Post/Author/DateTime	Post
srkingdavy 06-23-05, 08:46 PM	The wizened mage regards you with grave concern. "You must return here with the seven crystal shards within a fortnight or the world is doomed!" "oh... uh, can you come with us? or why don't you do it yourself? you're a 23rd level wizard and we're an 8th level party." "I have... other things to attend to." "more important than saving the world?" "...yes." "well can you at least give us your staff of the magi?" "no... it has sentimental value to me." This is the situation that seems to come up more often than I'd like to mention... any ideas?
SwitchUK 06-23-05, 08:57 PM	"Because I've had my glory. I'm old, and tired, and though I am powerful, I'm not as young as I used to be, and these old bones just aren't up to a life of adventuring any longer. It's time for a younger generation to take the reins, that is the way of things, as it has always been. If we cannot entrust you young ones to do the job just as well as my generation has, then what hope does the future of this world have? I will not be around forever, and in time these lands will need new, strong souls to carve their names in history. I have chosen to groom YOU for that role... and you can either get on with it, or else I'll turn you all into newts and give the job to somebody with less brains!" That last said in an amused tone of voice, possibly ending in a smoker's cough. And as for the "staff of the magi" thing - there's an excellent line, here: "You would not part an old man from his walking stick?" or, better: "The entire point, young man/lady, is that you should be forging your own destiny, acquiring your own reputation and power on merit as a result of your own deeds. If I just hand out powerful magical assistance at every turn, then how can I expect you to learn for yourselves? No, come back AFTER you've acquired the crystals and then, maybe, you'll have earned the right to bear this staff..."
Syn of Aspia 06-23-05, 08:58 PM	Hm...mind you I'm not experienced in high-level D&D so these are rather generic explanations. If there's some spell that could solve one of these, ignore it *g* -The goal is guarded well and such a powerful presence would be detected easily and overwhelmed. A group of 'unimportant' adventurers might be able to sneak through. It's not really a satisfying explanation but it's enough IMO. -The powerful wizard is well known among his enemies and is being monitored. Sneaking through instructions to the players might still be possible, though. -Simply enough, the goal is only one piece of the puzzle. The wizard has only so many, erm, hands, and will get the rest while the party does it's part. -The goal cannot be reached by conventional means. The wizard opens a portal near it but can't follow through himself. Lots of possibilities, really.
Alynn 06-23-05, 08:58 PM	It's all about how you present the quests... Sure the council of priests could take the 16 level 16-20 clerics and go do everything themselves, but then who would run the council? The wizard has a wizards meeting to go to, why no staff of the magi? I paid the money and the exp for it (not saying you should say that, just stating this could be motivation) It was my gold and my power I used to make it, I won't just give it to you... Never make it about saving the world, at least not at first, or just... "Ok, Ok, I lied, it's not doomed, but my cousins birthday is soon, and I really wanted to give him a neat-o gift." "It is none of your concern why I am not going myself, if you do not wish the payment and reward, I will simply find a group with more intestinal fortitude to complete the task."
srkingdavy 06-23-05, 09:04 PM	hmm, some good explanations... keep in mind the "old wizard wants you to save the world" is just an example of a bigger problem with adventure hooks: that of "why don't you do it yourself if this is so damned important"
alecthemad 06-23-05, 09:13 PM	I usually have some other problem which the High level NPC(s) must resolve. e.g. High level NPC: You must go disrupt the ceremony or we are all doomed. PC: Damn, you are epic level man. I just watched you beat up an iron golem for your morning exercise. Why in the nine hells don't you stop the ceremony. HLNPC: Well, I could stop the ceremony or I could go hold off the demon horde that wishes for the ceremony to continue. Which would you like for me to do? PC: *waves* can't talk, got a ceremony to stop. *walks off* Alternately, use other methods to draw the players and their characters into the situation. If they have a favorite place or person maybe they get attacked. The best hooks do not involve high level NPCs. Or if you want to save time you just tell your players during character creation: you must have a reason to work together to save this village. A lot of players don't seem to mind and it saves you a lot of heartache.
ServantOfTheLordYawgmoth 06-23-05, 09:14 PM	I prefer to have the guy giving the quest simply be unable to complete it himself. There are NPCs that can realistically have access to the information necessary to send the PCs on a quest, but without the power to do anything about it. My personal favorite would be a librarian. My last campaign, the PCs were helping out a king (not as impressive as it sounds, he was one of those sorts of kings that has a throne but not much else, in other words, no power). Unfortunately, the king was murdered by the BBEG (whom they'd run into in the past), and so who was left to coordinate the world-saving business? The good old royal librarian. In my current campaign, the answer is much simpler. It is basically as follows. "So why don't you do it yourself?" "I'm the king of a rather major continent. You don't think someone would notice if I went missing for a few months? Also, the guy you need to work with, umm... we have some 'history.'"
The Shaman 06-24-05, 01:32 PM	"well can you at least give us your staff of the magi?"Players metagaming a bit? :P He can't for the same reason that Gandalf can't take the Ring, hop on Gwaihir, and drop it in Mount Doom - 'cause then an epic saga would be a short story. ;) Some excellent reasons have been given already - to these I would add, the wizard is simultaneously battling a related (or unrelated) evil on another plane of existence, or has been prohibited by a deity from intervening directly.
astute1 06-24-05, 01:35 PM	That's one of the reasons I don't run Epic style quests at low levels. At low levels, the PC's are being hired to clear out goblins by commoners, or recover pricey baubles by jaded aristocrats. At high levels, sure, save the world - but at low levels, the best you can do is save a village.
Bartleby_GoC 06-24-05, 01:36 PM	This question comes up on a regular basis in my games. The response varies by party. The current group is VERY greedy so the usual response is something like, "Well, I could, but it would be easier for me to pay someone else to do the work. If you're not interested in the job, there's plenty of impoverished adventurers. Most appear to be more competant." They either take it or not. If they don't, the adventure goes back into the file for use later. If they do, problem solved. For other parties, you could have the NPC have something more important to do. The example of the demons and stopping the ceremony is great. The party is being paid for the easy, though vital, task while the powerful NPC deals with difficult things (like demons, wars, crumbling planar barriers, raising the child king, etc.). The suggestion that the NPC is too well known is good too. An elven spymaster would be noticed quickly in a 99% human or dwarf area. A party of humans or dwarves would blend in. Whatever the choice, don't put yourself in a position where you have to make the party accept the mission. Your job is to get the characters to the point where they have to do it to play the characters correctly. I recently railroaded the party into storming a palace to kill an ursurper by having the deposed ruler ask a loyal party member to help. She didn't even ask if they would be paid (though they will be). Offer the party stuff their characters would want and they'll go for it. Always have a back-up in case they turn down the first offer (or first six with my group ;) ). Bartleby
Phrennzy 06-24-05, 01:40 PM	The wizened mage regards you with grave concern. "You must return here with the seven crystal shards within a fortnight or the world is doomed!" "oh... uh, can you come with us? or why don't you do it yourself? you're a 23rd level wizard and we're an 8th level party." "Hmm...you're right, I think I will!" (teleports away, leaving the adventurers sitting in the pub alone. With no adventure.) So after he teleports away, just stare at the players and ask, "Okay, what do you do now." See how often they ask that question when they keep missing out on adventures. And experience. And levels...
Gedrin 06-24-05, 01:48 PM	To be honest, when you're out saving the world, it's time for the big dogs to get off the portch and lend a hand. That's one good reason not to have 8th level characters running around trying to save the world. That and when they show up on the Evil Radar, it takes about a minute for the Litch King to find, teleport to, kill the whole party, and return home. If the PC's are doing a job for someone else, in my campaign, it's normally because either that person doesn't have the time, the ability to do the job, or they don't want it known that they are involved. The higher the priority of a job, the less likely it is to be farmed out to mercs. A lot of the higher level characters in my campaign have hefty responsibilities that they are personally involved with. They frequently have many friends and loyal followers as well. Often, the players take on the roll of these loyal friends and followers, and thus can be entrusted with vital missions. The Duke may be high level, but he's busy. Same for the Lord High Magister. High level characters that haven't taken on some sort of greater responsibility are rare in my world, and those who exist have normally chosen to avoid that responsibility in order to pursue their own agendas personally.
