue decides to go south to the bandit/squatter camp. He meets some important figures (master theif, alchemist, bandit lord). He went to the alchemist, bought some potions, and killed him! He blew up the alchemists shack (I made sure to throw some acid at him and have him take damage from the explosion, he's ~5 hp now) and dragged the doc out of the town into the woods. He stabs him to death in the woods. When he returns to town he attempts to talk with the master theif again, two half-orc "bouncers" tell him his brash actions have garnered him the distrust of the town (everyone saw him, he made no attempts at stealth). He attacks the bouncers! he's at 5 hp! The bouncers grab him and warn him again. The party (out of game) convinced him that it was a good idea to chill out. So, that was long, but important. Throughout the game, he has complained that hick towns shouldn't have such strong characters (the village sherriff and one druid he attacked alone) and that everyone I put in the game is 2 levels higher than him (again, game designed for 4 players). But all he's done is attacked unprovoking, friendly, merciful people! What should I do? should I deal in game or out? This kid has a history of stubbornness and "I have to get my way or its wrong" attitude. He has been contesting my calls as DM (I have not been rolling every check exactly by the book, but that's my call and they agreed with it already). I had plans for the alchemist to add to the story, now he's dead. The rogue is not too welcome in the first hamlet and the theives den is wary now.
Escef 07-29-04, 09:51 AM	He is playing a CE character, and a truely short sighted one at that. If he weren't your friend I'd advise booting him from the group. Since he is, tell him to change the alignment on his sheet, and if he balks point out that is how he has played his character. Let's face it, from your description, I'd say he'll either end up leaving the group or causing no end of trouble. Best advice, have him DM and pull the same kind of crap on him.
Camellan 07-29-04, 09:55 AM	Out of game. Explain that the game is supposed to be fun for everyone, not just him, and that his actions are ruining the game for you, and everyone else. Ask him to tone it down for the sake of everyone else. Don't accept "I'm just playing my character". The answer to that is "so am I and everyone I'm playing wants you dead, because you torque them all off, so tone it down." If he doesn't, well, kick him to the curb. It's rough, but that's the only way. In game solutions won't work, he'll just get mad that you're picking on him.
Lady Mia 07-29-04, 10:11 AM	Let the consequences of his actions land as they may. He attacked the bouncers while having 5 hp... this should have been the death of him. It even sounds like he was trying to see if you would let him die. Its a poor idea to remove the fear of death from your games. Also remind him that EVERY person in the game has a level even the NPCs. From the level 1 Commoner (Farm Boy) to the 10th level Expert (Dwarven Blacksmith). They just don't normally have PC classes. This means experienced town gaurds (5th level Warriors) can challenge your party. Also anyone can do anything they want. a LG character can go pillage and murder. Its your job as the GM to keep track of their actions and adjust their alignment accordingly as they play. With all this murder and mayhem I would have bumped his alignment to CE and double checked to see if his mental stats are being roleplayed right. Clearly these are the actions of a really unwise person. More than that he sounds like a disruptive player. I would let him kill himself off. Then suggest he try a different style of character for his new one. If he just keeps playing like this ask him to leave. Its your game, take control of it. Clearly he would be happier playing video games anyway. Just be sure to give him a chance to change first, it destroys friendships if you don't.
Henchcritter 07-29-04, 10:20 AM	I goofed up here, MrkGrismerpoints points out this character is CE I suggest you change his aligment to CE and read >this< (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=230824). Society will react poorly to obvious theft and murder, so read the 'hang them high' part.
MrkGrismer 07-29-04, 10:49 AM	Ah, the easy road to Chaotic Evil: Originally posted by ajmastrean He taps him on the shoulder and offers him the chance to surrender and behave. The rogue draws rapier and attacks. He went to the alchemist, bought some potions, and killed him! He blew up the alchemists shack (I made sure to throw some acid at him and have him take damage from the explosion, he's ~5 hp now) and dragged the doc out of the town into the woods. He stabs him to death in the woods. He attacks the bouncers! he's at 5 hp! The bouncers grab him and warn him again. The party (out of game) convinced him that it was a good idea to chill out. (sigh) Unfortunately he needs to DM some games himself, then he might understand. Alternately have a Blackguard try to recruit him (since he is also CE now). Something along the lines of: "My master has been watching you for some time now. We find it absolutely delicous how you revel in murder for murder's sake, join us and together we shall... (ring ring) huh? (ring ring) [answers cell phone] What? Lucas's lawyers say what? Okay. [hangs up]. Mumbles: damn LE lawyers. Uh, where was I, oh yeah, scratch that 'join us and together stuff', uh, oh come with me and join with the legions of darkness."
