Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Paradisio 04-27-05, 01:37 AM	I don't know about anyone else... but my DM seems to abuse it... a lot. When should the players roll for spot? My DM makes me roll spot for things in plain view... kinda dumb in my opinion, how could you miss a 10 foot high wall (lol)? I am trying to not do this, only roll for small things and so forth... the kind of things that should probably be search, and not spot. Any tips for proper use? Sorry if it sounds dumb.
Draco Strang 04-27-05, 01:41 AM	My rule of thumb is, if it's something that a child would have no trouble picking up on, even without their full attention, I'll let them just see it. For example...an army a half mile away on a plain, or that 10 foot wall you mentioned. Not a big deal at all. It's really a matter of common sense. I guess that varies from DM to DM.
Dash Branaghan 04-27-05, 01:44 AM	Spot checks should be done anytime you as DM feel it is necessary to catch some detail, whether it's the ambush up ahead, the tripwire that you're about to get caught up on, or the barmaid eyeing you in the corner. In some cases, these things can be caught with a search check, but search is an active skill, while spot can be both active and passive...search means the party is actively seeking something out, while spot means they might be looking for something, or they aren't necessarily looking for it, but might just see it anyway (such as the tripwire, or maybe a spider's web filament, stuff like that). Dash
PenderGrass 04-27-05, 03:01 AM	My DM makes me roll spot for things in plain view... kinda dumb in my opinion, how could you miss a 10 foot high wall (lol)? I can totally see a situation where I would have someone roll to Spot a 10' tall wall. You come full bore around the corner, at the same time you said you were also trying to keep an eye behind you, as well as having limited visibility -SLAM! Right into the wall you went - all because you missed that DC7 wall in a situation that warranted that you needed to make as per the DM. Hell, people walk into things all the time because our eyes are not our strong point. Now, whether your DM was using a perfectly valid circumstance to ask for a Spot roll (and considering many DMs use falsified roll checks just to remind the Players that the game is happening - and not that new wallpaper on so-and-so's cell phone), that is still left unsaid by you. Now, Paradisio, whether you are here as a Player in a game asking when a die roll should be demanded by the DM, or trying to validate some argument's side, I am not sure yet -BUT, I can tell you that a DM is well-within their rights to demand a die roll at anytime during the game. In fact, that is a DMs job in a lot of ways. If you are asking as a DM when should you have your Players roll a Spot Check, well then the answer is simply - "anytime you feel the situation warrants it." Keeping in mind that a Spot Check is for something that the PC would only notice by chance (he or she is not looking for It). A group of Players announce that their PCs are looking for "anything out of the ordinary" in a library they are searching. The DM rolls their Search checks at the same time he demands a Spot check from all of them. Why? Well, they may spot that the a section of the floor had silver nails - not iron like the other parts of the floor. A floor is not "out of the ordinary" for a library. Unless someone specifically says they are "seearching the floor" the DM rules that it must take a Spot check to notice this feature. It could also be a shadow that is on one of the windows momentarily. Or it could just be a roll to distract the Players that aren't paying attention to the other details that you are relaying to them that will prove handy to saving their lives later on. Whatever you do as a DM, always make sure there is a good reason for your die rolls that you demand of your Players, otherwise you may end up without any Players. This doesn't mean that a DM must tell the Player what the die roll was for, or explain it in any way - no, this is because sometimes it is better that the Player not know. :dragon: ****
Gnome_Dragon_Disciple 04-27-05, 03:01 AM	I house rule that at all times characters are taking 10 on Spot unless they explicitly say otherwise, and apply situational modifiers as appropriate. Normally this is a -2 cumulative every time the character's movement doubles, so a halfling in no armor at a full run at 80'/round would have a -6 on his spot mod. A character also gains a +2 for every 10'/round the character travels, or +6 by reducing speed to 5'/round, whichever is higher. However, I also go for a theatric game, so even things the party wouldn't normally get on a "take 10" and aren't actively searching for I give them, but the circumstances are somewhat less favorable. I also assume the Aid Another rule is in place, but all searching gain the +2 when travelling in groups, and that's NOT cumulative per-character searching. For example, most DM's would make a party roll for an ambush. I either give it to them before the ambush can spring to full effectivity if the party's collective spot is high enough, or give it to them after the ambush is inevitable but before it's too late to prepare.
