Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WCH 10-17-04, 08:25 PM	Okay, we've had a discussion on how the PCs met a little while ago, but what I just ran into is a slightly different problem. Specifically... how do you get the PCs to become a party, when all of them are nobodies, working for different temples, and the quest you're sending them on is irrelevant (kill a couple rats, collect taxes from some poor person, stuff like that)? Campaign starts in a series of urban adventures, the purpose of which is to (slowly) rise through the ranks in a mercenary clan. That'd be really simple if they all started as members of it, but I don't want to do that to them, and they all have different backstories... a fighter (whose religion I'm not sure of yet, but I've told him to make sure to include it in his backstory), a Favoured Soul of Pelor, a Shugenja of Heironeous and a Rogue of Olidammara. Possibly a fifth char, not sure yet (I think the four made are all humans. Knowing the fifth player, if he joins the campaign, he'll probably make something more exotic just for the sake of making something more exotic). How would you get them to start working in a group? I really hate deus ex machina setups, but I'm at a loss of how else to orchestrate it. One of the problems with it is the missions I'll be giving them at first don't need 4 or 5 adventurers to take care of them. In fact, they're intentionally easy, to the point of being errands more than missions ("take this dagger to the weaponsmith and have him sharpen it for me"). Why would the PCs band together to do stuff that any one of them could probably handle solo?
The Philosopher King 10-17-04, 08:37 PM	I'd say that the bast way to get them to work together is by having something horrible happen to them, which requires them to band together in order to survive. Especially if there's a sense of them saving each other. In the campaign I'm running, the PCs happened to all be guests at the same wedding (with varying connections to the bride). When she was kidnapped and a bunch of goblins started a bit of a bloodbath in the temple, they weren't reluctant to go find her. Even though their tasks are ridiculously easy, perhaps there could be a reason for why they need help. Maybe the dagger that needs sharpening is actually a portal key to Asmodeus' fridge, and the smithy an avatar of the Llolth? Somewhat extreme example, but the point is to have a hidden agenda behind what they have to do. Especially if they end up finding out something horrible happened and they were betrayed because they bought a speckled finch rather than a spotted one.... or something.
MortalPlague 10-17-04, 08:51 PM	Or even something riddiculously simple. You could make it a rough town, where characters travelling alone and carrying a nice-looking dagger to be sharpened could be confronted by a group of NPC rogues who would steal it and take the PCs gear. Perhaps even a rivalling merc guild? The PCs wouldn't want to go out on their own, or they'd learn the lesson quickly.
Morka 10-17-04, 09:10 PM	How large is your mercenaries band? Is it possible to have 4 differents lieutenants asking 4 of their rookies to have some weapons sharpened all in the same time? A 5th player? What about an apprentice weaponsmith?
WCH 10-17-04, 09:13 PM	Merc group will be fairly sizeable, but spread out over several cities; I'm basing it on the Fighter's Guild from Morrowind. Sending 4 people with a dagger each just seems downright corny... Basically, what all the silly, frivilous missions come down to is a desire to have the PCs get to know the city intimately; where everything is, what the people are like, etc, and for their chars to have met the various important NPCs.
MortalPlague 10-17-04, 09:44 PM	Another thought... if you're up to DM'ing it, you could have the PCs do the quests seperately, establishing their own rapport with the various members of the community. Then they get assigned on a mission together later on, when it actually does become important to have multiple people on one assignment.
WCH 10-17-04, 09:53 PM	@Mortal I'd considered it, but the problem is it'd be boring for the other players for me to spend 5 minutes with one of them and ignore the rest and then trade off. Plus, that requires me to think up 5 times as many quests... and the worst would be that I'm playing a PC in it, too (we're doing round-robin DMing; I'm starting as DM, but trading off after a couple weeks), and I can hardly roleplay encounters with myself by myself. Well, I could, but it'd just be silly. :rolleyes: Have you ever done something like that before? If you say it works, I'll take your word for it...
