Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thynass 10-12-05, 12:23 PM	I have been a DM for a long time, but I still can't get used to DMing a large group. I have DMed for groups usually between 5 and 8 players (generally towards the larger end), and sometimes even larger. I am presently starting a new campaign and I have presently eight players. Does anyone have any tips for DMing such a large and unruly mob? I know people will give advice like get rid of some players, or split them into groups, but I'm too nice to turn people away and I can't run more than one group. Help!!
Lord Ian Stark 10-12-05, 12:27 PM	Well just double all encounters as the party is effectively the strength of two full groups CR wise. If you think that's too harsh, add up all the attacks and spells that can be accomplished in just one round by your 8 man party. Think about it. It's crazy. Expecially mid to high levels when each character can have to 3 or more attacks each! If you have only 3 or 4 enemies in an encounter, those creatures won't even go before they're dead. Just something to think of. What level are you starting the PC's at?
VerinBlod 10-12-05, 12:38 PM	Let someone help you with handling initiative checks, skill checks, etc. So you can speed up combat more. Also enforce a time limit where in a player has to decide what their characters would do during combat and have them pre roll their attacks and damage. Otherwise combat will continue forever. It might sound harsh that if a player doesn't decide with in ten seconds he has lost his turn but it does keep everyone focused. Good luck!
primemover003 10-12-05, 02:38 PM	I've been running massive groups for pretty much my entire 11 year DM career. Remember this maxim... Numbers, not Strength. Your PC's will be challenged more by a number of weaker foes than one strong one. As Lord Ian stated one or two foes are going to get pwned by the 8 PC's. Actions are the most valuable resource in Combat and your party has a LOT. You need to spread their offensive power out over their enemies. Give fighters tough monsters to bash on (and get bashed by), give wizards little things to use area spells on, mix it up... As you'll be dealing with lot's of seperate actions and you have to keep the attention of a large group you need to be well prepared every session. Get some of your veteran players to keep the others in line. Have one person track intiative (we use a big board). I also like to keep a pad of graph paper handy to track rounds, and spell durations. Check off a box each round!!! You'll need to pass out a lot more treasure too. Every couple of levels you're gonna have to dump a bigger horde on the players. You're also gonna have to know which players are behind in treasure (it always happens). Focus the better treasure to those who are behind.
meshon 10-12-05, 03:10 PM	My group has hovered around 8 players for awhile now and it presents a big challenge, especially since some of the players are still quite new and tend to be unsure of their options in combat. I haven't tried getting helpers because the players are already overwhelmed as it is. Combats just take awhile. As to challenging the characters, using more weaker foes is alright, but I've found that to be really tough to run. If you want to use large numbers against your group I would recommend doing as much prep-work as you can. Make sure you have all the info about your monsters at your finger-tips. It also helps (if you're using minis) to put numbers on the creatures so that you can keep track of hit points and status effects. Finally, jot down some notes about what the creatures will do in a given situation. Lastly, an anecdote from my campaign. The party averages 11th level and I am giving them a serious battle with a single foe, the Elite Vampire Monk/Shadowdancer from the monster manual. Its damage reduction tones down the power of the party barbarian and it's reflex save helps with all the nasty spells (especially sunbeam, this one can be devastating to a vampire encounter, be warned). Finally, the vampire has such a high tumble skill that she can usually move 6 squares through PCs and reposition herself every round. All that to say that sometimes a particular single foe can be a strategic challenge without being too overwhelming. Before someone accuses me of being too hard (the vampire is CR 15), this is supposed to be a climactic encounter and... some of the players are leaving the game for travel, so losing a couple of characters now gives them a chance to go out with a bang.
Brknlf 10-12-05, 03:42 PM	I think this will probably just reiterate some of the advice given, but its also to say write down and establish the rules for dealing with a large group. When the rules are established and you enforce them, the other players will help you enforce them (the veterans will usually help eagerly, but most players help you to keep some other players in line). Establish the combat round, do time it to seconds and do require all attacks/damage dice to be rolled first. Anyone who has a problem with the attack/damage dice can just color coordinate attacks/damages (ie, 1st attack-red, 2nd-blue, 3rd-clear); with such a large group their should be enough various colors to go around. Dice cultists will have to get over the phobia of cooties and jinxes being put on dice by other players hands. Dice mongers will be helpful if they have a bajillion sets of dice. In fact, the colored sets can be passed around the table in a box or something, along with a set of those little d6's used for games like warhammer. If you have players that just like to RP (such as with shop merchants or the local guards), you can have proxy NPCs played by other players. There was a name for this in the old 2e Campaign handbook (one of the blue cover supplements). They called it something like jamming (perhaps trying to coin the phrase). Basically, if the party wants to split up for mundane things (getting an inn, going to the bar, etc)., have a veteran player (one with DM experience even) play an NPC with a seperate group, just give them any notes they may need to RP (ie, if the party wants to fish for rumors, give them one or two good rumors and allow them to make up false ones or something). Assigning roles is good too; initiative taker/keeper, someone to track spell durations and such, buffer monitor (keeps track of all bonuses in play during combat for the PCs), etc. Again, do write down the rules you come up with for combat and stick to your guns, giving them any running room is when things get out of control.
