Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pegasos989 05-09-07, 08:03 AM	In medieval times, church kept telling people that they would burn in the fiery pits of hell if they weren't good. (I am not saying anything about current situation. Atleast Evangelic lutheristic church doesn't teach so but then again, it is protestant church so don't know if some still do...) I find it odd that I see all the time people talking about evildoers, especially when it comes to resurrection and willingness, going to some similar pits of hell after they die. I don't think that in DnD that would happen. Before anything else, I do aknowledge that there could be beings that feed on souls, get power from them and their suffering and then do the classic "Now that you are alive, you get what you want. When you die, I get to torture your soul for eternity." deals. However, I don't think that this applies to nearly all evildoers. Think about it, unlike in real world, in DnD it is unquestionably true that people have afterlife and everyone agrees (let's keep Eberron out of this!). People are resurrected or travel planes and come back to actually tell what is on the other side. Would it be that good motivating of worshippers from the gods to say "If you follow me, I will torture you for eternity after your death!"? Let's take Ernyg... Ergh... god-of-slaughter-whose-name-I-can't-write for example. I would think that those spreading death and slaughter on the world would, after they die, get to some place they enjoy really much. The god is pleased on what they do, afterall. I don't think that a well fighting and powerful priest of Gruumsh would go to the afterlife and be tortured by gruumsh forever, he would rather be rewarded and get to rule those who turned out weak or something. So in your games, do the bad people always suffer in the afterlife? If so, why?
Optimized_Commoner 05-09-07, 08:43 AM	This is, in my opinion, a very good question. My personal take on it is something I haven't seen before, which is that people don't have souls and that they go nowhere after death. Rather while they're alive their good actions feed into the divine energies of good gods, their evil actions feed into the evil gods and their natural power of being alive flows as part of nature. When they die they release a burst of energy from everything they've repressed throughout their lives. Resurrection magic isn't so much bringing a soul back from the afterlife, as gathering up all the traces a person leaves behind and magically fusing it into a living, breathing entity. Ghosts are the traces that hold enough power to continue existing. Nothing wrong with having an afterlife in D&D it's just not how I see things. Though for that matter, I see no reason why hell would have to be a horrible place in D&D. Plenty of evil people in the real world live in luxurious mansions built with their ill-gotten gains, demons would build a home that they would like. Probably not too friendly a place for a human to visit, but I'm sure a demon would be quite at home there.
Matthew77 05-09-07, 08:53 AM	Evil gods in D&D do not torment their petitioners in the afterlife as Satan is sometimes described as doing. Hell in the Christian mythos is a place where evil doers are punished. Hell in the standard D&D mythos is a place where LE is the accepted alignment, and everyone struggles to gain power by treachery and deceit. A LG soul might view being sent to the Nine Hells as a punishment, but to a LE soul, it is a place where they are encouraged to act on their instincts without being held back by the restrictions of the mortal planes. I'm not saying they would enjoy the experience, but it would at least be understandable and acceptable, rather than a punishment.
Vaelan 05-09-07, 09:40 AM	Think about it, unlike in real world, in DnD it is unquestionably true that people have afterlife and everyone agrees (let's keep Eberron out of this!). Is it really unquestionably true, or are you letting your out-of-character knowledge taint your judgement of what people in the game world really know? People are resurrected or travel planes and come back to actually tell what is on the other side. And I'm sure they tell such fine stories. But that's all they are as far as Joe Skeptic is concerned. Think about it. What does Joe Skeptic know about magic? Probably some really basic things, such as the fact that there is an entire school of magic that is basically about blowing :censored: up and that there is an entire school of magic that is basically about fabricating perceptions. You tell Joe Skeptic you have stepped through a portal and are now in The Nine Hells. Wave to Asmodeus, Joe Skeptic! He could believe that you actually took him to The Nine Hells or he could believe that you cast a spell to alter his perceptions or his memory, both of which exist and are lower level than plane-travelling magic. Also, people claim to have been resurrected or to have gone to another plane of existence in real life too. We have no more proof that they are telling the truth than Joe Skeptic has that people in his world are.
Potato Weasel 05-09-07, 09:42 AM	I forgot what happens to CE souls, but its explained that LE souls that arent claimed as petitioners by specific gods ( I think Hextor takes petitioners) souls are either turned into maggot like manifestations that are basically used as currency by evil planar beings (they hold evil power, and the more evil the soul that made it, the more power it holds) or they are turned into low level demons. By making pacts with dark powers, characters are generally hoping to a) put death off (hopefully forever by becoming a lich or such) b) get something thats worth it (and try to weasel out of the deal later) c) Make a pact for x amount of power, which can be offset by sacrificing so many souls or such, but if they die before then, they themselves get claimed Basically its a quick fix of power. And beings like erythnul who thinks everyone has to die and suffer horribly, only get worshipped by the insane or people who think they can gain great power by doing so.
Baloth King 05-09-07, 09:52 AM	I suppose it'd probably depend on your beliefs. See, if you were a Buddhist, then you probably wouldn't incorporate an afterlife because according to them bad people start again.
Class_A_Infidel 05-09-07, 10:29 AM	I suppose it'd probably depend on your beliefs. See, if you were a Buddhist, then you probably wouldn't incorporate an afterlife because according to them bad people start again. That's the same as saying, if you were an atheist, you wouldn't incorporate an afterlife because according to them no-one has one. Anyway, in this discussion, I always say that evil people's souls are kept to have their memory wiped and then put into a demon's or a devil's body. Same goes for good people, only with angels/archons.
Deacon Liadon 05-09-07, 11:02 AM	Let's see now... If I recall my planescape correctly, then the worshippers of evil gods will go to to that gods domain where they will serve the god for the rest of eternity. If the god chooses to release their soul then they may be ressurected. An unaligned soul, that is, a soul that doesn't follow a particular power, ends up as a petitioner of the lower planes. ON some this is a larvae. Then, depending on what plane you're on, different things happen. In Baator, Larvvae are rounded up by the Baatzu, and frequently tortured to see which are the strongest. These strong larvae are then initiated into the Baatzu ranks as lemures. Larvae that aren't rounded up eventually evolve on their own into manes. Any manes found by the Baatzu are "promoted" into lemures. In the Abyss the process is much the same, only the lemures aren't really tested, their divided into two piles, one of which ets turned into dretches, the other of which is eaten. In the Grey Waste, Carceri, and Gehanna, larvae are rounnded up and used as currency.