Andrew_980 06-24-05, 01:53 PM	Handle it like the Raymond e Feist books, the big guys handle the biggest stuff but their is still important things that must be done by the little guys, such as in Rise of a Merchant Prince, where a young mans dreams of being rich gives him the power to fund a war to save the world
CzarGarrett 06-24-05, 02:06 PM	I often use a cold war or mafia scenario. That Level 23 Wizard with all kinds of uber stuff- he's got his home decked out to repel invaders. Traps, contingency spells, guards, the works. When he leaves that place, his guard is lessened. No longer will an assassin have to bypass half a dozen traps and 10 spells just to reach the wizard. Why risk the attack? Its the same idea that happens when a mafia (or gang) war is brewing. Leaders stay back in the shadows under protection, otherwise, they become much easier targets. And in a Cold War scenario- the US and USSR both knew that the other had operatives in place, doing stuff. Best case scenario, they'd send out an opposing set of operatives. If they openly moved against one another, all Hell would break out. Its kinda why someone like Elminister out of FR doesn't go around with an adventuring party and try to take out every Thayan enclave. Instead, he sends Harpers and other agents to do it for him, just like the Thayans send out operatives to balk the works of the Harpers and other 'goodly aligned' organizations.
Ourph the Mingol 06-24-05, 02:07 PM	"Hmm...you're right, I think I will!" (teleports away, leaving the adventurers sitting in the pub alone. With no adventure.) So after he teleports away, just stare at the players and ask, "Okay, what do you do now." See how often they ask that question when they keep missing out on adventures. And experience. And levels... As a player, presented with a lame plot hook like this, I'd be more than happy with this outcome. The question is, would the DM be happy when I said, "Cool, now we can do X, Y and Z, which is what we wanted to do in the first place!"? Especially if the DM wasn't prepared to run an adventure where the PCs do X, Y and Z. My recommendation, stop creating campaigns around lame plot hooks.
kaldrin 06-24-05, 02:20 PM	hmm, some good explanations... keep in mind the "old wizard wants you to save the world" is just an example of a bigger problem with adventure hooks: that of "why don't you do it yourself if this is so damned important" I'm a little wary of the scope of it myself. At 8th level I'd be expecting a party to avert a major event, but not one which would destroy the world. I would suggest painting things as a lesser event and let the players find out slowly how encompassing such an event would change the world. Perhaps it would be the first step in an evil power ruling the world. Regarding the staff, I would follow the previous suggestion of 'not until you prove yourselves worthy'. Or you could hand it over and they find out it's really only a piece of wood. The wizard has long ago absorbed it's power into himself.
Arrowhen 06-24-05, 03:05 PM	his is the situation that seems to come up more often than I'd like to mention... any ideas? Stop having 23rd level wizards handing out quests? Seriously, how often do high level PCs hand out quests to low/mid level NPCs? Why should NPCs be any different?
MrkGrismer 06-24-05, 03:51 PM	This is why I don't hand out quests.
snowlynx 06-24-05, 05:09 PM	"oh... uh, can you come with us? or why don't you do it yourself? you're a 23rd level wizard and we're an 8th level party." "I have... other things to attend to." "more important than saving the world?" Sorry, I have to agree with the PCs. Is there some reason the wizard wouldn't want to do it himself? Apparently he lives on the world, and cares about it enough to hire adventurers. I can think of many reasons the wizard might not want to do it himself; the one that stands out most in my mind is that the wizard has ulterior motives (sadistic, wants the PCs to prove themselves for the next, harder task, the items the PCs are gathering kill the person that releases the seal on them, etc.) Most of them are not in the PC's favor. Valid reasons why a high level wizard might hire a low level adventuring party: The object is of minor importantce to the wizard, so he wants hirelings to do the task for him (and pays in gold.) The wizard cannot do the mission himself because he has sowrn some sort of oath not to go on a certain persons land or not to interfere, but sees no harm in interfering directly. The wizard is currently devoting all of his power to sealing some powerful evil artifact, and cannot cast spells. Regardless, the above presume you've thought up a reasonable setup. You can't just come up with a convienient 'excuse' for why the characters should be going on the mission when there's someone more capable and just as available. Your characters seem to be questioning the logistics of the world they live in, which means they're looking for explanations...this is not a bad thing.
Elendur 06-24-05, 05:32 PM	This is one of the problems inherent with high level NPC's. Either they don't do anything and the PC's wonder why, or the DO do everything and the PCs are left playing second fiddle. I generally keep higher level NPCs away from the adventure. There's no reason the aforementioned quest can't be given by a sage or low level holy man.
Lyinginbedmon 06-24-05, 05:48 PM	My current gaming group is essentially working for my first character (Level 68 Wizard), who gives them quests etc. to supplement the rent on his house (As odd as that may sound). Though it has come up on more than one occasion, the answer for me is that they do it because he says so and they don't want to be capable of licking the inside of their own heart while still breathing... To note, this Wizard isn't evil, but he does have a bad temper
SwitchUK 06-24-05, 09:59 PM	I must say - although I like the "passing the torch along" idea the most (hell, I wrote it) I have to agree on one point - in most cases, an epic-level character really shouldn't be handing out quests to parties that he personally could take out with a single spell, saving throws or no. If you need to have an NPC handing out quests, come up with a good reason, and be VERY certain that you don't make them so powerful that they could wrap the whole thing up themselves within five minutes. In short, avoid making an NPC an epic evel character if at all possible, with maybe one or two exceptional exceptions. The major evil mastermind in my campaign, for instance, is a level 10 gestalt aristocrat/sorceror with a major red dragon bloodline. He'll increase in power and levels so as to perpetually stay ahead of the PC's, but the point is, I didn't create him incredibly uber-potent from the word go. He could still quite easily take out the entire party unaided, mind you - among other things, he's wearing a +3 breastplate with the additional magical property of having an arcane spell failure chance of 0%, and is carrying a +5 rapier of speed, but the point is, he's not so utterly potent that he'd be better of doing things solo as opposed to hiring people to do his work for him. And yes, I know that's a lot of very potent gear for a level 10 character, but he's the son of a prestigious and powerful noble family, the direct descendent of a powerful red dragon. Not only is he lawful evil, he's in a very powerful and influential position.
Owatkiam 06-24-05, 10:12 PM	Erm... the PCs have to go get the shards because while they are doing that, the Wizard is going to be going off to do something even more dangerous. He's going to go get the statue cast into the plane of fire 1000 years ago that the shards fit into so that he can use the complete artifact as a focus to cast the spell that will prevent the grand conjunction from happening and thus keep the world from being rent apart by armies of fiends intent on fighting the Blood War on the material plane. In short, just take a page from Tolkien, when Gandalf needed to not be in the Hobbit, Tolkien sent him off to the tower of the necromancer to deal with serious evil. Rule #1 of DMing... saving the world should be a rare event. Even then, it should be more like saving the kingdom at most. Players get tired quickly of the old save the world, rescue the princess plot time after time.
rbingham2000 06-24-05, 11:55 PM	I'm working on a story that has just such an approach -- a powerful sorcerer has a spell go horribly wrong (due to ignoring the "rules of magic") and gets the local prince turned into a monster. When the king finds out, he is absolutely furious, and orders the sorcerer to find a way to change him back, or it's off with his head! The journey to find the means to turn the prince back to normal is dangerous as hell and something he's getting too old for, so he does what many such old sorcerers do in stories like this -- he thrusts the responsibility for the journey upon his young apprentice. But while the apprentice and a couple of his buddies are carrying out their quest, the sorcerer isn't resting on his laurels and doing nothing -- he's leading a party of warriors on their own quest to capture the monster in order to keep it from doing more harm to the kingdom, to keep the townsfolk from banding together and killing it themselves, and to save the apprentice the trouble of tracking it down upon his return.
Mirikon 06-25-05, 12:27 AM	"You must learn the ways of the Force, if you are to accompany me to Alderaan." "But I'm not going to Alderaan. I've got work to do. I'm in enough trouble as it is." "I'm getting too old for this kind of thing. I need your help. She needs your help." Yes, I know I probably bastardized the lines, but you get the idea. Another option is to do like a DM I played for once used the NPC who sent us on the mission to scout out 'rumors' she had heard from that area. She couldn't go herself, as, being a powerful wizard, it would draw too much attention, and the baddies would close up shop, and relocate, before she could stop them. Kindof the same reason why, although Professor X could mindrape every last one of the Brotherhood of Mutants, from his living room, while sipping a cup of tea, he sends the X-men to do the fighting.
R-man 06-25-05, 05:02 AM	Having come up against this when playing more times then I care to count I am very careful when DMing to always remember to answer the question at least just for myself "So what is everyone else doing about this?". There are many answers to it ranging from "Because I and my allies will be holding back the Demon hoards while you complete the quest" to "Because I am busy and its a better use of my time to simply hire adventurers" It all depends on the situation and the campaign storyline. You as the DM should always be aware of what aid if any the Patron is willing and able to give if that is the type of storyline that you are running. Of course my favourite that I came across is "Um, guys I actually didn't think that through and I can't think of any reason he needs you. Any ideas?" Our group immediately came up with at least six good ideas and a couple of really silly ones. None of which I can remember right now, but we all had a good laugh about it.
