Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DougC 09-24-04, 01:07 PM	Greetings, everyone. :) Hopefully there are some math and physics majors out there who will be willing to help me out on this. I posted this here way back before the Boards move and have, unfortunately, lost all of my notes on the blasted thing. The idea that I have/had is a 60 ft. spherical, iron dungeon room delicately balanced at the top of a steep decline (I was thinking a 45 degree angle). The door leading into the room is set at the midpoint of the sphere, accessible through a normal dungeon corridor. Directly across from the entrance door is an identical door. Leading across the room, from door to door is a narrow, 5 inch wide beam, requiring a Balance Check (DC 15) to walk across. The walls of this room would have holes in them, spaced at regular intervals, giving an appearance similar to that of a golf ball if viewed from the outside. Once the PCs enter the room, the door would shut and lock behind them. As soon as the majority of the party's weight is over the halfway point, on the side of the exit door, the sphere would tilt off of its perch and begin to roll down the hill, toward a large body of water (ocean, most likely). Once in the ocean, the sphere would then begin to fill with water and sink. So, my questions are: 1) What angle and length should the hill that the sphere is to roll down logically be for it to take at least 10 rounds to hit the water? 2) If the "murder holes" are each 2 inches in diameter and spaced evenly, 8 inches apart, how fast will the water pour into the room through the holes (gallons/round)? 3) Once the fill rate is established, how many rounds will it take for the sphere to fill completely, i.e. sink below the surface? (How many gallons could such a sphere hold?) 4) If the sphere enters the ocean at a point where the ocean floor is 300 ft. below the surface, how long will it take the sphere to hit bottom? 5) What if the sphere were to hit bottom at a point where the ocean floor is not level so that once it hits bottom, it begins to roll again? (This, actually, was a spontaneous random thought. :devil: ) 6) Are there any questions that I didn't think to ask that should be considered? Any and all help will be greatly appreciated. :) The Complete Sphere of Doom (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4490205&postcount=35) :D
reifidom 09-24-04, 01:28 PM	I've been working on things very much like this in class. I don't have the time just now, but give me a half hour and I'll edit this with an approximation.
Stuntman 09-24-04, 01:34 PM	Don't think about the correct physics and engineering. Such details are not necessary. 1. Just describe the room as rolling down a hill towards the water. What is important is that it takes 10 rounds to hit the water. If a PC asks how long before it hits the water, make him make an intelligence check and if he makes it, tell him that it will probably take 1 minute. In this case, I don't think the PC cares how far it travels, but they care about how much time they have before the sphere hits the water. 2 and 3. Decide for yourself how much time you want it to take for the sphere to fill. If you want to give the players 3 minutes, just describe the water rushing in and in 1.5 minutes, say that it is half filled. If the PC's are in this trap, they could care less about the flow rate. No one is going to challenge you on this. They will likely try to escape and not have time to worry about fill rate. 4. Again, decide for yourself how much time you want for the sphere to take before it hits bottom. 5. If you decide that the bottom is not level, then the sphere will start rolling once it hits bottom. Likely it will roll more slowly under water. Just describe it as rolling again, but at a slower rate. Maybe something 1/4 the speed as in air due to the viscosity of the water would suffice. That sounds reasonable and I doubt anyone will challenge your physics. Decide what is important for the players to know. If they are trapped in a room that is filling with water, they could care less how many gallons per minute is coming in. THey want to know how much time before it completely fills, so you know how much time you have to escape or do something. For example, if it takes 5 rounds, then it would probably be too slow to take 20 on an open lock check to escape. The character would have to just roll his check and hope for a high enough roll before drowning. Time is the most important factor in most situations. I usually describe things in terms of time like how much time it takes to travel from A to B. I don't worry about exact distances and the velocity with regard to riding a horse vs. walking. I just say that you will get there in 3 days by foot or less than a day by horse. It doesn't matter if this is not entirely accurate. It is good enough that it shows that it is faster by horse than on foot. You should take the same approach with such a trap. Time is the important factor. When you put such a trap in the game, what is important is how much time the party has to escape. Whether it is 100 gallons per minute or 50 gallons per minute flowing in is not important. What is important is that the party has X rounds or minutes before it completely fills. What is important is it takes 10 rounds before it hits the water. If someone specifically asks how far, just guess some reasonable distance like 200 ft. and say the slope is such that it takes 10 rounds to cover that distance. If it appears reasonable to you, it will probably appear reasonable to the players. If by some remote chance you have some physics expert who can do the calculations in his head, just ask him what the slope is for it to take a sphere 10 rounds to reach 200 ft. and say that is the slope. In any case, the party has 10 rounds before it hits the water. Hope this helps.
One Wolf 09-24-04, 01:34 PM	I'm sure your players appreciate the effort you go through to make your trap "physically" credible. However, why not just make it up. As long as it is seemingly logical, the size of the room and/or the rate of water flow may be estimated by you. The bigger problem in my mind is a game mechanic for doing anything while the room is rolling. Reflex saves for actions? Dex check? I don't know. The only thing that could cause a problem is if one (oe more) of your players is a physics major AND is the type of person who likes to point out minor flaws in the "reality" of the gaming experience. Just a suggestion. Sometimes we all (including myself) take the realism a bit too seriously in this fantasy game. :) -One Wolf P.S. Cool trap. I may use it, if you don't mind.
crazysamaritan 09-24-04, 01:46 PM	Don't think about the correct physics and engineering. Such details are not necessary. I'll back him and one wolf up on this. The only time such a thing is relevent is when the players can affect it. Also note: the room will fill in an exponential fashion, rather than a geometric if you go by RW physics. Yet another reason why I claim DnD uses different physics than RW. As to rolling in the water, I think there is something about that in the Combat section of PHB, or I'm just making it up, I can never tell...
