"SAW" styled adventure [Archive] - Wizards Community

"SAW" styled adventure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StarFyre
08-02-07, 08:27 AM Hello,

I'm trying to write up, within a lich tower, a type of SAW styled area. So, players, if they get captured, end up in weird traps/games...

However, unlike just the SAW ones where, people sacrifice their own body parts, etc to prove that they want to live, I want an added goal...integrating multiple people in the same trap/game/puzzle.

ie. imagine 2 characters that don't get a long that well (CN rogue, and LG paladin :D ), forced in a trap like saw that involves some type of self sacrifice but then, at the same time, the sacrifice requires the aid of the other person or neither will live.

Has anyone done such a trap before? any ideas/suggestions?

Sanjay
Infernostrider
08-02-07, 08:39 AM baldurs gate 2's starting area features a djinni (or summin like that) that gives you a what-would-you-do question; You and your sibling are locked up in seperate cells, without verbal/visual/magical or any other type of access to each other. each cell holds a button. Your captor shows up and tells you of your sibling, and explains: if you press the button and your sibling does not, your sibling is free and you die, if you don't press the button and your sibling does, your sibling dies and you go free, if you both press the button at the same time you both go free, if neither of you press the button you both die

the dialogue options given are basicly to press or not to press, or simply that you dunno what you'd do

but the situation might be a good idea among 2 player characters, especially if both are evil (aka self serving, refusing to push the button until the by the DM specified time is nearing its end, and only because of the odds they might both go free. or ofcourse, neither pushing the button ^^ just don't inform them of who it is exactly who got trapped on the other side)
KingCrab
08-02-07, 03:26 PM Woah, that's nasty a nasty prisoner's dilemma. Was this a module or the computer game baldur's gate 2?

I immediately thought of: How many levels would they be willing to give up to live?
Onikani
08-02-07, 03:34 PM this is tricky...

its a lot easier for player to have his pc cut off a foot to get out of a chain, than it is for an actual person to do it to themself.

Forcing people to work together is cool, in fact its what half of dnd is about anyway. Just try to keep it 'scary' with 'real' consequences.

Good luck.
The man they call Boxhead
08-02-07, 04:38 PM Woah, that's nasty a nasty prisoner's dilemma. Was this a module or the computer game baldur's gate 2?

I immediately thought of: How many levels would they be willing to give up to live?

Assuming neither of you is a jerk, it's not a real dilemma at all. What possible reason would there be for you not to press the button? Especially since you know that both of you go free if both of you press it.
Nephlite
08-02-07, 04:45 PM Woah, that's nasty a nasty prisoner's dilemma. Was this a module or the computer game baldur's gate 2?

I immediately thought of: How many levels would they be willing to give up to live?

What happens: well, it was a question to see your beliefs.
a. You press it: you are master of your destiny (gave you free exp)
b. You wait and hope he presses it (gave you a monster and was despointed that in you).

you got more Exp for the press the button. But Buldar's Gate 2 was cool as traps, locked doors, etc gave exp if disarmed/opened.
Thinker89
08-02-07, 05:01 PM Assuming neither of you is a jerk, it's not a real dilemma at all. What possible reason would there be for you not to press the button? Especially since you know that both of you go free if both of you press it.

Because you both must press it at the same time. If you press it and your sibling hasn't pressed it yet you're dead. So, some people would sit there and hope the other person will press the button letting you live.
Kouk
08-02-07, 06:21 PM Hmm, I think I saw on a webcomic a party of adventurers was locked inside an inescapable room with only a small barred window in the door.

The solution was to kill the Rogue, chop him up into bits, shove him through the bars and then True Resurrect him on the other side, if I recall correctly.
Charlym_Zuardan
08-02-07, 07:56 PM i recently ran a puzzle dungeon that i made up, it might be able to give you some ideas, i'm not sure if its exactly what you are looking for but i know my players were going nuts.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=892939

feel free to pm me with any questions you might have on it, and feel free to use anything from it in your own campaign.
Xandria
08-02-07, 08:10 PM Hmm, I think I saw on a webcomic a party of adventurers was locked inside an inescapable room with only a small barred window in the door.

The solution was to kill the Rogue, chop him up into bits, shove him through the bars and then True Resurrect him on the other side, if I recall correctly.

I'm might steal that one...

For my campaign one of my NPCs is in that position. She's going to be a cloaked dancer, and she must cut off her foot to escape the cannibals that kidnapped her. My players might be slightly wary after that.
mcnoo
08-02-07, 10:01 PM What happens: well, it was a question to see your beliefs.
a. You press it: you are master of your destiny (gave you free exp)
b. You wait and hope he presses it (gave you a monster and was despointed that in you).

you got more Exp for the press the button. But Buldar's Gate 2 was cool as traps, locked doors, etc gave exp if disarmed/opened.

I'm just being needlessly pedantic, but it was based on alignment. Goodly people got xp for pressing, neutral got xp for not knowing what to do, evil got the xp for not pressing it.

