Animal companions and experience awards [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal companions and experience awards [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Chiyo
08-28-06, 03:39 PM My current group is a bit weird in that it features 4 PCs, 3 of which have animal companions.

So far I was rewarding them with experience just for the 4 PCs (not including the animal companions in the number to get a share of the experience). After all, the companions are a part of the class features of druids and rangers so I considered their contribution as that of the druid's/ranger's. But sometimes the contribution of the animal companions is really impressive compared to that of the PCs themselves so it made me wonder.

So should I include those animal companions in the calculation of exp rewards somehow? What's the RAW on this issue (thanks for the reference if someone has one)?

Thanks in advance.
Grand Theft Otto
08-28-06, 03:44 PM Animal companions dont get exp. Neither do summoned creatures, fireballs, or a fighter's axe when he gets a good crit.

I also have a hard time believing a ranger's companion does anything worthwhile by the RAW. We made them equal to ranger's level -3 to actually be of any use as something other than an attrition soaker.
DonJuanDemarco
08-28-06, 03:53 PM Animal companions are the whole reson low-level druids can fight. If they took away XP from players, I would hate the druid class even more than I already do. No, spells and magic items don't lower XP rewards, neither do companions.
Chiyo
08-28-06, 03:57 PM Yeah the group's ranger animal companion is just good for scouting but that negated a few surprise encounters now and then. No big deal. No I was mroe referring to the two druid's companion. With shared buffs, each of those guys (brown bears) are better than the group's ranger in terms of melee and pretty close to the performance of the group's fighter.

Part of the issue is them outshining them in their melee roles. I know it's part of the druid's abilities so they're part of the druid's performance, they're just a little two good (especially in their grappler roles) and it just felt a bit wrong to not account for them when they effectively resolve a large part of some encounters.

Anyway, thanks for confirming it for me. (I remember reading about summoned creatures not counting for exp rewards but is it in the same section for animal companions?)
BoSheck
08-28-06, 04:13 PM There are a few things that you can do as a DM. Taking away xp is not really a viable option, and really makes PCs feel as though -they've- done something wrong. And it tends to create tension/ill will where it shouldn't be. The two druids synergize well, but remember, in order to get your pet to do something, you have to handle it (handle animal as a free action). This isn't going to be a problem for the druids, but they don't have complete and utter control over the situation. There are certain creatures that natural animals just won't go near, and there are also scenarios you can create to force your PCs to rely more on themselves (unless you're running a predrawn adventure, but you're still the DM.) You don't want to kill them, but try an enemy that can fly, or put this wilderness-oriented party in a city. The guard/power center might not react too kindly to bears wandering the streets. Of course, keep in mind, that you could just keep letting them do what they do, the characters may be focused on gaining their power through that connection with nature that is their companion.
Chiyo
08-28-06, 04:55 PM Thanks for the great suggestions.

I've tried the flying enemies... it turned even worse. The ranger was doing ok with his archery skill and the group's fighter was probably gonna do some damage eventually with his bow as well, except the flying creature were swooping down to attack and got mercilessly grappled by the bears. Pinned, it's was a massacre and the ranger and fighters couldn't hit the pinned creatures. So I tried instead range opponents that are physically separated (like across a chasm or the bears just run to them). That worked better but the rest of the party isn't that great from range (especially the fighter) so it's a bit tough to put up a challenging fight that isn't too frustrating for that player either.

But you're right, change of settting must be a better way. Maybe things were any animal would be against the etiquette. I just have to find more ways to keep them in towns but that's tougher for wilderness characters. I've trips in cities or stays at inns to separate them from their companions now and then. It worked when they couldn't prepare for it. Otherwise, they just load up a couple of reduce animal spells and have them pass as dogs making them much less hard to conceal, sneak by guards and such. And they're not that bad in fights when shrunk either so it doesn't change things much. That works for them also if I try to shove them into tight spaces.

The thing that worked are incorporeal things or swarms. Basically stuff that cannot be grappled or hit that easily. But you can only do so many of those. I've considered using an anti-animal shell extended area but again that's just targetting obviously those two druids and I hate to do that since after all, they're not doing anything wrong.

As far as the animals refusing to fight some things, they teach them the attack trick and with their wild empathy checks (at 8th level) it's trivial to make them attack just about anything.

But I don't want to make it a routine of frustrating them with their animals either. Although once(next level)/if they get animal growth spells out, I'm wondering if I won't have to.

