Animal companions for non druids or rangers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Animal companions for non druids or rangers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
imperialjunkie
08-01-05, 05:32 PM I have a player that is a fighter with high Handle Animal skills. He wants a dog as a 'pet.' I'm assuming he wants to use the dog as an animal companion, training it to do tricks. Would you allow a non-druid or a non-ranger have an animal companion?

Thanks for your responses.
Thoronmir
08-01-05, 05:44 PM This may seem like a matter of semantics, but it’s an important distinction … only Druids and Rangers get Animal Companions. Everyone else gets pets. The difference is that no amount of ranks of Handle Animal grants access to the Animal Companion class ability. Your Fighter can train dogs to perform the same tricks that an Animal Companion can learn, but that’s as close as his pet comes to being a Companion. The Fighter’s dog will not progress as a Companion does. The Fighter must always expend a Move Action to Handle the dog (it’s a Free Action for Druids and Rangers Handling their Companions). As long as you’re both clear on the differences between a pet and an Animal Companion, the Fighter is entitled to his dog.

If the RAW did not intend for characters other than Druids and Rangers to have pets, it would not have made Handle Animals available as a skill.
imperialjunkie
08-01-05, 05:48 PM Thanks Thoronmir. That is very clear.
eudas
08-01-05, 05:50 PM There was a web enhancement somewhere on wizards.com where they showed some feats that would enable non-Dr/Ra to have AC's... let me see if I can find it.

as it turns out, it's a "wild cohort", not an "animal companion", but here it is:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a

eudas
pres_man
08-01-05, 06:00 PM You could allow you players to advance their animals using my houserule.

IMPROVING ANIMALS

Animals can be improved using the handle animal skill.
To improve (advance) an animal it requires:
1. Handle animal check DC 20 + (New HD)
2. Cost of 100 gp x (New HD), if a person trains the animal themselves the costs is 1/2 as much.
3. Three weeks of training time, with at least two hours a day dedicated to training, for non-feat obtaining HD. If the increase in HD would allow a feat then it takes four weeks.

Improved animals are difficult to handle and do not respond to handlers/riders who do not have at least 2 more HD than the animal. Druids and Rangers can use this to improve their companions but the difficulty to control still applies.

If in the animal entry, an increase in HD is associated with a larger size, then the animal enlarges as it is advanced. This can be used on animals that would not normally be allowed to advance in the MM. An animal with a fractional HD can be advanced to a full HD, just use the above rules for 1 HD (note it will only take 3 weeks to train, since the animal should already have a feat).

An animal can only be raised one hit die at a time.
jukar
08-01-05, 06:17 PM I have a player that is a fighter with high Handle Animal skills. He wants a dog as a 'pet.' I'm assuming he wants to use the dog as an animal companion, training it to do tricks. Would you allow a non-druid or a non-ranger have an animal companion?

No, I wouldn't. What your fighter wants is a pet. Pets are different from familiars and companions because they do not advance with their masters, but they can be taught tricks, which can be quite helpful.
OmniPaul
08-01-05, 06:45 PM The Animal Cohort feat upsets me because it is actually better than the ranger's animal companion in many ways.

Let's take a ranger and a fighter with the animal cohort feat for example and assume they both get wolves.

-At level 1, the fighter has a wolf whereas the ranger does not even get one until he is ranger level 4.
-At level 4 when the ranger finally gets his wolf, the fighter's wolf has a +1 to HD and AC, a bonus trick, and Evasion. Thanks to the ranger's effective druid level being half his ranger levels (2), his wolf has no bonus to HD or AC, although he gains a bonus trick, link, and share spells.
-At level 10, the fighter's wolf has a +5 to HD and AC, +2 to str and dex, and 3 total bonus tricks. The ranger's wolf, thanks again to his effective druid level (5), has a +2 to HD and AC, +1 to str and dex, 2 total bonus tricks, and evasion.
-Now, let's skip ahead to level 20. The fighter's wolf at this point has a +11 to HD and AC, +5 to str and dex, 6 total bonus tricks, and improved evasion. Also, along the way to level 20, the wolf has also picked up devotion. At this point, the ranger's effective druid level is 10. This gives the ranger's wolf +6 to HD and AC, +3 to str and dex, 4 total bonus tricks, and multiattack. Along the way to level 20, the ranger's wolf has also gained devotion.