Still not an original idea, that one's been floating around for decades, if not longer. Great game BG2, sadly it was shockingly unoriginal when it came to riddles and puzzles.

But on to the matter at hand. It's tricky running something saw like, seeing as the key elements are self preservation instinct, fear and mystery.
Now, while you can confuse your players all you like with mystery, fear and self preservation are very hard to get a hold of without some incredibly intense rp.

A big problem is, your players will be more than happy to sacrifice themselves because they'll expect that by losing something as an unavoidable plot point, they'll be rewarded with something other than survival.
If they are, then the entire basis of the saw mindset is ruined. If they aren't they'll winge about being picked on.

The idea of the madman's maze is nothing new. (the oldest popular example I can bring to mind is Scaramanga's fight with bond in the man with the golden gun, but even then it was far from fresh) The important things you need to keep in mind are as folows.

1) Why not just kill them?
This is a tricky one. "Because he' mad" doesn't quite cut it any more.
Some possible suggestions are that the party are being bet on (à la rat race), that their captor is a follower of a god of luck/chance/fate who insists that they are given a chance to survive, they are being examined by a "superior" creature like rats in a maze (à la cube zero) or it's the result of a maze spell (such is the wont of planescape's lady of pain)

2) What scares your players and their characters but isn't TOO harsh?
You can't just declare a TPK because they didn't get a riddle right, but you can't make it a fruitless exercise because they'll get out alive either way.
You need to find an ideal forefeit, but to be honest, I can't think of one quite clever enough to meet my standards at 3AM, I'll get back to you on that one.

3) What would challenge your players?
Dice rolling is dull and skill-less. You could do fort saves all night long and not challenge the people at your table one iota. It needs to be RP based.
Let's break it down into individual challenges. One for each party member, based on them personally.
Each one takes the form of an illusion-like (shadow conjured perhaps) scene that the character is dropped into the middle of, with no idea what their goal is. To succeed, they need to reach a set conclusion that should become apparent if they ask the right questions. The way I picture it (which is in a typically warped way) the task should be something contradictory to their morals but still the right thing to do.
It could be stepping in the path of an arrow to save your wife's illicit lover, killing a mass murderer in front of his wife and child, offering a demon someone else's soul so that you can live to save someone else, giving away a priceless treasure to save someone you've never met and never will, stepping back to let someone undeserving take your glory for a task.

