"Once per day" means what? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Once per day" means what? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Saurstalk
07-05-05, 03:40 PM This post actually has a few issues needing to address. First, let me set the scenario, so you know where we're coming from.

1. It's 10 am and the PCs have been in combat since nearly 10 pm - nonstop. They've exhausted spells and special abilities .. e.g., stunning fist, which is at issue here.

2. Given the nonstop combat, I thought it necessary to insert some element of fatigue into the game.

House Rule: After a full hour of practically non-stop combat, Fort DC 11 v. fatigue. For additional consecutive hours, add one DC each hour if succeeds on roll. If fails on save, then fatigued. If PC continues combat for another hour upon being fatigued, Fort DC 11 v. exhaustion. (Add one DC each hour.)

NOTE: Game Time v. "Real Time." If you broke the round of combat down into "game time," then only minutes would have elapsed. But I am including minutes elapsing due to walking about, climbing, conversation and the like, so as to add to some realism that the PCs have been at this for quite a while. (Hence, the need to add a feeling of fatigue.)

3. I've created a potion that serves as a bolstering tool during such prolonged combat scenarios:

Refresh
Transmutation
Brd 4, Clr 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4,
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing humanoid touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell, when cast on a living humanoid creature, gives them a refreshing burst of euphoria. They regain Hit Points as though they had rested for a night(though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage). Additionally, it heals an amount of non-lethal damage equal to the amount of hit points the target recovers, and heals the target of exhaustion and fatigue.

Note: This will help minimally with restoring some hps, as well as removing fatigue. The issue, it would be too powerful to allow it to act completely like 8 hrs sleep - i.e., spells regained, etc.

Issue: One of my players thinks that supernatural abilities, like stunning fist, which you can use only certain times per day, ought to be refreshed along w/ fatigue and hps. While this is a house rule spell, I'm trying to have it function fairly within game dynamics. It seems that allowing supernatural abilities to revitalize is only one step from spells being renewed.

4. Once per day means (what)? Does it mean once every 24 hours or once per time between encampments? Obviously, if the group camped out regularly, then we wouldn't have a problem, but because they've been pushing through without rest, it seems that the once every 24 hours ought to apply. Hence, this all began around 10 pm last night and its now 10 am. Should it reset come dawn? Or should it reset when the last stunning fist was used up?
scott644
07-05-05, 04:25 PM 4. Once per day means (what)? Does it mean once every 24 hours or once per time between encampments? Obviously, if the group camped out regularly, then we wouldn't have a problem, but because they've been pushing through without rest, it seems that the once every 24 hours ought to apply. Hence, this all began around 10 pm last night and its now 10 am. Should it reset come dawn? Or should it reset when the last stunning fist was used up?

The one reference I have is with regard spell-like abilities. In the articles I've seen about spell-like abilities the once per day restriction was read to mean a 24-hour wait between uses. It's been a year or so, and this may have changed, but that's my understanding. To handle the supernatural aspect versus the physical healing aspect of your spell, you could say it implements change to the physical but not magical aspect of a being.

And I'd wonder about the level of that spell. You're talking about a fairly powerful healing spell here. Should it even be on the sorceror/wizard list at all? If so, it should be a couple levels higher unless it works in a way that does not involve direct physical change to the target. An obvious option is time-dilation, but that would virtually guarantee the spell to be 8th or 9th level arcane (along with potentially allowing the renewal of availability of spells and supernatural abilities - better make it epic if that's the case).
Astinex
07-05-05, 04:25 PM When faced with this, I rule the following;

Once a day = Once every 24 hours

1) If the ability fits closer to a magical effect, (i.e. a spell), then I rule the PC must rest between uses per the rules regulating casters.

2) If the ability is more of an effect that needs time to build, (i.e. breath weapons), I rule the time period given must pass.

In either case if the PC rests I've allowed the ability to refresh at the next dawn, or immediately after awaking on the following dated day.

In case #2, if the PC does not rest, the ability recharges after the said time passes. (In your example, this would be 24 hours after being used.)