Edymnion 10-17-04, 10:07 PM	I really hate deus ex machina setupsUnfortunately, it is nearly impossible to start a group up together without it. What I tend to do with a group is tell them up front "Okay, you guys are going to be working together for a long time. You are going to have to trust each other with your lives. As such, you must have a good reason to be together. I highly suggest that you talk amongst yourselves and come up with something that you all like, so we can start the game as a group. At the very least, I want everybody paired up in sets of two or three." Because, other than doing that, the only real option is to give everybody individual game time with none of the other PCs in it, and then railroad them all into meeting and working together, which still comes across as dues ex machina. So, there is going to have to be some railroading to get the party together, and for them to stick together. Better to give the players the ability to determine their own backgrounds and why they travel together than to tell them why, IMO.
Master Agnald 10-17-04, 10:57 PM	Humm... as it's been said... you could try getting them together in the same place at the same time and have something horrible happen... for example, they could all have some sort of errand to fulfill with the blacksmith, then, when they're all there, someone could come and try to rob the place. Then they would have to act together to stop the thieves. Maybe even being rewarded by local paladins if they're caught alive... that could be a good way for them to introduce themselves to each other. But that's just an idea.
DeathMagus 10-17-04, 11:10 PM	a fighter (whose religion I'm not sure of yet, but I've told him to make sure to include it in his backstory), a Favoured Soul of Pelor, a Shugenja of Heironeous and a Rogue of Olidammara. Possibly a fifth char, not sure yet (I think the four made are all humans. Knowing the fifth player, if he joins the campaign, he'll probably make something more exotic just for the sake of making something more exotic). Here's a big problem. As the DM, you NEED to know everything you can about your characters. After all, it's your job to custom-fit the campaign to them. If you don't know the fighter's religion, how can you find any religious motive for him? You might need to at some point. Know how your characters tick, and you will be able to provide quests that they are all interested in, bringing the party together.
crazysamaritan 10-17-04, 11:20 PM	Play the 'boot instructor' "You four (five) maggots all signed up to merc guild, why?" Open it up like that, the group of them don't know each other, are all in the same 'class' and have to do simple jobs as part of their training. Some time in the future you might switch off and have new people join (opportunity for dead characters replenished, and retiring old ones) but basically you are going to 'eat sleep, drink and fight' with this same group for the next few weeks until the guild trusts you enough for the important job. Once the stupid chores are done, an NPC will explain why they had to go through the stupid stuff and send them on a real quest. A bit of DeM, but realistic.
strontium 10-18-04, 01:56 AM	One of our favorite Catch all startup (if you dont want to do a few solo sessions first) is the good old 'you've been drafted into the city malitia, and guess who your squad buddies are :-)' It's not elegant but serves to introduce the party to one another, gives them chances for training, basic equipment, local knowledge etc, a minimal source of equipment, and plenty of adventures. Strontium
Bringslite 10-18-04, 02:45 AM	WCH, How about if one Npc hires the group to go together to "get his dagger sharpened". Why? Because the weaponsmith owes him money or something and having a group show up is sending a little message: I've got muscle now so watch out. Maybe the NPC is sending a message to a few NPC's around town with his new muscle. :D
Escef 10-18-04, 06:44 AM	The Shugenja and Favored Soul could be working together to learn about each other's style of magic, this is also fairly easy to justify as they come from religions that are fairly hospitable to one another. The fighter could have been hired by one of the churches as a bodyguard for one of the clerical PCs, or be the childhood friend of one of them. The rogue could have been assigned by their guild to low-level surveilance operations in one of the churches, perhaps posing as a lay worshipper, and jumped at a chance to hang around with folks that might get into trouble as a break from his otherwise monotonous duties. The possible fifth character (hopefully an arcane caster to round out the group) could b a friend of the rogue or is going along because he wants to get a favor out of the group later (such as helping him get a powerful magic item or scroll). As for the "dagger sharpening", make it a tad more interesting. If you have access to it, there are "item familiar" rules in Unearthed Arcana. Perhaps the PCs are taking an item familiar/sword to get a new hilt put on it, and there's only one smith the owner would trust to do it. Because item familiars do not easily co-operate with folks other than its owner it can be an item of modest power, thus it needs to be guarded and the PCs won't be able to use it. The owner would have taken care of it himself, but is tied up with administrative duties (perhaps in the mercanary group?).