DougC 09-24-04, 02:00 PM	Thanks for the replies, guys. :D Don't think about the correct physics and engineering. Such details are not necessary. One of the "problems" I have with these things is that I tend to think as if I'm writing them to be published (though I doubt they ever will), I want them to be logical to me so that, should it arise in game, it will be logical to my players. Although, I do see your points. Still, I'd like to know just for curiosity's sake. :) P.S. Cool trap. I may use it, if you don't mind. Thanks. :D Of course I don't mind if you use it, go right ahead. I'm always flattered when someone likes one of my ideas enough to want to use it. Have fun! :D I've been working on things very much like this in class. I don't have the time just now, but give me a half hour and I'll edit this with an approximation. According to everyone else here, this isn't necessary, apparently, but if you still want to post it, I'd appreciate it. :) Again, thanks for the replies. :D
Stuntman 09-24-04, 02:12 PM	One of the "problems" I have with these things is that I tend to think as if I'm writing them to be published (though I doubt they ever will), I want them to be logical to me so that, should it arise in game, it will be logical to my players. Back in the 80's there was a TV show called, "The A-Team." The stuff they did in that show was rediculously unrealistic and impossible in real life, yet it was hugely popular and won a few awards as well, I believe. They built a flying vehicle using several garbage bags and a vacuum cleaner to fly over a wall and escape from some prison. :rolleyes: Yeah, right. If they don't care about proper physics and engineering in a hit TV show, I doubt that you need to worry about it in your game. In fact, the trap in your D&D game is more realisic than most of the stuff they do in The A-Team.
crazysamaritan 09-24-04, 02:37 PM	One of the "problems" I have with these things is that I tend to think as if I'm writing them to be published (though I doubt they ever will), I want them to be logical to me so that, should it arise in game, it will be logical to my players. Logical how? If you want to go by intuitive logical (which it somewhat sounds like) I can make stuff up that will make sense. On the other hand, if you want physics logical, I can make stuff up that will be too confusing for you to tell I'm lying through my teeth when I say, "This is how it works." Both work in most situations.
DougC 09-24-04, 05:43 PM	Back in the 80's there was a TV show called, "The A-Team." The stuff they did in that show was rediculously unrealistic and impossible in real life, yet it was hugely popular and won a few awards as well, I believe. They built a flying vehicle using several garbage bags and a vacuum cleaner to fly over a wall and escape from some prison. :rolleyes: Yeah, right. If they don't care about proper physics and engineering in a hit TV show, I doubt that you need to worry about it in your game. In fact, the trap in your D&D game is more realisic than most of the stuff they do in The A-Team. Yeah, I can't believe I actually used to watch that show on a regular basis. "I love it when a plan comes together," was a popular saying for a while. I stopped watching a few episodes into the second season because it was a bit too "formulaic." I mean, when I could say, "A jeep will flip right...now," and the jeep flipped right then every single episode (not to mention the insane quantity of bullets that were fired and no one was ever hit by one), sheesh! :rolleyes: Believe me, I completely understand your point and totally agree with it. However, it would still be nice to know. :) Anyway... The bigger problem in my mind is a game mechanic for doing anything while the room is rolling. Reflex saves for actions? Dex check? I don't know. I was having some difficulty with this also, but I was thinking, perhaps a Reflex Save (DC 15) to grab ahold of the beam and hang on when the sphere begins rolling initially. STR Checks (DC 15+1/round) to maintain a hold on the beam until it hits the water. DEX Checks (15+1/round) to try to grab ahold of the beam (for anyone who didn't manage to grab it in round one), stand up, move, etc. as the sphere is rolling, beginning in the second round of its movement. The locked iron doors would have an Open Lock DC dependant on the party level and would be trapped with a poison needle trap, poison and DC dependant on the DM. (Although, the water, once in the sphere, may negate the poison. I don't remember if there are any specific rules on this and I don't have access to a DMG at the moment.) Now, what would be the chances of the party somehow anchoring the sphere by sticking something through the holes? Would this be dependant on the momentum of the sphere? I can understand ignoring the physics, RW, D&D, or A-Team, applied to its rolling and sinking, but I am not going to allow the party to stop this 60 ft. iron sphere from rolling down any hill by sticking a normal dagger, iron spike, or arrow through one of the holes. Or, to put it another way, is there any mid-level item that might possibly stop the sphere by sticking it through one of the holes and anchoring it (assuming they make their DEX Check to do so)? I will check the "Magic Items" section of the SRD, but if anyone knows of anythng that's not in there, please clue me in. I ask because I definitely want to make sure that the party has multiple ways of surviving this thing. Whether they realize it or not is a completely different matter. ;) And thank you all for your replies so far. :) You have shown me the error of my ways. ;) :D
Vharuck 09-24-04, 06:12 PM	I don't know, if that's a 60' sphere of iron, chances are nothing is stopping that bad boy. Plus, even if you had unbreakable metal bars on you, no matter what you shove in the ground, you'll do nothing more than plow a hill. Dirt isn't really that stable.
DougC 09-24-04, 06:22 PM	I don't know, if that's a 60' sphere of iron, chances are nothing is stopping that bad boy. Plus, even if you had unbreakable metal bars on you, no matter what you shove in the ground, you'll do nothing more than plow a hill. Dirt isn't really that stable. Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. However, I tend to run high magic campaigns and in such, one never can tell. :)
Stuntman 09-24-04, 06:57 PM	(not to mention the insane quantity of bullets that were fired and no one was ever hit by one), sheesh! :rolleyes: My favourite is where they use garbage cans as turrets on their vehicles and bullets bounce off of them.:rolleyes: But, I loved the show and still catch the reruns now and again. I was having some difficulty with this also, but I was thinking, perhaps a Reflex Save (DC 15) to grab ahold of the beam and hang on when the sphere begins rolling initially. STR Checks (DC 15+1/round) to maintain a hold on the beam until it hits the water. DEX Checks (15+1/round) to try to grab ahold of the beam (for anyone who didn't manage to grab it in round one), stand up, move, etc. as the sphere is rolling, beginning in the second round of its movement. The locked iron doors would have an Open Lock DC dependant on the party level and would be trapped with a poison needle trap, poison and DC dependant on the DM. (Although, the water, once in the sphere, may negate the poison. I don't remember if there are any specific rules on this and I don't have access to a DMG at the moment.) I'd use a balance check to prevent falling off the beam and a climb check to hang on. There are rules for holding your breath and drowning. I just can't remember where. A swim check is in order to maneuver if the water starts to fill. You may want to give a bonus to the save vs. poison if it is under water like +4. Now, what would be the chances of the party somehow anchoring the sphere by sticking something through the holes? ... Or, to put it another way, is there any mid-level item that might possibly stop the sphere by sticking it through one of the holes and anchoring it (assuming they make their DEX Check to do so)? I think there are immovable rods that are used as rungs of a ladder. That's the only thing I can think of. Disintegrate can get rid of the door. Move Earth may be able to manipulate the slope and cause the sphere to be stuck in a trench. Wall of Stone may be able to stop it if you cast it quickly before the sphere picks up too much momentum. Transmute Rock to Mud may work to cause the sphere to sink into the ground.