LCD2YOU 05-09-07, 11:07 AM	And all my friends are going to be there too.....
Elana 05-09-07, 12:02 PM	Of course someone who worships God and act evil will be tortured when he gets to hell. He might have been better off worshipping some evil god, so he doesn't get tortured when he arrives there :)
Class_A_Infidel 05-09-07, 12:07 PM	Of course someone who worships God and act evil will be tortured when he gets to hell. He might have been better off worshipping some evil god, so he doesn't get tortured when he arrives there :) But then again, God doesn't really exist in most D&D games. And a lot of people would argue against God existing in real life as well. So God can't really be used as an argument in a D&D forum, as far as I know.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 05-09-07, 12:26 PM	So in your games, do the bad people always suffer in the afterlife? If so, why? Yes, some of them. Good people are rewarded for their gooddeeds and go to Elysia to enjoy eternal peace and love. Evil people are rewarded for their eveil deds and go to Sheol to revel in alsuaghter and carnage. Neutrals are judged by their deeds and go to whichever place is most fitting. Atheists, those who chose to turn their back on the gods, are punished. The good ones are sent to Elysia to serve the faithful for all eternity, the evil ones are sent to Sheol to act as victims and playtings for the faithful there.
Pegasos989 05-09-07, 12:45 PM	That's the same as saying, if you were an atheist, you wouldn't incorporate an afterlife because according to them no-one has one. Anyway, in this discussion, I always say that evil people's souls are kept to have their memory wiped and then put into a demon's or a devil's body. Same goes for good people, only with angels/archons. Yeah. I come from a family in which my mother and sister are members of evangelic lutheric church, me and my father are atheists. That doesn't mean that either of us (yes, he plays DnD too) would remove gods from fantasy worlds. Of course someone who worships God and act evil will be tortured when he gets to hell. He might have been better off worshipping some evil god, so he doesn't get tortured when he arrives there :) But then again, God doesn't really exist in most D&D games. And a lot of people would argue against God existing in real life as well. So God can't really be used as an argument in a D&D forum, as far as I know. I think that what she was trying to say that if you follow a good god (go to church, wear his symbol, quote his texts, etc. show you are his follower) but still do evil deeds, you go to "hell" (or lower planes or whatever) and are tortured. So people comitting evil deeds will go down there, people committing good deeds up there but if you do evil deeds, depending on whether they are accepted by the god you follow, you will either be treated well or as a slave. Yet, I am not that sure of it either... If follower of pelor commits evil, one might think that evil gods would be very pleased... Actually, I think that aside from a few ones enjoying that really much, most evil gods wouldn't torture anyone...
Enchanter_Tom 05-09-07, 01:04 PM	This thread will not end well.
DyloniusFunk 05-09-07, 01:27 PM	Yes, some of them. Good people are rewarded for their gooddeeds and go to Elysia to enjoy eternal peace and love. Evil people are rewarded for their eveil deds and go to Sheol to revel in alsuaghter and carnage. Neutrals are judged by their deeds and go to whichever place is most fitting. Atheists, those who chose to turn their back on the gods, are punished. The good ones are sent to Elysia to serve the faithful for all eternity, the evil ones are sent to Sheol to act as victims and playtings for the faithful there. Good to see the Forgotten Realms style of punishing players who don't want religious characters is still going strong. :rolleyes:
Solik 05-09-07, 01:28 PM	Well, I just use the descriptions provided to us. There's plenty books speaking about the planes and what's found there. Petitioners are described, usually in pretty good detail, and what happens to them in that afterlife. I don't really see any reason to change that as long as I'm using a standard D&D world. Good to see the Forgotten Realms style of punishing players who don't want religious characters is still going strong. It is important to point out the difference between atheist characters and nonreligious characters in D&D worlds. You don't have to actively worship in the FR to wind up in some deity's plane in the afterlife. You just have to not deny their existence. Atheism, after all, is actually a religion, and denying the gods would be a religious statement.
LCD2YOU 05-09-07, 01:45 PM	On another thread wrecan pointed something out: Evil people, especially powerful ones, do have a really good idea of what is going to happen to them after they die. The thing is they want it. Many know that they'll be turned into larva or some other dreadful thing when they die. The know they will be "punished" somehow. But there's a difference. The "punishment" they'll recieve is inversly proportional to the amount of evil they've committed when they were alive. The more evil they commit, the less punishment they'll have to endure. There are three basic thoughts to this assumption here that I can think of here. The first is that everyone is going to end up where they do and the goal is to have others there to take up your pain. Those people believe that the souls of those they damned will take the beatings for them. So killing, harming and using others will make their torments not only lesser but perhpas they will actually enjoy it as well. The second believe that the pain they will get is to force out the last of the weaknesses they may have left in them. Things that make them weak like "compassion" and "goodness" need to be shredded. As they are weak ideals the evil person knows that to be made strong, those need to be purged. So while they're a lemure, mane or larva at first, they know that the more evil they spread when alive, the shorter that time will be. If they create enough evil and enough havoc, they may actually start off as a specific demon or devil type. Orcus is an example of this. The third type is that they will never die and through magics and other rituals they can become a God directly. They need others to worship them when they are alive and find a way to forstall if not outright prevent death. Vecna is an example of this. This is why evil people may not want to be "saved". They are just as convinced that their final spot is as an Arch-Duke, Demon Lord or God and that through raw power can they achieve that. So while some evil beings may cry and beg for another chance, they may be crying cause they know they haven't done enough evil yet. the "second chance" they want is so they can create more evil and enhance their eternal reward. That gives a whole new meaning to "rehabilitation" as who really knows if they want to repent or get a better shot at their "rescuerers" throat. Hope that helps.
