"Tons" of damage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Tons" of damage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheWerg
12-17-06, 02:35 AM I'm about to run a one-shot, 9th level adventure for my group. One of my players made a character, brought it to school, and was touting its "huge" damage and talking about how effing much damage it does. I looked at it, and it TWFs for 2d8+1d6+7 in primary hand and 2d8+1d6+6 in off hand with attack bonuses of 11/6 in each hand. It doesn't seem like very much. Sorry if I'm off, my group isn't exactly full of optimizers. Don't ask how he came up with his damage and attack bonuses; I know very little about the character. If it's not that much, what should I tell him?
tsuyoshikentsu
12-17-06, 02:45 AM ...

Wow. Just... wow.

Show him a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian wielding a Fulblade a la Power Attack. For overkill, make it a Warhulk or Frenzied Berserker. That's just off the top of my head -- I'm positive there's better.

(This really belongs in the CharOp forums, and I happen to be from there.)
memberZ
12-17-06, 02:51 AM It's possible but it does hint of slight interpritations of the rules.
Without more info it's really hard to say.
As a DM it is in your right to make all players submit characters for examination prior to exceptance. Then you can go over their sheets for mistakes. Also It's ok to ask for a PC flow sheet to show by level what class, feat, and skills they took.

If not countered with a FB than a wizard or psion (ego whip), as I'd bet his saves and dump stats are low.
TheWerg
12-17-06, 02:59 AM ...

Wow. Just... wow.

Show him a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian wielding a Fullblade a la Power Attack. For overkill, make it a Warhulk or Frenzied Berserker. That's just off the top of my head -- I'm positive there's better.

(This really belongs in the CharOp forums, and I happen to be from there.)
Yeah... I really didn't think it was much but in my campaigns they never make very good characters, so I wanted to make sure my assessment was right. He made a human wielding two large bastard swords with Monkey Grip and Oversized TWF or something... Anyone know what his average damage would be?

Sorry about the wrong boards thing, but I wasn't sure where this one belonged.
runestar
12-17-06, 03:21 AM 2d8 is 1 step up from 1d10. I believe he should be using monkey grip or powerful build to dual-wield large katanas or bastard swords. The +1d6 could be some sort of elemental damage flag. The static damage bonus seems a tad off - judging by the difference(7 vs 6 in off-hand), it implies that his str score is only 14 max, and the rest probably comes from weapon spec/weapon enhancement bonuses.

I wouldn't worry too much about it - to-hit of +11 at lv9 is really very low. I think he will find that he will have a hard time hitting his targets. Nor is his damage really very impressive.
Archmage Atrus
12-17-06, 09:26 AM You asked, and the average damage he'll be doing is:
2d8 = 9 (4.5x2)
1d6 = 3.5
+7 = +7.

So that's 16 + 3.5 (presumably elemental, so it could be resisted.)

Yeah, this is seriously average for a 9th level fighter. Consider a two handed weapon stright up fighter:
2d6 (greatsword) = 7
22 strength (easily achievable at 9th) = +9
Weapon spec = +2
Enhancement bonus from weapon = +2
That right there is 20. Admittedly you attack less, but consider that your player is also taking, what, a -6 to his attacks? (-2 for TWF, -2 for using weapons weapons larger than Light, -2 for using oversized weapons.) Assuming the greatsword wielding fighter used Power Attack to achieve the same penalty, his damage bumps up to 32 - which is, in one hit, what your character would have to hit twice for.

And I'm not even trying here.

Also, you might want to recheck his numbers. Something does, in fact, seem off. He either has a low strength, or he added his attack bonuses totally wrong. There's no way a 9th level character with barely-above-average strength is attackins with a +11 bonus while at the same time taking a -6 penaly to his attacks.
Serrin
12-17-06, 09:51 AM 9th level you say? One-shot adventure, you say?

They're just begging for some good Tomb of Horrors action.
Onikani
12-17-06, 10:14 AM Half orc barbarian.
Level 2.
Enough point buy to buy an 18 in st and dump everything else.
"Power attack" feat at first level.
Wield a 2 handed weapon.
Rage.