DougC 09-24-04, 07:13 PM	There are rules for holding your breath and drowning. I just can't remember where. I believe it's in the DMG. I think there are immovable rods that are used as rungs of a ladder. That's the only thing I can think of. Disintegrate can get rid of the door. Move Earth may be able to manipulate the slope and cause the sphere to be stuck in a trench. Wall of Stone may be able to stop it if you cast it quickly before the sphere picks up too much momentum. Transmute Rock to Mud may work to cause the sphere to sink into the ground. Thanks. I don't know about the immovable rods, but the PCs will definitely have access to at least a couple of the spells you mention. :) P.S. Did you ever watch The Fall Guy? ;) :D
FrostyObsitnic 09-24-04, 08:59 PM	I think there are immovable rods that are used as rungs of a ladder. That's the only thing I can think of. Immovable rods only require a strength check DC 25 to move. I doubt it would stop the ball once it picked up a reasonable amount of speed.
Stuntman 09-24-04, 10:40 PM	P.S. Did you ever watch The Fall Guy? ;) :D "Well, I'm not the kind to kiss and tell..." ;)
Loren Pechtel 09-24-04, 11:20 PM	I'll agree with the general opinion that you don't need to work out the physics. You didn't provide enough information anyway--the mass distribution of the sphere will have some effect. (Remember, it's rolling. It's moment of inertia will thus affect how fast it will accelerate. An object rolling down a ramp will accelerate differently than the same object sliding down the same ramp after some oil was added.) I would howl at a DC15 balance check for a 5" beam. It's not that hard to walk something like that. That's no more than DC10. Note, also, that the sphere will sink before it's full of water.
crazysamaritan 09-25-04, 12:44 AM	Immovable rods only require a strength check DC 25 to move. I doubt it would stop the ball once it picked up a reasonable amount of speed. Assuming the players manage to figure out the problem before crossing, I'd suggest a DC 25 strength check to keep it in one place. The players weight should be negligable. If, however, they don't think to do that (and like as not, they won't) then it's a +5 to the DC each round, until it stops rolling. DC10 is probably fine, a 5" board is no worse than a stroll on the edge of the sidewalk. Put in modifyers for any character with a stated fear of hights, perhaps... :devil: +2 for crawling on hands/knees, +4 for crawling prone. When the ball starts rolling, first round, Rfx sounds good, climb check to hold on, a second balance check if they start falling off. If they miss both the climb and dex check, take falling damage for 20', so 2d6. *yeowch*, maybe only ten feet? Best solution? Some variation of fly. Wind walk, and ghostform, and perhaps even waterwalk are all ideas.
DougC 09-25-04, 01:37 AM	"Well, I'm not the kind to kiss and tell..." "...But I've been seen with Farah...." :D You didn't provide enough information anyway--the mass distribution of the sphere will have some effect. (Remember, it's rolling. It's moment of inertia will thus affect how fast it will accelerate. An object rolling down a ramp will accelerate differently than the same object sliding down the same ramp after some oil was added.) I, obviously, know nothing of RW physics, whiich is why I asked this question in the first place. That point, however, has become moot, eh? ;) I would howl at a DC15 balance check for a 5" beam. It's not that hard to walk something like that. That's no more than DC10. So my balance isn't what it used to be. I used to be able to walk on railroad track rails for hours with ease, but now I have difficulty walking on a 5" wide surface. Instead of changing the DC, I think I'll change the beam to 2". Thanks for pointing that out before my players got a chance to. :D Thanks for the replies guys, I've some extra stuff that I've decided to add after speaking with a friend last night. I'll post it later, when I have more time (and am somewhat more conscious) to see what you think. :D
BlueLion 09-25-04, 06:02 AM	Well, I'm a bit late, but being an aspiring physicist I decided to try my hand at this dilemma. I am aware that this is probably quite useless information, but I solved the puzzle purely for the sake of it - alas, that is the fate of the physicist. Well, here goes: 1) Since the length depends on the angle, you could have a long, steep slope or a short, low slope. I took the angle as 45 degrees, and the length of the slope works out to be about 2 miles. (I assumed a very rough value for the friction, and I calculated the sphere's mass assuming that it is 2 inches thick, made of pure iron and contains four adult human PC's.) 2) Assuming (and this is a BIG assumption) that the sphere is immediately immersed, the influx of water is about 3513 gallons per round. 3) The capacity of the sphere, including the little spaces in each hole, sums to around 706963 gallons, which should fill up in 20 minutes. (yes, the sphere IS that big). Remember that the sphere is still filling up even when it is submerged. 4) 300ft deep is not really that deep - only five times the sphere's height. Thus, given the sphere's enormous weight (I accounted for four humans weighing 480 pounds each inside the sphere) it should reach the bottom in just over one round. Question 5 is way too complicated, especially given the number of assumptions I already have made. From these answers, it would appear that the events happen like this: first, the sphere rolls at increasing speed down the incline, travelling the two-mile length of the slope in just one minute before plunging deep into the ocean. After one round it hits the bottom, and the water spurting through all the holes fills it up in 20 minutes. Meanwhile, the four PC's inside are panicking and sloshing around while the air steadily bubbles out through the holes. Great trap! Maybe too effective unless someone has a warp iron or rust iron spell which they can cast under those conditions. Well, there you have it. Hope you found that as amusing as I did.
