Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kevtar 02-13-08, 09:31 AM	Hi all, I'm interested in running a campaign using "Wealth checks" (i.e. D20 Modern) instead of the treasure system in D&D. I've just thought of this idea and am sure someone else has thought of this long before I have. So, in the interest of not "re-inventing the wheel," can someone tell me if this appears in any of the books, or if someone has posted a similar system that they have used in their games? Thanks in advance.
Chaotic_Hotness 02-13-08, 11:27 AM	I've thought about this too but ultimately it is a bad idea for one reason: Wealth checks work in modern settings because of things like Credit Cards, Bank Loans, Salaries that players generallly dont act out earning and the fact that if cash values were used it would turn into d20 Accounting to keep track of all the money. Wealth checks also are a way to keep players from exploiting the way modern wealth works. In a primitive setting there just isnt that kind of system in place.
Kevtar 02-13-08, 01:26 PM	I've thought about this too but ultimately it is a bad idea for one reason: Wealth checks work in modern settings because of things like Credit Cards, Bank Loans, Salaries that players generallly dont act out earning and the fact that if cash values were used it would turn into d20 Accounting to keep track of all the money. Wealth checks also are a way to keep players from exploiting the way modern wealth works. In a primitive setting there just isnt that kind of system in place. I get what you're saying -- that Wealth Checks incorporate the profession skill and an abstracted economy into the concept, but I also think that there is already a lot of book-keeping and accounting go into D&D. I'd like a way to abstract those elements in the game. My players aren't that great at managing their resources/treasure/etc, and I thought a more abstract system would benefit them... and... I'm bored.
icuall 02-13-08, 01:59 PM	I would not think that you could bring in Wealth Checks from Modern well into D&D. The use of specie is so engrained into D&D. What about gold for spell research? Bribing someone and say "I slip them a gold piece for secret information" What about the Dragon's actual pile of gold and silver treasure? " You get a +3 wealth adjustment" It sort of detracts from the game and sounds quite disappointing for a fantasy setting. However, on the plus side, you could make it work for your game but you would be converting everything all the time. I play Modern as well. We do not use the Wealth System. My PCs, little greedy bastar*s, love to count their money in their accounts. Plus, they like to see how rich they can/will get.
Dan Hemmens 02-13-08, 02:00 PM	A lot of games - pretty much every game that *isn't* D&D in fact - use an abstract system for money instead of tracking every damned copper piece like D&D does. The big problem with instituting such a system in D&D is that your character's wealth is *actually* really big part of their build. Perhaps the most sensible thing to do is to just assume that a PC can always have up to their WBL in gear and can always afford purchases of - say - 10%WBL without much fuss.
Old_School_Overlord 02-13-08, 03:38 PM	Your players are not going to be impressed if the Dragon sleeps on a pile of 3%, non-transferable, 25 year, municipal bonds.
squidyak 02-13-08, 04:58 PM	I loved the wealth rules for D20 modern until I used them. By the book, someone with a wealth modifier of +10 can fail to purchase an item then have his buddy with a wealth of +3 to succeed. So I fixed it. Add every character's wealth modifier to 10 and roll a d20 + (purchase dc-10) to see what it would cost. That way the first character has a wealth score of 20 and the second has a 13. If the purchase roll is 15 then the 20 can purchase it and the 13 cannot, at least not without reducing his wealth score.
UAMDB 02-13-08, 05:08 PM	Your players are not going to be impressed if the Dragon sleeps on a pile of 3%, non-transferable, 25 year, municipal bonds. I would not be impresses either. That is a horrible investment for the dragon. I mean really, you can get a 10yr CD with a better rate than that.
trapspringer 02-13-08, 10:42 PM	Poor investments aside, the wealth system is broken like a ninety-seven year old woman's hip after a motorcycle wreck.
UAMDB 02-14-08, 08:55 AM	Poor investments aside, the wealth system is broken like a ninety-seven year old woman's hip after a motorcycle wreck. That is so true.