WCH 10-18-04, 10:15 AM	Here's a big problem. As the DM, you NEED to know everything you can about your characters. After all, it's your job to custom-fit the campaign to them. If you don't know the fighter's religion, how can you find any religious motive for him? You might need to at some point. Know how your characters tick, and you will be able to provide quests that they are all interested in, bringing the party together.See, that's the thing, the campaign hasn't started yet. It starts Saturday, and that's assuming everything's ready on time and everyone can make it. The first two hours of that session will be devoted to making chars and introducing the players to the world. The reason I know one of them is a fighter is because he told me about the ranger he wanted to make, I pointed out that it'd be mostly urban adventures for the first few sessions (and that I'd allow rangers, but he'd have to fit it to his backstory for him to be spending a lot of time in the city), so then he said, and I quote, "Bard and/or fighter it is." Nothing more. The character doesn't exist yet; the player in question is good with roleplaying (the only regular I play with who doesn't tend to munchkin, including myself), and I've told him that religion is important in the campaign, so I'm sure I'll know his religion soon enough. @Master Agnald That could work... I think I'll use that, thanks. :)
Primal 10-18-04, 10:32 AM	Unless you want the characters to belong to the mercenary group right from the first session, then they could all be hired individually by someone related to the group who uses such missions to single out possible recruits. The characters will meet each other only when they respond to their possible employer's invitation. A succesful handling of the first assignment could open up the way for the mercenary group. By the way, I have to admit that the mercenary group scenario sounds kind of dangerous. Most of the players I know would avoid having their characters involved with the hiererchy and duties involved (especially chaotic characters). You might find your campaign going in a different way than the one you have planned, especially if you are not aware of character backgrounds and ambitions.
Thomar_of_Uointer 10-18-04, 10:35 AM	How I did it on my most successful session: "You're all in a BAR." (unavoidable, we all had a good laugh over the cliche) Talk individually with each player: "Why is your character, a Monk, who should be in a monastery meditating and practicing martial arts, here in a bar?" And they have to have a good answer. "You've all met each other." No problems with relationships. "A merchant walks in, looks around, approaches you (collectively)," because the PCs look cheap, "and asks you if you'll escort him and his goods to the northern rest stop." This trader needs an escort through the orc/kobold/goblin-infested mountains so he can trade with people who are going to make the 3-month caravan route across the plains. They negotiate a price, and go do it. After, they may do some more jobs with that trader. And it goes on from there. And that's about it. Don't worry about the cliche of it all starting in a BAR. Everyone starts in bars, just because. Just be sure it's believeable.
MarkB 10-18-04, 10:46 AM	If the only purpose of these initial piecmeal missions is to get the characters familiar with the setting, then don't play through them at all in detail - abstract them, provide a basic grounding, and give each player a 1-2-page handout of supplementary information that his character should know. Then set up a situation whereby they've each been sent on individual missions which led to the same place and turn out to have intersecting goals, such that the PCs can only succeed at their individual goals through co-operation. Yes, it's a bit of a deus ex machina, but if your alternative is just hoping they happen to meet and hit it off, then it's sensible to intervene.
StormKnight 10-18-04, 11:26 AM	Why in the world would you take the PCs through things like killing rats and running errands? Geez, I just commented over on the Eberron boards how nobody would ever run a game like that!!! Just go with game intro: "So, you've been scraping by in <city>, making a living killing rats and running errands..." Really. Unless you want to bore your players, just skip those boring "pointless errand" quests. Nobody gives a damn how many tough weeds Frodo rooted before Gandalf came or how many womprats Luke bullseyed before he found a litte droid.