Sucineri 09-25-04, 06:48 AM	I just can't get passed the part with it taking 20 minutes to fill with water, lol. It's awesome that you figured all this stuff out! :) I also hope you figured the PCs weight from their weight and equipment..because if there are 4 adult human characters who are 480 lbs each..that is just freakish! :P
darkwave 09-25-04, 11:49 AM	LOL - I hope you mean it sinks after it has started to fill (from your example, say about ~3-4 feet deep water inside) - buoyancy. :D Of course, once it IS over that boundary, it should sink pretty fast... :weep: :D
DougC 09-25-04, 01:00 PM	Thank you, BlueLion for going through the trouble to figure all of this out even though others have made it quite clear that it is rather unnecessary to do so. :D However, considering what I've decided to do with the trap, knowing the length and angle of the hill has, in fact, become necessary. Thus, Sucineri is more accurate than he realized in stating that it is awesome that you figured all of this stuff out. Indeed, it is awsome. :) I also hope you figured the PCs weight from their weight and equipment..because if there are 4 adult human characters who are 480 lbs each..that is just freakish! :p I have to agree with Sucineri on this one also. ;) The Sphere Trap (CR 7*): Role: To protect something of grave importance (an uber-powerful artifact, for example). Background: Many moons ago, a very powerful artifact of unknown origin was discovered. This artifact was found to have the potential to destroy worlds. Upon realizing this, The Good Wizard Thamion (Elf Wizard 18) began a project to keep the artifact a secret from the world. He had built an extensive vault designed to hide and protect the artifact from any who would seek it out, if knowledge of it were ever to get out in any way. Thamion's vault is filled with tricks and traps designed to discourage any who enter it from completing their goals of obtaining the artifact. Knowledge of the artifact's existence, even the vault that it lies buried in, has been kept secret from all but the gods. Until now. (The Sphere Trap is one of the last traps to be encountered in Thamion's vault.) Usage: The highest ranking cleric of the church of any LG deity has been contacted by her god with disturbing news. The world is in imminent danger of being destroyed by some random natural occurance (a giant asteroid hurtling through space, for example). The artifact is the only thing that can save their world. Knowing that the BBEG has been scrying on her, the cleric seeks to hire an adventuring party to find the item for her. Once the PCs are in her employ, the cleric will give them only the barest minimum of information about the artifact and the vault that it lies in it (no more than what information is under "Background" above), perhaps giving even that information in code or riddle. Of course, she only knows of the vault and the artifact inside, information given to her by her god, she does not know any details of what lies inside the vault (monsters, traps, etcetera). Description/Stats: The Sphere Trap is a 60 ft. spherical room made of 2 in. thick iron, pocked with 2 in. diameter holes set precisely 8 inches apart from one another. It is delicately balanced on the edge, at the top of a 45 degree slope, the length of which is 2 miles. The PCs enter the room through a door set in the center of it's "wall." Strecthing across the center of this otherwise hollow room is a long, 2 in. wide/thick iron beam with Elven Runes etched into it on all sides. Closer inspection of the beam will reveal that it has six seperate blocks set around a central beam, each block with Elven Runes etched in it. Around the center of the room, also are etched Elven Runes. Elven Runes can be found here. (http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/vortexshadow/elfrunes.html) To walk across the beam requires a Balance Check (DC 15). Any character falling off of the beam must make a Reflex Save (DC 10) to grab ahold of it or plunge to the floor below for 3d6 damage. Once over half of the party's weight is across the center of the beam, the sphere will roll off of its perch and begin its descent toward the ocean below. As the sphere begins to roll, the entrance door slams shut and locks. It will take the sphere 10 rounds (one minute) to roll down the hill, into the ocean. Once it begins to roll, any character still standing on the beam must succeed at a Reflex Save (DC 15) to grab ahold of the beam or plunge to the floor below for 3d6 damage. Any character who has fallen and is trying to grab ahold of the beam as the sphere rolls must succeed at a Dex Check (DC 15+1/round) to do so. Any character who is holding on the the beam as the sphere is rolling must make a Strength Check (DC 15+1/round) to maintain a grip on it. Once in the water, the sphere will sink to the ocean floor (300 ft. below) in one round. Water begins to pour into the sphere through the holes at a rate of about 3,513 gallons per round. It will take 200 rounds (20 minutes) for the sphere to completely fill with water. This area of ocean is inhabited by electric eels and/or sharks. Some of the electric eels would be small enough to enter the sphere through the holes. Both doors are locked and trapped with poison needle traps. The door the PCs entered from has an Open Lock DC of 15 and the door opposite it has an Open Lock DC of 20. The Search DC for the poison needle traps are DC 20, the attack bonus +10. Disable Device DC 20 for both traps. The needles are coated with Giant Wasp Poison (Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based). The Elven Runes spell out this message: "To stop or control, or hinder waterflow, one must have done this." When the blocks on the center beam are arranged in a manner in which they spell out, "One must have built a dam," the holes in the sphere will close, stopping the flow of water into the sphere. Now, the door opposite the one the PCs entered the room through, when in place in the vault, led into the corridor that leads to the chamber which contains the arifact that the PCs are after. This means that once the PCs have escaped the sphere and swam back to the surface, they must then trek the two miles back up the hill to the now empty chamber the sphere rolled out of, climb 30 ft. up a sheer, smooth rock wall and re-enter the vault on the side where their destination lie. Getting from that point to their destination, however, can be as easy or as difficult as the DM wishes to make it. The hill can be populated with whatever creatures the DM sees fit, making the party's two mile trek back to the vault as difficult as the DM wishes it to be. *The CR can be adjusted up or down by changing the poison type that the needles are coated with. See "Traps" in the DMG or the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35). A very special thank you to BlueLion for taking the time and trouble to figure out the physics behind the Sphere Trap (especially given the number of assumptions that he had to make) and to MinusInnocence for giving me the beam combination idea and the idea to put electric eels and sharks in the water. And to Evandar_TAybara for supplying me with the name of the trap. :D And, as always, have fun! :D
BlueLion 09-25-04, 10:10 PM	Not only the equipment of the PC's, but I also forgot to account for the weight of the iron beam, and the fact that the iron doors in the sphere wouldn't have holes in them. Well, due to the massive weight of the sphere on its own, I don't think that this extra weight would make a huge difference, especially since most of my results are rounded off. Also, you're quite right - the sphere would take some time to sink under the surface, during which it would start filling. However, I couldn't work this into the calculations because I'd have to work out how many holes were exposed to the water at any time during the sinking - and that was just beyond my skills. Also, I know nothing about buoyancy. :D However, given the overall weight of the sphere and the high speed of its landing in the water, I don't think it would take too long to go under so it shouldn't make a huge difference to the results. Thanks for the positive feedback. I love this game.
DougC 09-25-04, 11:20 PM	Thanks for the positive feedback. You're welcome. And thank you for all your trouble. :D It was pointed out to me that I forgot to calculate the CR of this trap. In order to do so, I had to add some things that I originally thought that I would leave up to each individual DM wishing to use it. Using the "Traps" section of the SRD, I got the result of CR 14. If this is innacurate, please let me know and tell me what the appropriate CR would be. Thanks. :D Last Edit: This is why I should never do things in a rush. According to the SRD the use of liquid in a trap adds +5 to the CR of a trap, therefore, according to my calculations, the CR shoudl be 14. Again, please let me know if I am wrong on this. :)
crazysamaritan 09-26-04, 01:07 AM	One small problem, that will allow your players to pass with a modicum of effort. By this time (level 14) the players are using/starting to use level four spells as utility spells. Amoung the spells there are Air Walk. Which means no balance checks and no tumble into the water. Also, I'm not sure, the sphere weighs over 3,200lbs, yes?