Kevtar 02-14-08, 10:02 AM	I see... I've never played Modern - just read the book - so I've never really seen it in action, I just like the idea. I guess I'm a little frustrated with the mindset of buying stuff in D&D. I played 1st & 2nd edition (back in the day), and when we played, we never said, "Well, I'm going to buy a holy avenger." The idea just seemed incredible at best, that such an item would be available on the market. We would buy swords and pay to get them enchanted; a slight difference, but flavor-wise it made sense. We would purchase potions and scrolls, because that seemed believable, but magical items - even the less fantastic items, were things that were to be found after defeating a foe. I know this seems to be the antithesis of my idea of using a wealth system, but even that comes from my frustration with how economy/treasure has been handled in my game. Ultimately, it comes down to me. I guess I just need to redefine the feel of how these items are treated in the game and make adjustments accordingly. Any of you made changes that reduce the "shop" mentality and give treasure the feeling of something "special" and not just goods?
Etarnon 02-14-08, 11:29 AM	Certainly. No magic shops in my game. 1e and 2e didn't have them, as clearly stated in the core rules.
UAMDB 02-14-08, 12:36 PM	I see... I've never played Modern - just read the book - so I've never really seen it in action, I just like the idea. I guess I'm a little frustrated with the mindset of buying stuff in D&D. Any of you made changes that reduce the "shop" mentality and give treasure the feeling of something "special" and not just goods? No but I always hated that aspect of 2nd Ed. My 14th level Ranger with 1 Million gold coins can't buy a +2 Longsword. The only way to get one is to hope I find one in the hoard of the monster I am fighting.
spectralphoenix 02-14-08, 01:24 PM	I see... I've never played Modern - just read the book - so I've never really seen it in action, I just like the idea. I guess I'm a little frustrated with the mindset of buying stuff in D&D. I played 1st & 2nd edition (back in the day), and when we played, we never said, "Well, I'm going to buy a holy avenger." The idea just seemed incredible at best, that such an item would be available on the market. We would buy swords and pay to get them enchanted; a slight difference, but flavor-wise it made sense. We would purchase potions and scrolls, because that seemed believable, but magical items - even the less fantastic items, were things that were to be found after defeating a foe. I know this seems to be the antithesis of my idea of using a wealth system, but even that comes from my frustration with how economy/treasure has been handled in my game. Ultimately, it comes down to me. I guess I just need to redefine the feel of how these items are treated in the game and make adjustments accordingly. Any of you made changes that reduce the "shop" mentality and give treasure the feeling of something "special" and not just goods? I don't really think the wealth system would change that. It would just add an element of randomness to whether or not people could buy a given item. Also, it would bring on the nightstick/DMM apocalypse.
squidyak 02-14-08, 08:13 PM	I don't really think the wealth system would change that. It would just add an element of randomness to whether or not people could buy a given item. Also, it would bring on the nightstick/DMM apocalypse. That's not true. If your wealth score is high enough in comparison to a specific item, you can buy it with no book keeping. In effect, you just buy yourself an ale and don't worry about knocking 2 coppers off your character sheet. If it's expensive enough you have to roll for it, and sometimes have to reduce your wealth level. It works much better than having a standard cost for all items in a fantasy setting, as it can represent not only fluctuating prices but the ability to haggle.
spectralphoenix 02-14-08, 08:47 PM	That's not true. If your wealth score is high enough in comparison to a specific item, you can buy it with no book keeping. In effect, you just buy yourself an ale and don't worry about knocking 2 coppers off your character sheet. If it's expensive enough you have to roll for it, and sometimes have to reduce your wealth level. It works much better than having a standard cost for all items in a fantasy setting, as it can represent not only fluctuating prices but the ability to haggle. It doesn't represent ability to haggle. A 20th level bard with unbelievable CHA and maxxed ranks in Diplomacy and Appraise has exactly the same chance of buying something as his 3 CHA half-orc fighter buddy with no social skills. The main reason it's used in D20 Modern is to allow characters to buy cars without giving them enough cash to buy everything else in the book, as well as to stop accounting issues that generally don't come up in fantasy settings (credit cards, etc.) Also, I wasn't claiming it wouldn't reduce bookkeeping somewhat, the arguement was it would make magic items more "special." And most DMs don't care about copper piece transactions anyway.