Derren S. 06-25-05, 05:21 AM	Thats why FR is so unlogical. There is always someone better suited for the task than the PCs there as the place is crawling with Lvl 13+ NPCs. To keep them all occupied there must be more world domination/destruction plots going on at the same time than ever published in all Marvel comics counted together.
Gyrofthewastes 06-25-05, 05:44 AM	Heh. How about this: The wizened mage regards you with grave concern. "You must return here with the seven crystal shards within a fortnight or the world is doomed!" "oh... uh, can you come with us? or why don't you do it yourself? you're a 23rd level wizard and we're an 8th level party." "I have... other things to attend to." "more important than saving the world?" The wizard leans close with a sad, world-weary look and whispers "There are far greater things than this little realm. And greater forces that threaten them."
Derren S. 06-25-05, 07:18 AM	Yawn, there is always a greater evil than the one you are fighting etc. Sounds like DBZ, doesn't it?
Eliza_Stormwhisper 06-25-05, 08:51 AM	I had an adventuring party that was 8th-11th level running around doing things for a 35th-level mage. To be honest, the mage was so old (71, and was human) she just wasn't suited for the job. Her physical ability scores had dropped to Strength 5, Dexterity 6, and Constitution 5. Her hit point total had dropped to a mere 43. Any physically weaker and she would have to be in the medieval equivilant of a wheelchair. I even described her tower as having lots of magical help (such as unseen servants) to help her get things done, as she was nowhere near being able to do it herself. The way events unfolded, anyway, is the the PC's, with the exception of this 35th-level mage (Joanna), were the highest-level characters left in the world. The campaign was a typical epic saga campaign that did involve the PC's saving the world, with the finale involving Bahamut vs. Tiamat. Tiamat killed Bahamut, and the PC's got to finish of Tiamat. Call it lame, call it cheesy, but you weren't in the group. My players had described it as "awesome" and "a blast." To each their own, really.
Palin the Wizard 06-25-05, 08:57 AM	Thats why FR is so unlogical. There is always someone better suited for the task than the PCs there as the place is crawling with Lvl 13+ NPCs. To keep them all occupied there must be more world domination/destruction plots going on at the same time than ever published in all Marvel comics counted together. Which is why I had, in a current FR campaign, most of the NPCs above 13th level killed. Yes, even Elminster.
Derren S. 06-25-05, 09:34 AM	That must have been a major hit on the population of Faerun. I had an adventuring party that was 8th-11th level running around doing things for a 35th-level mage. To be honest, the mage was so old (71, and was human) she just wasn't suited for the job. Her physical ability scores had dropped to Strength 5, Dexterity 6, and Constitution 5. Her hit point total had dropped to a mere 43. Any physically weaker and she would have to be in the medieval equivilant of a wheelchair. I even described her tower as having lots of magical help (such as unseen servants) to help her get things done, as she was nowhere near being able to do it herself. The way events unfolded, anyway, is the the PC's, with the exception of this 35th-level mage (Joanna), were the highest-level characters left in the world. The campaign was a typical epic saga campaign that did involve the PC's saving the world, with the finale involving Bahamut vs. Tiamat. Tiamat killed Bahamut, and the PC's got to finish of Tiamat. Call it lame, call it cheesy, but you weren't in the group. My players had described it as "awesome" and "a blast." To each their own, really. Why didn' the wizard just send one or two Simulacrum of her to do the job? The Simulacrum would be lvl 21, a lot stronger than a lvl 8-11 group. And when the wizard was epic she could have used Eidolon for even stronger clones. Not to mention some basic stat raising spells.
Roxlimn 06-25-05, 09:51 AM	"Because I asked you nicely. I could use Quest or Geas, but I would much rather not have to, and people who aren't under spell duress really are usually that much more reliable. I'm asking you to do this task for me, but I'm not really asking, if you know what I mean."
Ut-Napishtim 06-25-05, 10:12 AM	Well, these points have already been covered, but I'll go ahead and throw in my two cents since posters like to know someone agrees with them. The answer is really simple: 1. Don't have 23rd level NPC's. IIRC the highest level Wizard you can roll in a metropolis is like 16th level. Rather than peppering the world with epic level 'Elminsters' try going by the guidelines in the DMG. Seriously, players usually don't like being bullied and bossed around by uberNPC's anyway and probably won't miss them. Plus you don't have to waste your cash on the Epic Level Handbook. 2. PC's shouldn't be saving the world at 8th level. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing gamble for an exiting campaign. There are lots of things the heroes could save - cities, towns, families, maybe even countries. Genocide has been a pretty big issue over the last century, maybe they could even save a dwindling race or creature from extinction.
Mirikon 06-25-05, 10:33 AM	Thats why FR is so unlogical. There is always someone better suited for the task than the PCs there as the place is crawling with Lvl 13+ NPCs. To keep them all occupied there must be more world domination/destruction plots going on at the same time than ever published in all Marvel comics counted together. Because all the level 13+ NPCs are busy fighting their own battles, against the lvl 13+ BBEGs that are trying to conquer the world/planes/multiverse. Sure, Elminster could wipe out the Vampire lord with a single spell. But is his time better spent travelling to the vampire's lair and casting said spell, or keeping the forces of the abyss from completing their next epic scheme for the destruction of toril, or halting the Illithids in their scheme to ressurect/create the Illithid Empire.
Derren S. 06-25-05, 12:27 PM	Maybe Elminster is too busy, but what about all of his epic friends, their lvl 20 underlings and apprentices and not to forget the numerous Lvl 15-20 NPCs from various governments and militaries. Then there are those lvl 13+ "misc" NPCs like spies, milita captains, scribes etc. And when even they are occupied, the 10th level retired adventurer tavern owner at every corner can defend their city/country/world.
WorldofArdoniaGM 06-25-05, 02:54 PM	Which is why I had, in a current FR campaign, most of the NPCs above 13th level killed. Yes, even Elminster. The curiosity is killing me. How did you kill Elminster? I've always hated that guy.
Derren S. 06-25-05, 02:56 PM	Probably with the almighty "Finger of the DM"
Owatkiam 06-25-05, 04:28 PM	The references to FR brings up an interesting point... You probably shouldn't be sending PCs on a quest to save the world if they are below the level of most significant NPCs. In FR, PCs less than 10th level simply should not be sent on Save The World quests! As I recall, FR has inn keepers who are 7th-8th level on occasion, so sending a bunch of PCs on a quest is silly. That doesn't mean that the PCs can't save the world...just that any such adventure would like start off with "go check this out for me, I'm busy" or start off as a seemingly random encounter. If its is truly save the world, seriously, Elminster or Khelban is a little more likely to go round up some Harpers, no? If the DM is running an FR world, then they should keep that in mind when they come up with quests... this kind of set up just doesn't work from a story continuity standpoint until the characters are elite, not just average.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-25-05, 05:08 PM	"Because I asked you nicely. I could use Quest or Geas, but I would much rather not have to, and people who aren't under spell duress really are usually that much more reliable. I'm asking you to do this task for me, but I'm not really asking, if you know what I mean." That's when I tear up my character sheet, throw it in the DM's face, and tell him that I don't play D&D to be his personal [female dog].
Mirikon 06-25-05, 07:22 PM	Maybe Elminster is too busy, but what about all of his epic friends, their lvl 20 underlings and apprentices and not to forget the numerous Lvl 15-20 NPCs from various governments and militaries. Then there are those lvl 13+ "misc" NPCs like spies, milita captains, scribes etc. And when even they are occupied, the 10th level retired adventurer tavern owner at every corner can defend their city/country/world. Refer to my thing earlier. Sending the higher level (and thus, more well known) adventurers to do the task will bring too much attention, and may force the BBEG to shift his plans. The PCs, however, are unknowns, able to 'slip under the radar' as it were.
High Octane 06-25-05, 08:35 PM	I once had a fair level NPC wizard (7 or 9) ask a task of some 1st or 2nd level characters (I forget which). They had to go to his home which some goblins had sacked and bring back a magic lantern (Nothing too special, it just flew and had a continual flame spell onthe inside and was animated) They asked why he didnt do it himself and I HAD a prepared answer. "I have a backlog of magic items to create for MANY clients and am already behind on my work. I dont have the time. Do you want the job or not?"