Anyway, I agree it wouldn't be fair to reduce only the druids' experience points for it and after all, the rest of the party is starting the encounters as well so they deserve the full share of it too. It just bugs me and I couldn't find the rule saying the companions didn't count towards exp rewards.
DarkRhystar
08-28-06, 05:21 PM But sometimes the contribution of the animal companions is really impressive compared to that of the PCs themselves so it made me wonder.

Turn that around.

The contribution of the PCs is small compared to the animal companions' contributions.

Animal Companions should be strong, otherwise they wouldn't be a useful class feature. It occurs to me though, that if your PCs were doing their share of the heavy lifting (so to speak) that you wouldn't be so concerned.

Consider how you could enable them to contribute more instead of worrying about the animals' contributions.
Chiyo
08-29-06, 01:17 PM Well arguably, the druid's contribution is often to buff their animal companions so part of why their companions are doing so well is because they're greatly enhanced. The druids are also in charge of healing so they're contributing via various way.

What I was concerned about is the contribution of fighter and ranger in group compared to what the companions end up doing in that same area.

Anyway, did anyone find the specific section in the RAW that addresses this issue? I looked again. I found the case of cohorts and of summoned creatures specifically addressed but not animal companions? Is it in a FAQ?
Inigo Carmine
08-29-06, 04:44 PM I've never seen an animal companion be of particularly great power before, especially the ranger as written (in fact, I consider the ranger's companion a liability after about 6/7th level). They are usually only good for flanking buddies or being speed bumps in front of the party wizard.

Well, I take that back. At level 1-2, the druid's companion is a force to be reckoned with, but after that not so much.

It's possible that you guys are making a mistake somewhere along the lines.

A common mistake is to advance the animal companions both as an animal companion, and as monster advancement in the monster manual. For instance, the brown bear does not become large sized when it gets to 7+ HD. As it advances, it gets only what the animal companion description gives it: more natural armor, str/dex, saves, tricks, skillpoints, feats and BAB.

Also, make sure you're using the Alternative companions correctly. For instance, a druid can't have a brown bear as a companion until level 7. And at druid level 7, the brown bear only gains the benefits of a druid level 1 companion (+1 trick, link and share spells).

And one last thing, even though I hate to do it to the ranger companion:
the group's ranger animal companion is just good for scouting but that negated a few surprise encounters

Barring a speak with animal spell, animal companions make poor scouts. Remember that they have no way of communicating with their masters. There is no empathic link or anything. Their best way of avoiding an ambush is that most animals have a scent ability that can detect hidden (and even invisible) foes.
Aeromus
08-29-06, 04:55 PM Make sure you're using tricks correctly. Teaching a brown Bear to Grapple over just mauling would take a trick. Teaching it to pin would again be another trick. Then it needs a trick to attack on command, defend, heel, return, follow me, stay, needs a trick to attack unatural creatures, one per type. Bears don't usually like attacking undead, magicial beasts or abberations.

The animal companian balances itself when the DM requires they be trained and tricks be learned.
Elendoras Greenleaf
08-29-06, 05:00 PM Maybe you could try to get some of their kind against them? Say maybe another druid that is against the fact that some druids are using their animal companion in such harmful and perrilous (sp?) ways. Charm animal, Calm animals, Animal Trance. You could always negate those melee animal companions just as you would every melee character (grease, entangle etc.).

Roleplaying wise: do those animals, even if they're "loyal" do they endure being treated like this? (being sent into danger every time, while the master is in the back?).
Inigo Carmine
08-29-06, 05:18 PM An addendum to my earlier post: you said the bears were terrifying grapplers?

Just double check that you're following the grapple rules correctly. Once inside the grapple, the bear will only be doing 1d3 +str subdual damage to those it's grappling by making grapple checks (or whatever unarmed damage is for them after spells). Alternatively, they can make attacks with a -4 penalty against their grapplee (who still has his dex bonus, because you're denied it against everyone outside the grapple). On an unmodified blackbear, this means an attack mod of +7 vs a grapple mod of +16.

Outside of monks and specialized prestige classes, grappling isn't a very powerful offensive technique. It's main benefit is that if you're good at it, it makes your opponent almost useless while you slowly beat on him. (And the rest of your party *really* beats on him).
Chiyo
08-30-06, 05:10 PM Think I made the mistake in mentioning the black bears. They're brown bears actually but got confused since previous companions were black bears.

Anyway, As far as tricks, I think I read it correctly. The bears can know quite a few tricks (7 for druid 8) and attacking unnatural creatures counts for two tricks period.

As per RAW of handled animals skill, "Teaching and animal to attack ALL creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks)." I didn't read that as "... to attack any one type of unatural creature..." but pretty much anything that moves as directed by the druid.