Class_A_Infidel 05-09-07, 01:49 PM	Atheism, after all, is actually a religion, and denying the gods would be a religious statement. Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour.
LCD2YOU 05-09-07, 01:51 PM	Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour.Well, if one believes that there are no God or Gods, that is faith and faith is part of religion. As for me, I'm agnostic. I don't know if there are any Gods or Goddesses. I haven't seen any evidence to support the claim. I don't know why some Gods are said to have always existed while some never did. Personally, I could care less.
Solik 05-09-07, 02:10 PM	Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair colour. No, it's like calling it a hair style. Which is true. Making definitive statements about divine beings is religion, even if such statements is an emphatic "they don't exist."
Pegasos989 05-09-07, 02:23 PM	Religion has many definitions in dictionaries. http://www.google.fi/search?q=define%3A+religion&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:fi:official&client=firefox-a Some of them include atheism, others don't. "A way of seeing, thinking, and acting inspired by questions about what things mean: ie Where did we come from?, What is our destiny?, What is true?, What is false?, What is my duty or obligation?, What is the meaning of suffering?, What is the meaning of death?, How shall we live? "
Solik 05-09-07, 02:31 PM	Fair enough. No need to have a huge semantics argument when the definitions don't even all agree.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 05-09-07, 02:43 PM	Good to see the Forgotten Realms style of punishing players who don't want religious characters is still going strong. :rolleyes: Glad you think it is good - that denying the gods in a universe where they are demonstrably real is as idiotic as denying gravity or heat or inertia - though since my game has precisely nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms I am not certain what is your point? Out of curiosity, since you know precisely nothing about my game world's mythology, history or theology, why do you choose to dismiss it out of hand? Don't you think that is just a little presumptuous?
CaptainPicard 05-09-07, 02:45 PM	I don't see the Lower Planes as a punishment for the wicked so much as sorting people into the categories they belong in. The Upper Planes are filled with only good people and celestial beings of compassion and valor beyond mortal level. They are planes where people of the good alignments come together with all the forces of good. The alignment, in my opinion, shapes how the plane looks, so the glory of Celestia is the essence of Lawful Good alignment and the peace of Elysium is the essence of Neutral Good alignment. The "in-between" planes like Bytopia are products of these two forces interacting. Now, let's look at the Abyss. The Abyss is a truly maddening and vile place to behold, because it is shaped by Chaotic Evil alignment itself, which embodies the worse kind of sadism, hatred, and bloodlust known to man. Everyone who lives there shares these feelings, and on top of that you have Chaotic Evil Outisders who are even worse than the petitioners and much more powerful. Now, what real hope does the everyday street thug or murderer have when pitted against creatures as cruel as himself but a hundred times more mighty? The Abyss is not designed to torment Chaotic Evil souls - it only torment because it is itself Chaotic Evil. Beings like Gods are powerful enough on their respective planes that they may protect their worshipers when they arrive in the afterlife, or they may choose not to. A Deity like Hextor values followers who die honourably on the battlefield, serving his cause. Therefore, it is likely that he would not torment his followers, and existence in his realm would likely be very pleasant for his Clerics and most dedicated followers. Someone like Tharizdun is far too mad and cares for nothing but destruction, therefore I would doubt he does much for his petitioners.
Lazigothi 05-09-07, 03:24 PM	The OP scenario of Middle Ages Christianity was their message aimed at an audience assumed to be Christian or to persuade those of other faiths to become so. The presumption of Christianity revolves around the premis of a monotheistic God. The D&D universe is more dynamic, utilizing the potential for not only a pantheon, but a series of polytheistic entities for several creatures/ cultures which all interact. In RL, Christianity assumes no other deities exist. In D&D with these pantheons and polytheistic cultures, there's constant interaction and involvement with the material plane in a competition for petitioners in a complex chess-like game of chutes and ladders. In RL Christianity describes the punishment for those that serve evil and/ or otherwise disobey/ ignore the Christian God. It's not that much of a stretch to discuss philosophy game-wise and denote similarities and contrasts with D&D since some aspects include icons of Christianity. It also includes aspects of other religions as well. In a campaign with heavy cleric involvement, it might be wise for the DM to have their cosmology in order and information ready for curious PC's. I always felt it would be silly in the Christian domain, to "worship" Satan, provide excellent service, but at the ultimate reward of fire and damnation amid the torture conducted by the one loyally served all those years, and some of the Nine Hells/ Abyss have that similarity: why would an evil D&D character choose to follow an evil Devil/ Demon god with the ultimate reward of torture where they "might" beat the odds and advance as one of the outsider template monsters instead of on a plate served for dinner. Some mention that, in D&D, evil people either are not thusly tortured or would not consider an afterlife of "continuing the good work" a punishment even though it might be an afterlife filled with backstabbing and blood wars. I think one important contrast in D&D is that there are possible rewards to be had for any petitioner of deities in the appropriate outer plane. There's no eventual "damnation" per se, but a loyal petitioner is still expected to possibly face other petitioners in the other outer planes and interact. The interactions range from friendly to hostile. Since this is an elaborate re-representation of their former lives, would this be construed as a real reward? I'm sure there's a spectrum. Some will view such a role, regardless if one becomes an Archon or Pit Fiend, either as a position of valor and duty, revel in their new form with a more potent arsenal than when they were mortal, or they may feel profound ennui and depression that the battle is the same but just the names have changed. There can also be the sense of "out of the frying pan and into the fire" result, where petitioners face the quandary that this was not what they had signed up for, "Sure, it's great for the Succubus, but I got to shave the underside of the Nalfeshnee while singing his favorite lollipop song for a thousand years." There are other examples as well in D&D where souls of the dead are mortared into an infinite wall of flesh or never rise above larvae and become consumed. Would these be the rewards of a loyal petitioner? My own particular campaign views the gods as glamorized people/ powers. Anyone can become one and doesn't need to worship one to do so, but it makes the process easier. Athiests don't happen, although creatures abound who pay lip service or hold high ambitions of carving their own realm as a power in the outer planes. People don't go around sacking temples without expecting some kind of reaction. For some of the evil gods, the afterlife comes as a shock and surprise, but the transformation also changes the petitioners' outlook on things.