Bane 06-25-05, 09:03 PM	The wizened mage regards you with grave concern. "You must return here with the seven crystal shards within a fortnight or the world is doomed!" "oh... uh, can you come with us? or why don't you do it yourself? you're a 23rd level wizard and we're an 8th level party." "I have... other things to attend to." "more important than saving the world?" "Do you want to save your world? I can watch the apocalypse from my summer home in Sigil. If you like, I can send you on a quest to buy some popcorn for me instead."
clarkvalentine 06-25-05, 09:20 PM	The wizened mage regards you with grave concern. "You must return here with the seven crystal shards within a fortnight or the world is doomed!" "oh... uh, can you come with us? or why don't you do it yourself? you're a 23rd level wizard and we're an 8th level party." "Well, if you like I can do that and you can take on my task which is confronting the great wyrm Cathoogienax before he can breach the Ninth Cricle of Hell. Yeah, I thought not. Look, I know I'm sending you guys off to play in the Junior Varsity game while I take on the big leaguers, but the enemy is moving on many fronts, and we have to win BOTH games or we're all completely hosed."
High Octane 06-25-05, 09:38 PM	"Its beneath me."
SwitchUK 06-25-05, 09:48 PM	PC: "Do it yourself!" NPC wizard: *BALEFUL POLYMORPH* PC: "ribbit." NPCW: "now, hop along and do what you've been told..."
Roxlimn 06-26-05, 12:46 AM	Count Arioch the 28th: That's when I tear up my character sheet, throw it in the DM's face, and tell him that I don't play D&D to be his personal [female dog]. And that's when you get banned from my games forever. NPCs can evil manipulative sons of female dogs. Your PC can be, too. I don't take it personally. Players shouldn't, either. This behavior is completely unacceptable and insultingly juvenile. If you don't like the campaign flavor, I'd much rather prefer that you thank me for inviting you into my home for a game and some snacks and politely ask to be excused from the campaign. If I ask you to come over to play PS2 and you like none of my game selection, would you throw my DVDs in my face as well?!?!? The nerve!
Arkonth 06-26-05, 01:03 AM	My group's DM makes it a point to derive quests from our enemies. Rather than our helpful wizard friend, instead we get mocked by demons, who need us to fulfill some prophecy for them, which unfortunately we often do with good intentions. On the other hand this method may just be a result of our DM's particularly twisted mind. You ahve no idea how annoying it is to save a city from eternal shadows, only to raise a demon to ascendant power in the process.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-26-05, 02:15 AM	And that's when you get banned from my games forever. Can't ban me when I've quit. And you'll find that I have no shortage of nerve. If I think the DM's using the game as his own personal power trip, I have no shame in walking out and inviting the DM to have sexual intercourse with himself. I play to have fun. If I'm not having fun, I'll find something else to do.
Roxlimn 06-26-05, 02:52 AM	Count Arioch the 28th: It seems, though, that you have a huge shortage of manners. You're right. You have no shame. I have no problems with people quitting from my games. I have no problems with them finding something else to do. What I have problems with is people behaving in a brutish barbaric fashion when I had the graciousness to invite them into my home to play a game I spent time and effort on, whether or not they found the game engaging or not. Settlers may or may not be your cup of tea, but if I did serve you tea and cookies, I believe I'm entitled to at least some measure of gratitude, even if you don't like that game. This goes beyond just DMing and into gaming manners. If you don't like the game, politely excuse yourself and leave. There's absolutely no excuse for rude behavior. This is true outside the gaming circle as well. Frankly, I'm ashamed the game includes people who have the nerve to insult a person who served them snacks and drinks after having invited them into the sanctity of their home. If you're going to behave that way, you'll find you'll quickly have a shortage not only of gaming buddies, but of buddies, period. It's even self-destructive. Rude people have a much lower chance of climbing the ladder of success than polite people. I strongly advise those of you who are younger not to emulate boorish behavior, wherever you may find it.
Cymraegmorgan 06-26-05, 03:17 AM	Count Arioch the 28th: It seems, though, that you have a huge shortage of manners. You're right. You have no shame. I have no problems with people quitting from my games. I have no problems with them finding something else to do. What I have problems with is people behaving in a brutish barbaric fashion when I had the graciousness to invite them into my home to play a game I spent time and effort on, whether or not they found the game engaging or not. I do not think Arioch's reaction has so much to do with rudeness, but rather with an intolerance(an intolerance I share) for lame underintellectualized railroading. The old NPC "because I said so, or else.." ploy is an insult to the players. As a DM, I know my players expect better out of me. If you invite players into your home to play the game, would you serve them mouldy food? Of course not, then why should you not also strive to serve up the best of adventures, ones that do not involve railroading.
Count Arioch the 28th 06-26-05, 04:51 AM	Cymie has it right. (Note that I mean no disrespect by calling you that, it's just that if I try to spell your name, I'm probably going to spell it wrong. :P ) For the record, I've never had a DM serve me anything. Most of the DM's I've played with have insisted that the players bring their own food, or help pay for the food the DM is serving. The way I look at it, since I'm buying, it's my damn food, not his. (Note that the one and only time I've ever been served food by the DM, I bit my tongue when his DMing sucked royally. I never played with him again though.)
Roxlimn 06-26-05, 05:40 AM	Fair enough. It's a misunderstanding. For what it's worth, I serve food and drinks to my players when we hold sessions at my home. It's the least I would do for any of my guests, whether they arrived to play or for some other business. Having said that, I've had no problems with PCs leaving because the NPC handing them the lead is boorish, condescending, hardballing, or whatever. Just because the NPC is hardballing you is no reason to accept the quest. Of course, it may not be wise to say so right to his face, especially if he's powerful enough to kick your collective PC's assess, but when you're out of his power, it's quite another thing altogether. Supposedly good NPCs who blackball, blackmail, hardball, or otherwise coerce PCs into doing what seems to be tasks for the good of the many strike me as a kind of color and depth that many players might be well justified to give a chance to. Why exactly is that Mage unwilling to undertake a quest that seems easy enough for him? Why hire us to do it? Even more sinister, why is he compelling us to do so? Isn't he supposed to be this goody-two-shoes Mayor? Clearly, something is up. I suppose it's a testament to my players that they're willing to accept that the NPCs of my world speak only for themselves, not for the DM. Indeed, I dislike many of the NPCs that populate my world from a moral standpoint.
Turin 06-26-05, 11:34 AM	The OP's problem is exactly why I really like the Eberron campaign setting, actually. These uber-high level NPCs just don't exist, and where they do, they're often the bad guys. Nothing gets my goat more than when the NPCs are the genuine heros and the PCs are the sidekicks. An example: In an FR campaign one of the DMs in our group ran a while back, we (10th-level-ish) were tasked to go after a dracolich's phylactery as part as a move by the Forces of Good against the Cult of the Dragon. What about the dracolich? Oh, don't worry... this group of epic level NPCs will take care of that. And after our harrowing battle is complete and the phylactery shattered? Oh, well, don't feel too good about yourself because now you get to witness these L33T NPCs kick some real butt. :pbbbtt: (No offense to that DM if he reads this, most of the rest of that campaign was awesome... that adventure always bugged me because of that.) In any event, in the Eberron setting, the PCs have to be the heros, because there isn't anyone else to get the job done. They are in way over their heads, often (just take a look at the difficulty of some of the modules!) but that's what makes the PCs special. The Forces of Evil are so numerous and powerful (although often a "slumbering power") that the actions of a few heros can really make a difference. In my current campaign, the PCs are caught up in a storyline where different factions are all fighting over the fate of one girl with a special power (a powerful aberrant dragonmark, if you're familiar with the setting). One faction wants to use her powers to open the doorway to the Plane of Madness, one faction wants to use her to start a war, one faction wants her dead because of the fiendish corruption that taints her, etc, etc. But the PCs are the only ones trying to really help her. What level are they? 2nd. Are they totally outgunned? Yup! Are they on the run? Yup! But are they having a darn good time? Yup! And they're the real heros... no waiting around for Elmunchter and Drzzzzzzzzzzt to show up and save the day!!!! :w00t: (Notice how my excessive use of exclamation marks makes me more right? ;) )
Ut-Napishtim 06-26-05, 11:43 AM	I wouldn't have a problem with an NPC using blackmail or something. In one of my games I had a PC who murdered a prostitute. The city officials decided to round up all the tarts and lock them up (prostitution laws were on the books but not usually enforced) for their own safety. Vigilante bands of local laborers and tradesmen began roaming the streets at night with torches and sacks of doorknobs looking for the "Ripper" killer. A relatively low-level Wizard (the party could've easily greased her in a couple rounds, but the PC didn't want the rest of the group to know he was the killer) who had gotten a good look at the PC blackmailed him into doing a couple tasks for her, and as a result she didn't identify him to the authorities and he got away with it. There is though IMHO a difference between that situation and having a high-powered NPC who says: Do this or I'll kill you. or I can just geas you if you don't want to. I always hate those sorts of situations. I propbably wouldn't throw my character sheet in the DM's face, but I'd roll my eyes and exchange glances with the other players before going along with it. If it became more than a one-time thing I'd develop "other commitments" and stop coming. The weekly mission from some uberNPC you can't refuse has got to be one of the lamest overarching campaign dynamics ever. The odd thing is how common it is, you'd think even the greenest DM would realize being Elminster's garbage boy isn't a fun game.
moto 06-26-05, 11:46 AM	This reminds me of one part of BG2 : ToB where you can contract out a small side quest to a low level party you save, they simply were lied to, it was not for any reason but lazyness and what they were told was a halve lie, but still it could be somtihng like that.