Clarification: In regards to your potion I would rule it only affects fatigue, not replenishable abilities. If you allow abilities to be replenished you open the door for PC's to abuse certain spells/ability combinations.
OGS-Remix
07-05-05, 04:27 PM 4. Once per day means (what)? Does it mean once every 24 hours or once per time between encampments? Obviously, if the group camped out regularly, then we wouldn't have a problem, but because they've been pushing through without rest, it seems that the once every 24 hours ought to apply. Hence, this all began around 10 pm last night and its now 10 am. Should it reset come dawn? Or should it reset when the last stunning fist was used up?

No comment on your other ideas, but I have always treated 24 hours as 24 hours since the skill or ability was used.

Having it reset at a certain time each day can lead to problems of exactly when should it reset or using the skill/ability right before it does.
Moonflyer
07-05-05, 04:45 PM Already rules that govern said actions...

1. PHB Page 164, Forced March
2. PHB Page 93, Endurance Feat
3. DMG Page 33, Ability Checks

Traveling and adventuring for more then 8 hours brings Con into play... forced march rules and Con checks. I have also incorpoorated another rule, along the lines of running (PHB Page 144), that includes continuous fighting/combat.

Each character can fight continuously for a number of rounds equal to his Con score + half their level rounding down before they need to make a Con check DC 10. You must check again each round in which you continue to fight/are in combat, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you make. When you fail this check, you are considered fatigued, thus rules for being fatigue apply until you rest for 1 minute. So a 5th level fighter with a Con score of 16 can fight for 18 round (16 Con + 5th level/2 rounded down) before Con checks begin... he fails he is fatigued until he rest for 1 minute.
Thoronmir
07-05-05, 04:47 PM In my campaigns, "Once per Day" means the character must wait 24 hours between using the ability. So, if Bob the Monk uses Stunning Fists at 10:00 p.m. on Monday, he can't use it again until 10:00 p.m. on Tuesday. Rest or sleep does not affect this. If Bob doesn't actually use it again until 11:00 a.m. on Wednesday, he can't use it a third time until 11:00 a.m. on Thursday.

I have a house rule that requires all characters get a minimum amount of sleep or rest or suffer fatigue effects the next day (it's similar to the rule for forced march). If that's the basis for your fatigue rule, then I have no objection. However, if you're simply saying that an hour of strenuous activity (i.e., combat) requires that the party make a save or become fatigued, then I wouldn't play under such a rule. The Hit Point system is intended to account for the fatigue of battle ... not every loss of HP means you were actually struck by the attack.

If a PC fights for an hour in game time and still has HP left, then he's probably very tired, but should not suffer an arbitrary additional penalty. The "fatigue" of battle is represented by the fact that the PC's a little slower and a lot easier to drop than if he was fresh (i.e., it takes a smaller amount of damage to render the PC unconscious). If he has HP left because he's received some magical healing during the battle (potions, wands, spells), then such magics ought to also "refresh" the character as they restore lost HP.

E.g., Bob the Monk starts with 50 HP but he's taken 40 HP damage during the fight. Bob has 10 HP left and he's certainly feeling winded. We know that Bob is tired because he's likely to succumb after another couple of attacks. The 11 points of damage that would now render Bob unconscious poses a mortal threat. But, at the start of the battle (when Bob was fresh), Bob would have laughed off 11 points.

If Nancy the Cleric cures 20 points of Bob's damage, not only do some of Bob's wounds close, but Bob also feels reinvigorated ... almost as strong as he felt when the battle began. Bob's a little more agile, a little more focused and those 11 points of damage that seemed so deadly a moment ago pose less of a threat now.