So as you can see, at higher levels, the cohort animal is almost twice as strong as the companion animal at the expense of not gaining multiattack, link, and share spells, though those abilities are negligible compared to what it gains.

It's even worse when you take into account switching animals as the fighter gains them faster and is able to switch to animals the ranger will never get until he is far into the epic levels. Because the animal cohort feat treats the fighter as having an effective druid level of his character level minus 3, the fighter will be able to switch to the level 4 druid animals at level 7, while the ranger has to wait until he is level 8. Skipping ahead to level 20, the fighter will be able to switch into the level 16 druid animals (the highest listed), whereas the ranger will be stuck with the level 10 druid animals. Even if the ranger takes the Natural Bond feat from Complete Adventurer, the ranger will still be stuck with the level 13 druid animals. To even qualify for the level 16 druid animals, the ranger will need to be level 32, 26 with Natural Bond.

So while animal cohort may appear to be balanced with the ranger's animal companion class ability at the lower levels, it is strictly better after level 4, all at the cost of one feat (which, in this case, is nothing to the fighter).
Steelpunk
08-01-05, 07:53 PM The Animal Cohort feat upsets me because it is actually better than the ranger's animal companion in many ways.

You have ultimate say in what is and isn't available in your games - if you don't like it, don't allow it. Problem solved :)

There's also a flaw in logic here: if an animal cohort is calculated as druid minus 3, then no one could take the feat until level 4 anyway (unless you're somehow allowing negative levels :) ), which is the same level a ranger gets their companion anyway - the cohort wouldn't be any stronger at level 4 than the companion, since they'd both be "new".
OmniPaul
08-01-05, 09:18 PM Indeed, I don't have to allow it, I'm just expressing my distaste that it was written without any consideration for the ranger (I'm a ranger junkie :D ).

And there isn't really any flaw in logic. I just said that the fighter has a effective druid level of character level minus three for simplification. In the feat description, it says that you treat the fighter as being a druid three levels lower than his character level when you select an alternative animal companion.

Provided the DM gives her approval, at 1st level you can choose from a badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. Like a druid, you can choose more powerful animals as you increase in level. These alternative animal cohorts work like the alternative animal companions available to a druid, but they are available as cohorts later than they are available as animal companions. When selecting an alternative animal cohort, use the list of alternative animal companions on page 36 of the Player's Handbook, but treat yourself as a druid three levels lower than your character level. For example, once you reach 7th level, you can choose an animal cohort off the list of animal companions available to a 4th-level druid.

Furthermore, according to the chart in the feat description, what level you gain the feat is irrelevent since the bonuses the animal gains depend on what your character level is.

Writing this post, I realized there are a few more things I don't like about this feat. One is that, since the abilities it gains depend on your character level, the fighter in the example is free to multi-class and still have his wolf progress while the druid and ranger have to stick with classes having the animal companion class ability for their companion to progress. Another is that a ranger and the druid have their animals given to them at a set level, whereas the fighter in the example could suddenly gain his animal that's stronger than the ranger's and almost as strong as the druids whenever he gains a feat.

No, sir. I don't like it at all.
pres_man
08-01-05, 09:32 PM I agree, I dislike that feat, that is why I came up with the rules for advancing animals above. And why I allowed rangers and druids to do it with their animal companions (though realisticly pure druids wouldn't have much ability to use it due to HD restrictions).
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe
08-02-05, 10:16 AM Typically, when I play a fighter, that's why I take first level in Ranger and then alternate until about my 7th level. (effectively making me Ranger4/Fighter3)

Reasons? Well for the crunchy bits, it would be all about Ambidexterity, TWF, and Animal Companions....not to mention some minor spell casting.