Solik 05-09-07, 03:34 PM	I don't think it's much of a stretch if you consider the lack of foresight possessed by many people (see: overeating sweets) or the levels of megalomania displayed by stereotypical Evil characters.
Millennium 05-09-07, 05:15 PM	In D&D, your fate when you die is to spend eternity with powerful beings of a similar moral and ethical outlook to your own. This is not, in and of itself, a reward or a punishment: it simply is. Where any semblance of reward and punishment come into play is in how the natives of the Outer Planes treat the souls that come to them. The denizens of the Lower Planes know how to extract power from pain, and so they torture souls. The denizens of the Upper Planes refuse to do that, but their planes are not necessarily peaceful and bright: an average day in Ysgard is just as violent as an average day in Baator. Heaven and Hell in D&D are nothing more than what the denizens of those planes have made them. It can be easy to mistake them for reward and punishment, but it's actually just the logical conclusion of the alignments themselves. This is what happens when you're in a position of powerlessness, but those above you think the same way you do.
Amon_WinterfallIV 05-09-07, 06:25 PM	Well, another way to resolve this is getting rid of the "everyone starts at the bottom" rule of the outer planes. An Low-Epic character might well become a Solar, a Balor, a Pit Fiend, a Death Slaad, or a Secundi after they die--now they are rewarded for their loyalty with power. It does seem awkward that greedy, proud types would really look forward to a life of slavery in Baator. It seems more sensible that vicious sociopaths would enjoy their neverending "Unreal Tournament" in the Abyss. I think that it is one of the weak points of the cosmology. If LE types recognize that there is a better deal in LN territory, they've probably got the discipline to wait it out. Hell then is probably where the LE punish all non LE and jockey for positions. Losses in Hell are replaced through promotions--all the way up to and including the lords of the Nine (Bel and Zariel, for example)
Solik 05-09-07, 06:36 PM	If LE types recognize that there is a better deal in LN territory, they've probably got the discipline to wait it out. Weak LE types might not be well-informed. Powerful LE types may be working to cheat death or establish themselves a comfortable position in Baator. Snivelling LE types might be cool as a slave to the master.
RellenMarn 05-09-07, 07:14 PM	Yes, some of them. Good people are rewarded for their gooddeeds and go to Elysia to enjoy eternal peace and love. Evil people are rewarded for their eveil deds and go to Sheol to revel in alsuaghter and carnage. Neutrals are judged by their deeds and go to whichever place is most fitting. Atheists, those who chose to turn their back on the gods, are punished. The good ones are sent to Elysia to serve the faithful for all eternity, the evil ones are sent to Sheol to act as victims and playtings for the faithful there. Wow your good gods would not meet my standards for good, neutral at best. "You denied me mortal, enjoy an eternity of servitude for I am Pelor god of Good, Healing, Slavery, and ummm... Wait...."
Far_Traveler 05-09-07, 09:36 PM	Think about it, unlike in real world, in DnD it is unquestionably true that people have afterlife and everyone agrees (let's keep Eberron out of this!). People are resurrected or travel planes and come back to actually tell what is on the other side. Would it be that good motivating of worshippers from the gods to say "If you follow me, I will torture you for eternity after your death!"? This part of the OP bugged me, and because it wasn't addressed I'll have to. IIRC, the Manual of the Planes said that ressurected people don't remember the afterlife. It went something like this: Death -> Shed Memories(astral plane) -> Afterlife (wherever) Please, someone with that bloody book confirm this. This is just something I heard from another thread.
Thubby 05-09-07, 09:45 PM	in my book, it not that you have to be tortured for all eternity, its that your in a place with very bad people, and you are the little guy on the block... ouch. if some 50th level super evil blackguard dies, he's probably going to do alright. 5th level cleric, not so much. if you want typical hell. worshipers of evil deities could be trying to "buy" their way out of torment with their worship and evil deads, and at the same time gain emmediate power in the mortal realm. (even if it doesnt work 99.99% of the time) EDIT: Far-traveler, you are right, but plane shift can get you to hell just as easy, and you get to see all the wonderfully tortured souls, without the side effects of the rack!
Meikle_641 05-09-07, 10:56 PM	Personally, I kind of like the theory that when you're brought back from the dead, it isn't actually you that comes back . I mean, think about it. When you're brought back you have no memory of what happens after death AND you're degraded by it, as shown by the level loss you suffer. Kind of like a photocopy. So you're not actually bringing them back, you're actually making a copy of what they were (roughly) before they died, but corrupted somewhat. Of course, the only real except seems to be True Resurrection. Of course, this is my pet theory and has no real support, but I'd like to hear your views on it.
cactot 05-09-07, 11:27 PM	No, it's like calling it a hair style. Which is true. Making definitive statements about divine beings is religion, even if such statements is an emphatic "they don't exist." No it doesn't, it makes it a belief. Religion implies far more than just belief or non-belief in a magical sky wizard. You will notice that just about every definition in the link posted earlier in the thread mentions things like: -System of beliefs and practices -a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power. -defined as belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices and institutions associated with such belief. -an organized system of faith and worship -collective customs and traditions of a body of people that have form an organization or an institution to pursue the study of a specific spiritual teaching or belief. -a set of beliefs, values, and practices based on teachings of a leader; a belief in God The difference is that atheism is a belief (or lack thereof) but not a belief system. Atheism is neither systematic or organized, the only qualification is that you do not believe in a magical creature controlling the world. Which would be similar to the fact that believing there is a god (in a monotheistic sense) does not make you a christian or a jew or a muslim. There is a LOT more to making a religion than belief or non belief in a supernatural power. Just the same as someone could think that there is a god yet be non-religious, because they are missing the other ESSENTIAL elements of a religion. Arguably the most important one missing is "practices". It is the strangest form of retaliatory strike that I have ever encountered, and it occurs a lot. It usually goes something like this: (note: i do not endorse any of the following ideas) Angry non-religious person: Religion is stupid it causes nothing but problems. Angry religious person: Ha! your non-religion is a religion thus you are just as bad as we are Angry non-religious person: ??? Stupid retaliation here! Angry religious person: Flame war on! Yet usually nobody mentions the usual and common definitions of the word religion, especially noting the thematic similarities between the different definitions of religion. If you look at all those definitions of religions from the link previously posted, there are only a few that could even possibly be considered to be able to apply to atheists. -Has many definitions - most of them involve the idea of supernatural agency www.csa.com/hottopics/religion/gloss.php (maybe? this can be "half" an example) Thats one half of an example that could justifiably encompass atheism as a religion out of 27 english language definitions. Atheism does not have: Practices Customs Worship System of Belief Organized anything Therefore, by any commonly accepted standard definition in the english language, it is NOT a religion. If someone were to base the argument on the word for "religion" in another language that is fine, but in English, it is pretty clearly not applicable to atheism.