As for the spell you craft, it already exists ... it's called Cure [insert Light, Moderate, Severe] Wounds.
Moonflyer
07-05-05, 04:57 PM I said nothing about per hour... maybe I should clearify: this is meant per encounter. If an encounter last more then said amount of time each member and enemy would need to start making Con checks. For me, it brings an added element of realism into the game.
Nom
07-05-05, 10:34 PM 4. Once per day means (what)? Does it mean once every 24 hours or once per time between encampments? Obviously, if the group camped out regularly, then we wouldn't have a problem, but because they've been pushing through without rest, it seems that the once every 24 hours ought to apply. Hence, this all began around 10 pm last night and its now 10 am. Should it reset come dawn? Or should it reset when the last stunning fist was used up?The trouble about reading "once per day" as "24 hours recharge" is that it actually ends up being significantly less than once per day.

I'd recommend using the clerical spell rules. The item or ability recharges at a particular time each day (waking from rest / dawn / equivalent is good), but only if it wasn't used within the last 8 hours.
Saurstalk
07-06-05, 01:02 AM The trouble about reading "once per day" as "24 hours recharge" is that it actually ends up being significantly less than once per day.

I'd recommend using the clerical spell rules. The item or ability recharges at a particular time each day (waking from rest / dawn / equivalent is good), but only if it wasn't used within the last 8 hours.

We decided on 6 am.
celtredleg
07-06-05, 10:54 AM I dont use a time log to keep track of exactly when an encounter was. Sometime multiple encounters happen in a day, and at night as well. To keep myself from distractions like when does it rest, I just use midnight.

Yes I know once in a while they use something at 11:00 pm and the again at 01:00, but not often. Players also like not having to track exactly when everything happened.
kaldrin
07-06-05, 12:02 PM I've used the 24 hr cycle from when it was used last. And I do have a rough idea on whether the encounter happened in the day or afternoon or night. It's rough, so the 24 clock can be plus or minus probably 4 or 5 hours. It's a soft rule as far as I'm concerned.
Always-Late
07-06-05, 01:40 PM Well, I don't like the 24 hour rule because you end up using it 5 AM one day, then 6 AM the next, and then 7 AM, and then 8 AM, and it just gets pushed farther and farther back into the day until you don't use it.
kaldrin
07-06-05, 02:41 PM Well, I don't like the 24 hour rule because you end up using it 5 AM one day, then 6 AM the next, and then 7 AM, and then 8 AM, and it just gets pushed farther and farther back into the day until you don't use it.

If you're that **** about tracking time I'd hate to be in your campaign. Seriously, I can count on one hand the times over the past 20 years of gaming when the tabulation of time was important.
Always-Late
07-06-05, 04:07 PM If you're that **** about tracking time I'd hate to be in your campaign. Seriously, I can count on one hand the times over the past 20 years of gaming when the tabulation of time was important.I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm saying that it would be important to keep casting later in the day, and it'd just get pushed back. Nothing wrong with counting, but I think 16 hours between casting with the added restriction of not casting again before the next sunrise.
Phrennzy
07-06-05, 04:18 PM I use the same idea as for spell casters.

After 8 hours of rest, you can use it again.

So if you Stunning Fist someone at 11PM, and then sleep, when you wake up you can Stunning Fist someone for breakfast at 7AM.

But if you rest again for 8 hours, you don't get em again.
Moonflyer
07-06-05, 04:20 PM A day is a day... starts a 12:00am ends at 11:59pm... once per day is anytime between those times. You start putting time restrictions on powers that say once a day then you need to change the power to once every 24 hours.
clarkvalentine
07-06-05, 04:42 PM I'd recommend using the clerical spell rules. The item or ability recharges at a particular time each day (waking from rest / dawn / equivalent is good), but only if it wasn't used within the last 8 hours.

Our group finds it easiest to do this - you get the 1/day things back after a night's rest.
kaldrin
07-06-05, 05:13 PM I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm saying that it would be important to keep casting later in the day, and it'd just get pushed back. Nothing wrong with counting, but I think 16 hours between casting with the added restriction of not casting again before the next sunrise.

I'm not asking anything.