Fluff-wise: I tend to play a more "hippie-gone-mercenary" role as a PC, so it works well that I'm an "out-doorzy" type.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
imperialjunkie 08-01-05, 05:32 PM	I have a player that is a fighter with high Handle Animal skills. He wants a dog as a 'pet.' I'm assuming he wants to use the dog as an animal companion, training it to do tricks. Would you allow a non-druid or a non-ranger have an animal companion? Thanks for your responses.
Thoronmir 08-01-05, 05:44 PM	This may seem like a matter of semantics, but it’s an important distinction … only Druids and Rangers get Animal Companions. Everyone else gets pets. The difference is that no amount of ranks of Handle Animal grants access to the Animal Companion class ability. Your Fighter can train dogs to perform the same tricks that an Animal Companion can learn, but that’s as close as his pet comes to being a Companion. The Fighter’s dog will not progress as a Companion does. The Fighter must always expend a Move Action to Handle the dog (it’s a Free Action for Druids and Rangers Handling their Companions). As long as you’re both clear on the differences between a pet and an Animal Companion, the Fighter is entitled to his dog. If the RAW did not intend for characters other than Druids and Rangers to have pets, it would not have made Handle Animals available as a skill.
imperialjunkie 08-01-05, 05:48 PM	Thanks Thoronmir. That is very clear.
eudas 08-01-05, 05:50 PM	There was a web enhancement somewhere on wizards.com where they showed some feats that would enable non-Dr/Ra to have AC's... let me see if I can find it. as it turns out, it's a "wild cohort", not an "animal companion", but here it is: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a eudas
pres_man 08-01-05, 06:00 PM	You could allow you players to advance their animals using my houserule. IMPROVING ANIMALS Animals can be improved using the handle animal skill. To improve (advance) an animal it requires: 1. Handle animal check DC 20 + (New HD) 2. Cost of 100 gp x (New HD), if a person trains the animal themselves the costs is 1/2 as much. 3. Three weeks of training time, with at least two hours a day dedicated to training, for non-feat obtaining HD. If the increase in HD would allow a feat then it takes four weeks. Improved animals are difficult to handle and do not respond to handlers/riders who do not have at least 2 more HD than the animal. Druids and Rangers can use this to improve their companions but the difficulty to control still applies. If in the animal entry, an increase in HD is associated with a larger size, then the animal enlarges as it is advanced. This can be used on animals that would not normally be allowed to advance in the MM. An animal with a fractional HD can be advanced to a full HD, just use the above rules for 1 HD (note it will only take 3 weeks to train, since the animal should already have a feat). An animal can only be raised one hit die at a time.
jukar 08-01-05, 06:17 PM	I have a player that is a fighter with high Handle Animal skills. He wants a dog as a 'pet.' I'm assuming he wants to use the dog as an animal companion, training it to do tricks. Would you allow a non-druid or a non-ranger have an animal companion? No, I wouldn't. What your fighter wants is a pet. Pets are different from familiars and companions because they do not advance with their masters, but they can be taught tricks, which can be quite helpful.
OmniPaul 08-01-05, 06:45 PM	The Animal Cohort feat upsets me because it is actually better than the ranger's animal companion in many ways. Let's take a ranger and a fighter with the animal cohort feat for example and assume they both get wolves. -At level 1, the fighter has a wolf whereas the ranger does not even get one until he is ranger level 4. -At level 4 when the ranger finally gets his wolf, the fighter's wolf has a +1 to HD and AC, a bonus trick, and Evasion. Thanks to the ranger's effective druid level being half his ranger levels (2), his wolf has no bonus to HD or AC, although he gains a bonus trick, link, and share spells. -At level 10, the fighter's wolf has a +5 to HD and AC, +2 to str and dex, and 3 total bonus tricks. The ranger's wolf, thanks again to his effective druid level (5), has a +2 to HD and AC, +1 to str and dex, 2 total bonus tricks, and evasion. -Now, let's skip ahead to level 20. The fighter's wolf at this point has a +11 to HD and AC, +5 to str and dex, 6 total bonus tricks, and improved evasion. Also, along the way to level 20, the wolf has also picked up devotion. At this point, the ranger's effective druid level is 10. This gives the ranger's wolf +6 to HD and AC, +3 to str and dex, 4 total bonus tricks, and multiattack. Along the way to level 20, the ranger's wolf has also gained devotion. So as you can