Death Unlimited 10-18-04, 11:38 AM	Dont worry, setting up has been a problem for me too sometimes. But i admit I am guilty of using the "Tavern" setup several times. However, I find that even basic things can work well, especially if you flavor them up with a bit of excitment, and even a little humor sometimes. Not enough to make a comedy campaign, but just enough to get the people going. I am in the process of working on a large campaign at the moment, starting in 2 months(yeah, long time but Ill need it), just started the work, and the folks know what they want to play for the most part...I plan on using a tavernish starting as well. Sometimes asking each of the people some things, like maybe what they could be doing in a particular town or city, then from their brainstorm how they could all meet. Attacks on the area are a little cliche, but they can work, drunken tavern brawls are a little less dangerous at first and can sometimes add a chuckle. Natural disasters can always band folks together. But yeah, sometimes little meaningless tasks can be a bit boring, even a first level fighter, unless he was utterly destitute, i doubt would want to take a job stabbing rats in the basement of a bakery. Of course, the bigger your starting city, if its a city, the easier it is to get them together I think, a little more reason for the folks to be there.
VirgilCaine 10-18-04, 12:16 PM	Why would the PCs band together to do stuff that any one of them could probably handle solo? Because one guy would get mugged seven times walking to the weaponsmith.
WCH 10-18-04, 01:44 PM	Why in the world would you take the PCs through things like killing rats and running errands? Geez, I just commented over on the Eberron boards how nobody would ever run a game like that!!! Just go with game intro: "So, you've been scraping by in <city>, making a living killing rats and running errands..." Really. Unless you want to bore your players, just skip those boring "pointless errand" quests. Nobody gives a damn how many tough weeds Frodo rooted before Gandalf came or how many womprats Luke bullseyed before he found a litte droid.Well, if you're a powergamer, yes, you're right. If you're in it for roleplay and want to build an entire campaign from the ground up, then humble begininnings are important. Actually spending time doing irrelevant stuff makes the background more than just some words on a page, and actually who the characters are. You see, the problem I have is that, with the exception of one player (and the potential 5th, who's never played D&D before, but when I've talked to him it's been very clear that he considers it more of an opportunity to act than to get make-believe treasure), my group is prone to power-gaming. It's not that we want to powergame, just that we've been spoiled by CRPGs. We've all played the Final Fantasy games, we've all played Chrono Trigger, and we've all played a dozen other games of that ilk -- wonderful games, but do you ever for a minute need to roleplay in them? Now we're working on overcoming that, and getting the PCs to do menial tasks is part of that. Whole point of this particular campaign is that the characters are nobodies who eventually become godlike, and I'm working on emphasising both ends of the spectrum (they start by killing rats and being mistreated by an arrogant mercenary leader, they end by killing Asmodeus and ruling Hell itself).
crazysamaritan 10-19-04, 02:10 AM	If that's the case, I STRONGLY suggest you play it the way I suggested earlier. Not because I presented it particularly well, but because going through Basic Combat Training is designed to make you consider yuorself "mud" or "maggots" before you advance yourself. I spent five weeks waiting for our Drill Sergeant to call us "Maggots" instead of "slugs", only to have some other group mess up. When he heard about what they did, he thought we were the ones who did it, so he refused to even call us slugs. We had to work our way back up to that, and it took two days to do that, and another week to maggot. When you get finished, you are proud to be called a "soldier" by the same man who seemed to take your failures as a personal insult. It's a very effective method of self-esteem boosting. Have everyone's character start off in that situation. Watch a bit of Full Metal Jacket and say their characters go through some stuff like that. Remember to joke around about it OOC, so it's not too serious. Other than that, I consider it an effective way to start someone out at ground level. A similar progression that Basic was would be to tyake daggers to be sharpened, with the Drill Sergeant going with us. THen next week, we can bring the dagger ourselves. Then the week after that (if we earn it) we can get our own weapons sharpened.