What I was saying is the 'day' is a soft limit, not an absolute. You might end up using a 1/day ability with only 12 hrs between the last one if you bothered to keep track of each hour of game time. The way I see it, the day is only an estimated value.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Saurstalk 07-05-05, 03:40 PM	This post actually has a few issues needing to address. First, let me set the scenario, so you know where we're coming from. 1. It's 10 am and the PCs have been in combat since nearly 10 pm - nonstop. They've exhausted spells and special abilities .. e.g., stunning fist, which is at issue here. 2. Given the nonstop combat, I thought it necessary to insert some element of fatigue into the game. House Rule: After a full hour of practically non-stop combat, Fort DC 11 v. fatigue. For additional consecutive hours, add one DC each hour if succeeds on roll. If fails on save, then fatigued. If PC continues combat for another hour upon being fatigued, Fort DC 11 v. exhaustion. (Add one DC each hour.) NOTE: Game Time v. "Real Time." If you broke the round of combat down into "game time," then only minutes would have elapsed. But I am including minutes elapsing due to walking about, climbing, conversation and the like, so as to add to some realism that the PCs have been at this for quite a while. (Hence, the need to add a feeling of fatigue.) 3. I've created a potion that serves as a bolstering tool during such prolonged combat scenarios: Refresh Transmutation Brd 4, Clr 3, Drd 3, Sor/Wiz 4, Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Target: Willing humanoid touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This spell, when cast on a living humanoid creature, gives them a refreshing burst of euphoria. They regain Hit Points as though they had rested for a night(though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage). Additionally, it heals an amount of non-lethal damage equal to the amount of hit points the target recovers, and heals the target of exhaustion and fatigue. Note: This will help minimally with restoring some hps, as well as removing fatigue. The issue, it would be too powerful to allow it to act completely like 8 hrs sleep - i.e., spells regained, etc. Issue: One of my players thinks that supernatural abilities, like stunning fist, which you can use only certain times per day, ought to be refreshed along w/ fatigue and hps. While this is a house rule spell, I'm trying to have it function fairly within game dynamics. It seems that allowing supernatural abilities to revitalize is only one step from spells being renewed. 4. Once per day means (what)? Does it mean once every 24 hours or once per time between encampments? Obviously, if the group camped out regularly, then we wouldn't have a problem, but because they've been pushing through without rest, it seems that the once every 24 hours ought to apply. Hence, this all began around 10 pm last night and its now 10 am. Should it reset come dawn? Or should it reset when the last stunning fist was used up?
scott644 07-05-05, 04:25 PM	4. Once per day means (what)? Does it mean once every 24 hours or once per time between encampments? Obviously, if the group camped out regularly, then we wouldn't have a problem, but because they've been pushing through without rest, it seems that the once every 24 hours ought to apply. Hence, this all began around 10 pm last night and its now 10 am. Should it reset come dawn? Or should it reset when the last stunning fist was used up? The one reference I have is with regard spell-like abilities. In the articles I've seen about spell-like abilities the once per day restriction was read to mean a 24-hour wait between uses. It's been a year or so, and this may have changed, but that's my understanding. To handle the supernatural aspect versus the physical healing aspect of your spell, you could say it implements change to the physical but not magical aspect of a being. And I'd wonder about the level of that spell. You're talking about a fairly powerful healing spell here. Should it even be on the sorceror/wizard list at all? If so, it should be a couple levels higher unless it works in a way that does not involve direct physical change to the target. An obvious option is time-dilation, but that would virtually guarantee the spell to be 8th or 9th level arcane (along with potentially allowing the renewal of availability of spells and supernatural abilities - better make it epic if that's the case).