DougC 09-26-04, 05:25 AM	One small problem, that will allow your players to pass with a modicum of effort. By this time (level 14) the players are using/starting to use level four spells as utility spells. Amoung the spells there are Air Walk. Which means no balance checks and no tumble into the water. Also, I'm not sure, the sphere weighs over 3,200lbs, yes? You're right about the spells, and I'm pretty sure you're right about the weight of the sphere. However, I'm not completely sure that I calculated the CR correctly. It might actually be lower. In any case, I have an idea that may get around that. After hours of hiking and climbing over hills and cliffs, then two hours of board games, and all on less than four hours of sleep, I'll have to do my research when I wake up later today, but I'll figure something out. I like this trap too much to allow the PCs to circumvent it too easily. :schemes:
crazysamaritan 09-26-04, 02:10 PM	I would suggest a CR of 10-11, because that's the level where the traps will be a challange (DC25 for disable? 25-13= 12 or better, meaning no take10 with rogue ablity, the rest of the DCs are less than that). Also, at level 10-11, access to 5-6 level spells are found, which has a whale in the Summon Nature's Ally spells. The whales (cast outside of the shpere) should be able to keep the sphere aloft, and defend against sharks. Move Earth is also at this level, and could be used to stop the sphere. The big question for those things is, did they prepare them? The SNA is not a big concern, unless they lack a druid. But these will make defeating the trap easier, but not with no effort. Air walk is still a concern, but they won't have as many 4th level spells around. The most likely occurance is they send the rogue across alone. such thinking is decent for thier level, and should be awarded the full CR. the same as if they had figured out the puzzle. My suggestion for lowering the CR of the trap is to use a different poison (I don't like attacking the dex of the rogue anyway.... smart move, but I prefer to keep it as a stand alone trap, not another cog, which everything hinges on) One more thing, page61 for brake door/lock DCs. You might want to deal with the "hit first, open lock later" barbarian.
DougC 09-26-04, 05:48 PM	I believe that I did get my calculatins wrong. The SRD "Traps" states that the CR modifier for Ref Save 15 or less is -1 and 25-29 is +1. I was adding +1 for the Dex Checks that increase to DC 25. Now, by changing the DCs of Search and Disable Device to 20, the modifiers for those become +0. So, I now have an equation that looks like this: Search DC 20 for a CR modifier of +0 Disable Device DC 20 for a CR modifier of +0 Reflex Save DC 15 for a CR modifier of -1 Liquid (Water filling the sphere) for a CR modifier of +5 Poison Needle Trap Attack Bonus +10 for a modifier of +0 Giant Wasp Poison for a CR modifier of +3 For a grand total of CR 7. Of course, if one were to add the Dex Check DC which increases to a total of 25 in place of Ref Checks, that would add another +1 for a total of CR 8. I'm not sure if it should work like this or not, though, since the "Trap CR" section doesn't mention ability checks anywhere. Of course, the total CR of the trap could be modified up or down by changing the DCs and attack bonuses and/or the type of poison used. I believe this to be correct, however, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong. :) One more thing, page61 for brake door/lock DCs. You might want to deal with the "hit first, open lock later" barbarian. Unfortunately, I don't currently have a DMG to reference, so I'm working with only the SRD. This means that I don't have knowledge of any poisons other than those of the "Animal Vermin" type such as Giant Wasp or Small Monstrous Centipede poison. However, I have downloaded the "3.5 Accessory Update Booklets" and will check those to see if I can find anything in there. Of course, each individual DM wishing to use this trap could modify it in any way that they see fit to adjust its CR or whatever, as I've suggested above. Again, thanks for all of the help. :D
Fixxxer 09-26-04, 10:31 PM	Back in the 80's there was a TV show called, "The A-Team." The stuff they did in that show was rediculously unrealistic and impossible in real life, yet it was hugely popular and won a few awards as well, I believe. They built a flying vehicle using several garbage bags and a vacuum cleaner to fly over a wall and escape from some prison. :rolleyes: Yeah, right. If they don't care about proper physics and engineering in a hit TV show, I doubt that you need to worry about it in your game. In fact, the trap in your D&D game is more realisic than most of the stuff they do in The A-Team. I DON'T NEED TO HEAR NONE OF THAT JIBBA-JABBA, HANNIBAL!!! :D Doug, I'm in awe of your creation. :)
crazysamaritan 09-26-04, 11:59 PM	Only a few additional thoughts, about how the players can beat the trap: Stone shape: Make the stone come through the holes, and hold it to the shere securely. Summon Nature's Ally: There is a dinosaur that would likely help in two ways: 1) it could lift the players up the steep slope after they escape from the water. 2) it could hold the shpere in place as they cross the "bridge" to get to the other side. Also, an earth elemental, would they be able to hold it there? How much of the sphere is open to the outside? Is it daytime or nighttime? That's more random, but a question that might be asked. I think CR 7 is much more reasonable. Fits better with the abilites they should have at the same level.
DougC 09-27-04, 01:47 AM	I DON'T NEED TO HEAR NONE OF THAT JIBBA-JABBA, HANNIBAL!!! :D Would you care to make a donation to the "Save the Golf Ball Foundation"? Murdock was my favorite. :D Doug, I'm in awe of your creation. :) Thanks, Fixxxer, you've no idea how much that means to me. :cloud9: :D crazysamaritan, you make some good points. Points that my last group of players would never even have thought of. Maybe when I finally find a new group of players they'll think more like you. :D Something else that hasn't been addressed yet is the possible damage that the PCs could/would sustain from bouncing around inside the sphere as it rolls down the hill (assuming they fail to make their Dex and/or Str Checks to grab or hold on to the center beam). Since the sphere is moving down the hill at the rate of two miles per 10 rounds (or 1 minute), this means that it is moving at 120 miles per hour. So, how much damage would be sustained from bouncing around during the roll? I see it like this: Any PCs falling off of the beam and landing on the floor during the roll would roll up with the "floor." To me, I don't see them falling again until they reach a height of at least 10 ft. This means 1d6 damage, but I think that a Ref Save (DC 20) for half damage would be reasonable, if they fail their Dex Check to grab ahold of the beam. So, at "Average Damage +1/7* points (*Rounded to the nearest multiple of 7 (round up for an average that lies exactly between two numbers)," assuming an average of 3-4 points damage each roll for the 10 rounds it takes the sphere to roll down the hill, that gives us another +4 or +5 to the CR. (40/7=5 (rounded) or 30/7=5 (rounded).) I, personally would go with the +4 to CR, giving the trap a total CR of 11. Of course, there is also the possiblity of any PC that has fallen using the holes in the wall as fingerholds. Considering that I can only get three of my fingers through a 2 inch space, I would thing perhaps a Strength Check (DC 20) would be required to hold on, but they would have to let go before that part of the sphere rolled over the ground, crushing their fingers. Now, I don't want to re-edit the actual trap text until I'm certain that there is nothing else affecting its CR to be considered. I, personally, liked it at CR 7 and would love to find a way to keep it there, but I'm not so sure that will be possible. So, any other suggestions before I finally label it "definitely complete"?
