"Sick horrible mean twisted" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Sick horrible mean twisted" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Misyrr
03-01-04, 10:13 PM I run regular games on Sunday set in the Forgotten Realms. This last Sunday the PCs encountered some rather sadistic Banites/Zhentarim secretly operating in Silverymoon.

The PCs (after some not so lucky moments) ended up in the cells of these Banites, and more importantly into the hands of their torturer. After they learned that the party was not in fact allied to the Harpers (zone of truth), the fellow in charge decided that the party had to be done away with, so as to not have them living to report what they'd learned.

I then went into much detail about the halfling sorcerer PC being carried away, only moments after the druid was returned with several severed fingers. He was then tortured to death.

I didn't realize how much detail I had gone into until I asked people for feedback today... The halflings torture is what stuck with them. They all said it was a bit much, that is was sickening to listen to... I don't know if I should be ashamed because of this or happy that I actually managed to get such an emotional response.

One thing is for sure, the PCs will be extra pleased when they find one day that they are facing their long ago torturer, and this time they've got weapons and magic of their own to hurl.

What do you think?
Hyperion
03-01-04, 10:24 PM Well I gotta say that I probably wouldn't have been offended. I once had a PC captured by Bainanite monks and while he was paralysed the went to work on defiling him sexually. My PC's were shocked, but it made an impact on them. Recently I told that to one of my DMs and he said that if I tried that in a game he was playing in he'd leave. You just have to know your audience, and there's always that standard of violence and gore being ok as long as no one swears or gets naked. Stupid FCC.

Hyperion
Misyrr
03-01-04, 10:33 PM There was nothing sexual about this torture scene, the halfing was dismembered and then fed his ears, several teeth were ripped from his mouth, his eye was put out, and his hand was slowly sawed off.

He died of shock before they could do any more.

There was a "Fade to Black" scene though, where the 16 year old female human bard was taken away. That was sexual, though I did not go into detail (I checked with the PC before doing this, there are plans for the child, and he was not overly upset with what happened to his PC).
OmiKapSi
03-01-04, 10:39 PM I agree to some extent about people having double standards when it comes to what upsets them.

That said, I often find it useful to discuss the 'rating' of game that players will be cofortable with, using standard movie ratings (http://www.filmratings.com/guide.htm).

Most players I find are interested in PG-13 equivalents. I tend to run these, with the occasional R moment for shock value. I find that as long as these R bits are few and far between, they have plenty of impact.

As long as your players are over 13, I don't see anything ethically wrong with what you did.
You might want to ease up next time though. Or give a bit of warning that those with delicate sensibilities should leave the room for a bit.
Also keep in mind that character knowledge could be significant. If a character wanted to not know what was happening, they might be able to close their eyes and plug their ears.
VirgilCaine
03-01-04, 10:40 PM I would have asked about their limits beforehand or even before you started the game.

The description of the halfling was over the line for me. I would have simply asked, okay, they torture us to death, what kind of new PC do we make to get rrevenge?
MattMart
03-01-04, 10:43 PM well...evil is evil...and evil isnt nice...and nothing is more motivating than a nice graphic scene....sometimes the only way to get shocked characters is to shock the players....fear and shock are the hardest things for characters to role play...sometimes....its the only way...
Korhal IV
03-01-04, 10:46 PM This is a classic "Oops" scene. Just keep it in mind and tell people you'll never do it again.
Other than that, not much else you can or should do.
Misyrr
03-01-04, 10:48 PM Originally posted by VirgilCaine
I would have asked about their limits beforehand or even before you started the game.

The description of the halfling was over the line for me. I would have simply asked, okay, they torture us to death, what kind of new PC do we make to get rrevenge? Well, such things have come up before (very rarely) and nobody seemed upset then. I guess this time I just described the scene in such a way that it was actually sickening for the players to hear.

Along with the moaning about this I got plenty of responses about how PCs (and players) would very much be interested in a bit o' revenge.
NestroEmichae
03-01-04, 10:53 PM Sick horrible mean twisted

You called?