Astinex 07-05-05, 04:25 PM	When faced with this, I rule the following; Once a day = Once every 24 hours 1) If the ability fits closer to a magical effect, (i.e. a spell), then I rule the PC must rest between uses per the rules regulating casters. 2) If the ability is more of an effect that needs time to build, (i.e. breath weapons), I rule the time period given must pass. In either case if the PC rests I've allowed the ability to refresh at the next dawn, or immediately after awaking on the following dated day. In case #2, if the PC does not rest, the ability recharges after the said time passes. (In your example, this would be 24 hours after being used.) Clarification: In regards to your potion I would rule it only affects fatigue, not replenishable abilities. If you allow abilities to be replenished you open the door for PC's to abuse certain spells/ability combinations.
OGS-Remix 07-05-05, 04:27 PM	4. Once per day means (what)? Does it mean once every 24 hours or once per time between encampments? Obviously, if the group camped out regularly, then we wouldn't have a problem, but because they've been pushing through without rest, it seems that the once every 24 hours ought to apply. Hence, this all began around 10 pm last night and its now 10 am. Should it reset come dawn? Or should it reset when the last stunning fist was used up? No comment on your other ideas, but I have always treated 24 hours as 24 hours since the skill or ability was used. Having it reset at a certain time each day can lead to problems of exactly when should it reset or using the skill/ability right before it does.
Moonflyer 07-05-05, 04:45 PM	Already rules that govern said actions... 1. PHB Page 164, Forced March 2. PHB Page 93, Endurance Feat 3. DMG Page 33, Ability Checks Traveling and adventuring for more then 8 hours brings Con into play... forced march rules and Con checks. I have also incorpoorated another rule, along the lines of running (PHB Page 144), that includes continuous fighting/combat. Each character can fight continuously for a number of rounds equal to his Con score + half their level rounding down before they need to make a Con check DC 10. You must check again each round in which you continue to fight/are in combat, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you make. When you fail this check, you are considered fatigued, thus rules for being fatigue apply until you rest for 1 minute. So a 5th level fighter with a Con score of 16 can fight for 18 round (16 Con + 5th level/2 rounded down) before Con checks begin... he fails he is fatigued until he rest for 1 minute.
Thoronmir 07-05-05, 04:47 PM	In my campaigns, "Once per Day" means the character must wait 24 hours between using the ability. So, if Bob the Monk uses Stunning Fists at 10:00 p.m. on Monday, he can't use it again until 10:00 p.m. on Tuesday. Rest or sleep does not affect this. If Bob doesn't actually use it again until 11:00 a.m. on Wednesday, he can't use it a third time until 11:00 a.m. on Thursday. I have a house rule that requires all characters get a minimum amount of sleep or rest or suffer fatigue effects the next day (it's similar to the rule for forced march). If that's the basis for your fatigue rule, then I have no objection. However, if you're simply saying that an hour of strenuous activity (i.e., combat) requires that the party make a save or become fatigued, then I wouldn't play under such a rule. The Hit Point system is intended to account for the fatigue of battle ... not every loss of HP means you were actually struck by the attack. If a PC fights for an hour in game time and still has HP left, then he's probably very tired, but should not suffer an arbitrary additional penalty. The "fatigue" of battle is represented by the fact that the PC's a little slower and a lot easier to drop than if he was fresh (i.e., it takes a smaller amount of damage to render the PC unconscious). If he has HP left because he's received some magical healing during the battle (potions, wands, spells), then such magics ought to also "refresh" the character as they restore lost HP. E.g., Bob the Monk starts with 50 HP but he's taken 40 HP damage during the fight. Bob has 10 HP left and he's certainly feeling winded. We know that Bob is tired because he's likely to succumb after another couple of attacks. The 11 points of damage that would now render Bob unconscious poses a mortal threat. But, at the start of the battle (when Bob was fresh), Bob would have laughed off 11 points. If Nancy the Cleric cures 20 points of Bob's damage, not only do some of Bob's wounds close, but Bob also feels reinvigorated ... almost as strong as he felt when the battle began. Bob's a little more agile, a little more focused and those 11 points of damage that seemed so deadly a moment ago pose less of a threat now. As for the spell you craft, it already exists ... it's called Cure [insert Light, Moderate, Severe] Wounds.