DougC 09-27-04, 10:09 AM	I am in need of some Sooper-Dooper-Xtra-Mega-Uber-Headache medicine. ;) The possibility of the eels and sharks increasing the DC has been brought to my attention. However, for this, since the eels and sharks actually exist outside the trap, they could, technically, not be considered a part of the trap (as I see it, anyway). Now, I'm considering the possibility of having Thamion have placed some sort of spell storing device in the doorway that, when triggered, would cast Antimagic Shield on the party. The only problems that I can foresee with this, however, are: 1) The spell's duration - the lowest possible duration, according to the spell rules as written, is 110 minutes, or an hour and forty minutes. I don't like the idea of depriving the spellcasters of their most valuable resource for that long. Is there any logical way of reducing the duration to say, around two minutes? (Just long enough to get the sphere with the PCs inside into the water.) and 2) This would increase the CR of the trap by +6 (Sor/Wiz spell level), giving it a CR of 17 (without any adjustments being made to poison or DCs). Although, with the ability to cast spells negated, a higher CR really isn't that much of a problem (to me, anyway). Oh, and I forgot to include the damage that could be taken from falling off of the beam in the first place, but I'd think that would only add another +1 to the CR for a total of CR 18 (CR 12 without the Antimagic Field). So, what are your opinions on this? Should I include the stored Antimagic Field or just leave it as written with a CR of 12? :)
crazysamaritan 09-27-04, 04:26 PM	Something else that hasn't been addressed yet is the possible damage that the PCs could/would sustain from bouncing around inside the sphere as it rolls down the hill (assuming they fail to make their Dex and/or Str Checks to grab or hold on to the center beam). Since the sphere is moving down the hill at the rate of two miles per 10 rounds (or 1 minute), this means that it is moving at 120 miles per hour. So, how much damage would be sustained from bouncing around during the roll? Actually, I was adressing that earlier. That's why I said perhaps only 1d6 per round. Asuuming the ball is rolling (that's what you said it was doing) then by the time they fall, the ball has moved forward. Granted, they move a bit forward too, but that's RL physics, too complicated. I was saying (2nd or 3rd post?) that once they miss, they take 2d6 per round, because although the radius is 30', the ball is moving, and they won''t always be falling from the center. Another possibility is: 1)on pole, check to hold on (if succede, go to 1) 2)Fail check for holding on, take 2d6 damage 3)at the start of their next round, Reflex save to grab pole 4) if they succede, go to 1 5)If they fail, take 1d6 points of damage, go to 3 I don't see how the antimagic spell is anything other than "fu, PCs!" Now, you could build anther trap around that spell, but tacking it onto this one is just wrong. Especially if you want to keep it at the reasonable CR 7. With regards to the animals, just say two or three eels come over to see if the PCs are food. If the PCs have taken damage, a small or medium shark comes too. Make the mosters a negligent CR. They are not the purpose of the trap, they are a natural annoyance. It's not like Thamion trained a school of fish to attack the sphere.... One more thought! Tumbling! Give a circumstance modifyer to tumble (smooth, curved surface) of +2 to +6, and allow them to make dex (tumble) checks to negate falling damage! I know there is a DC for negating the first ten feet of damage... (too lazy to check SRD :P) That should leave you with a comfortable CR 9. About thinking... I'm a rules-lawyer, but a creative one... I follow the rules of the DM, not the book. Especially if the DM's rules are easier to abuse :D btw, I didn't even mention thoqqua!
DougC 09-27-04, 08:33 PM	I don't see how the antimagic spell is anything other than "fu, PCs!" I agree, which is why I'm hesitant to use it, especially considering the duration of it, if it were used. Fixxxer has suggested to me, via email, the following: This thing is designed to keep people from getting one of the most dangerous items in the world, so I imagine it was designed to kill those who try to proceed, not just discourage them. Instead of dealing with falling damage and bouncing damage, why not place barbed spikes on the inside of the sphere? In this way, it could be assumed that if you fail the STR check to hold on to the center beam, you take X amount of damage from being jammed onto a spike and you're also stuck to the wall. In this way, you simplify things by not having to roll more damage each round while the sphere is rolling AND you have the benefit of making the trap seem designed to be more deadly, since being stuck to the wall via a spike means that you are probably held immobile while you drown (allowing for a STR check to disengage yourself from the spike, of course). Although he is right, I'm very tempted to just leave it as is, with a CR of 12. Even if one of my players were to take Airwalk as a spell, Clerics can only cast 6th level spells 2+1 times/day and Sorcerers 3 times per day, and Wizards only 2 times per day. The chances of there being a Cleric, a Sorcerer, and a Wizard all in the same party in one of my games is pretty slim (I usually only have three or four players and their favored classes seem to be Fighters and Rogues for some reason). So, I usually end up with a party of PCs like Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Bard (or Barbarian). None of my players seem to like the Cleric or Sorcerer classes. Thus, I believe the trap will stand as follows:
DougC 09-27-04, 08:36 PM	The Sphere of Doom (CR 12*): Role: To protect something of grave importance (an uber-powerful artifact, for example). Background: Many moons ago, a very powerful artifact of unknown origin was discovered. This artifact was found to have the potential to destroy worlds. Upon realizing this, The Good Wizard Thamion (Elf Wizard 18) began a project to keep the artifact a secret from the world. He had built an extensive vault designed to hide and protect the artifact from any who would seek it out, if knowledge of it were ever to get out in any way. Thamion's vault is filled with tricks and traps designed to "discourage" any who enter it from completing their goals of obtaining the artifact. Knowledge of the artifact's existence, even the vault that it lies buried in, has been kept secret from all but the gods. Until now. (The Sphere Trap is one of the last traps to be encountered in Thamion's vault.) Usage: The highest ranking cleric of the church of any LG deity has been contacted by her god with disturbing news. The world is in imminent danger of being destroyed by some random natural occurrence (a giant asteroid hurtling through space, for example). The artifact is the only thing that can save their world. Knowing that the BBEG has been scrying on her, the cleric seeks to hire an adventuring party to find the item for her. Once the PCs are in her employ, the cleric will