To be honest, almost all of my players are CoC vets. If they are shocked by anything less than graphic by now, then I haven't been doing my job right. I don't think you went too far at all. It's good to occasionally sicken the players. It reminds them exactly what they are fighting against. Those with lesser sensibilities should say something when you begin.
Phist
03-01-04, 11:03 PM I usually go into fairly graphic depictions of deaths (enemies or PCs) like "your sword finds a weak spot in his armor and slides in. He looks down at the weapon in his chest as the life fades from his eyes." Don't make me go into my descriptions of crits.:smirk:
Fixxxer
03-02-04, 01:47 AM Well, knowing that you've run similar scenes before without complain from your players, I'd say that it's probably a good thing that your description touched them. It just makes the revenge scene all the sweeter.
Twisted Puppy
03-02-04, 10:23 AM I've actually described some rather brutal torture IMC - it gives the PCs an idea of just how evil the BBEG is. I actually went so far as to give the torturers a hammer that did vile damage, along with a Vile Weapon ring, and Vile Martial Strike. The hammer only did a d3 of bludgeoning damage, but added to that was another 3 points of vile damage.
It started with the victim's feet being crushed so they wouldn't be able to run away - and you may use your own imagination from there. Truthfully, if my description of the torture and the scene the rescuers walked in on were to be published, there would likely have to be a "mature material" label on it - because of very graphic descriptions of physical torture.
I do believe the players were a little horrified by what was described, but, as I said, it let them know how cruel the BBEG is.
If anybody really wants the description, PM or email me and I'll try to dig up the file and send it to you.
Revelation
03-02-04, 12:30 PM I agree with twisted puppy, for evil to stand out and for you to notice the BBEG you need some EVIL acts. I would hate to lose a character to a bland, you are tortured to death, roll up your next character for your revenge, line.

Physical descriptions can shock, so if your party doesn't like them do something psychological, I gave one party member (NG) a case where he was trying to free 20 hostages, as a result of negotiations they got them all back, providing he would pick one out to be killed so 19 could go free, and was then given one minute, no further discussion, no self sacrifise, no chance of combat success, and not picking would get them all killed. That PC bears a grudge against that NPC to this day four years on! (he finally chose the oldest guy on the basis he had least to lose!)
Fixxxer
03-02-04, 02:51 PM To play devil's advocate for a moment, remember that torture doesn't always have to be a bloody, disgusting process. Indifference can sometimes be the best form of torture.

For instance, in the film "Hart's War", a German inquisitor simply kept his charge in a cold room with a stone floor in the winter after removing his shoes and clothes. Every once in a while, he would come back in and politely try to get the information he wanted, stating that the pain could all end and that the charge would get his shoes and clothes back and be placed in a warm cell before frostbite crippled him for life.

The real clencher is that the inquisitor remained polite during the entire (mostly) operation. He seemed friendly, almost like he didn't like what was being done and only wanted to help the poor guy get through it ok.

To sum up, it's possible to run horrifyingly cruel torture scenes without getting disgusting or even bloody with them.
bitnine
03-02-04, 03:16 PM Well, this has been discussed a couple of times over on the mature boards, and I stick by my statement that it's a good thing to discuss player's comfort zones and boundries before a game. Determining what your players are comfortable with, and what they may be seriously uncomfortable with is something that I consider to be a part of running a mature game.

I once got what I consider a great compliment of reaction; I made a player visibly nervous OOC about what might happen to his character. Though, what I consider to be important (if not just polite), I did check to make sure that he was cool with it.

That being said, personally, I'm not a giant fan of graphic descriptions. Personally, I like evoking responses and emotions from things implied and more artful descriptions. I seem to be able to do such effectively, so that's all good for me.

Sure, evil characters do very horrific and brutal things within a given world that I run. I don't often stop them from doing such, but that doesn't mean that I have to be explicit - certainly, that's only one way to convey the depths of horror and depravity that a given foe might dwell within.

For example, my players in an upcoming game might stumble across a sacrificial temple of Gruumsh containing a torture room. Rather than describing such graphicly in ways that would likely violate the CoC, I might say something more along the lines of:

'Still strapped to the metal table is the corpse of an elf, her body broken and her face frozen in a desperate plea that was never answered. On a smaller table beside her lie the bloodstained impliments and a leather journal. Within the journal in an orcish scrawl are meticulous, almost joyous details of what was done here to this victim and dozens like her.'

That is, if I felt a need to accentuate the fact that they were likely not humanitarians within said temple.

Anyways, the main caveat I'd give you is that you probably have been sure that your players were expecting to be in a mature game, and you might want to take a moment to discuss those comfort levels.
Tevish Szat
03-02-04, 07:21 PM If you are about to go into a VERY graphic scene of description, tell them to tell you to stop if its too much. if someone really feels uncomfortable, fade to black. set this down as standard procedure.