Solik 05-09-07, 11:31 PM	You aren't paying attention. We already resolved the stupid semantics argument. I'll thank you for not trying to bring it back up again.
Optimized_Commoner 05-10-07, 02:22 AM	Wow your good gods would not meet my standards for good, neutral at best. "You denied me mortal, enjoy an eternity of servitude for I am Pelor god of Good, Healing, Slavery, and ummm... Wait...." QFT and LOL. Personally, I kind of like the theory that when you're brought back from the dead, it isn't actually you that comes back... Of course, this is my pet theory and has no real support, but I'd like to hear your views on it. If you look above you'll see that I feel much the same way. This attitude is a little outside of regular cannon but I don't think the difference is so insurmountable. Particularly if you use some of the heroes of horror resurrection rules.
AffableDoomwalker 05-10-07, 02:49 AM	I run Forgotten Realms, and I tend to run it Bible-Truth style. So the FRCS' explanation of the afterlife on pp. 258-259 make it a cut and dry process in my games: You die, and go to the Fugue Plane, then... Religious people will have their deity, or a representative like a deva, come by every once in a while and collect them, and bring them to their home (or favored) plane for their rewards (or lack thereof). Athiests, or people who only paid lip service to a deity and nothing more (the Faithless) and betrayers of their religion (the False) are compelled to enter the City of Judgment, where they're pretty much punished for eternity by Jergal and Kelemvor (and a kicker is, it makes resurrection a beeyatch and a half) depending on the severity of their faithlessness and crimes. Its not punishment so much as its an eternity of "We told you so, you didn't listen, now keep this city clean." Resurrection, with the exception of the damned populace of the City of Judgment, goes as normal, I really don't see anything explaining what a person remembers or doesn't from the afterlife, but I'd assume a person would know that they were dead, and recall at least bits and pieces of its time being dead (sort of like blacking out after you drink too much, and only remembering parts of the party). Devils are allowed to make deals with waiting souls (volunteers for the blood war, powerful souls can demand ranks or increases in power in return for service, thus evading the "Lemure for life" curse), demons raid for them (voluntolds for the blood war). Things work out hunky-dory.
nickcan 05-10-07, 04:17 AM	This thread will not end well. Probably the most intelligent thing in this thread. Going back to the OP: As I'm sure you can tell from the responses DnD is not just one world. You are asking how people deal with the big religious questions in either a published setting or in their own homebrew world. If thats not asking for problems then what is? So the answer is: Anyway you like. Do you want evil people to be punished or not? Do you want souls to exist after death or not? What role do your gods (evil or good) play in the afterlife? Rulebooks differ on these issues and as everyone answers through a lens of their own beliefs. So in short, "Think for yourself schmuck!"
AffableDoomwalker 05-10-07, 04:34 AM	If thats not asking for problems then what is? Someone could make a thread about a DMPC Paladin that killed a baby...
Optimized_Commoner 05-10-07, 04:51 AM	Someone could make a thread about a DMPC Paladin that killed a baby... DMPC Paladin that killed a baby psionicist with a manouever from TOB, while the party fighter and wizard duelled in the background and the player playing the baby psionicist started optimizing their new evil druid character.
Doom_Linnorm 05-10-07, 07:32 AM	Earlier in this thread there was mention that in DnD people know what happens in the afterlife, that this would thus discourage evil because people know they are going to the Abyss, Gehenna or Baator. The truth however is that extremely few, even in a high magic setting know this, only the people that have the power to travel the planes are aware of this. Something like 99.99% of all sentient DnD life presumably is blissfully unaware of the truth of the afterlife, the 0.01% are the people that have access to planar travel and/or powerful divination spells. Else the whole existence of Fiends like Harvester Devils is completely pointless because people know that there is no way they are going to get a good bargain for an eternity of torture.
Thubby 05-10-07, 09:24 AM	Earlier in this thread there was mention that in DnD people know what happens in the afterlife, that this would thus discourage evil because people know they are going to the Abyss, Gehenna or Baator. The truth however is that extremely few, even in a high magic setting know this, only the people that have the power to travel the planes are aware of this. Something like 99.99% of all sentient DnD life presumably is blissfully unaware of the truth of the afterlife, the 0.01% are the people that have access to planar travel and/or powerful divination spells. Else the whole existence of Fiends like Harvester Devils is completely pointless because people know that there is no way they are going to get a good bargain for an eternity of torture. less than .01% of the population has been to space, but i know what its like. havent been there, but i can tell you quite a bit. my point? information travels, when the fact that beings of uber power exist can be definitively proven, things like other planes become relatively comon knowledge. and harvester demons can make deals easy, sure you know know demons exist, do you know this thing is a demon? and, there will always be the ambitious, someone who doesnt care (at least at the time) about their soul.
Optimized_Commoner 05-10-07, 09:35 AM	less than .01% of the population has been to space, but i know what its like. havent been there, but i can tell you quite a bit. You do have the TV, the printing press and the internet, which rather beats a stone of sending.
LCD2YOU 05-10-07, 09:44 AM	I've moved to and then had to live in hell until my escape. It is a bleak wasteland filled with pathetic servants who cow tow to the ones above them. It's called Utah.