Raging st 24. (+7 hit, +10dmg)
Power attack for full (+4 dmg)

2d6 (or d12) +14 damage. = average 21 damage.
i already win, and i'm second level.

That same bararian grows up to 9th level. He spends his 3rd, 6th, and 9th level feats on Skill Focus:noob.
and has somehow never managed to find a single magic item anywhere in teh world. But he did add 2 stat points to his strength.
Also, he never multiclassed or prestiged, he is simply a Barb9.

St 22
Raging str 26 (+8 hit, +12 dmg)
Power attack for full (+18)
2d6 (or d12) +30 = average 37 damage.
(remember he can do that 2x for a total of 74 damage)

Give him a +4 st item (easily available at say, 7th level) and a +3 greatsword (likwise)

st 26
Raging st 30 (+10 hit, +15 dmg)
Power attack for full +18

Total to hit +10+3= +13
2d6 +3 + 15 + 18 = 2d6 + 36 = average 43 damage.
(two attacks = 86 damage)

And that is totally basic... I only needed one feat, a core race, and technically a 16 point buy.

Adding monkey grip adds an addition d6 to all the damages above, which means you can easily break 50 damage (100 if both hit) and still have +13/+8 to hit.
and agin, we're not even tryin.

***
EDIT - that d6 damage is probably sneak attack. I'd bet he took level 1 as a rogue to get SA and massive skill points. Which means that in a non SA situation he does 4x(2d8) or 8d8. Which has a lovely average of 36 points plus those odd bonuses 7+7+6+6 =26 (assuming they work out).
36+26 = 62 .... but only if all 4 attacks hit!!!!!
pierow37
12-17-06, 10:17 AM HA! I had a guy on play an 8th lvl minator barbarian weilding a greatsword, with a powerattack and got a crit.HA! it did like 253 dmg or something in a round. IT WAS CRAZY!

So I would tell him that it's not good to brag, and leave it at that. Don't tell him if it's good or not. Thats his opinion.
Aratex
12-17-06, 11:48 AM A 9th level TWF'er should have at least 3 attacks, unless he did something drastic to drag his BAB down or didn't actually take TWF feats and isn't attacking with his offhand.

You definitely need to look his sheet over before you start playing. In order to TWF with 2d8 weapons, he'd need to have powerful build or be >medium as well, since monkey grip technically only works for main hand.
Onikani
12-17-06, 12:27 PM He said he has 4 attacks - which would mean at a minimum

2wf and I2wf.

we also know he's using large sized weapons
monkey grip

Mayeb he's also using oversize weapon fighting (i think its called that) to reduce the penalties in the offhand.

That's 4 feats.
Non human fighter at 9th level would have:
4 from levels.
5 from being a fighter.

We've accounted for 4 out of 9... he's got a ways to go still....

He may be a ranger, a straight ranger woulod have 2wf and imp2wf by level 7 as class feats. Which would leave 4 more feats from levels.
Monkey grip, oversize

So two feats to go...
Kensan_Oni
12-17-06, 01:32 PM Hmm... 3rd Rog/6th Ranger

Weapon Finesse... assume 18 Dex by 9th. Could be as high as 22, but 18 is safe. Assume Str never leaves the 12 range

BAB +8 Melee +12

Weapons: +1 Shocking Rapier,+1 Acidic Light Pick

Attacks: +11/+11/+6/+6

Damage potential: 2d6 + 2d4 + 4d6 + 8d6 = 14d6 + 2d4 + 8 = 42 + 5 + 8 = 55 damage avg. If all hit.

Average Foe at 9th: Frost Giant. AC : 21
Average of hits attack: 55%/55%/30%/30%
Damage over 3 rounds = 3d6 + 3d4 + 6d6 + 12d6 + 12 = 93 damage average.

Now, that is what I would do if I was going the two weapon fighting route.
Kradlo
12-17-06, 02:19 PM Let's see... Human Fighter 9. Just using the Elite array and his level adds, he could have Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. BAB +9/+4. Give him the following feats:

1st Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)
1st Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
1st Two-Weapon Fighting
2nd Monkey Grip
3rd Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
4th Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
6th Quick Draw
6th Improved Toughness
8th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9th Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)

Toss in two Large +2 Flaming Bastard Swords and you have +11/+6 with each sword for 2d8+6+1d6 and 2d8+5+1d6, respectively. Not hard to do.
Magnus_the_Mad
12-17-06, 02:30 PM 9th level you say? One-shot adventure, you say?