With 6+ tricks, there's always plenty of room to teach that one to just about any animal companion. The bears having 7, they have attack, defend, down, guard, fetch, come (one has work instead of fetch).

Besides it's not hard for the druids to "push" their animal companion. With +4 to a handle animal skill in the low teens, they need like 3-5 to make them do anything they want. Even if I required grapple to be a separate trick, they'd just push the companions instead.

They also didn't advance them beyond large size. I thought brown bears were large by default from description in MM. The brown bear companions should be smaller than normal brown bears? Right now, they haven't advanced them. They released their previous black bears to get brown ones at 7th. They'll bump them up as per table in druid class description at 9th level I assume.

They just get extended bull strength and greater magic fangs (+2). Yes during grapple (+18 and free action via improved grab), they don't do much but they lock down their opponent eventually killing them just the same. And they don't take much damage while in grapple either. Usually they end up doing 1d3+10 (8 from 27 str, +2 from bull strength) minimum and on soft targets they often go for double claw attacks +11 and bite at +6 (+11/+6 base, -4 for attacking grapplee +2 bull strength +2 magic fang) instead of the automatic grappler damage. Then damage is pretty nasty while not risking retaliation from grapplee who often have bad natural attacks.

But anyway, the idea of monks is interesting hehe. I let them attack some grappler specialists who'll welcome the embrace hehe. That'd be cool. I can throw lots more undeads, elementals and constructs who'd be immune to subdual damage too. That or bigger than huge opponents obviously.

As far as the animals complaining, it's not like if their masters are not wild shaped into animals and enjoying the melee fest either. Both have natural spell to fall back on and pretty close to full day wild shapers now at lvl 8. They share bull's strengths and magic fangs on themselves and the pets so I assumed the bears must see them as very close to animals just like them. One of the druid is more of a summoner so she does stand back a bit more but she usually joins the frey after summoning more augmented animals.