Anyone else notice that both the Code of Conduct and Call of Ctulhu are commonly reffered to as CoC? coincidence? I THINK NOT!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Misyrr 03-01-04, 10:13 PM	I run regular games on Sunday set in the Forgotten Realms. This last Sunday the PCs encountered some rather sadistic Banites/Zhentarim secretly operating in Silverymoon. The PCs (after some not so lucky moments) ended up in the cells of these Banites, and more importantly into the hands of their torturer. After they learned that the party was not in fact allied to the Harpers (zone of truth), the fellow in charge decided that the party had to be done away with, so as to not have them living to report what they'd learned. I then went into much detail about the halfling sorcerer PC being carried away, only moments after the druid was returned with several severed fingers. He was then tortured to death. I didn't realize how much detail I had gone into until I asked people for feedback today... The halflings torture is what stuck with them. They all said it was a bit much, that is was sickening to listen to... I don't know if I should be ashamed because of this or happy that I actually managed to get such an emotional response. One thing is for sure, the PCs will be extra pleased when they find one day that they are facing their long ago torturer, and this time they've got weapons and magic of their own to hurl. What do you think?
Hyperion 03-01-04, 10:24 PM	Well I gotta say that I probably wouldn't have been offended. I once had a PC captured by Bainanite monks and while he was paralysed the went to work on defiling him sexually. My PC's were shocked, but it made an impact on them. Recently I told that to one of my DMs and he said that if I tried that in a game he was playing in he'd leave. You just have to know your audience, and there's always that standard of violence and gore being ok as long as no one swears or gets naked. Stupid FCC. Hyperion
Misyrr 03-01-04, 10:33 PM	There was nothing sexual about this torture scene, the halfing was dismembered and then fed his ears, several teeth were ripped from his mouth, his eye was put out, and his hand was slowly sawed off. He died of shock before they could do any more. There was a "Fade to Black" scene though, where the 16 year old female human bard was taken away. That was sexual, though I did not go into detail (I checked with the PC before doing this, there are plans for the child, and he was not overly upset with what happened to his PC).
OmiKapSi 03-01-04, 10:39 PM	I agree to some extent about people having double standards when it comes to what upsets them. That said, I often find it useful to discuss the 'rating' of game that players will be cofortable with, using standard movie ratings (http://www.filmratings.com/guide.htm). Most players I find are interested in PG-13 equivalents. I tend to run these, with the occasional R moment for shock value. I find that as long as these R bits are few and far between, they have plenty of impact. As long as your players are over 13, I don't see anything ethically wrong with what you did. You might want to ease up next time though. Or give a bit of warning that those with delicate sensibilities should leave the room for a bit. Also keep in mind that character knowledge could be significant. If a character wanted to not know what was happening, they might be able to close their eyes and plug their ears.
VirgilCaine 03-01-04, 10:40 PM	I would have asked about their limits beforehand or even before you started the game. The description of the halfling was over the line for me. I would have simply asked, okay, they torture us to death, what kind of new PC do we make to get rrevenge?
MattMart 03-01-04, 10:43 PM	well...evil is evil...and evil isnt nice...and nothing is more motivating than a nice graphic scene....sometimes the only way to get shocked characters is to shock the players....fear and shock are the hardest things for characters to role play...sometimes....its the only way...
Korhal IV 03-01-04, 10:46 PM	This is a classic "Oops" scene. Just keep it in mind and tell people you'll never do it again. Other than that, not much else you can or should do.
Misyrr 03-01-04, 10:48 PM	Originally posted by VirgilCaine I would have asked about their limits beforehand or even before you started the game. The description of the halfling was over the line for me. I would have simply asked, okay, they torture us to death, what kind of new PC do we make to get rrevenge? Well, such things have come up before (very rarely) and nobody seemed upset then. I guess this time I just described the scene in such a way that it was actually sickening for the players to hear. Along with the moaning about this I got plenty of responses about how PCs (and players) would very much be interested in a bit o' revenge.
NestroEmichae 03-01-04, 10:53 PM	Sick horrible mean twisted You called? To be honest, almost all of my players are CoC vets. If they are shocked by anything less than graphic by now, then I haven't been doing my job right. I don't think you went too far at all. It's good to occasionally sicken the players. It reminds them exactly what they are fighting against. Those with lesser sensibilities should say something when you begin.
Phist 03-01-04, 11:03 PM	I usually go into fairly graphic depictions of deaths (enemies or PCs) like "your sword finds a weak spot in his armor and slides in. He looks down at the weapon in his chest as the life fades from his eyes." Don't make me go into my descriptions of crits.:smirk:
Fixxxer 03-02-04, 01:47 AM	Well, knowing that you've run similar scenes before without complain from your players, I'd say that it's probably a good thing that your description touched them. It just makes the revenge scene all the sweeter.
Twisted Puppy 03-02-04, 10:23 AM	I've actually described some rather brutal torture IMC - it gives the PCs an idea of just how evil the BBEG is. I actually went so far as to give the torturers a hammer that did vile damage, along with a Vile Weapon ring, and Vile Martial Strike. The hammer only did a d3 of bludgeoning damage, but added to that was another 3 points of vile damage. It started with the victim's feet being crushed so they wouldn't be able to run away - and you may use your own imagination from there. Truthfully, if my description of the torture and the scene the rescuers walked in on were to be published, there would likely have to be a "mature material" label on it - because of very graphic descriptions of physical torture. I do believe the players were a little horrified by what was described, but, as I said, it let them know how cruel the BBEG is. If anybody really wants the description, PM or email me and I'll try to dig up the file and send it to you.
Revelation 03-02-04, 12:30 PM	I agree with twisted puppy, for evil to stand out and for you to notice the BBEG you need some EVIL acts. I would hate to lose a character to a bland, you are tortured to death, roll up your next character for your revenge, line. Physical descriptions can shock, so if your party doesn't like them do something psychological, I gave one party member (NG) a case where he was trying to free 20 hostages, as a result of negotiations they got them all back, providing he would pick one out to be killed so 19 could go free, and was then given one minute, no further discussion, no self sacrifise, no chance of combat success, and not picking would get them all killed. That PC bears a grudge against that NPC to this day four years on! (he finally chose the oldest guy on the basis he had least to lose!)
Fixxxer 03-02-04, 02:51 PM	To play devil's advocate for a moment, remember that torture doesn't always have to be a bloody, disgusting process. Indifference can sometimes be the best form of torture. For instance, in the film "Hart's War", a German inquisitor simply kept his charge in a cold room with a stone floor in the winter after removing his shoes and clothes. Every once in a while, he would come back in and politely try to get the information he wanted, stating that the pain could all end and that the charge would get his shoes and clothes back and be placed in a warm cell before frostbite crippled him for life. The real clencher is that the inquisitor remained polite during the entire (mostly) operation. He seemed friendly, almost like he didn't like what was being done and only wanted to help the poor guy get through it ok. To sum up, it's possible to run horrifyingly cruel torture scenes without getting disgusting or even bloody with them.
bitnine 03-02-04, 03:16 PM	Well, this has been discussed a couple of times over on the mature boards, and I stick by my statement that it's a good thing to discuss player's comfort zones and boundries before a game. Determining what your players are comfortable with, and what they may be seriously uncomfortable with is something that I consider to be a part of running a mature game. I once got what I consider a great compliment of reaction; I made a player visibly nervous OOC about what might happen to his character. Though, what I consider to be important (if not just polite), I did check to make sure that he was cool with it. That being said, personally, I'm not a giant fan of graphic descriptions. Personally, I like evoking responses and emotions from things implied and more artful descriptions. I seem to be able to do such effectively, so that's all good for me. Sure, evil characters do very horrific and brutal things within a given world that I run. I don't often stop them from doing such, but that doesn't mean that I have to be explicit - certainly, that's only one way to convey the depths of horror and depravity that a given foe might dwell within. For example, my players in an upcoming game might stumble across a sacrificial temple of Gruumsh containing a torture room. Rather than describing such graphicly in ways that would likely violate the CoC, I might say something more along the lines of: 'Still strapped to the metal table is the corpse of an elf, her body broken and her face frozen in a desperate plea that was never answered. On a smaller table beside her lie the bloodstained impliments and a leather journal. Within the journal in an orcish scrawl are meticulous, almost joyous details of what was done here to this victim and dozens like her.' That is, if I felt a need to accentuate the fact that they were likely not humanitarians within said temple. Anyways, the main caveat I'd give you is that you probably have been sure that your players were expecting to be in a mature game, and you might want to take a moment to discuss those comfort levels.
Tevish Szat 03-02-04, 07:21 PM	If you are about to go into a VERY graphic scene of description, tell them to tell you to stop if its too much. if someone really feels uncomfortable, fade to black. set this down as standard procedure. Anyone else notice that both the Code of Conduct and Call of Ctulhu are commonly reffered to as CoC? coincidence? I THINK NOT!