They're just begging for some good Tomb of Horrors action.

LOL, but what would he do in there?! What, hang back until one of five possible fights occurs? Hehe, seriously though, my group ran it as a one shot and they all died last night. Got to the very last room and got squished :evillaugh (for those that know the adventure, it was the last trap).
Tyler Do'Urden
12-17-06, 02:33 PM Toss in two Large +2 Flaming Bastard Swords and you......suddenly remember that Monkey Grip doesn't apply to the off hand.

Switch the race to half-giant and move Weapon Focus to 2nd level in place of Monkey Grip.
Krusk
12-17-06, 03:42 PM Y He made a human wielding two large bastard swords with Monkey Grip and Oversized TWF or something...

Might want to point out that on top of dealing average damage. Monkey grip and oversized twf dont stack. meaning he is taking huge penalties with his offhand on attacking and probably his primary one too.

Tell him to switch to weilding two dire picks or something, 1d12 x4 exotic weapons and keep oversized two weapon but ditch monkey grip. Thats probably the best he will do.
buddy4031
12-17-06, 04:43 PM want pure damage? make an ogre skullcrusher half dragon and have him wield a full blade, or two medium great swords. put some enchantments and magical items and that's one barbarian you don't want to mess with.
TheWerg
12-17-06, 06:14 PM 9th level you say? One-shot adventure, you say?

They're just begging for some good Tomb of Horrors action.
You, sir, should be tested for ESP. That is exactly what I am doing.

In response to the others, I got all the info on his build. Human Fighter9 wielding two Large Bastard swords with Oversized TWF and Monkey Grip. He has Str 16, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 13. His other feats are Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) TWF, Improved TWF, Power Attack, Cleave (I think), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), and a couple others. The Bastard swords are +1 Acid and +1 Cold.

I noticed that his off-hand damage was off because of the strength, but I didn't know about the Monkey Grip not working on off-hand and all that jazz. Thanks for telling me. His character will now be even more mediocre than it was previously.
Archmage Atrus
12-17-06, 06:26 PM I would tell him flat out he's just plain making a crappy character, especially if he's proud of the mechanics of it.

I'm not saying you can't make a two-bastard sword wielder. My first 3E fighter was a dual bastard-sword wielder. (That's right! That was BEFORE all these oversized-weapon fightin' feats too! I took my -4 and LIKED IT!) Your player's character's stats are all wrong for it, too. No reason for Dex to be that high, for example. Tell him to focus more on strength, as he'll get a whole lot more gain from it than Dex.

Remember kids, even if you don't like power gaming, 3E/3.5 rewards system mastery. We should all work towards creating an atmosphere where we're all masters of the d20 system, thus easing a lot of headaches later in the campaign. And the only way to do that is by teaching what we know, and correcting the idiots who don't know any better.
TheWerg
12-17-06, 06:31 PM Oh I forgot to mention that he has Gauntlets of Ogre Power, putting his Strength at 18.
Onikani
12-17-06, 07:07 PM Remember kids, even if you don't like power gaming, 3E/3.5 rewards system mastery. We should all work towards creating an atmosphere where we're all masters of the d20 system, thus easing a lot of headaches later in the campaign. And the only way to do that is by teaching what we know, and correcting the idiots who don't know any better.

QFT and sigged.
:)
OneWinged4ngel
12-17-06, 07:18 PM I'm about to run a one-shot, 9th level adventure for my group. One of my players made a character, brought it to school, and was touting its "huge" damage and talking about how effing much damage it does. I looked at it, and it TWFs for 2d8+1d6+7 in primary hand and 2d8+1d6+6 in off hand with attack bonuses of 11/6 in each hand. It doesn't seem like very much. Sorry if I'm off, my group isn't exactly full of optimizers. Don't ask how he came up with his damage and attack bonuses; I know very little about the character. If it's not that much, what should I tell him?