Besides the bears are usually healed promptly after fights and kept well fed so I can't really fault the druids for simply "using" them. Maybe if all they were fighting were things they can't eat, then the bears would eventually complain about having to fight repulsive things. Gets back to undeads, elementals and constructs too there so maybe there's definitely something.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I don't really have a problem with the druids' tactics, was just trying to confirm (via RAW quote) that the companions don't take exp share for their significant contribution.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chiyo 08-28-06, 03:39 PM	My current group is a bit weird in that it features 4 PCs, 3 of which have animal companions. So far I was rewarding them with experience just for the 4 PCs (not including the animal companions in the number to get a share of the experience). After all, the companions are a part of the class features of druids and rangers so I considered their contribution as that of the druid's/ranger's. But sometimes the contribution of the animal companions is really impressive compared to that of the PCs themselves so it made me wonder. So should I include those animal companions in the calculation of exp rewards somehow? What's the RAW on this issue (thanks for the reference if someone has one)? Thanks in advance.
Grand Theft Otto 08-28-06, 03:44 PM	Animal companions dont get exp. Neither do summoned creatures, fireballs, or a fighter's axe when he gets a good crit. I also have a hard time believing a ranger's companion does anything worthwhile by the RAW. We made them equal to ranger's level -3 to actually be of any use as something other than an attrition soaker.
DonJuanDemarco 08-28-06, 03:53 PM	Animal companions are the whole reson low-level druids can fight. If they took away XP from players, I would hate the druid class even more than I already do. No, spells and magic items don't lower XP rewards, neither do companions.
Chiyo 08-28-06, 03:57 PM	Yeah the group's ranger animal companion is just good for scouting but that negated a few surprise encounters now and then. No big deal. No I was mroe referring to the two druid's companion. With shared buffs, each of those guys (brown bears) are better than the group's ranger in terms of melee and pretty close to the performance of the group's fighter. Part of the issue is them outshining them in their melee roles. I know it's part of the druid's abilities so they're part of the druid's performance, they're just a little two good (especially in their grappler roles) and it just felt a bit wrong to not account for them when they effectively resolve a large part of some encounters. Anyway, thanks for confirming it for me. (I remember reading about summoned creatures not counting for exp rewards but is it in the same section for animal companions?)
BoSheck 08-28-06, 04:13 PM	There are a few things that you can do as a DM. Taking away xp is not really a viable option, and really makes PCs feel as though -they've- done something wrong. And it tends to create tension/ill will where it shouldn't be. The two druids synergize well, but remember, in order to get your pet to do something, you have to handle it (handle animal as a free action). This isn't going to be a problem for the druids, but they don't have complete and utter control over the situation. There are certain creatures that natural animals just won't go near, and there are also scenarios you can create to force your PCs to rely more on themselves (unless you're running a predrawn adventure, but you're still the DM.) You don't want to kill them, but try an enemy that can fly, or put this wilderness-oriented party in a city. The guard/power center might not react too kindly to bears wandering the streets. Of course, keep in mind, that you could just keep letting them do what they do, the characters may be focused on gaining their power through that connection with nature that is their companion.
Chiyo 08-28-06, 04:55 PM	Thanks for the great suggestions. I've tried the flying enemies... it turned even worse. The ranger was doing ok with his archery skill and the group's fighter was probably gonna do some damage eventually with his bow as well, except the flying creature were swooping down to attack and got mercilessly grappled by the bears. Pinned, it's was a massacre and the ranger and fighters couldn't hit the pinned creatures. So I tried instead range opponents that are physically separated (like across a chasm or the bears just run to them). That worked better but the rest of the party isn't that great from range (especially the fighter) so it's a bit tough to put up a challenging fight that isn't too frustrating for that player either. But you're right, change of settting must be a better way. Maybe things were any animal would be against the etiquette. I just have to find more ways to keep them in towns but that's tougher for wilderness characters. I've trips in cities or stays at inns to separate them from their companions now and then. It worked when they couldn't prepare for it. Otherwise, they just load up a couple of reduce animal spells and have them pass as dogs making them much less hard to conceal, sneak by guards and such. And they're not that bad in fights when shrunk either so it doesn't change things much. That works for them also if I try to shove them into tight spaces. The thing that worked are incorporeal things or swarms. Basically stuff that cannot be grappled or hit that easily. But you can only do so many of those. I've considered using an anti-animal shell extended area but again that's just targetting obviously those two druids and I hate to do that since after all, they're not doing anything wrong. As far as the animals refusing to fight some things, they teach them the attack trick and with their wild empathy checks (at 8th level) it's trivial to make them attack just about anything. But I don't want to make it a routine of frustrating them with their animals either. Although once(next level)/if they get animal growth spells out, I'm wondering if I won't have to. Anyway, I agree it wouldn't be fair to reduce only the druids' experience points for it and after all, the rest of the party is starting the encounters as well so they deserve the full share of it too. It just bugs me and I couldn't find the rule saying the companions didn't count towards exp rewards.
DarkRhystar 08-28-06, 05:21 PM	But sometimes the contribution of the animal companions is really impressive compared to that of the PCs themselves so it made me wonder. Turn that around. The contribution of the PCs is small compared to the animal companions' contributions. Animal Companions should be strong, otherwise they wouldn't be a useful class feature. It occurs to me though, that if your PCs were doing their share of the heavy lifting (so to speak) that you wouldn't be so concerned. Consider how you could enable them to contribute more instead of worrying about the animals' contributions.
Chiyo 08-29-06, 01:17 PM	Well arguably, the druid's contribution is often to buff their animal companions so part of why their companions are doing so well is because they're greatly enhanced. The druids are also in charge of healing so they're contributing via various way. What I was concerned about is the contribution of fighter and ranger in group compared to what the companions end up doing in that same area. Anyway, did anyone find the specific section in the RAW that addresses this issue? I looked again. I found the case of cohorts and of summoned creatures specifically addressed but not animal companions? Is it in a FAQ?