Eliza_Stormwhisper 06-26-05, 11:49 AM	With that said, what's the point of low level PC's doing anything? There's always someone better suited for the job.
O_Menda 06-26-05, 12:20 PM	With that said, what's the point of low level PC's doing anything? There's always someone better suited for the job. For the same reason that you don't hire a world-famous scientific to repair your computer: they are more expensive that those level 1 commoners that you can exploit and give them 10 gp for the most dangerous work in the world.
Roxlimn 06-26-05, 12:26 PM	Ut-Napishtim: There is though IMHO a difference between that situation and having a high-powered NPC who says: Do this or I'll kill you. or I can just geas you if you don't want to. I always hate those sorts of situations. I propbably wouldn't throw my character sheet in the DM's face, but I'd roll my eyes and exchange glances with the other players before going along with it. If it became more than a one-time thing I'd develop "other commitments" and stop coming. The weekly mission from some uberNPC you can't refuse has got to be one of the lamest overarching campaign dynamics ever. The odd thing is how common it is, you'd think even the greenest DM would realize being Elminster's garbage boy isn't a fun game. You're right. There is a difference between a high level Mage intimidating you into doing a task for him and a low level one blackmailing you to do a task for her. Strangely enough, my players prefer the former, but absolutely hate the latter. You see, even an 18th level Mage doesn't have all that much power. Sure, he can trounce your entire party in a jiffy, but chances are, he's got bigger fish to fry, and once you're out of his combat spell range, you'd probably prove much too troublesome to track down and haul up. Most people don't want unreliable people doing things for them anyway, so a repeat demand isn't very likely at that point. At the lower levels of play, the incidience that my players meet up and interact with higher level NPCs is directly proportional to how successful they are and how prominent they are. High level people want obviously successful and competent low level people for lackeys, what can I say? It wouldn't be believable for the Lord Mayor not to come to them for an important task if they're the flavor of the month, after all. The thing I don't get is that many people on these boards seem not to mind overly when a evil NPC comes along and coerces you to do something for him, but mind when a supposedly good one does. I mean, where's the divide? Are you actually forced to follow this guy's commands to the letter? What's wrong with double-crossing the Lord Mayor? Is it really much worse than double crossing a Zhent? I mean, at least the Zhent meant to pay you with hard cash. Mr. Lord Mayor was going to be content to pay you with "the gratitude of the city," whatever that's worth. It isn't that the PCs can't refuse the mission, you know. They just better not let it on within this one guy's hearing. I don't see where the problem lies there. Of course, making an enemy of the Lord Mayor may be more problematic than making an enemy of some hidden Zhentarim agent in Mulmaster, but them's the breaks. Powerful people present accomplished people "offers they can't refuse" all the time in real life. Why not offer the PCs the same set of choices in the game? Some the best games I've run involved PCs trying to subvert the purposes of a geas spell or otherwise trying to remove coercive magic from their person. Imagine their satisfaction when they finally get to whack that hated Lord Mayor for trying to intimidate them into being his unwitting pawns! "Take that, you scum sucking fiend!" Ah, good times.
Ut-Napishtim 06-26-05, 12:30 PM	With that said, what's the point of low level PC's doing anything? There's always someone better suited for the job. Not neccesarily. Low-level jobs are going to have low-level payoffs that won't attract the major leaguers. A village offering 400 gold to a group of 1st level adventurers to take care of the classic 'goblins in a cave nearby that have been bad' is a pretty sweet deal. For Krusty the Klown... well as he would say: I make more than that taking a schmidzt. Meanwhile if Asmodeous enters Oerth and starts taking stuff over and causing trouble folks aren't going to ask a bunch of teenagers hanging out in a tavern to do something about it - they're going to call The A-Team and let Mr. T pity da fool! It just doesn't make sense for a 23rd level character to ask a group of 8th level PC's to save the world. If the world really needs to be saved he'll round up his old adventuring buddies and take care of business, or failing that just handle it himself. After all, the world is important to him too - that's where he keeps all his stuff! Now if he wants the PC's to go clear some squatters out of his summer beach house in Palanthas but can't do it himself ATM because his old college roommate went evil and is currently trying to raise Ishtar from the sea to destroy Ansalon, that makes more sense. Sure, that village would love to have him drop by and take care of their goblin troubles in 30 minutes or less - but he's got squatters in his beach house, a former roommate trying to destroy the world, a shipping empire that provides him with regualr income for his research to manage, and oh yeah - research to do with that money so he can make himself that new spell/staff/set of robes that will help him defeat his old roommate and save the world. Not to mention the fact that he still hasn't gotten a chance to complete that golem he's been working on! People with that kind of cash employ others to take care of the little things so they can do what they want - it's called the service industry. When you go to Wendy's and pay $6 for a combo meal because you don't have time to make lunch yourself - that makes sense. Going to Wendy's and paying the girl behind the counter $6 to do your dayjob as a Pediatric Surgeon while you hang out there and flip burgers could be construed as an indicator of insanity. EDIT: @Roxlimn: Yeah, I get what you're saying. I don't mean I don't like adventures where the characters do things for big-wigs. What I meant is I hate it when you have no choice in the matter, or it's always the same guy. A lot of DM's I've seen create some uberNPC that's like 25th level at the start of the game and go: Meet your new master! Then you spend the rest of the time totally railroaded into stupid jobs and punished any time you try and do something different: No! My character... er, I mean the NPC is your master! He permanently drains you of five points of Charisma for... backtalking him and warns you not to do it again. Yeah, great. :rolleyes:
Phrennzy 06-26-05, 01:08 PM	As a player, presented with a lame plot hook like this, I'd be more than happy with this outcome. The question is, would the DM be happy when I said, "Cool, now we can do X, Y and Z, which is what we wanted to do in the first place!"? Especially if the DM wasn't prepared to run an adventure where the PCs do X, Y and Z. My recommendation, stop creating campaigns around lame plot hooks. Eh, if the players were the sort to have ideas to do "X, Y and Z" then the DM wouldn't have to come up with lame plot hooks like this.
Roxlimn 06-26-05, 01:31 PM	Ut-Napishtim: Well, yes, that would be bad on so many levels. Firstly, if your PCs were so recalcitrant, what in the heck are they still doing around this supposedly well-accomplished succesful person? Hasn't he got anything better to do than coddle a bunch of ne'er do wells that don't appreciate his effort anyway? More importantly, isn't there anyone else willing to take these jobs? Secondly, there's a great deal of DM/NPC mingling there, and that's not good. I make a point of disposing of any NPC I get too attached to, because that sort of thing interferes with play and sound judgement. It doesn't do at all for any NPC to speak as the DM's mouthpiece. It ruins verisimilitude and promotes rampant metagaming. And that's the best that could happen.
Man in the Funny Hat 06-26-05, 03:07 PM	It is in how you present the adventures. If the world is truly doomed if the PC's fail then there does indeed have to be good reason why every high level mook in the world isn't in on the caper. It's often better if the wizened old mage sets them the "simple task of destroying the One Ring" and then AFTER the PC's have started on the adventure they find out that if the ring ISN'T destroyed the world is doomed - and there isn't time or ability to turn the task over to anyone else. Just because the wizened old mage is OLD doesn't mean he's 30th level. Just because he has a staff doesn't mean it ought to be a relic or pseudo relic like the Staff of the Magi. Maybe the PC's just THINK it's the SotM because the Old Mage is amused by the false rumor and doesn't correct anyone who gets it wrong. If the Wizended Old Mage is "setting you a task/quest" then what kind of position is the WOM in to DO that in the first place. What position are the PC's in that they feel obligated to accept any old quest from the guy - much less one that supposedly has the fate of the world in the balance? The Old Mage looks at you and says, "You're exactly right! What am I thinking?! I shall leave on the morrow - but I shall have another task for you tonight to complete in my absence." The PC's then show up to find the Old Mage is DEAD or trapped in an extra-planar prison. Who now will Save The World if not them? It ultimately sounds like you're merely reading boxed text rather than adapting an adventure to YOUR campaign, your PC's, your NPC's... These things aren't all just plug-and-play you know.