This really isn't that much damage, in all honesty.
revaar
12-17-06, 07:22 PM atrus: the dex needs to be at least 17 for ITWF, so i guess he does have a reason to have a high dex...

but he's still making a sub-par character. it's been show time and time again on these boards that TWF is no where near as effective as power attacking with a THW.

but i say let him play is overwhelming ly average character, then throw in an NPC who does the power attacking angle, just to show him how ineffective he is.

we never learn until we fail after all.
icnivad
12-18-06, 10:46 AM Woah woah waoh. let's back up here.
The question stated wasn't, "How can I build a high damage build." or "Tell me about your super awesome character that made your DM cry." It was, "Should I say anything to this player about his less than optimal character."

Remember, you're the universe and can make the adventure harder or easier depending on your players. The only thing that's important is having fun. That said, I'd let him feel good about his character. D&D is all about being proud of your character, and while the experts and optimizers on these boards can make a build that can do hundreds of damage in a hit, that's not the typical person in your world. Compared to expert character generators, this character can't pump out much damage, but compared to the NPCs in your world, that is quite a bit of damage. Now, it also depends on the rest of the party. If they are all playing frenzied berserkers and whatnot, this character is quickly going to be outshined. But if they are all on par with similar damage, I'd say let him feel good about his build.

Remember, D&D is about having fun.
Kensan_Oni
12-18-06, 11:07 AM I am thinking that our recommendation is that you might want to help him at least get a little bit more damage output. At this point, the cleric will be dealing more damage then him, and that is a mighty disappointment. I'd tell him he doesn't have a bad concept, but there are better ways to go about it, and help him bring his curve up, with his permission, but pointing out a few ways to optimize.