Inigo Carmine 08-29-06, 04:44 PM	I've never seen an animal companion be of particularly great power before, especially the ranger as written (in fact, I consider the ranger's companion a liability after about 6/7th level). They are usually only good for flanking buddies or being speed bumps in front of the party wizard. Well, I take that back. At level 1-2, the druid's companion is a force to be reckoned with, but after that not so much. It's possible that you guys are making a mistake somewhere along the lines. A common mistake is to advance the animal companions both as an animal companion, and as monster advancement in the monster manual. For instance, the brown bear does not become large sized when it gets to 7+ HD. As it advances, it gets only what the animal companion description gives it: more natural armor, str/dex, saves, tricks, skillpoints, feats and BAB. Also, make sure you're using the Alternative companions correctly. For instance, a druid can't have a brown bear as a companion until level 7. And at druid level 7, the brown bear only gains the benefits of a druid level 1 companion (+1 trick, link and share spells). And one last thing, even though I hate to do it to the ranger companion: the group's ranger animal companion is just good for scouting but that negated a few surprise encounters Barring a speak with animal spell, animal companions make poor scouts. Remember that they have no way of communicating with their masters. There is no empathic link or anything. Their best way of avoiding an ambush is that most animals have a scent ability that can detect hidden (and even invisible) foes.
Aeromus 08-29-06, 04:55 PM	Make sure you're using tricks correctly. Teaching a brown Bear to Grapple over just mauling would take a trick. Teaching it to pin would again be another trick. Then it needs a trick to attack on command, defend, heel, return, follow me, stay, needs a trick to attack unatural creatures, one per type. Bears don't usually like attacking undead, magicial beasts or abberations. The animal companian balances itself when the DM requires they be trained and tricks be learned.
Elendoras Greenleaf 08-29-06, 05:00 PM	Maybe you could try to get some of their kind against them? Say maybe another druid that is against the fact that some druids are using their animal companion in such harmful and perrilous (sp?) ways. Charm animal, Calm animals, Animal Trance. You could always negate those melee animal companions just as you would every melee character (grease, entangle etc.). Roleplaying wise: do those animals, even if they're "loyal" do they endure being treated like this? (being sent into danger every time, while the master is in the back?).
Inigo Carmine 08-29-06, 05:18 PM	An addendum to my earlier post: you said the bears were terrifying grapplers? Just double check that you're following the grapple rules correctly. Once inside the grapple, the bear will only be doing 1d3 +str subdual damage to those it's grappling by making grapple checks (or whatever unarmed damage is for them after spells). Alternatively, they can make attacks with a -4 penalty against their grapplee (who still has his dex bonus, because you're denied it against everyone outside the grapple). On an unmodified blackbear, this means an attack mod of +7 vs a grapple mod of +16. Outside of monks and specialized prestige classes, grappling isn't a very powerful offensive technique. It's main benefit is that if you're good at it, it makes your opponent almost useless while you slowly beat on him. (And the rest of your party really beats on him).
Chiyo 08-30-06, 05:10 PM	Think I made the mistake in mentioning the black bears. They're brown bears actually but got confused since previous companions were black bears. Anyway, As far as tricks, I think I read it correctly. The bears can know quite a few tricks (7 for druid 8) and attacking unnatural creatures counts for two tricks period. As per RAW of handled animals skill, "Teaching and animal to attack ALL creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks)." I didn't read that as "... to attack any one type of unatural creature..." but pretty much anything that moves as directed by the druid. With 6+ tricks, there's always plenty of room to teach that one to just about any animal companion. The bears having 7, they have attack, defend, down, guard, fetch, come (one has work instead of fetch). Besides it's not hard for the druids to "push" their animal companion. With +4 to a handle animal skill in the low teens, they need like 3-5 to make them do anything they want. Even if I required grapple to be a separate trick, they'd just push the companions instead. They also didn't advance them beyond large size. I thought brown bears were large by default from description in MM. The brown bear companions should be smaller than normal brown bears? Right now, they haven't advanced them. They released their previous black bears to get brown ones at 7th. They'll bump them up as per table in druid class description at 9th level I assume. They just get extended bull strength and greater magic fangs (+2). Yes during grapple (+18 and free action via improved grab), they don't do much but they lock down their opponent eventually killing them just the same. And they don't take much damage while in grapple either. Usually they end up doing 1d3+10 (8 from 27 str, +2 from bull strength) minimum and on soft targets they often go for double claw attacks +11 and bite at +6 (+11/+6 base, -4 for attacking grapplee +2 bull strength +2 magic fang) instead of the automatic grappler damage. Then damage is pretty nasty while not risking retaliation from grapplee who often have bad natural attacks. But anyway, the idea of monks is interesting hehe. I let them attack some grappler specialists who'll welcome the embrace hehe. That'd be cool. I can throw lots more undeads, elementals and constructs who'd be immune to subdual damage too. That or bigger than huge opponents obviously. As far as the animals complaining, it's not like if their masters are not wild shaped into animals and enjoying the melee fest either. Both have natural spell to fall back on and pretty close to full day wild shapers now at lvl 8. They share bull's strengths and magic fangs on themselves and the pets so I assumed the bears must see them as very close to animals just like them. One of the druid is more of a summoner so she does stand back a bit more but she usually joins the frey after summoning more augmented animals. Besides the bears are usually healed promptly after fights and kept well fed so I can't really fault the druids for simply "using" them. Maybe if all they were fighting were things they can't eat, then the bears would eventually complain about having to fight repulsive things. Gets back to undeads, elementals and constructs too there so maybe there's definitely something. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I don't really have a problem with the druids' tactics, was just trying to confirm (via RAW quote) that the companions don't take exp share for their significant contribution.