Lord_Varos 02-14-08, 08:51 PM	If your wealth score is high enough in comparison to a specific item, you can buy it with no book keeping. Okay, if this is true, then know how you plan to solve this problem. For absolutely no cost, the PCs can carry around dozens-hundreds, even-of Cure Light Wounds potions and never, ever have to worry about healing ever again. Any character with a halfway decent strength score can carry nearly a hundred of these bad boys, and since they're free to buy, the party will never need to fear death from any but the very most deadly encounters. What is your solution?
sblaxman 02-15-08, 04:38 PM	Yeah, I never once ran a campaign with a "magic shop", my hold over from 2E, still refuse to do it, just makes no sense. If your DM is giving you a million GP... well, thats his perogative. Wealth of that sort never really came up for me. You don't sell your old loot (no one beside a king or another adventurer could afford it), you donate it to your underlings. You put your money into you castle. You rebuild the church, etc. I don't have any problem w/ a magic shop exsisting in a campaign setting, just not in mine. Ok, that had nothing to do w/ the OP.. sorry.... Other posters are correct though, in that the system was designed for a different world. If you players are horrid with accounting though, no one says you can't try it. See how it works and report back to us. I didn't work for some of the posters, but maybe it will for you, who knows.
Dan Hemmens 02-15-08, 06:15 PM	Okay, if this is true, then know how you plan to solve this problem. For absolutely no cost, the PCs can carry around dozens-hundreds, even-of Cure Light Wounds potions and never, ever have to worry about healing ever again. Any character with a halfway decent strength score can carry nearly a hundred of these bad boys, and since they're free to buy, the party will never need to fear death from any but the very most deadly encounters. What is your solution? Set a GP limit on perishables carried.
squidyak 02-15-08, 08:26 PM	Okay, if this is true, then know how you plan to solve this problem. For absolutely no cost, the PCs can carry around dozens-hundreds, even-of Cure Light Wounds potions and never, ever have to worry about healing ever again. Any character with a halfway decent strength score can carry nearly a hundred of these bad boys, and since they're free to buy, the party will never need to fear death from any but the very most deadly encounters. What is your solution? My solution is the same one given in the D20 Modern book. No.
squidyak 02-15-08, 08:31 PM	It doesn't represent ability to haggle. A 20th level bard with unbelievable CHA and maxxed ranks in Diplomacy and Appraise has exactly the same chance of buying something as his 3 CHA half-orc fighter buddy with no social skills. The main reason it's used in D20 Modern is to allow characters to buy cars without giving them enough cash to buy everything else in the book, as well as to stop accounting issues that generally don't come up in fantasy settings (credit cards, etc.) Also, I wasn't claiming it wouldn't reduce bookkeeping somewhat, the arguement was it would make magic items more "special." And most DMs don't care about copper piece transactions anyway. Allow opposed diplomacy checks. PC winner reduces cost by 2, NPC winner increases cost by two. Much simpler than adjusting prices in gold pieces. It doesn't allow characters to buy cars without giving enough cash to buy everything else. If you have a high enough score to buy a car, you can pretty much buy all the weapons and ammunition you want to without reducing you wealth at all. Then you buy the car.
spectralphoenix 02-15-08, 10:50 PM	Allow opposed diplomacy checks. PC winner reduces cost by 2, NPC winner increases cost by two. Much simpler than adjusting prices in gold pieces. First of all, that's not part of Wealth RAW. Wealth checks do not facilitate haggling, DM houserules to allow haggling do. It would be just as easy to add/subtract 10%. And it would still arbitrarily give power to diplomatic types. It doesn't allow characters to buy cars without giving enough cash to buy everything else. If you have a high enough score to buy a car, you can pretty much buy all the weapons and ammunition you want to without reducing you wealth at all. Then you buy the car. That's exactly the point. If you had straight amount of cash, no low level party would ever have a car. By allowing wealth checks, they can buy a car and still have enough left over for some other equipment (remember that stuff higher than 14 reduces wealth regardless of your current bonus.)