give them only the barest minimum of information about the artifact and the vault that it lies in (no more than what information is under "Background" above), perhaps giving even that information in code or riddle. Of course, she only knows of the vault and the artifact inside, information given to her by her god, she does not know any details of what lies inside the vault (monsters, traps, etcetera). Description/Stats: The Sphere of Doom is a 60 ft. spherical room made of 2 in. thick iron, pocked with 2 in. diameter holes set precisely 8 inches apart from one another. It is delicately balanced on the edge, at the top of a 45 degree slope, the length of which is 2 miles. The PCs enter the room through a door set in the center of its "wall." Stretching across the center of this otherwise hollow room is a long, 2 in. wide/thick iron beam with Elven Runes etched into it on all sides. Closer inspection of the beam will reveal that it has six seperate blocks set around a central beam, each block with Elven Runes etched in it. Around the center of the room, also are etched Elven Runes. Elven Runes can be found here. (http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/vortexshadow/elfrunes.html) When the PCs first enter the sphere, the blocks on the beam are set thusly: Top Side: [the shortest] [distance between] [two points] [is a] [straight] [line] Left Side: [one] [could] [have] [had] [some] [lunch] Right Side: [you] [must] [in] [a] [pickle] Bottom Side: [the] [elves] [of Quariis ] [built] [no] [dam] To walk across the beam requires a Balance Check (DC 15). Any character falling off of the beam must make a Reflex Save (DC 10) to grab a hold of it or plunge to the floor below for 3d6 damage. Once over half of the party's weight is across the center of the beam, the sphere will roll off of its perch and begin its descent toward the ocean below. As the sphere begins to roll, the entrance door slams shut and locks. It will take the sphere 10 rounds (one minute) to roll down the hill, into the ocean. Once it begins to roll, any character still standing on the beam must succeed at a Reflex Save (DC 15) to grab a hold of the beam or plunge to the floor below for 3d6 damage. Any character who has fallen and is trying to grab a hold of the beam as the sphere rolls must succeed at a Dex Check (DC 15+1/round) to do so. Any character who is holding on the the beam as the sphere is rolling must make a Strength Check (DC 15+1/round) to maintain a grip on it. Any PCs on the “floor” as the sphere is rolling will roll up with the "floor" and then fall for 1d6 damage (Ref DC 15 for half). A character could, conceivably, use the holes in the walls as finger holds if so desired. To do this, the character must make a Dex Check DC 20 to grab a hold and, if successful, a Str Check DC 20 to hold on. Of course, any character doing so would have to let go before the part of the “wall” that they are on would roll over the ground, crushing the character’s fingers. Any character attempting to cast a spell as the sphere is rolling must make a Concentration Check DC 20+the spells level+the amount of damage taken. Once in the water, the sphere will sink to the ocean floor (300 ft. below) in one round. Water begins to pour into the sphere through the holes at a rate of about 3,513 gallons per round. It will take 200 rounds (20 minutes) for the sphere to completely fill with water. This area of ocean is inhabited by electric eels and/or sharks. Some of the electric eels would be small enough to enter the sphere through the holes. Both doors are locked and trapped with poison needle traps. The door the PCs entered from has an Open Lock DC of 15 and the door opposite it has an Open Lock DC of 20. The Search DC for the poison needle traps are DC 20, the attack bonus +10. Disable Device DC 20 for both traps. The needles are coated with Giant Wasp Poison (Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Dex. The save DC is Constitution-based). The Elven Runes spell out this message: "To stop or control, or hinder water flow, one must have done this." When the blocks on the center beam are arranged in a manner in which they spell out, "One must have built a dam," the holes in the sphere will close, stopping the flow of water into the sphere. Now, the door opposite the one the PCs entered the room through, when in place in the vault, opened onto a 5 ft. wide by 10 ft. long walkway going into the corridor that leads to the chamber which contains the artifact that the PCs are after. This means that once the PCs have escaped the sphere and swam back to the surface, they must then trek the two miles back up the hill to the now empty chamber the sphere rolled out of, climb 30 ft. up a sheer, smooth rock wall and re-enter the vault on the side where their destination lie. Getting from that point to their destination, however, can be as easy or as difficult as the DM wishes to make it. The hill can be populated with whatever creatures the DM sees fit, making the party's two mile trek back to the vault as difficult as the DM wishes it to be. *The CR can be adjusted up or down by changing the poison type that the needles are coated with. See "Traps" in the DMG or the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35). Variant as suggested by [B] Fixxxer: Barbed spikes can be added to the walls, between the holes, thus, upon falling, the PCs have a chance of becoming stuck to the walls, taking 1d6 spike damage in addition to falling damage and must make a Str Check DC 15 to pull themselves free of the spike. (A truly Evil DM he is :devil: ;)) A very special thank you to BlueLion for taking the time and trouble to figure out the physics behind the Sphere of Doom (especially given the number of assumptions that he had to make) and to MinusInnocence for giving me the beam combination idea and the idea to put electric eels and sharks in the water. Thanks to crazysamaritan for his continued help, Fixxxer for his spikes suggestion, Dash Branaghan for his words of encouragement, and to Evandar_TAybara for supplying me with the name of the trap. :D And, as always, have fun! :D
Vanigo 09-27-04, 09:12 PM	Problem. The sphere needs a clear path to roll down. However, the exit door leads to a corridor that has to be in the same place that the sphere needs to roll down through. To illustrate: _____ / \ / \ Problem| | _______=_______=______ | | \ / \_____/ ----- / / / / The walkway labeld as a problem is in the way. I suppose you could have it be some sort of moving walkway that swings into place when the exit door is opened.
Rerednaw 09-27-04, 09:32 PM	Blink (walk through the sphere). Gaseous Form (flow through the sphere). Now both of these are 3rd level spells. But most 5th level wizards do not usually memorize utility (or even defensive) spells in their highest slots. My wizards do, but then I'm paranoid and always want an escape button. Of course this only means the wizard can save himself and maybe one other party member. But once two party members are out, considering their preparedness and abilities, they may be able to divert/slow or otherwise neutralize the sphere. Cheers.