Naeron 07-29-04, 10:56 AM	The problem may be on the way to being solved because he is already well on the way to being CE. He's already racked up stealing from the poor (harms them and is thus evil in D&D terms) and the murders of two innocent people (evil). His complaint about NPC levels is nonsense. Hick towns in the middle of the wilderness are dangerous places - after all only the inhabitants themselves protect the place from wandering monsters and raiding parties. So anyone whose lived there a while, and survived, will absolutely have gained levels. This is 3rd Edition and now NPCs gain levels in NPC classes. Only the youngest adults in such a town would still be 1st level. His actions do seem to be incompatible with a CN alignment and if the player continues to ignore the fact that actions have consequences I would guess that the Rogue will not be alive much longer.
Cherrn 07-29-04, 11:04 AM	Nothing wrong with playing a CN character, sadly your friend is playing his CN character as CE. You should have killed him when he attacked the bouncers, or even better, as MrkGrismer mentioned, have a blackguard come recruit him, then kill him so the blackguard will seem like a hero to all the people of the farming community :smirk:
ajmastrean 07-29-04, 11:12 AM	Ok, he has played a few other games and DM'ed one vampires game that did not go well due to a lack of enthusiasm. And I know everyone has class levels, I meant PC class levels worth noting (5th lvl fighter as compared to 3rd lvl expert). I will talk to him out of game about his actions hurting the game and screwing up the other players. I will also attempt to talk to him about alignment. Like I said though, he is very stubborn. There are several opportunities in this bandit camp though, and I will present them regardless of his desicion to be evil/not be evil. The crime lord is going to ask him to dispose of the small town sherriff, he will have the opportunity to turn around and be good though (whether he takes out the crime lord, turns him in, or does nothing). He has already approached the master theif and somewhat asked how to get "in" with him. The master theif told him to prove his valor and that he should be resourceful enough to figure out what that meant (basically an open ended task - steal something worthy, sneak into somewhere gaurded, etc). I am sure the other players would side with the sherriff and I am thinking of making one of the crime lords henchmen a double agent (pretty intense for a small town and some bandits, but I like it). The next evil act he performs will get him an E, that's for sure. Provided the sherriff gets wind of the operations in the bandit camp (perhaps soon!) the other players will be approached to "take down" the crime lord. I am also thinking of throwing in a group of raiders who harass everyone, bandits and simple townsfolk. Perhaps if I can put the rogue's villainous friends in danger, he will help remove the raiders and help the village too.
Astanphaeus 07-29-04, 11:36 AM	Originally posted by ajmastrean What should I do? should I deal in game or out? This kid has a history of stubbornness and "I have to get my way or its wrong" attitude. He has been contesting my calls as DM (I have not been rolling every check exactly by the book, but that's my call and they agreed with it already). I'd say handle it OOG. Make the following points: 1. This is not a video game. 2. How he thinks the world should be is irrelevant. He's not the DM. You are. 3. He is not playing CN. He is playing CE. If he continues to play CE, the character will be retired, because that was not what he agreed to play, that was not the character that was okayed by you. If he continues to be completely psychotic, he'll die. 4. The game is not being run to accommodate his personal power trip. He is disrupting the game for you, and he is disrupting it for the other players. This is unacceptable. Be as tactful as you think you should be, but make sure these points are understood, and make sure he agrees to them. If he doesn't like any of the above, too bad. He's going to have to get over it and grow up if he wants to participate. If he continues to be inconsiderate and disruptive, quarentine his antics. Give him a little corner where he can do whatever he wants. Don't roll for anything, just say 'okay, yeah you do it' without further embellishement, and ignore him as much as possible, while you run the real game for the other players. At the end of the session, give him 0 XP for completely disregarding the agreement he made with you. If that doesn't work, boot him. ~ A.
Cymraegmorgan 07-29-04, 11:40 AM	Kill the character, boot the player. That your patience has lasted this long is a sign of your strength of character, but think also of the other players. Sounds like this CE boor's grandstanding is preventing their PCs from getting anywhere. Alignment advice: CN can be likened to Tolkien's Radagast the Brown. They are into their own thing, plain and simple. They have a well developed sense of personal freedom and rights. CN wants his liberty, so will respect that desire in others.