Derren S. 06-26-05, 03:15 PM	The Old Mage looks at you and says, "You're exactly right! What am I thinking?! I shall leave on the morrow - but I shall have another task for you tonight to complete in my absence." The PC's then show up to find the Old Mage is DEAD or trapped in an extra-planar prison. Who now will Save The World if not them? Maybe other high level NPCs?
VirgilCaine 06-26-05, 03:18 PM	Kindof the same reason why, although Professor X could mindrape every last one of the Brotherhood of Mutants, from his living room, while sipping a cup of tea, he sends the X-men to do the fighting. That's an easy one. He has to protect all the student mutants, to step up when the current X-men get too old.
Derren S. 06-26-05, 03:22 PM	That's an easy one. He has to protect all the student mutants, to step up when the current X-men get too old. Rather because this solution would only be enough for one comic.
Arrowhen 06-26-05, 03:54 PM	Eh, if the players were the sort to have ideas to do "X, Y and Z" then the DM wouldn't have to come up with lame plot hooks like this. I see it the other way. Players who are constantly fed lame plot hooks never develop the ability to come up with their own goals.
Mirikon 06-26-05, 04:45 PM	There are several simple solutions to the 'Why don't you do it' question. 1) Prevent the situation from happening in the first place. The PCs are not hired for the job by an NPC. They have the path forced upon them by circumstance. 2) The NPC is only a level or two higher than the PCs. "I am going along, actually. Now do you want the job or not?" 3) The NPC is busy with more important things. "Yes, I want you to go and stop the Vampire Lord Fluffy from taking over the world. No, I won't be going with you. See, I have to keep the multiverse from unravelling by helping the me from another prime material plane stop the me from yet another prime material plane in his/my quest to eliminate the boundaries between planes. It is very technical." 4) The NPC can't go himself. "Yes, i could check on these rumors myself. However, it would be unwise to let the forces at work know what I have learned. You will be able to get there with far less notice than I would. Report back to me when you find the cause of the disturbances." 5) The NPC is unable to go. Good examples would be the old human wizard who is 100 years old, or the NPC who has been captured by the BBEG, and is communicating to the PCs by mystical power. The quest is to free the NPC!
Palin the Wizard 06-26-05, 04:55 PM	The curiosity is killing me. How did you kill Elminster? I've always hated that guy. I had him sacrifice himself to save the world, pretty much. Along with as many other NPCs I could cram into the ritual. The rest of them defended the ones who were in the ritual. When a person like Telamont decides a world is supposed to be conquered, it's pretty darn hard to stop him.
rbingham2000 06-26-05, 05:58 PM	It's often better if the wizened old mage sets them the "simple task of destroying the One Ring" and then AFTER the PC's have started on the adventure they find out that if the ring ISN'T destroyed the world is doomed - and there isn't time or ability to turn the task over to anyone else. And the way it was done in LOTR was even better: Gandalf, after going over the history of the Ring and explaining that Sauron is looking for it, tells Frodo to head for Bree, where he plans to meet him at a local inn. But when Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin end up there, they find that Gandalf isn't there (because he lost a mageduel with Saruman and got himself trapped in his tower). They meet Aragorn, a ranger who leads them on a journey to Rivendell. The Nazgul find out where they are and attack the crew, and Frodo gets stabbed with a Morgul blade before Aragorn drives them off. Then Arwen (or Glorfindel, depending on which version of the saga you subscribe to) takes Frodo to Rivendell and washes out the Nazgul in the process. It is only when the party (and Gandalf, who has in the meantime escaped from Saruman's tower via the giant eagle Gwaihir) reaches Rivendell that they all learn from Elrond about the true danger that the Ring of Power represents and what has to be done with it in order to save the world.
Timlagor 06-26-05, 11:57 PM	1) I don't care where you are or what you're eating it's totally unacceptable behaviour to throw things at the DM and insult them. Tell them you don't like it and tell them why by all means but there is no reason not to be nice about it. It would only be an insult if the DM is deliberately making it unenjoyable for you which is highly unlikely. 2) Much my preferred response has already been mentioned: "I could but I can't be bothered. If you want the world you'd better save it; I've done my part, now I'm off to the Burning Wizard in Sigil for a nice drink and a gossip" *puff* 3) I also very much like the "nothing is as it seems" scenario.
LadyCreator 06-27-05, 12:32 AM	I usually start with something innocuous, and then it turns out to be a clue to a bigger plot that very few others besides the PCs are even aware of. If the NPCs don't know what the problem is, they can't very well fix it.
FreeTheSlaves 06-27-05, 03:55 AM	I run the game in the manner where the pc's get the attention they warrant and no more or less. Powerful enough to raise a mercanary company? Great, someone in need of that power is going to approach them. Are green rookies but can guard a caravan for cheap? Great, a poor merchant might come their way. The merchant might go to the lordly pc's, but to petition the leader to deal with banditry... and may be directed to some green but loyal followers. The way I run uber npc's is that they don't muck around with lowly people unless there is good cause (friendship/relatives etc), usually it goes down the hierarchy without any dramatic big jumps from high level to low. With this in mind, if ever the pc's get a "you will do this" speech from some overlord they had better jump to it because this guy means business. (The campaign is based upon feudalistic society & for a vassal to refuse their lord is treason punishable by death, hey the pc's are lords too so it's 2 way traffic.)
MoogleEmpMog 06-27-05, 11:59 AM	I've never understood the desire to directly save the world by 8th level. Perhaps it's a legacy of pre-3e level tables (which I always houseruled). Perhaps it's a leagacy of Lord of the Rings (which gave as good an explanation of the matter as any other source material). If saving the world falls to 6th level characters and the world is anything like that of core D&D... the world dies. Sorry. We're talking about people who can MAYBE go one-on-one with a single mind flayer or giant. Maybe. Even the 'mere' 16th-level wizard in the local metropolis is leagues ahead of these chumps, simply because the jump in a wizard's power from 14th to 15th level is far, far greater than from 20th to even 23rd. If there's even a single 20th level character in the world, he could paste our intrepid but overmatched fools in probably one round - and likely any threat they can stand against them. If there's even a single young adult gold dragon, he can do absolutely everything the PCs can do and then some, in less time, without significant danger to himself. 6th level PCs should be raiding lost temples to gain wealth and power, saving at most large baronies or (very) small duchies or medium-sized towns from humanoid invasion - since the orc chief should probably be 8th level or higher - maybe laying plans to hunt their first dragon. 16th level PCs have business saving the world. In fact, if they start their quest right about now, it will probably take them to 20th level and the end of the campaign, unless the group wants to go Epic. Since I've seen plenty of 16th level parties more than capable of pasting the as-printed Elminster, even Epic NPCs have reason to respect their prowess, assuming Epic NPCs exist. 26th level PCs have probably save the world already, at least once. Even in the Realms, where they'll be strong enough to have tangled with at least one major villain. Or, heck to have destroyed the Elemental Evils destined to destroy the world, according to Champions of Ruin. :rolleyes:
clarkvalentine 06-27-05, 12:18 PM	I think the two most believable solutions are: 1. NPC says "The enemy is moving on many fronts and I can't be everywhere at once." 2. The PCs don't set out to save the world, but they discover the plot to destroy it and they're the only ones in a position to do anything about it. Yes, you'd like to call in Elminster but how are you going to do that? Meanwhile, Evil Overlord Dude over there is halfway through his demon-summoning ritual. You'd better think fast.
Derren S. 06-27-05, 12:28 PM	I think the two most believable solutions are: Yes, you'd like to call in Elminster but how are you going to do that? When Teleport comes availiable, its easy to call the local superpowers.
Palin the Wizard 06-27-05, 12:37 PM	Assuming the local superpowers will listen. "Bah! You weaklings wouldn't know a threat if it exploded in your face!"
clarkvalentine 06-27-05, 12:40 PM	When Teleport comes availiable, its easy to call the local superpowers. "Easy" and "Get him here in the next 60 seconds" are two different things. *shrugs* There are ways around this sort of thing. It depends how much your players are willing to play along with a stretch or two for the sake of the story.