DougC 09-27-04, 11:53 PM	Problem. The sphere needs a clear path to roll down. However, the exit door leads to a corridor that has to be in the same place that the sphere needs to roll down through. To illustrate: _____ / \ / \ Problem| | _______=_______=______ | | \ / \_____/ ----- / / / / The walkway labeld as a problem is in the way. I suppose you could have it be some sort of moving walkway that swings into place when the exit door is opened. This problem is solved easily enough. In fact, you've solved if for me. :D Blink (walk through the sphere). Gaseous Form (flow through the sphere). Now both of these are 3rd level spells. But most 5th level wizards do not usually memorize utility (or even defensive) spells in their highest slots. My wizards do, but then I'm paranoid and always want an escape button. Of course this only means the wizard can save himself and maybe one other party member. But once two party members are out, considering their preparedness and abilities, they may be able to divert/slow or otherwise neutralize the sphere. Cheers. Honestly, I don't really see this as a problem. DM: You come to an iron door. Rogue: I search for traps. DM: You don't find any. Rogue: I try to open it. DM: The door opens into the center of a 60 ft. spherical room that appears to be made of iron with 2 inch diamter holes set 8 inches apart. There is a 2 inch wide, 2 inch thick iron beam stretching across the middle of the room from this door to a door exactly opposite it. Elven runes are etched into the beam. The elf/elves can read the runes, they say, "The shortest distance between two points is a straight line." Players (all): We walk across it. DM: Roll Balance Checks. (Let's assume for simplicity's sake that they all make their Balance Checks.) Just as half the party steps over the center point of the beam, you feel a jerk and the room begins to move, rolling downward fast and you all fall off of the beam. Players: We try to grab a hold of the beam! DM: Roll Dex Checks to see if you grab hold! At his point, any spellcasters in the party are going to be too busy trying to hold on/holding on to the beam or bouncing around in the sphere to attempt to cast any spells. So, what would the concentration check DC be to cast a spell inside a 60 ft. iron ball rolling down a hill at 120 miles per hour? When I'm more awake, I will have to edit the text to include the settings of the blocks with the runes and how they read, but the CR remains the same. :D
Rerednaw 09-28-04, 12:37 AM	This problem is solved easily enough. In fact, you've solved if for me. :D Honestly, I don't really see this as a problem. DM: You come to an iron door. Rogue: I search for traps. DM: You don't find any. Rogue: I try to open it. DM: The door opens into the center of a 60 ft. spherical room that appears to be made of iron with 2 inch diamter holes set 8 inches apart. There is a 2 inch wide, 2 inch thick iron beam stretching across the middle of the room from this door to a door exactly opposite it. Elven runes are etched into the beam. The elf/elves can read the runes, they say, "The shortest distance between two points is a straight line." Players (all): We walk across it. DM: Roll Balance Checks. (Let's assume for simplicity's sake that they all make their Balance Checks.) Just as half the party steps over the center point of the beam, you feel a jerk and the room begins to move, rolling downward fast and you all fall off of the beam. Players: We try to grab a hold of the beam! DM: Roll Dex Checks to see if you grab hold! At his point, any spellcasters in the party are going to be too busy trying to hold on/holding on to the beam or bouncing around in the sphere to attempt to cast any spells. So, what would the concentration check DC be to cast a spell inside a 60 ft. iron ball rolling down a hill at 120 miles per hour? When I'm more awake, I will have to edit the text to include the settings of the blocks with the runes and how they read, but the CR remains the same. :D If the bouncing around isn't doing any damage, then probably the same as a standard concentration check. If it does damage, then the standard check plus damage taken. That's assuming no one has a wand or potion which wouldn't require a concentration check at all. Just a thought.
crazysamaritan 09-28-04, 01:07 AM	Even if one of my players were to take Airwalk as a spell, Clerics can only cast 6th level spells 2+1 times/day and Sorcerers 3 times per day, and Wizards only 2 times per day. Only problem is this: airwalk is a 4th level spell, and fly is a 3rd. a wizard with a few flys, a rogue with boots of fly, and a cleric who stored airwalk are all goning to have an easy time past it. I DO have an idea, though! A previous trap is a chasm. The first reaction players will have is fly across. With a permenant (or triggered) antimagic spell, the fly spells will be used up, a simple trap is present, and you have a precedent for traversing narrow ledges.
DougC 09-28-04, 06:14 AM	If the bouncing around isn't doing any damage, then probably the same as a standard concentration check. If it does damage, then the standard check plus damage taken. That's assuming no one has a wand or potion which wouldn't require a concentration check at all. Just a thought. Any PCs on the “floor” as the sphere is rolling will roll up with the "floor" and then fall for 1d6 damage (Ref DC 15 for half). ~"The Sphere of Doom" Description/Stats, paragraph 2. Concentration DC1: 20 Distraction: Extraordinarily violent motion (earthquake). (1 If you are trying to cast, concentrate on, or direct a spell when the distraction occurs, add the level of the spell to the indicated DC.) ~Skills I Considering that it is recurring damage, it could concievably be viewed as "trying to cast, concentrate on, or direct a spell when the distraction occurs," making the Concentration DC 20+6+damage taken, putting it in the range of 27 to 32. How difficult or easily this is to achieve depends on the individual spellcaster and how she's spent her skill points up to this point. (Of course, there's always the Metamagic Feats :D) Only problem is this: airwalk is a 4th level spell, and fly is a 3rd. a wizard with a few flys, a rogue with boots of fly, and a cleric who stored airwalk are all goning to have an easy time past it. I DO have an idea, though! A previous trap is a chasm. The first reaction players will have is fly across. With a permenant (or triggered) antimagic spell, the fly spells will be used up, a simple trap is present, and you have a precedent for traversing narrow ledges. Hmmm, now why have I failed to see the blatantly obvious? :confused: (Where's the "d'oh!" smilie when you need it?) Thank you, crazysamaritan for reminding me: Thamion's vault is filled with tricks and traps designed to discourage any who enter it from completing their goals of obtaining the artifact...(The Sphere Trap is one of the last traps to be encountered in Thamion's vault.) ~"The Sphere of Doom" Background. "filled with tricks and traps" and "one of the last traps" being the key words here. :D Of course, the CR could be lowered by using Fixxxer's spikes suggestion (one instance of 3d4 damage, then you're stuck to the "wall" giving an average of 7 points damage one time, putting back at CR 7). I really do like this suggestion, it's just that I like the idea of the PCs bouncing around just a tad bit more (more fun for me :devil: ;)). Now, if you'll excuse me, I really need to get back to sleep, I've got a killer RL, non-facetious sinus headache right now. :weep: Thank you all for helping to keep me intelectually occupied. ;)
DougC 09-28-04, 05:35 PM	The text of the "Sphere of Doom" has been edited to include the setting of the beam combination blocks as the PCs enter the sphere and some typos were corrected. A colossal Thank You to everyone who helped me with this thing. :) Now all I have to do is get to work designing the rest of "Thamion's Vault." :devil: ~Doug
crazysamaritan 09-28-04, 06:38 PM	Don't forget to send us the full mod when you're done! It sounds good, hope you enjoy yourself.
DougC 09-28-04, 06:41 PM	Don't forget to send us the full mod when you're done! It sounds good, hope you enjoy yourself. No problem. Glad you like the sphere. And thanks for all of your help. :)