_Jayne_Cobb_ 05-10-07, 09:55 AM	Wow your good gods would not meet my standards for good, neutral at best. "You denied me mortal, enjoy an eternity of servitude for I am Pelor god of Good, Healing, Slavery, and ummm... Wait...." Wow, your game is not mine and so your standards do not obtain. Pelor does not exist in my world, nor do any of the other gods as a matter of fact, so that example has no real relevance.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-10-07, 10:54 AM	I haven't used the standard Cosmology in some time, but in general, the stupid bad guys and people who were simply bad rather than ruthless suffer in the Low planes. Basically, if you aren't claimed as a petitioner, you start out as whatever low level fiend matches your ethic. Through proper use of sudden and inevitable betrayals and general visciousness, you rise up the chain o' command, digivolving into stronger/more appropros fiends. The iconic fiends (the ones in the MM) are the the 'final form' of each genre of villain. So if you're a truely nasty, backbiting bastard, you skate in Hell. If you're just a huge jerk, you stay as a lemure or something and get to be fodder for eternity/until you get permed/until you grow a pair and show some initiative.
Doom_Linnorm 05-10-07, 11:07 AM	less than .01% of the population has been to space, but i know what its like. havent been there, but i can tell you quite a bit. my point? information travels, when the fact that beings of uber power exist can be definitively proven, things like other planes become relatively comon knowledge. and harvester demons can make deals easy, sure you know know demons exist, do you know this thing is a demon? and, there will always be the ambitious, someone who doesnt care (at least at the time) about their soul. How does that information travel so smoothly if there's no papers, no TV, no radio? Then don't forget that a relatively huge portion of the population was an analphabetic. Most people is a medieval setting can only speculate based on legends and myths. The few learned scholars that write massive tomes on the subject don't exactly hand out printed copies to educational facilities. Most adventurers also don't really spread the word a lot, because there is little or no point in it. Bards that have been to Hell and witnessed their Barbarian friend slaughter countless of Barbazu usualy aren't found in every pub, it would probably even be an extremely rare case if such an epic ballad would be preformed for nothing less then a mighty king or archmage who gave them their quest in the first place.
Thubby 05-10-07, 01:00 PM	How does that information travel so smoothly if there's no papers, no TV, no radio? Then don't forget that a relatively huge portion of the population was an analphabetic. Most people is a medieval setting can only speculate based on legends and myths. The few learned scholars that write massive tomes on the subject don't exactly hand out printed copies to educational facilities. Most adventurers also don't really spread the word a lot, because there is little or no point in it. Bards that have been to Hell and witnessed their Barbarian friend slaughter countless of Barbazu usualy aren't found in every pub, it would probably even be an extremely rare case if such an epic ballad would be preformed for nothing less then a mighty king or archmage who gave them their quest in the first place. everyone in dnd can read and write (barbarian aside) as per RAW, but that issue aside. churches of good deities have every reason to prove the existance of hell. and its easy to prove when every level 1 cleric, bard, wizard, sorcerer, adept and who knows how many splat book classes can call up a demon and ask, in town square if they like! (clerics that are good would have to call an angel, but who's gonna question its word?) even if only some tiny percentage of people have been to hell, they would be relatively high level (plane shifting and all). at that level they have teleport (or the like), any mage with a reason to prove hell exists could pop into town, summon up random outsiders, and boom! cant exactly argue with the demon about where he came from...
Doom_Linnorm 05-10-07, 01:14 PM	Because people can do something doesn't mean they actually do it. Temples of deities don't exist to teach people about the planes, they exist to worship that deities. People can do a lot of things but that doesn't mean they actually do it. Now seeing as you like "RAW" (which doesn't state that everybody can read or write aside from the barbarian (it states that barbarians can't, not that everybody else can by default (All PC classes can but PCs and most fully statted combat ready NPCs are exceptional individuals.))) When a summoning spell is used to summon an evil creature it is by "RAW" considered an evil act and thus good clerics are prohibited from casting it without losing all their cleric abilities. Not every town is supposed to have a wizard's guild in most standard settings, let alone ones which teach every random commoner about the planes. Now most commoners are familiar with the concept of the lower planes but even in the real world there are plenty of people that have heard of hell but choose to commit crimes anyway because they don't believe. If you check the rules for generating a community (as stated somewhere in the DMG or DMG II) you'll find out a bit more about standard DnD society. So don't go RAWing me, because it is just a lame excuse, anybody can interpret those written rules as they like with variable amounts of common sense. IMO: Just for simplicity assume the system works and dance around the small holes that you find.
Pegasos989 05-10-07, 01:36 PM	Probably the most intelligent thing in this thread. Going back to the OP: As I'm sure you can tell from the responses DnD is not just one world. You are asking how people deal with the big religious questions in either a published setting or in their own homebrew world. If thats not asking for problems then what is? True, I am aware that there are a damn lot of ways to play and think of DnD, so maybe I was asking how people personally deal with it in their games. However, why would that be asking for trouble? I didn't ask "What is the best way?" or "Prove everyone why your way is better than theirs?" but rather what is their way and why so, especially from one point of view that I had not understood. And I have already gotten several good answers, many of which I don't completely agree about but still.
Vaelan 05-10-07, 02:19 PM	It isn't possible to prove the existence of any given god or the existence of any given plane. The idea that one's perceptions cannot be trusted is a viable belief in the real world and an even more viable belief in a world where magic can alter your memories and fool your perceptions.