Derren S. 06-27-05, 12:47 PM	Are your camapaigns/plot hook always only 60 seconds long?
StormKnight 06-27-05, 12:53 PM	Simple enough, don't have uber-NPCs telling the party what to do. If the task is that important, whoever wants it done should not be capable of doing it themselves, and should probably be much less capable than the party. If the PCs have an uber-mentor and you want an "end of the world" plot, don't have the uber-mentor realize its as bad as it is. Send them on what the mentor thinks is a minor task, then let them uncover the full extent of it. (And make sure they don't have enough time to just run back and get help!)
clarkvalentine 06-27-05, 01:14 PM	Are your camapaigns/plot hook always only 60 seconds long? They never are. Are yours? Specific encoutners, on the other hand, often are.
kaldrin 06-27-05, 01:53 PM	When Teleport comes availiable, its easy to call the local superpowers. Yeah? Where is he right then? Can your PC honestly say for sure where anyone on the planet is at one point or another? You can waste your time trying to find the uber NPC or you can fix the problem and gain the status for yourself. This reminds me of a DM who I first gamed with. He actually planned his campaigns from back to front. He's sit down and think about where he wanted them to be in 18 levels then ask himself how they'd get there. Then he'd take a step back and ask how they'd get to the point before the end. Etc. He did some pretty good campaigns. All in all, I can't remember ever asking the more powerful NPC why they didn't do it. It sounds like something an adventurer wouldn't do at all.
Keenath 06-27-05, 01:58 PM	I think, if you must do this sort of "because I said so" quest, then you should apply the old "can't be in two places" problem to the old wizard. He can't go do X because he's busy doing Y. "Why can't you go fetch the seven crystals?" "Because I'll be performing the ceremony that will make them WORK when you get back!" Or use the LotR reason -- "I'm too obvious." If the big wizard goes, the BBEG is going to know right away that something is up. If you want a stealth mission, you don't send the important person.
olshanski_home 06-27-05, 02:04 PM	I must run a brutally boring game. In 25 years of DMing, I've almost always 70% played games with good characters, the other 30% being neutral or cooperative evil characters. I've never run games with players higher than 17th level. Most of my games are in the 6th-12th level range. The players have never ever saved the world. The world has never been in serious jeapordy. There has always been more than enough local events, long lost dungeons, and stuff like that to keep players busy. I think that most of the best adventure tales do not involve "fate of the world" stuff. Indiana Jones, Arthurian Legends, Aliens, [insert war movie], pulp fiction, etc... All of these action/adventure tales are totally engrossing, but the fate of the world is never at stake. There are plenty of wrongs to be righted, plenty of evil people that should be brought to justice, and plenty of madmen and despots that need to be thwarted without the world necessarily being in danger. The adventure movies where the world is in danger tend to be the sillier or intentionally over-the-top things like James Bond.
kaldrin 06-27-05, 02:32 PM	I must run a brutally boring game. <snip> I think that most of the best adventure tales do not involve "fate of the world" stuff. Indiana Jones, Arthurian Legends, Aliens, [insert war movie], pulp fiction, etc... All of these action/adventure tales are totally engrossing, but the fate of the world is never at stake. There are plenty of wrongs to be righted, plenty of evil people that should be brought to justice, and plenty of madmen and despots that need to be thwarted without the world necessarily being in danger. I agree with this completely. I think that most DMs are in too much of a hurry to 'get out of Dodge' and save the world in their campaigns. Most of my campaigns haven't involved anything more than exploring the countryside for the first 15 levels. Still find plenty to do. Well, players have had to avert a war or two, but that's about it. They don't start getting into the planes until near 20th.
Liwmial 06-27-05, 03:10 PM	He he he ... "Fine. I'll go. Thanks for nothing you lazy sods." Next day at the inn. "Did ya here that old wizard went off and got hisself killed? Like to get me hands on the lazy sods that made 'im leave 'is tower. Everyone knows that old wizards are frail enough, but to make 'em go out into the world... siply inhuman." :: So now the mobs hate the players, and their powerful ally is dead, and he had a bitter apprentice ... who is on his way. Perhaps then the "why don;t you do it's" will not fall so freely. Good luck! ::
SwitchUK 06-27-05, 03:30 PM	World-saving = VERY epic, I think. anyone less than that will be going up against Wyrm dragons and the like. A Great Wyrm red dragon doesn't have a prayer of actually destroying the whole world, so what makes people think that a group of adventurers of level 20 or below could stop anything with that much raw power at its disposal? I mean, a great wyrm red dragon is a CR 26 monster. the average party of level 20 characters is in for the fight of their lives. You'd need a party that could theoretically kick that dragon's tail without breaking much of a sweat (level 30 at the very least) to even begin to approach world-destruction threats. That's my reasoning at the very least. Level 8 or so = dungeon-diving, crime-solving, maybe fighting a few fairly incompetent bad guys, okay? Batman stuff, in other words. Batman never saved the world (that I know of). Batman is level 10, tops.
StormKnight 06-27-05, 03:40 PM	While I think its perfectly great if there's never a "save the world" plot, I'd just like to point out to all the "low level characters would never be able to save the world" that Call of Cthulu can easily wind up being about "saving the world" with characters that would get pasted by a level 1 D&D character :) Just because there's a host of other people who could do it better doesn't mean there's anyone else in the right place at the right time to get it done.
Timlagor 06-27-05, 04:15 PM	"Ok guys there is a very real threat to the world. I've just heard that some idiot Giant is training as a huilking Hurler..."
General_Ridley 06-27-05, 04:48 PM	"Because I said so. Don't make me say some funny words and have you under my control and then make you do it that way."
Kyy'Dakh 06-27-05, 05:38 PM	I'm also of the opinion that world-saving is VERY epic material. In my CS, such plots seldom arise because deities and their legions of outsider underlings then to neutralize such threats and/or each other. For other CSs, I can imagine lower-level characters helping out, but not necessarily playing a central role. Back on to reasons why an epic wizard wouldn't do it himself: "Because I have to draw the elaborate Magic Circle of McGuffin in order to unlock the power of the crystal shards. Only two other beings in the known multiverse know the ritual, and I don't think you'd want to know what they'd do with it." "Because I'm paying you lots of money." (Under his breath): "And because I found and replaced the shards with fakes when no one was looking. These small fries will be the perfect decoys for the enemy while I prepare the real crystals."
MoogleEmpMog 06-27-05, 05:42 PM	"Ok guys there is a very real threat to the world. I've just heard that some idiot Giant is training as a huilking Hurler..." :rofl: One of the few genuinely world-destroying threats that mid-level PCs could actually kill! I love it.
Palin the Wizard 06-28-05, 12:07 PM	World-saving = VERY epic, I think. anyone less than that will be going up against Wyrm dragons and the like. A Great Wyrm red dragon doesn't have a prayer of actually destroying the whole world, so what makes people think that a group of adventurers of level 20 or below could stop anything with that much raw power at its disposal? I mean, a great wyrm red dragon is a CR 26 monster. the average party of level 20 characters is in for the fight of their lives. You'd need a party that could theoretically kick that dragon's tail without breaking much of a sweat (level 30 at the very least) to even begin to approach world-destruction threats. That's my reasoning at the very least. Sheesh. There are ways, even for low-to-mid level characters, to save the world.
StormKnight 06-28-05, 12:20 PM	Sheesh. There are ways, even for low-to-mid level characters, to save the world. Complete agreement. Low level characters can go and stop the low level cultists from summoning the being on unspeakable evil that will eat the world. Epic level characters can go fight the being of unspeakable evil that will eat the world after the low levels mess up.
Derren S. 06-28-05, 12:25 PM	But why not let the epic characters slay the cultists as they certainly won't screw up. (And preventing the unspeakable evil to be summoned is certainly important enough to warrant sending epic heroes)
Mirikon 06-28-05, 12:40 PM	But why not let the epic characters slay the cultists as they certainly won't screw up. (And preventing the unspeakable evil to be summoned is certainly important enough to warrant sending epic heroes) Because all that is holding back those unspeakable evils at the moment are the epic characters. If they divert their focus, then the evils will be unleashed anyway.
Derren S. 06-28-05, 12:43 PM	Then let their lvl 20 buddies do it. No need to bring low level adventurers into this.
Palin the Wizard 06-28-05, 12:56 PM	But why not let the epic characters slay the cultists as they certainly won't screw up. (And preventing the unspeakable evil to be summoned is certainly important enough to warrant sending epic heroes) There ain't any around.