It's a very tricky game to run, but if you put in he preparation and the effort (and get incredibly lucky) it'll work, and work well.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StarFyre 08-02-07, 08:27 AM	Hello, I'm trying to write up, within a lich tower, a type of SAW styled area. So, players, if they get captured, end up in weird traps/games... However, unlike just the SAW ones where, people sacrifice their own body parts, etc to prove that they want to live, I want an added goal...integrating multiple people in the same trap/game/puzzle. ie. imagine 2 characters that don't get a long that well (CN rogue, and LG paladin :D ), forced in a trap like saw that involves some type of self sacrifice but then, at the same time, the sacrifice requires the aid of the other person or neither will live. Has anyone done such a trap before? any ideas/suggestions? Sanjay
Infernostrider 08-02-07, 08:39 AM	baldurs gate 2's starting area features a djinni (or summin like that) that gives you a what-would-you-do question; You and your sibling are locked up in seperate cells, without verbal/visual/magical or any other type of access to each other. each cell holds a button. Your captor shows up and tells you of your sibling, and explains: if you press the button and your sibling does not, your sibling is free and you die, if you don't press the button and your sibling does, your sibling dies and you go free, if you both press the button at the same time you both go free, if neither of you press the button you both die the dialogue options given are basicly to press or not to press, or simply that you dunno what you'd do but the situation might be a good idea among 2 player characters, especially if both are evil (aka self serving, refusing to push the button until the by the DM specified time is nearing its end, and only because of the odds they might both go free. or ofcourse, neither pushing the button ^^ just don't inform them of who it is exactly who got trapped on the other side)
KingCrab 08-02-07, 03:26 PM	Woah, that's nasty a nasty prisoner's dilemma. Was this a module or the computer game baldur's gate 2? I immediately thought of: How many levels would they be willing to give up to live?
Onikani 08-02-07, 03:34 PM	this is tricky... its a lot easier for player to have his pc cut off a foot to get out of a chain, than it is for an actual person to do it to themself. Forcing people to work together is cool, in fact its what half of dnd is about anyway. Just try to keep it 'scary' with 'real' consequences. Good luck.
The man they call Boxhead 08-02-07, 04:38 PM	Woah, that's nasty a nasty prisoner's dilemma. Was this a module or the computer game baldur's gate 2? I immediately thought of: How many levels would they be willing to give up to live? Assuming neither of you is a jerk, it's not a real dilemma at all. What possible reason would there be for you not to press the button? Especially since you know that both of you go free if both of you press it.
Nephlite 08-02-07, 04:45 PM	Woah, that's nasty a nasty prisoner's dilemma. Was this a module or the computer game baldur's gate 2? I immediately thought of: How many levels would they be willing to give up to live? What happens: well, it was a question to see your beliefs. a. You press it: you are master of your destiny (gave you free exp) b. You wait and hope he presses it (gave you a monster and was despointed that in you). you got more Exp for the press the button. But Buldar's Gate 2 was cool as traps, locked doors, etc gave exp if disarmed/opened.
Thinker89 08-02-07, 05:01 PM	Assuming neither of you is a jerk, it's not a real dilemma at all. What possible reason would there be for you not to press the button? Especially since you know that both of you go free if both of you press it. Because you both must press it at the same time. If you press it and your sibling hasn't pressed it yet you're dead. So, some people would sit there and hope the other person will press the button letting you live.
Kouk 08-02-07, 06:21 PM	Hmm, I think I saw on a webcomic a party of adventurers was locked inside an inescapable room with only a small barred window in the door. The solution was to kill the Rogue, chop him up into bits, shove him through the bars and then True Resurrect him on the other side, if I recall correctly.
Charlym_Zuardan 08-02-07, 07:56 PM	i recently ran a puzzle dungeon that i made up, it might be able to give you some ideas, i'm not sure if its exactly what you are looking for but i know my players were going nuts. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=892939 feel free to pm me with any questions you might have on it, and feel free to use anything from it in your own campaign.
Xandria 08-02-07, 08:10 PM	Hmm, I think I saw on a webcomic a party of adventurers was locked inside an inescapable room with only a small barred window in the door. The solution was to kill the Rogue, chop him up into bits, shove him through the bars and then True Resurrect him on the other side, if I recall correctly. I'm might steal that one... For my campaign one of my NPCs is in that position. She's going to be a cloaked dancer, and she must cut off her foot to escape the cannibals that kidnapped her. My players might be slightly wary after that.
mcnoo 08-02-07, 10:01 PM	What happens: well, it was a question to see your beliefs. a. You press it: you are master of your destiny (gave you free exp) b. You wait and hope he presses it (gave you a monster and was despointed that in you). you got more Exp for the press the button. But Buldar's Gate 2 was cool as traps, locked doors, etc gave exp if disarmed/opened. I'm just being needlessly pedantic, but it was based on alignment. Goodly people got xp for pressing, neutral got xp for not knowing what to do, evil got the xp for not pressing it. Still not an original idea, that one's been floating around for decades, if not longer. Great game BG2, sadly it was shockingly unoriginal when it came to riddles and puzzles. But on to the matter at hand. It's tricky running something saw like, seeing as the key elements are self preservation instinct, fear and mystery. Now, while you can confuse your players all you like with mystery, fear and self preservation are very hard to get a hold of without some incredibly intense rp. A big problem is, your players will be more than happy to sacrifice themselves because they'll expect that by losing something as an unavoidable plot point, they'll be rewarded with something other than survival. If they are, then the entire basis of the saw mindset is ruined. If they aren't they'll winge about being picked on. The idea of the madman's maze is nothing new. (the oldest popular example I can bring to mind is Scaramanga's fight with bond in the man with the golden gun, but even then it was far from fresh) The important things you need to keep in mind are as folows. 1) Why not just kill them? This is a tricky one. "Because he' mad" doesn't quite cut it any more. Some possible suggestions are that the party are being bet on (à la rat race), that their captor is a follower of a god of luck/chance/fate who insists that they are given a chance to survive, they are being examined by a "superior" creature like rats in a maze (à la cube zero) or it's the result of a maze spell (such is the wont of planescape's lady of pain) 2) What scares your players and their characters but isn't TOO harsh? You can't just declare a TPK because they didn't get a riddle right, but you can't make it a fruitless exercise because they'll get out alive either way. You need to find an ideal forefeit, but to be honest, I can't think of one quite clever enough to meet my standards at 3AM, I'll get back to you on that one. 3) What would challenge your players? Dice rolling is dull and skill-less. You could do fort saves all night long and not challenge the people at your table one iota. It needs to be RP based. Let's break it down into individual challenges. One for each party member, based on them personally. Each one takes the form of an illusion-like (shadow conjured perhaps) scene that the character is dropped into the middle of, with no idea what their goal is. To succeed, they need to reach a set conclusion that should become apparent if they ask the right questions. The way I picture it (which is in a typically warped way) the task should be something contradictory to their morals but still the right thing to do. It could be stepping in the path of an arrow to save your wife's illicit lover, killing a mass murderer in front of his wife and child, offering a demon someone else's soul so that you can live to save someone else, giving away a priceless treasure to save someone you've never met and never will, stepping back to let someone undeserving take your glory for a task. It's a very tricky game to run, but if you put in he preparation and the effort (and get incredibly lucky) it'll work, and work well.