see, at higher levels, the cohort animal is almost twice as strong as the companion animal at the expense of not gaining multiattack, link, and share spells, though those abilities are negligible compared to what it gains. It's even worse when you take into account switching animals as the fighter gains them faster and is able to switch to animals the ranger will never get until he is far into the epic levels. Because the animal cohort feat treats the fighter as having an effective druid level of his character level minus 3, the fighter will be able to switch to the level 4 druid animals at level 7, while the ranger has to wait until he is level 8. Skipping ahead to level 20, the fighter will be able to switch into the level 16 druid animals (the highest listed), whereas the ranger will be stuck with the level 10 druid animals. Even if the ranger takes the Natural Bond feat from Complete Adventurer, the ranger will still be stuck with the level 13 druid animals. To even qualify for the level 16 druid animals, the ranger will need to be level 32, 26 with Natural Bond. So while animal cohort may appear to be balanced with the ranger's animal companion class ability at the lower levels, it is strictly better after level 4, all at the cost of one feat (which, in this case, is nothing to the fighter).
Steelpunk 08-01-05, 07:53 PM	The Animal Cohort feat upsets me because it is actually better than the ranger's animal companion in many ways. You have ultimate say in what is and isn't available in your games - if you don't like it, don't allow it. Problem solved :) There's also a flaw in logic here: if an animal cohort is calculated as druid minus 3, then no one could take the feat until level 4 anyway (unless you're somehow allowing negative levels :) ), which is the same level a ranger gets their companion anyway - the cohort wouldn't be any stronger at level 4 than the companion, since they'd both be "new".
OmniPaul 08-01-05, 09:18 PM	Indeed, I don't have to allow it, I'm just expressing my distaste that it was written without any consideration for the ranger (I'm a ranger junkie :D ). And there isn't really any flaw in logic. I just said that the fighter has a effective druid level of character level minus three for simplification. In the feat description, it says that you treat the fighter as being a druid three levels lower than his character level when you select an alternative animal companion. Provided the DM gives her approval, at 1st level you can choose from a badger, camel, dire rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy), owl, pony, snake (Small or Medium viper), or wolf. Like a druid, you can choose more powerful animals as you increase in level. These alternative animal cohorts work like the alternative animal companions available to a druid, but they are available as cohorts later than they are available as animal companions. When selecting an alternative animal cohort, use the list of alternative animal companions on page 36 of the Player's Handbook, but treat yourself as a druid three levels lower than your character level. For example, once you reach 7th level, you can choose an animal cohort off the list of animal companions available to a 4th-level druid. Furthermore, according to the chart in the feat description, what level you gain the feat is irrelevent since the bonuses the animal gains depend on what your character level is. Writing this post, I realized there are a few more things I don't like about this feat. One is that, since the abilities it gains depend on your character level, the fighter in the example is free to multi-class and still have his wolf progress while the druid and ranger have to stick with classes having the animal companion class ability for their companion to progress. Another is that a ranger and the druid have their animals given to them at a set level, whereas the fighter in the example could suddenly gain his animal that's stronger than the ranger's and almost as strong as the druids whenever he gains a feat. No, sir. I don't like it at all.
pres_man 08-01-05, 09:32 PM	I agree, I dislike that feat, that is why I came up with the rules for advancing animals above. And why I allowed rangers and druids to do it with their animal companions (though realisticly pure druids wouldn't have much ability to use it due to HD restrictions).
TheErsatzFacsimileOfMe 08-02-05, 10:16 AM	Typically, when I play a fighter, that's why I take first level in Ranger and then alternate until about my 7th level. (effectively making me Ranger4/Fighter3) Reasons? Well for the crunchy bits, it would be all about Ambidexterity, TWF, and Animal Companions....not to mention some minor spell casting. Fluff-wise: I tend to play a more "hippie-gone-mercenary" role as a PC, so it works well that I'm an "out-doorzy" type.