Pegasos989 05-10-07, 02:33 PM	It isn't possible to prove the existence of any given god or the existence of any given plane. The idea that one's perceptions cannot be trusted is a viable belief in the real world and an even more viable belief in a world where magic can alter your memories and fool your perceptions. The diffrence is that here, in real life, every religion teaches things diffrently. They practically never agree on some stuff or atleast how other religions interpret that stuff. However, in DnD, if highpriests of every religion and all the high-ranked mages uninomously agreed that there are planes, agreed on what kind of planes (even though might disagree with something about them), the existence of certain gods, etc. I think people would pretty much agree on that stuff after that. One could say "But wouldn't clerics of some gods say that followers of everyone else is going to the suffering place" but I don't think so. What would make a cleric of pelor say that if it wasn't true? Chance for personal gain? I doubt that for a cleric of pelor. Chance to convert people? I doubt that he would see it as true conversion if people are told "Follow pelor or suffer in hell"... What about cleric of hextor? He doesn't need to. If followers of hextor won't automatically suffer, he can teach "the strong of you shall rule the weak while the followers of Pelor will get what? Happy mood?" and know it is enough for the followers of Hextor. Only reason I see those would not agree is if followers of evil gods automatically would suffer but then the highpriest of the said god would propably say "Ah... **** it. I'll convert to follow pelor instead" instead of preaching lies...
Thubby 05-10-07, 03:30 PM	Because people can do something doesn't mean they actually do it. correct, but as i said, temples to good deities have a reason to teach people, it scares at least a few away from evil (however flawed the concept may be, real churches do it all the time) Temples of deities don't exist to teach people about the planes, they exist to worship that deities. People can do a lot of things but that doesn't mean they actually do it. most churches teach about the religeon which they practice, whatever version of heaven and hell they use is part of that religeon. terrifying people into following you and not "the devil" is comon irl. Now seeing as you like "RAW" (which doesn't state that everybody can read or write aside from the barbarian (it states that barbarians can't, not that everybody else can by default (All PC classes can but PCs and most fully statted combat ready NPCs are exceptional individuals.))) i concede that point largely because i dont care to debate it, it was an aside When a summoning spell is used to summon an evil creature it is by "RAW" considered an evil act and thus good clerics are prohibited from casting it without losing all their cleric abilities. i believe i mentioned this in my earlier post Not every town is supposed to have a wizard's guild in most standard settings, let alone ones which teach every random commoner about the planes. just because a town doesnt have a wizard guild or magic shop doesnt mean it has never had a wizard come by and talk about such things, or perhaps a visiting priest (cleric or adept) gave/gives demonstrations like catholic schools have missionaries come by. So don't go RAWing me, because it is just a lame excuse, anybody can interpret those written rules as they like with variable amounts of common sense. i refered to raw once, as a side note, about something largely off topic...
DyloniusFunk 05-10-07, 04:03 PM	DMPC Paladin that killed a baby psionicist with a manouever from TOB, while the party fighter and wizard duelled in the background and the player playing the baby psionicist started optimizing their new evil druid character. I've moved to and then had to live in hell until my escape. It is a bleak wasteland filled with pathetic servants who cow tow to the ones above them. It's called Utah. Yay two more for my sig. i better get out my Siggy-Ball:D
Doom_Linnorm 05-10-07, 04:47 PM	correct, but as i said, temples to good deities have a reason to teach people, it scares at least a few away from evil (however flawed the concept may be, real churches do it all the time) True, but if magic is THIS common then every damned commoner will have an EXTREMELY easy counter argument: Illusion/Enchantment.(1) most churches teach about the religeon which they practice, whatever version of heaven and hell they use is part of that religeon. terrifying people into following you and not "the devil" is comon irl. Refer to (1) i concede that point largely because i dont care to debate it, it was an aside Lets leave that to our own opinions then, I'll presume you have a proper defense. i believe i mentioned this in my earlier post While its persuasive, it doesn't prove it, again refer to (1). just because a town doesnt have a wizard guild or magic shop doesnt mean it has never had a wizard come by and talk about such things, or perhaps a visiting priest (cleric or adept) gave/gives demonstrations like catholic schools have missionaries come by. Wizards usualy aren't interested in educating commoners about religious topics so this would be INCREDIBLY rare, but indeed it could happen. i refered to raw once, as a side note, about something largely off topic... I got a little overzealus about the whole RAW thing, cus I dun believe in RAW, sorry about that. Thingy
Stormbrand 05-10-07, 06:28 PM	In medieval times, church kept telling people that they would burn in the fiery pits of hell if they weren't good. (I am not saying anything about current situation. Atleast Evangelic lutheristic church doesn't teach so but then again, it is protestant church so don't know if some still do...) I find it odd that I see all the time people talking about evildoers, especially when it comes to resurrection and willingness, going to some similar pits of hell after they die. I don't think that in DnD that would happen. Before anything else, I do aknowledge that there could be beings that feed on souls, get power from them and their suffering and then do the classic "Now that you are alive, you get what you want. When you die, I get to torture your soul for eternity." deals. However, I don't think that this applies to nearly all evildoers. Think about it, unlike in real world, in DnD it is unquestionably true that people have afterlife and everyone agrees (let's keep Eberron out of this!). People are resurrected or travel planes and come back to actually tell what is on the other side. Would it be that good motivating of worshippers from the gods to say "If you follow me, I will torture you for eternity after your death!"? Let's take Ernyg... Ergh... god-of-slaughter-whose-name-I-can't-write for example. I would think that those spreading death and slaughter on the world would, after they die, get to some place they enjoy really much. The god is pleased on what they do, afterall. I don't think that a well fighting and powerful priest of Gruumsh would go to the afterlife and be tortured by gruumsh forever, he would rather be rewarded and get to rule those who turned out weak or something. So in your games, do the bad people always suffer in the afterlife? If so, why? Well, for me, it comes down to one major feature of fiends and evil gods. They lie. Shocking really. The Lower Planes are formed from evil, and the nature of evil involves victims. Someone has to be that victim, and I see no reason for the incarnations and embodyments of evil to object to betraying their followers. Quite frankly, those in power in the Infernal Planes do as they like. What they like is torture and cruelty. If someone has trusted them, so much the better. They prefer innocent victims, but the bulk of their victims are of the matching alignment of their plane. A favoured servant might be kept in some manner which favours the dark master, but that is more to do with them being useful. And none of that is reliable. Generally, the torture of the Lower Planes is from being trapped with the worst of the worst. Everyone is looking to establish dominance and vent their aggression. The world reflects that. The Upper Planes, filled only with those who care for those around them, really is a paradise. A world filled with exploitative, cruel, spiteful backstabbers is really a hell. What is hell but the tangible proof of despair?