StormKnight 10-19-04, 11:14 AM	Well, if you're a powergamer, yes, you're right. If you're in it for roleplay and want to build an entire campaign from the ground up, then humble begininnings are important. Actually spending time doing irrelevant stuff makes the background more than just some words on a page, and actually who the characters are. Well, I suppose everyone has their own ideas of what's interesting to roleplay. I just can't picture the whole "trivial task" as anything other than the Baldur's Gate type "go here, talk to NPC, go there talk to NPC" Yeah, they did it in Baldur's gate. That resulted in my girlfriend and I playing for 10 minutes and then quitting, never to look at it again. If you are really going to make the roleplaying interesting, it could work. But if you expect killing rats to make for an enjoyable session because it will boost up your XP, forget it. On the other hand, if the PCs were young street urchnis with no particular combat skills, could be very challenging. But, sorry, I'm a 'powergame' because I don't enjoy tedious, dull tasks? Now we're working on overcoming that, and getting the PCs to do menial tasks is part of that. Whole point of this particular campaign is that the characters are nobodies who eventually become godlike, and I'm working on emphasising both ends of the spectrum (they start by killing rats and being mistreated by an arrogant mercenary leader, they end by killing Asmodeus and ruling Hell itself). Personally, I wouldn't recommend planning their life for them either. If you already know what's going to happen, where's the room for their choices?
The_EvilDungeon_Master 10-19-04, 06:54 PM	Well, I suppose everyone has their own ideas of what's interesting to roleplay. I just can't picture the whole "trivial task" as anything other than the Baldur's Gate type "go here, talk to NPC, go there talk to NPC" Yeah, they did it in Baldur's gate. That resulted in my girlfriend and I playing for 10 minutes and then quitting, never to look at it again. That's unfortunate, the BG Series was awesome, thought mainly the 2nd one.
Solarious 10-19-04, 07:24 PM	Actually, I would put them in a confined area and then invoke danger. For instance, the characters are all on a lift of some sort. There's a fight or a riot going on somewhere in the dinstance, but it's out of the way. All of a sudden, Fireballs and Lightning Bolts start flying! One or the other hits something neccessary to the lift and it stops! Looks like a looooong way down :devil: The characters hear creaking: they have only 5 rounds before the entire thing plunges down the said long dinstance. What do your characters do? :smirk: Another wonderful motivator is a good'ole fashioned WAR. :schemes: The city is under attack! Dump them somewhere together in the same area, and that section of the city gets invaded. If they don't work together, they're screwed. Natural disasters. Nothing like it. :cloud9: The town is flooding! Whoops, the inn the characters are in get swept away. :devil: I'm told that being inside a tossing and turning building that is being carried away is bad for a person's health. :smirk: Or how about the classic Earthquake? You are underground and the world gives a burp. Is it a problem if you run out of air down there? :devil: Goodie, goodie. There's an arsonist in town. :inlove: What happens when a warehouse of oil catches on fire? It blows up and sets the entire district on fire, that's what :schemes: Better yet, these encounters can immediately plunge your characters hip-deep into a villianous plot. A power strugle between two powerful cabals can easily trigger a game of 'who can blow each other up first' in public. There is always someone profiting off a war in malevonent and world-threatening ways. Nature goes mad as someone pokes something that should have been left alone. A plot to trigger a civil war and weaken a nation starts with chaos, and heaps of it please :smirk: I mean, really. Think a little, and I'm sure that the possibilities are too many to use :tiphat:
WCH 10-19-04, 11:01 PM	Personally, I wouldn't recommend planning their life for them either. If you already know what's going to happen, where's the room for their choices?Well, basically, what happened is that I had just gotten the Book of Vile Darkness, and we were discussing starting up a campaign. I said how it'd be awesome to do a campaign in Hell (since the politics are so plainly laid out in the BoVD), but that I'd need a lot more time to read up on it, and we also wanted to do an entire campaign from the ground up, humble-beginnings and all. I think Blake was the one who suggested we combine the two... campaign on the material plane, eventually catch the eye of some Arch-Fiends, and possibly get enslaved, although by who and whether it works or not will, of course, depend on the characters when it eventually happens, months from now. We might not even do it. Who knows?