Thynass 10-12-05, 06:41 PM	Well, that was quite an overwhelming amount of advice! Thanks. I had thought of imposing a time limit on player's rounds (I wanted to stop other players from giving them orders when it was their round as well; stops certain players dominating the whole combat), but I have found it difficult to enforce before. Challenges weren't really a problem (dragons kill just about anything). But thanks. I hope to take some of this advice on board.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 06:56 PM	If one of the players wants to try something new, make him the monsters. You describe all the areas, adjudicate all the rules, hand out XP. The only difference is, this guy gets handed a stack of note cards before every game and told to get familiar with them. While he's going through the MM, you're giving the other players exposition. When a fight comes up, he tries to kill the PCs. Making combat challenging is hard with that many players because you don't want to see one die, but you also have to fight them. This player doesn't have to worry about that. He may even get a reward if he can take out one or two PCs. You get to avoid thinking tactics AND rules. If there is going to be a long period without monsters, find other things for him to do. I've never tried this route, but I played in a game once that did. We called the DM's assistant a "battle troll", and he handled things like running side quests if players split up and he made the soda runs, that sort of thing. It looked boring to me, but he loved it because it gave him a chance to DM with a safety net.
WCH 10-12-05, 07:01 PM	Split the group. I will not DM for a party larger than 5 PCs, including DMPC(s) and one player having more than one character. Just gets too complicated... you end up unintentionally favouring a couple PCs (they can't all have the spotlight...), you can't even remember what some of the PCs' abilities are and it just becomes an administrative quagmire.
rkr1970 10-12-05, 07:06 PM	Split the group. I will not DM for a party larger than 5 PCs, including DMPC(s) and one player having more than one character. Just gets too complicated... you end up unintentionally favouring a couple PCs (they can't all have the spotlight...), you can't even remember what some of the PCs' abilities are and it just becomes an administrative quagmire. He CAN'T split the group, thus the thread! And I've seen DMs handle 10 players with no trouble. I would never try it, but it can be done. As for spotlight, you're right, to a point.That as as much to do with his abilities as the cooperation among players.
WCH 10-12-05, 07:13 PM	He CAN'T split the group, thus the thread! And I've seen DMs handle 10 players with no trouble. I would never try it, but it can be done. As for spotlight, you're right, to a point.That as as much to do with his abilities as the cooperation among players. Sure he can split the group -- doesn't mean he needs to DM for both halves. Just suggest to them that it might be best for one of them to DM for some of the others. Not force the point, but suggest it.
Vaalingrade Ashland 10-12-05, 08:12 PM	As you'll be dealing with lot's of seperate actions and you have to keep the attention of a large group you need to be well prepared every session. Get some of your veteran players to keep the others in line. Have one person track intiative (we use a big board). I also like to keep a pad of graph paper handy to track rounds, and spell durations. Check off a box each round!!! I though you meant something different when I quoted this, but I still think what I'm going to say still fits: While you should be mentally and tactically prepared for each game, when you play with lots of PCs, don't rely too much on your notes. PCs will do as they will and a lot of PCs will do a lot of off beat stuff. Keep the game as loose and open as possible.
primemover003 10-14-05, 04:15 PM	I though you meant something different when I quoted this, but I still think what I'm going to say still fits: While you should be mentally and tactically prepared for each game, when you play with lots of PCs, don't rely too much on your notes. PCs will do as they will and a lot of PCs will do a lot of off beat stuff. Keep the game as loose and open as possible. Yes being Flexible is extremely important... Ad libbing is something every DM needs to practice (cause it's not easy sometimes). But having a definite outline of what's happening (in an event driven adventure) or a Key (for location based adventures) never hurts.