Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The_Wanderer17 11-05-07, 09:02 PM	In the DMG, it says on p. 49-50 that the average adventure should have 15% encounters that are 1-4 ELs higher than the party (very difficult encounters). Meanwhile, said adventure should have 5% encounters that are EL 5+ higher than the party level (overpowering encounters). It clearly states that PCs should flee from overpowering encounters. Should they flee from very difficult ones as well? I designed my campaign assuming the PCs would stay and fight (and defeat) the very difficult encounters. Was that wrong?
CryoSilver 11-05-07, 09:09 PM	A party can probably take an EL+4 encounter, if it's the first or second of the day, but if they're runnin on fumes, they should probably flee. One PC might die, but when I DM, my players usually win in those enoucnters.
Cuindless 11-05-07, 09:36 PM	"Very difficult" is sort of a vague term, but if you think that a challenging encounter (equal CR) should take 20% of the party's resources, then that means a very difficult should take between 50% to 80% of the party's resources, such as spells, hit points, consumables and even PCs. Overwhelming takes 100%. Should the PCs flee a very difficult encounter? It depends on the percentage of resources they have left. If they've already encountered a number of challenging or very difficult encounters, they should definitely flee. If not, they should fight, and probably rest afterward.
LFK 11-06-07, 01:38 AM	Things can go sour fast in a Very difficult encounter. However, note the wide range they're giving. +1 to +4. Personally, +4 is more Overwhelming for most parties. +3 is a boss fight.
Cuindless 11-06-07, 10:15 AM	Things can go sour fast in a Very difficult encounter. However, note the wide range they're giving. +1 to +4. Personally, +4 is more Overwhelming for most parties. +3 is a boss fight. It also depends on the size of the party. 4 against a CR +4 is probably overwhelming, while 6 is a good fight...
Cromag 11-06-07, 10:26 AM	It also depends on the size of the party. 4 against a CR +4 is probably overwhelming, while 6 is a good fight... I usually go by the RPGA information for a party of 6 and raise the EL of the party by 1 ie. 4 level 4 players fighting an even CR =CR4 6 level 4 players fighting an even CR =CR5 You'll want to keep in mind that when you have low level players you can't have as big a variance in the CR as you can with high level players. Also you have to keep in mind what you're having the party fight in relation to their own skill sets. ie. 4 level 1 players versus a level 5 wizard (CR+4) Wizard flies above them, while invisible. Wizard launches a fireball into the party First round everyone dies -second round, if someone lived scorching ray will finish them while he flies safely above --third round Wizard loots the party and goes to the local bar 4 level 12 players will have the hitpoints to survive a sneak attack from most CR 16 creatures and should be able to win, or at the very least escape.
Cifer 11-06-07, 11:42 AM	4 level 12 players will have the hitpoints to survive a sneak attack from most CR 16 creatures and should be able to win, or at the very least escape. That depends entirely on what the creature is designed for. If, for brevity's sake, we take it one level higher (level 13 vs. 17) and use the CR 17 for a full caster, we've got someone with Level 9 Spells, which often are an instant I-Win effect against parties unable to prepare for them. In the same way, fighting a dragon 4 CRs above you is usually suicide since they are under-CR-ed as is. On the other hand side, a flying level 16 party will pretty much walk over the Tarrasque (CR 20) assuming they can get their hands on a Wish spell. CR often varies greatly depending on your PCs' abilities. A party consisting entirely of rogues could probably be entirely wiped out by undead just one EL higher than they are. Finally, remember that by multiplication rules (creatures*2 = EL*2), a party of four fighting against a copy of themselves would be facing a APL+4 encounter - this is going to be decided by tactics and good rolls alone and would otherwise be a simple 50/50 chance that could go either way. EL = party level +1 is usually doable, +2 will drain the ressources, +3 will be damn hard and possibly involving some character deaths and +4 will most likely kill the party. Should they flee from very difficult ones as well? I designed my campaign assuming the PCs would stay and fight (and defeat) the very difficult encounters. Was that wrong? I heavily recommend not building your encounters without looking at your PCs. Can they somehow neutralize or at least mitigate the most damaging attacks of your creatures (fire immune party vs. red dragon without access to another energy type)? Can the creature exploit party weaknesses in overly strong ways (incorporeal undead vs. magic-less party)? All this can make encounters more or less difficult.
StevenO 11-07-07, 07:07 PM	snip Finally, remember that by multiplication rules (creatures*2 = EL*2), a party of four fighting against a copy of themselves would be facing a APL+4 encounter - this is going to be decided by tactics and good rolls alone and would otherwise be a simple 50/50 chance that could go either way. snip. It should be Creatures*2 = EL+2. A standard party fighting there exact clones is actually going to be a little harder than an APL+4 encounter. I think it would be +5 because fighting NPC clones would likely have more wealth than an NPC should normally have and possibly higher ability scores. Also note that if the party has members with a Level Adjustment their "clones" may have a MUCH lower individual CR; an ECL 20 Young Gold Dragon PC would see its clone as only a CR 9 (+1 or 2 for stats/treasure) creature. That may be an extreme case but in most situations a party fighting their clones should expect to lose half the time.