The idea is that you would like him to do a damage that will make people go wow when he happens to roll well. It's the DM's job to see when something might not work the way a player thinks, and let them know. Sometimes, as a DM, you must use the power of yes.
OravennasBrother
12-18-06, 02:43 PM Gee I though you had someone trying to drop a "shrink item" plate of lead on a target. Volume in cubic feet, and lead tips the scales at ~670 lbs per cubic foot. Remember 1d6 per 10 feet per 200 pounds - you get "tons" of damage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheWerg 12-17-06, 02:35 AM	I'm about to run a one-shot, 9th level adventure for my group. One of my players made a character, brought it to school, and was touting its "huge" damage and talking about how effing much damage it does. I looked at it, and it TWFs for 2d8+1d6+7 in primary hand and 2d8+1d6+6 in off hand with attack bonuses of 11/6 in each hand. It doesn't seem like very much. Sorry if I'm off, my group isn't exactly full of optimizers. Don't ask how he came up with his damage and attack bonuses; I know very little about the character. If it's not that much, what should I tell him?
tsuyoshikentsu 12-17-06, 02:45 AM	... Wow. Just... wow. Show him a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian wielding a Fulblade a la Power Attack. For overkill, make it a Warhulk or Frenzied Berserker. That's just off the top of my head -- I'm positive there's better. (This really belongs in the CharOp forums, and I happen to be from there.)
memberZ 12-17-06, 02:51 AM	It's possible but it does hint of slight interpritations of the rules. Without more info it's really hard to say. As a DM it is in your right to make all players submit characters for examination prior to exceptance. Then you can go over their sheets for mistakes. Also It's ok to ask for a PC flow sheet to show by level what class, feat, and skills they took. If not countered with a FB than a wizard or psion (ego whip), as I'd bet his saves and dump stats are low.
TheWerg 12-17-06, 02:59 AM	... Wow. Just... wow. Show him a Whirling Frenzy Barbarian wielding a Fullblade a la Power Attack. For overkill, make it a Warhulk or Frenzied Berserker. That's just off the top of my head -- I'm positive there's better. (This really belongs in the CharOp forums, and I happen to be from there.) Yeah... I really didn't think it was much but in my campaigns they never make very good characters, so I wanted to make sure my assessment was right. He made a human wielding two large bastard swords with Monkey Grip and Oversized TWF or something... Anyone know what his average damage would be? Sorry about the wrong boards thing, but I wasn't sure where this one belonged.
runestar 12-17-06, 03:21 AM	2d8 is 1 step up from 1d10. I believe he should be using monkey grip or powerful build to dual-wield large katanas or bastard swords. The +1d6 could be some sort of elemental damage flag. The static damage bonus seems a tad off - judging by the difference(7 vs 6 in off-hand), it implies that his str score is only 14 max, and the rest probably comes from weapon spec/weapon enhancement bonuses. I wouldn't worry too much about it - to-hit of +11 at lv9 is really very low. I think he will find that he will have a hard time hitting his targets. Nor is his damage really very impressive.
Archmage Atrus 12-17-06, 09:26 AM	You asked, and the average damage he'll be doing is: 2d8 = 9 (4.5x2) 1d6 = 3.5 +7 = +7. So that's 16 + 3.5 (presumably elemental, so it could be resisted.) Yeah, this is seriously average for a 9th level fighter. Consider a two handed weapon stright up fighter: 2d6 (greatsword) = 7 22 strength (easily achievable at 9th) = +9 Weapon spec = +2 Enhancement bonus from weapon = +2 That right there is 20. Admittedly you attack less, but consider that your player is also taking, what, a -6 to his attacks? (-2 for TWF, -2 for using weapons weapons larger than Light, -2 for using oversized weapons.) Assuming the greatsword wielding fighter used Power Attack to achieve the same penalty, his damage bumps up to 32 - which is, in one hit, what your character would have to hit twice for. And I'm not even trying here. Also, you might want to recheck his numbers. Something does, in fact, seem off. He either has a low strength, or he added his attack bonuses totally wrong. There's no way a 9th level character with barely-above-average strength is attackins with a +11 bonus while at the same time taking a -6 penaly to his attacks.
Serrin 12-17-06, 09:51 AM	9th level you say? One-shot adventure, you say? They're just begging for some good Tomb of Horrors action.