DarkflameX 05-10-07, 06:34 PM	those who please an evil god perhaps just continue to serve under him in the after life and be come the ones doing the torturing. in the Christian religion you go to hell for not doing whatever, but when your god says to slaughter, then slaughter you will. and be rewarded with an eternity of slaughter in the afterlife. ^thats just a random idea
AffableDoomwalker 05-11-07, 03:54 AM	Yeah, Forgotten Realms Cosmology rules, it cuts out so many questions. Offers so many answers. Everyone should just play FR.
Optimized_Commoner 05-11-07, 04:25 AM	Everyone should just play FR. Not even if you put a gun to my head. Okay, maybe then.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-11-07, 07:54 AM	Yeah, Forgotten Realms Cosmology rules, it cuts out so many questions. Offers so many answers. Only because the gods are so painfully aware of the unimportance of Gods in DnD that they've just dropped all pretense of mystique in favor of writing tell all books about the planes.
ElberethSilverleaf 05-12-07, 08:54 PM	The whole "faithless" malarky used is FR is so ridiculous. If I'm not mistaken it was used as a plot element in the Avatar series, and somehow is now considered canon. It was obviously written by people who can't grasp the idea that some people have no need for "God" or "gods" in real life, so they bring this all ready held ignorant grudge against atheists and agnostics into their writings. The concept that an good aligned atheist/agnostic is going to receive worse treatment in the afterlife than an evil mass murdering child molester is the stupidest game mechanic I have ever seen. I've never used it in my games and never will. When a person dies his soul goes to the plane that closest fits his alignment, period.
LCD2YOU 05-12-07, 10:29 PM	The whole "faithless" malarky used is FR is so ridiculous. If I'm not mistaken it was used as a plot element in the Avatar series, and somehow is now considered canon. It was obviously written by people who can't grasp the idea that some people have no need for "God" or "gods" in real life, so they bring this all ready held ignorant grudge against atheists and agnostics into their writings. The concept that an good aligned atheist/agnostic is going to receive worse treatment in the afterlife than an evil mass murdering child molester is the stupidest game mechanic I have ever seen.Agreed.I've never used it in my games and never will. When a person dies his soul goes to the plane that closest fits his alignment, period.The only thing that can change this is if the Gods created the outer planes so one would have to worship a God to get there. That would be interesting for the "good Gods" as they would let a good soul be wasted just because they didn't believe. Sounds a lot like RL.
Enchanter_Tom 05-13-07, 01:31 AM	The whole "faithless" malarky used is FR is so ridiculous. If I'm not mistaken it was used as a plot element in the Avatar series, and somehow is now considered canon. It was obviously written by people who can't grasp the idea that some people have no need for "God" or "gods" in real life, so they bring this all ready held ignorant grudge against atheists and agnostics into their writings. The concept that an good aligned atheist/agnostic is going to receive worse treatment in the afterlife than an evil mass murdering child molester is the stupidest game mechanic I have ever seen. I've never used it in my games and never will. When a person dies his soul goes to the plane that closest fits his alignment, period. Elaborate on the faithless.
AffableDoomwalker 05-13-07, 04:23 AM	Only because the gods are so painfully aware of the unimportance of Gods in DnD that they've just dropped all pretense of mystique in favor of writing tell all books about the planes. Tis true, but it does answer the questions, sometimes its nice to have an easy button. Elaborate on the faithless. The Faithless are people who are atheists/agnostics. They deny the existence of, or generally don't care to worship a deity. Their fate isn't some horrible anti-atheist treatment, as others would have you believe. The simple fact is, in FR, unlike real life, you can prove without any doubt that deities exist, they play a definitive role in the history of the land (id est the time of troubles). If you choose not to worship, or for some reason or another, choose to deny the existence of a very real force, you won't be given the benefits of any deity's rewards. Fair enough right? So? You're placed on the Fugue plane, living in the City of the Judged with Kelemvor and Jergal. Your Judgment, and thus eternal fate, is based entirely on your behavior in life (a la Good/Neutral/Evil). Granted, you may be doing community service for ol' Kelly and Jergie now and again, but hey, that's your bad for declining to read/denying the writing on the wall, and in the sky, and on the church podiums. Point is, a Good atheist isn't damned to a fate worse than an Evil cleric. Even then, there's no saying an evil cleric is damned, turns out evil worshipers of Tempus have a... hell... of a time in the afterlife (get it? yuk yuk)... yeah, turns out evil =/= automatic damnation, at least not in FR. Which is another reason I like it. Regardless, someone PC's opinion on the existence of deities in the Forgotten Realms doesn't amount to much, 'specially when the fact is they exist. If you want a game where deities are questionable, and nothing about the afterlife is certain (even in the fluff), go play WFRP.
kelvinaw273 05-13-07, 08:22 AM	Well my take on the entire 'reward and punishment' thing is like this: There are two types of evil people: those that deliberately do evil, and those that justify, believing they are good or neutral people who simply 'have to do things'. The latter group are generally in for a shock, so let's ignore them for the moment. Now for evil people worshiping an evil deity, the story is a little different. The tenets of following an evil faith tend to come down to: 1) We are really the good guys, because compassion and love are actually total BS lies put about to make the weak seem worthy {feel free to add any lines here about being wronged, not being given our due etc.} 2) Most people who try to be good, fail. They are all going to hell anyway. The good gods lie about this. This is why it is important to corrupt these people, so they realize the truth quicker. 3) By embracing 'the truth' you can at least gain an advantage in the afterlife as you will favored by the One True God. 4) And remember, evil gods sometimes tell lies, so their spin on this can be regarded as not entirely accurate. Basically, those embracing an evil doctrine get a leg up (not a large one though) in the pecking order of Hell, the Abyss, whatever. By and large, the worse thing about Hell is the company there ... you might be the baddest of the bad on earth, but in hell there's always someone badder to rip you a new one and make you eat dirt ...