Siduakal 04-27-05, 03:03 AM	Spot checks please.. Player 1: 20 Player 2: 17 Player 3: 3 Player 4: 23 Player 5: 9 "Okay.. 1 and 4 you see that the walls are blue"
Head_PC 1 04-27-05, 03:08 AM	If your DM gets too out of hand, shoot him in the face. With a hammer, of course. Violence is never the answer. :thumbsup:
Paradisio 04-27-05, 03:09 AM	The situation I used as an example, was the party standing still, not in combat, rolling to spot a wall less than 100 feet away. Yes, well on a semi-related note... Is it best to roll for the players sometimes? I'm deisgning an upcoming dungeon, and I really wanted to use some illusion traps ("I think ill pull this lever"... "As you pull the lever your fingers are cut off... :eek:") the players are going to know something is up when I ask them to make will saves every couple of rooms with no explanation.
Didge 04-27-05, 03:25 AM	Thought I'd throw in some 2 cents...use it if you like it. I just have everyone roll a bunch of d20's at the end of each session, each in order and I record their rolls. The number of times each person rolls ranges from 10-20 or so. I record these numbers and apply them for the next session for things that the PC's don't necessarily need to know about, but might tip them off. Things like hidden/secret doors, spot checks to notice something particular, saving throws that I don't necessarily want them to know if they've made or failed, etc. My player's tend to metagame alot, and I've found this method works very well. Sometimes I'll mix the numbers up before the game of the next session and when the opportunity comes up I ask them to roll a dice equivalant to the total number of dice they rolled last session. Thus if I told them to roll 10 d20's, I might mix up the numbers for the next game, and when the need for a d20 is called for I'd ask that player to roll a d10 instead. This way they're not sure if they were successful or not. They're the one's that roll (both the original d20 and the d10), so it is their karma. I've found that this helps us stay more focused on the roleplaying and not the roll-playing and cuts down on metagaming. It also adds that bit of mystery that seems to be lacking.
Nom 04-27-05, 03:40 AM	Yes, well on a semi-related note... Is it best to roll for the players sometimes?DMG pg 18: "rolling dice".
PenderGrass 04-27-05, 04:31 AM	The situation I used as an example, was the party standing still, not in combat, rolling to spot a wall less than 100 feet away. Again, it doesn't matter - since you were a Player and he was the DM. It is always the DMs right to call for a Spot Check (or any other die roll) when he feels justified in doing so. But, I have to ask a couple-few questions, since it is hard to determine from what you are saying whether the DM was justified by most normal RPG standards or not: 1. What were the exact circumstances? 2. What was the DC? 3. Did anyone fail? 4. What was the exact answer given for someone failing - if anyone did? :dragon: ****
Harold DeVor 04-27-05, 04:44 AM	Is it best to roll for the players sometimes? At the start of the game I make the players do 10-20 rolls which I make a note of them simply work through this list for spot checks, search etc. Saves time and cuts out on the "a 1, I must have missed something." syndrome.
Paradisio 04-27-05, 04:45 AM	No one failed, fortunately... Anyways, I just found it a tad moronic at the moment. Anyways, I would prefer not to turn this into another thread about my weird DM.
Uberman 04-27-05, 06:02 AM	did anybody roll extremely high? If not, then maybe it was a spot check to see something ELSE, and when everybody failed, he told them they saw a wall. I do stuff like that to my players. ALso it could've just been a 'random spot check', so that if he makes you make one LATER and all you see is a tree, you'll never know which one(s) was (were) important. It's a good tactic, making the PC's roll stuff when they don't have to... Hell, I even make them do saves/skill checks every once in a while, tell them 'oh nothing happens.. yet..' with a weird gleam in my eye, then either use that save later, or make them make another save later.. that way they never know "oh Sh*t i failed a will save.. Um... I try to put my hand through the wall in case it's an illusion... yeah.. can't be TOO careful...." I don't like metagaming or anything, and I like keeping the suspension of disbelief for as long as possible. So in closing, if your DM asks you to make a weird roll and you don't have a clue WHY, well just be sure that HE (or SHE) has probably (though not allways) got a good reason for it. Maybe you missed spotting the spy sitting on top of the wall.