Moonflyer 07-05-05, 04:57 PM	I said nothing about per hour... maybe I should clearify: this is meant per encounter. If an encounter last more then said amount of time each member and enemy would need to start making Con checks. For me, it brings an added element of realism into the game.
Nom 07-05-05, 10:34 PM	4. Once per day means (what)? Does it mean once every 24 hours or once per time between encampments? Obviously, if the group camped out regularly, then we wouldn't have a problem, but because they've been pushing through without rest, it seems that the once every 24 hours ought to apply. Hence, this all began around 10 pm last night and its now 10 am. Should it reset come dawn? Or should it reset when the last stunning fist was used up?The trouble about reading "once per day" as "24 hours recharge" is that it actually ends up being significantly less than once per day. I'd recommend using the clerical spell rules. The item or ability recharges at a particular time each day (waking from rest / dawn / equivalent is good), but only if it wasn't used within the last 8 hours.
Saurstalk 07-06-05, 01:02 AM	The trouble about reading "once per day" as "24 hours recharge" is that it actually ends up being significantly less than once per day. I'd recommend using the clerical spell rules. The item or ability recharges at a particular time each day (waking from rest / dawn / equivalent is good), but only if it wasn't used within the last 8 hours. We decided on 6 am.
celtredleg 07-06-05, 10:54 AM	I dont use a time log to keep track of exactly when an encounter was. Sometime multiple encounters happen in a day, and at night as well. To keep myself from distractions like when does it rest, I just use midnight. Yes I know once in a while they use something at 11:00 pm and the again at 01:00, but not often. Players also like not having to track exactly when everything happened.
kaldrin 07-06-05, 12:02 PM	I've used the 24 hr cycle from when it was used last. And I do have a rough idea on whether the encounter happened in the day or afternoon or night. It's rough, so the 24 clock can be plus or minus probably 4 or 5 hours. It's a soft rule as far as I'm concerned.
Always-Late 07-06-05, 01:40 PM	Well, I don't like the 24 hour rule because you end up using it 5 AM one day, then 6 AM the next, and then 7 AM, and then 8 AM, and it just gets pushed farther and farther back into the day until you don't use it.
kaldrin 07-06-05, 02:41 PM	Well, I don't like the 24 hour rule because you end up using it 5 AM one day, then 6 AM the next, and then 7 AM, and then 8 AM, and it just gets pushed farther and farther back into the day until you don't use it. If you're that **** about tracking time I'd hate to be in your campaign. Seriously, I can count on one hand the times over the past 20 years of gaming when the tabulation of time was important.
Always-Late 07-06-05, 04:07 PM	If you're that **** about tracking time I'd hate to be in your campaign. Seriously, I can count on one hand the times over the past 20 years of gaming when the tabulation of time was important.I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm saying that it would be important to keep casting later in the day, and it'd just get pushed back. Nothing wrong with counting, but I think 16 hours between casting with the added restriction of not casting again before the next sunrise.
Phrennzy 07-06-05, 04:18 PM	I use the same idea as for spell casters. After 8 hours of rest, you can use it again. So if you Stunning Fist someone at 11PM, and then sleep, when you wake up you can Stunning Fist someone for breakfast at 7AM. But if you rest again for 8 hours, you don't get em again.
Moonflyer 07-06-05, 04:20 PM	A day is a day... starts a 12:00am ends at 11:59pm... once per day is anytime between those times. You start putting time restrictions on powers that say once a day then you need to change the power to once every 24 hours.
clarkvalentine 07-06-05, 04:42 PM	I'd recommend using the clerical spell rules. The item or ability recharges at a particular time each day (waking from rest / dawn / equivalent is good), but only if it wasn't used within the last 8 hours. Our group finds it easiest to do this - you get the 1/day things back after a night's rest.
kaldrin 07-06-05, 05:13 PM	I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're asking. I'm saying that it would be important to keep casting later in the day, and it'd just get pushed back. Nothing wrong with counting, but I think 16 hours between casting with the added restriction of not casting again before the next sunrise. I'm not asking anything. What I was saying is the 'day' is a soft limit, not an absolute. You might end up using a 1/day ability with only 12 hrs between the last one if you bothered to keep track of each hour of game time. The way I see it, the day is only an estimated value.