Onikani 12-17-06, 10:14 AM	Half orc barbarian. Level 2. Enough point buy to buy an 18 in st and dump everything else. "Power attack" feat at first level. Wield a 2 handed weapon. Rage. Raging st 24. (+7 hit, +10dmg) Power attack for full (+4 dmg) 2d6 (or d12) +14 damage. = average 21 damage. i already win, and i'm second level. That same bararian grows up to 9th level. He spends his 3rd, 6th, and 9th level feats on Skill Focus:noob. and has somehow never managed to find a single magic item anywhere in teh world. But he did add 2 stat points to his strength. Also, he never multiclassed or prestiged, he is simply a Barb9. St 22 Raging str 26 (+8 hit, +12 dmg) Power attack for full (+18) 2d6 (or d12) +30 = average 37 damage. (remember he can do that 2x for a total of 74 damage) Give him a +4 st item (easily available at say, 7th level) and a +3 greatsword (likwise) st 26 Raging st 30 (+10 hit, +15 dmg) Power attack for full +18 Total to hit +10+3= +13 2d6 +3 + 15 + 18 = 2d6 + 36 = average 43 damage. (two attacks = 86 damage) And that is totally basic... I only needed one feat, a core race, and technically a 16 point buy. Adding monkey grip adds an addition d6 to all the damages above, which means you can easily break 50 damage (100 if both hit) and still have +13/+8 to hit. and agin, we're not even tryin. *** EDIT - that d6 damage is probably sneak attack. I'd bet he took level 1 as a rogue to get SA and massive skill points. Which means that in a non SA situation he does 4x(2d8) or 8d8. Which has a lovely average of 36 points plus those odd bonuses 7+7+6+6 =26 (assuming they work out). 36+26 = 62 .... but only if all 4 attacks hit!!!!!
pierow37 12-17-06, 10:17 AM	HA! I had a guy on play an 8th lvl minator barbarian weilding a greatsword, with a powerattack and got a crit.HA! it did like 253 dmg or something in a round. IT WAS CRAZY! So I would tell him that it's not good to brag, and leave it at that. Don't tell him if it's good or not. Thats his opinion.
Aratex 12-17-06, 11:48 AM	A 9th level TWF'er should have at least 3 attacks, unless he did something drastic to drag his BAB down or didn't actually take TWF feats and isn't attacking with his offhand. You definitely need to look his sheet over before you start playing. In order to TWF with 2d8 weapons, he'd need to have powerful build or be >medium as well, since monkey grip technically only works for main hand.
Onikani 12-17-06, 12:27 PM	He said he has 4 attacks - which would mean at a minimum 2wf and I2wf. we also know he's using large sized weapons monkey grip Mayeb he's also using oversize weapon fighting (i think its called that) to reduce the penalties in the offhand. That's 4 feats. Non human fighter at 9th level would have: 4 from levels. 5 from being a fighter. We've accounted for 4 out of 9... he's got a ways to go still.... He may be a ranger, a straight ranger woulod have 2wf and imp2wf by level 7 as class feats. Which would leave 4 more feats from levels. Monkey grip, oversize So two feats to go...
Kensan_Oni 12-17-06, 01:32 PM	Hmm... 3rd Rog/6th Ranger Weapon Finesse... assume 18 Dex by 9th. Could be as high as 22, but 18 is safe. Assume Str never leaves the 12 range BAB +8 Melee +12 Weapons: +1 Shocking Rapier,+1 Acidic Light Pick Attacks: +11/+11/+6/+6 Damage potential: 2d6 + 2d4 + 4d6 + 8d6 = 14d6 + 2d4 + 8 = 42 + 5 + 8 = 55 damage avg. If all hit. Average Foe at 9th: Frost Giant. AC : 21 Average of hits attack: 55%/55%/30%/30% Damage over 3 rounds = 3d6 + 3d4 + 6d6 + 12d6 + 12 = 93 damage average. Now, that is what I would do if I was going the two weapon fighting route.
Kradlo 12-17-06, 02:19 PM	Let's see... Human Fighter 9. Just using the Elite array and his level adds, he could have Str 14, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8. BAB +9/+4. Give him the following feats: 1st Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) 1st Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) 1st Two-Weapon Fighting 2nd Monkey Grip 3rd Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting 4th Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword) 6th Quick Draw 6th Improved Toughness 8th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 9th Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword) Toss in two Large +2 Flaming Bastard Swords and you have +11/+6 with each sword for 2d8+6+1d6 and 2d8+5+1d6, respectively. Not hard to do.
Magnus_the_Mad 12-17-06, 02:30 PM	9th level you say? One-shot adventure, you say? They're just begging for some good Tomb of Horrors action. LOL, but what would he do in there?! What, hang back until one of five possible fights occurs? Hehe, seriously though, my group ran it as a one shot and they all died last night. Got to the very last room and got squished :evillaugh (for those that know the adventure, it was the last trap).
Tyler Do'Urden 12-17-06, 02:33 PM	Toss in two Large +2 Flaming Bastard Swords and you......suddenly remember that Monkey Grip doesn't apply to the off hand. Switch the race to half-giant and move Weapon Focus to 2nd level in place of Monkey Grip.
Krusk 12-17-06, 03:42 PM	Y He made a human wielding two large bastard swords with Monkey Grip and Oversized TWF or something... Might want to point out that on top of dealing average damage. Monkey grip and oversized twf dont stack. meaning he is taking huge penalties with his offhand on attacking and probably his primary one too. Tell him to switch to weilding two dire picks or something, 1d12 x4 exotic weapons and keep oversized two weapon but ditch monkey grip. Thats probably the best he will do.
buddy4031 12-17-06, 04:43 PM	want pure damage? make an ogre skullcrusher half dragon and have him wield a full blade, or two medium great swords. put some enchantments and magical items and that's one barbarian you don't want to mess with.