squidyak 02-16-08, 02:58 PM	That's exactly the point. If you had straight amount of cash, no low level party would ever have a car. By allowing wealth checks, they can buy a car and still have enough left over for some other equipment (remember that stuff higher than 14 reduces wealth regardless of your current bonus.) And why couldn't you do that with a standard monetary amount? If you want to keep accurate track of every dime a character has, use gold pieces. If you just want a vague number that gives an approximation of a character's wealth, use the d20 modern wealth score.
spectralphoenix 02-16-08, 11:13 PM	And why couldn't you do that with a standard monetary amount? If you want to keep accurate track of every dime a character has, use gold pieces. If you just want a vague number that gives an approximation of a character's wealth, use the d20 modern wealth score. Because if they choose not to buy a car, they could purchase every other piece of equipment in the game. Read the designer's thoughts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/bp/20030304a) on why it was implemented for D20 modern. Most of these don't apply for a fantastic setting. Besides, the wealth system requires a roll for every purchase, or at least the expensive ones. At high levels you'd be stuck rolling forever when you want to stock up on consumables. A lttle addition or subtraction isn't nearly as difficult as you're making it out to be.
squidyak 02-17-08, 02:53 PM	Because if they choose not to buy a car, they could purchase every other piece of equipment in the game. Read the designer's thoughts (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/bp/20030304a) on why it was implemented for D20 modern. Most of these don't apply for a fantastic setting. Besides, the wealth system requires a roll for every purchase, or at least the expensive ones. At high levels you'd be stuck rolling forever when you want to stock up on consumables. A lttle addition or subtraction isn't nearly as difficult as you're making it out to be. If they choose not to buy a car with the wealth system the same applies. At high levels you don't get stuck rolling forever for consumables. Consumables are cheap and and don't require a roll. I'm not making addition or subtraction out to be difficult. But it is considerably more bookkeeping than the wealth system. If you don't want to worry about the little stuff and get to the adventure the wealth system is the way to go. If you want the most accurate system, you keep track of each individual gold piece.
Lord_Varos 02-17-08, 02:54 PM	Set a GP limit on perishables carried. That's absurd. Then you're still tracking gp and using the wealth system has not point at all. You've gone from using one decent system (GP) to two conflicting ones (GP and Wealth). I would be very confused if told not to track individual gold pieces since we were going to be using a simple abstraction, and then be told to meticulously track all of the exact gold cost of my limited use items on me. Do we use market price or base cost and do we halve it as though we were selling or use full price? Oh, I spent a charge on my wand, I have to take off 1/50th of 2,250 and- oh, shoot, I'd really like to pick up that Potion of Fire Resistance for the next battle, but I'd have to take a swig of something else to open up my backpack's GP lock, but I'll be danged if I'm wasting that Fly potion if we're fighting more Wyrmlings. Thank you. Thank you for adding another, much-needed layer of bookkeeping to adventuring. I'm tracking weight, speed, container size, money, and my Handy Haversack's GP limit. Thank Ehlonna for outside-the-box thinkers.
spectralphoenix 02-17-08, 08:31 PM	If they choose not to buy a car with the wealth system the same applies. At high levels you don't get stuck rolling forever for consumables. Consumables are cheap and and don't require a roll. I'm not making addition or subtraction out to be difficult. But it is considerably more bookkeeping than the wealth system. If you don't want to worry about the little stuff and get to the adventure the wealth system is the way to go. If you want the most accurate system, you keep track of each individual gold piece. It doesn't apply to nearly the same extent - you take a serious wealth hit if you buy a car, but you can still buy some stuff. Likewise, you're still limited in how many expensive things you can buy otherwise. And items with a purchase price of 15+ always reduce your wealth bonus. And a wealth 25 character loses just as much wealth buying a 25 as a 15.
Dan Hemmens 02-18-08, 07:41 AM	That's absurd. Then you're still tracking gp and using the wealth system has not point at all. I never said to use the wealth system. If you look upthread, my suggestion was just to assume that PCs can have gear equal to their WBL. Tack on a bit extra for potions and you're sorted.