Derren S. 06-28-05, 01:05 PM	So there are no heroes between the lvl 5 cultist slayers and those epic unspeakable evil slayer?
astute1 06-28-05, 01:25 PM	Sheesh. There are ways, even for low-to-mid level characters, to save the world. But, there probably shouldn't be. Because, if you're saving the world at level 3, what do you have to look forward to at level 10... or 20... or 30. Fact of the matter is, low level guys should face low level problems in a well written plot arc. Exploring ruins, saving villages, doing very important things that affect a small number of people. That is the province of the low level character. By mid level, the character has moved up in the world. He's likely known throughout his home region, and perhaps even further abroad. His actions might be those that affect thousands of people - defeating important enemy heroes in a battle. Stopping a mad plot to wipe an entire city off the earth. Making sure that an assassination attempt against the king fails. By high level, the character is one of the most important people in the entire campaign world. Their actions change the course of history for nations. They defeat entire armies with little help. They recover artifacts. They end plagues and defeat demons. At epic levels, the characters have begun to move into the realm of the gods. Basically, at this point, the characters are renowned throughout the world, and there is little any mortal power can do to oppose them. Completing any minor quest is just a wave of their hand. Only the biggest adventures will do. Most campaigns do not get this far.
Elendur 06-28-05, 04:56 PM	At some point you have to stop looking at it like a world simulation and look at it like a story. The PCs are the heroes of the story, and their actions are most important to that story regardless of their level. Consider comic book stories. Why is there anything for Batman to do, when Superman is flying around the same world? Because stories about Batman are cool, that's why.
friedmad 06-28-05, 05:23 PM	I approach it in a military heirarchy perspective: a general gives a captain an order to send a squad to capture a hill. The general tells the captain as much information as he is entitled to know regarding the mission so that the captain can pick the best people to accomplish the objective. the captain tells the squad of privates and their corporal that they need to capture the hill. the captain tells these 'lower-level' people as much information they need to complete the mission. he would not tell them why the mission is so important or what would be gained by accomplishing the task, even though the general told him something about this. so, if youre low-level, youre only told the info you need to know. as you get higher in level, youre told more information and perhaps given a personal stake to ensure the mission is completed.
Timlagor 06-28-05, 05:36 PM	Friedmad I don't see what you are trying to say -how it relates to the thread.
Bartleby_GoC 06-28-05, 05:48 PM	The key to DMing is finding a comfortable mix of railroading and total chaos. What works for me is to create as detailed a world as I can manage, determine the major story arcs I want to include, figure out what events will include the party, and then let the party loose. Notice I don't decide where and when the important events occur? DMing is kind of like a big choose-your-own adventure book. If your decisions are too restricted, you may as well be reading a book. I was this sort of DM for a long time. I reevaluated my DM style after a game disastrously ended with me uttering the phrase, "Fine! You're all dead." While the players sat there stunned, I packed up and left. One of those players is Welby in my current game. The other side fo the coin is to have too much choice. You end up never being prepared. The party will tend to do the same things over and over, eventually getting bored with killing monster A for X xp and Y gold. Because I have the events planned, but neither scheduled nor placed, they can literally heppen when and where I want or need them to happen. Obviously, an adventure set in a castle won't be the same set in a bog, but the event that sends the party to the castle could happen in a bog, a forrest, or a metropolitan zoo. My current party has been amazingly adept at avoiding important plot hooks. It's not even that thy saw them and ran away. On many occasions, I've had something waiting at the end of a road or in a town, and they've simply changed course mid-stride. So how do you get them back on track? Let the world go on without them. A low level party might not be able to save the empire, but if they end up in the right place at the right time, they might discover the plot and tell the people that CAN save the empire. Because my party avoided all interaction with the plot hooks, no one was there to be the straw ont he camel's back that swayed the course of history. Instead of stopping the plot to ursurp the emeror's throne, they helped the true emperor regain his throne. When it comes to preparation, you can't do enough. Any good DM will tell you that. The key is what you prepare. Don't map out the exact path the party will take as it solves your riddles and compleats your quests. Instead, figure out how NPCs respong in different parts of the world. What kinds of magic are illegal in different areas? What are the weather patterns? [Yes, I plotted out the basic weather patterns for the world. Because I did, the Central Cabran Sea- boring name- became the Sea of Storms because is was clear that hurricanes would blast right through.] Know your world better than anyone else. Know the answer to every question you think the party will ask. Then have a variety of hooks that can lead your part to the adventures you want to run. Ten or twenty per adventure is good. The party will miss a few, run away from a few, and never see a few, but they only need to snag one. Keep tossing out the hooks and they'll take one eventually. Use adventures that sale easily. Instead of fighting human guards inthe palace, the BBEG has had time to recruit drow. The two most important words you can ever learn as a DM are "Stay flexible." As soon as you go rigid, something will break. Bartleby
FreeTheSlaves 06-29-05, 02:00 AM	Friedmad I don't see what you are trying to say -how it relates to the thread. He is saying something similar to what I am saying, low level characters generally should _not_ interact directly with high level characters. In gumby terms, i.e. the stereotypically stupid case presented at the beginning of this thread, Mr Uber-wizard does not go to wiener pc's and entrust them with the fate of the world. Low level characters have limited ability to affect the world around them and so you really have to question the logic of Mr Uber-wizard even noticing them, let alone entrust them with something important. Btw, I highly doubt the world is "saved" by low or middle level characters; chances are that if they failed to "save" the world someone with a bit more ability could easily fix things up. Unless of course the adventure revolves around a Halfling & a ring - which does not translate at all well into the d&d default setting.
astute1 06-29-05, 10:34 AM	I think that most of the best adventure tales do not involve "fate of the world" stuff. Indiana Jones, Arthurian Legends, Aliens, [insert war movie], pulp fiction, etc... All of these action/adventure tales are totally engrossing, but the fate of the world is never at stake. There are plenty of wrongs to be righted, plenty of evil people that should be brought to justice, and plenty of madmen and despots that need to be thwarted without the world necessarily being in danger. Right on. I hate to knock video games (because I love them so), but most video RPGs tend to be of the "save the world" variety. I think you see a lot of spill-over from that into people's D&D games. That's cool... sometimes. But I generally prefer to run games where the PCs are accomplishing more realistic goals.
Man in the Funny Hat 06-29-05, 02:24 PM	I think that most of the best adventure tales do not involve "fate of the world" stuff. Indiana Jones, Arthurian Legends, Aliens, [insert war movie], pulp fiction, etc... All of these action/adventure tales are totally engrossing, but the fate of the world is never at stake.Well there was that whole business in Raiders of the Lost Ark about the Nazis using the Ark to conquer the world... but the point is well taken. There are plenty of wrongs to be righted, plenty of evil people that should be brought to justice, and plenty of madmen and despots that need to be thwarted without the world necessarily being in danger. The adventure movies where the world is in danger tend to be the sillier or intentionally over-the-top things like James Bond. Yep. Save-The-World is definitely epic stuff and the campaign needs to have that in perspective. Back in 1st Edition days we had a campaign that was never less than a blast but before the PC's reached 20th level (or even much above 15th) we'd saved the world a couple of times and killed Lolth permenantly in our own dimension and knocked her back to her own dimension for 1000 years in another. We really started to get this notion of "What is there left to do? Save the world again - and again, and AGAIN?" Saving the world is a campaign-closer whether the PC's win or lose and thus the PC's really do need to be in a position where they are NOT taking orders or even requests from HIGHER level NPC's to do it. They do it because they themselves are the only ones who can. The bit about "I task you with saving the world. [Why don't you do it yourself lame-o?]" is simply too pathetic a means of getting PC's onto an adventure to be tolerable. Even though there are viable EXCUSES for the Old Mage or other high level NPC's not to actively help they ARE still just excuses and they smell like it.
kaldrin 06-29-05, 03:27 PM	We really started to get this notion of "What is there left to do? Save the world again - and again, and AGAIN?" That or you get the same feeling of Mr. Incredible. "Oh man, I just cleaned this up! Can't you leave it for a little while?"
Valgaav 07-05-05, 11:59 AM	this is why I like Aramar (http://www.geocities.com/mamoru_tengoku/): once you get to a certain level, the Rules (http://www.geocities.com/mamoru_tengoku/rules.html) start trying to pigeonhole you as an 'always busy' type. in addition, if Epic Elminster goes out to try to help the PCs, he'll find resistance that only he can deal with because one of the Rules reads as follows: Anyone who goes out looking for trouble will find it in a form directly related to his abilities.