TheWerg 12-17-06, 06:14 PM	9th level you say? One-shot adventure, you say? They're just begging for some good Tomb of Horrors action. You, sir, should be tested for ESP. That is exactly what I am doing. In response to the others, I got all the info on his build. Human Fighter9 wielding two Large Bastard swords with Oversized TWF and Monkey Grip. He has Str 16, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 13. His other feats are Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword) TWF, Improved TWF, Power Attack, Cleave (I think), Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), and a couple others. The Bastard swords are +1 Acid and +1 Cold. I noticed that his off-hand damage was off because of the strength, but I didn't know about the Monkey Grip not working on off-hand and all that jazz. Thanks for telling me. His character will now be even more mediocre than it was previously.
Archmage Atrus 12-17-06, 06:26 PM	I would tell him flat out he's just plain making a crappy character, especially if he's proud of the mechanics of it. I'm not saying you can't make a two-bastard sword wielder. My first 3E fighter was a dual bastard-sword wielder. (That's right! That was BEFORE all these oversized-weapon fightin' feats too! I took my -4 and LIKED IT!) Your player's character's stats are all wrong for it, too. No reason for Dex to be that high, for example. Tell him to focus more on strength, as he'll get a whole lot more gain from it than Dex. Remember kids, even if you don't like power gaming, 3E/3.5 rewards system mastery. We should all work towards creating an atmosphere where we're all masters of the d20 system, thus easing a lot of headaches later in the campaign. And the only way to do that is by teaching what we know, and correcting the idiots who don't know any better.
TheWerg 12-17-06, 06:31 PM	Oh I forgot to mention that he has Gauntlets of Ogre Power, putting his Strength at 18.
Onikani 12-17-06, 07:07 PM	Remember kids, even if you don't like power gaming, 3E/3.5 rewards system mastery. We should all work towards creating an atmosphere where we're all masters of the d20 system, thus easing a lot of headaches later in the campaign. And the only way to do that is by teaching what we know, and correcting the idiots who don't know any better. QFT and sigged. :)
OneWinged4ngel 12-17-06, 07:18 PM	I'm about to run a one-shot, 9th level adventure for my group. One of my players made a character, brought it to school, and was touting its "huge" damage and talking about how effing much damage it does. I looked at it, and it TWFs for 2d8+1d6+7 in primary hand and 2d8+1d6+6 in off hand with attack bonuses of 11/6 in each hand. It doesn't seem like very much. Sorry if I'm off, my group isn't exactly full of optimizers. Don't ask how he came up with his damage and attack bonuses; I know very little about the character. If it's not that much, what should I tell him? This really isn't that much damage, in all honesty.
revaar 12-17-06, 07:22 PM	atrus: the dex needs to be at least 17 for ITWF, so i guess he does have a reason to have a high dex... but he's still making a sub-par character. it's been show time and time again on these boards that TWF is no where near as effective as power attacking with a THW. but i say let him play is overwhelming ly average character, then throw in an NPC who does the power attacking angle, just to show him how ineffective he is. we never learn until we fail after all.
icnivad 12-18-06, 10:46 AM	Woah woah waoh. let's back up here. The question stated wasn't, "How can I build a high damage build." or "Tell me about your super awesome character that made your DM cry." It was, "Should I say anything to this player about his less than optimal character." Remember, you're the universe and can make the adventure harder or easier depending on your players. The only thing that's important is having fun. That said, I'd let him feel good about his character. D&D is all about being proud of your character, and while the experts and optimizers on these boards can make a build that can do hundreds of damage in a hit, that's not the typical person in your world. Compared to expert character generators, this character can't pump out much damage, but compared to the NPCs in your world, that is quite a bit of damage. Now, it also depends on the rest of the party. If they are all playing frenzied berserkers and whatnot, this character is quickly going to be outshined. But if they are all on par with similar damage, I'd say let him feel good about his build. Remember, D&D is about having fun.
Kensan_Oni 12-18-06, 11:07 AM	I am thinking that our recommendation is that you might want to help him at least get a little bit more damage output. At this point, the cleric will be dealing more damage then him, and that is a mighty disappointment. I'd tell him he doesn't have a bad concept, but there are better ways to go about it, and help him bring his curve up, with his permission, but pointing out a few ways to optimize. The idea is that you would like him to do a damage that will make people go wow when he happens to roll well. It's the DM's job to see when something might not work the way a player thinks, and let them know. Sometimes, as a DM, you must use the power of yes.
OravennasBrother 12-18-06, 02:43 PM	Gee I though you had someone trying to drop a "shrink item" plate of lead on a target. Volume in cubic feet, and lead tips the scales at ~670 lbs per cubic foot. Remember 1d6 per 10 feet per 200 pounds - you get "tons" of damage.