animal players [Archive] - Wizards Community

animal players [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
prax
07-29-07, 12:58 AM one of my players want to play as a wolf (and or winter wolf) with player levels i am in suport of this but i want to know this can be done
dknight100
07-29-07, 02:36 AM The amusing answer? yes, he'll have to be level 2 thanks to his racial hit dice and remember, he has int 2, and cannot speak. Make him roleplay it.

Player 1: What do you think player 3?
Player 3: Growl roar growl growl
Von_Harbringer
07-29-07, 02:39 AM one of my players want to play as a wolf (and or winter wolf) with player levels i am in suport of this but i want to know this can be done

Uhm.. Gummi Bears, Mickey Mouse, Bugs Bunny, or Ms Piggy?
Kouk
07-29-07, 02:47 AM The spell Awaken can have been cast on the player in the past, so that he can start the campaign as an already-Awakened animal.

Awaken
Transmutation
Level: Drd 5
Components: V, S, DF, XP
Casting Time: 24 hours
Range: Touch
Target: Animal or tree touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened).

The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it.

An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s.

An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.

An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any).
XP Cost

250 XP.

You might want the player to come up with some backstory explaining about the Druid who Awakened him.
Me, Myself, & 101 others
07-29-07, 03:01 AM The spell Awaken can have been cast on the player in the past, so that he can start the campaign as an already-Awakened animal.

You might want the player to come up with some backstory explaining about the Druid who Awakened him.

He was drunk :D
dknight100
07-29-07, 03:13 AM Too many people were drowning in wells while lassie the wolf tried to explain to the druid what was going on. For the greater good, he cast Awaken on lassie, so it could just tell him that farmer richards was stuck in a cave.
prax
07-29-07, 04:40 AM well i had planned for him to be a growling non talking wolf who must could take player lvls so he want behind the group in power
Werral
07-29-07, 07:47 AM Ah, Animal CHARACTER. An animal player might have some trouble understanding the intricacies of the D20 system...
Kouk
07-29-07, 08:09 AM well i had planned for him to be a growling non talking wolf who must could take player lvls so he want behind the group in power

It is impossible for an animal to not be behind a player race in power, even if you let it take class levels.

The INT of an animal is capped at 2, which means huge penalties to INT based things, and always just a single skill point per level regardless of class.

(For a Fighter, you may not actually notice I suppose.)

Also, the lack of such things as... hands... can be a major hindrance in the career of adventurer. Besides that he can't hold a magical sword, he will have trouble upgrading any of his damage abilities, he can't really "get a potion" from his bag (you can make a healing biscuit but somebody is gonna have to give it to him), he can't use most items in the game, can't really wear boots/rings/gloves without some custom tailoring...

Animals are limited in their number of attacks, but I imagine you would just allow whatever number he could otherwise have...

I don't think it is unreasonable to disallow animals from speaking verbally. There is a feat that allows creatures that otherwise can't talk to manage it, but it's tough. I think an Awakened creature should understand and perhaps be able to write in a language, or answer simple questions (bark once for yes, twice for no), but other spells that change you into different creatures have requirements that the new form be able to speak for you to be able to speak and cast spells.

He could just be a hyper-intelligent dog that understands language but can only make growls and barks himself. Maybe the other party members can spend 2 skill points to learn his "language" and have sort of a Han Solo and Chewbacca thing going. "RRrr, ruff, *pant*" "What? OK. My friend says you better get off his tail or he'll start biting."

There are a few things though, you could tailor magic items specifically to his form (you could probably get about any item on a wolf if you pay enough, expect to wear earrings though). There is the "Mouthpick" weapon enchantment in Lords of Madness, that lets you wield the weapon with your mouth if you normally have a Bite attack. It's a +1 bonus I think, and you would probably need that for an actual wolf character to do damage.
Sildatorak
07-29-07, 12:06 PM The INT of an animal is capped at 2, which means huge penalties to INT based things, and always just a single skill point per level regardless of class. Rangers, bards, and rogues with 2 int will still get multiple skills per level.

He could just be a hyper-intelligent dog that understands language but can only make growls and barks himself. Maybe the other party members can spend 2 skill points to learn his "language" and have sort of a Han Solo and Chewbacca thing going. "RRrr, ruff, *pant*" "What? OK. My friend says you better get off his tail or he'll start biting."This seems like the direction to go if you want the character to be a real animal. I don't think this would necessitate a level adjustment. 2HD of animal would suck, and the drawbacks are significant.
BW0222
07-29-07, 12:55 PM prax,

one of my players want to play as a wolf (and or winter wolf) with player levels i am in suport of this but i want to know this can be done

There are several issues with players being animals, magical beasts, etc. in typical campaigns.

1. Speech
Most animals, an many magical beasts, can not speak. Either through lack of intelligence or physical abilities. The inability to speak excludes a player from participating. Having to remind a player that he can't speak is annoying and ruling what an intelligent wolf can draw in the sand if equally annoying. Most players can't go 5 minutes, let alone months without talking (in character) at the table. Asking questions, buying stuff, discussions with other players, etc.

IMO, PCs need to be able to talk to participate in most adventures.

2. Inability to Manipulate Items
Another issue. Can't open a door, can't try a knot, can't drink a potion, can't open a scroll case to read the map, can't use most equipment, can't dress themselves, can't use missile weapons, etc. Besides the arguments it causes (why can't I put a cloak on myself?), it quickly becomes annoying and most players won't be able to deal with if for six months solid.

IMO, PCs need to be able to manipulate physical items to participate in most adventures.

3. Size and Physical Restrictions
Large creatures (of any sort) often run into issues just getting into places. Repeated squeezing rules in 5' hallways and a complete inability to get through a normal doorway effectively exclude large-sized folks from many encounters. They can't get into the building to talk to the patron, they can't get up the ladder to the tower, they can't climb a rope, they can't get into the crypt because of the 3' tunnel, etc.

IMO, PCs need to fit through normal sized doors, have methods to get up ladders, etc. in order to participate in most adventures.

4. Exclusion from Towns/Cities/Inns
Depending upon the campaign setting, bizzare PCs can be excluded from a lot of places just based on their race. Most folks aren't doing to allow a wolf into their homes. A winter wolf (known to be evil) would likely be killed on sight -- or at least banned from the city. Staying in the inn, hiding outside of town, etc., etc. again excludes the player from participating in large portions of many campaigns.

IMO, PCs need to be generally accepted in most civilized areas in which the campaign will occur in.

5. HD and Level Adjustment
Many animals and beasts have high level adjustments and racial hit dice. For example, a winter wolf starts out with six racial hit dice and a +3 LA. (for cohorts) That means you start off with 9th-level PCs -- with AC 15, 51hp, a single +9 attack for 1d8+6+1d6, and generally low skill scores. Against a 9th-level fighter (three trolls or hill giant), the winter wolf is seriously underpowdered. Outside of combat, it doesn't have the skills for most non-combat roles (healer, scout, diplomacy, knowledge, etc.)

IMO, animals and beasts are underpowdered in terms of abilities over most PC classes of the same levels -- especially if you start looking for their usefulness outside of combat.
prax
07-31-07, 06:57 AM is there a way to just treat it like a race make him walk on all fours no common give him scent and a +4 to des -2 int and call it a day ?
Kouk
07-31-07, 09:20 AM Maybe some kind of lycanthropy?

Perhaps a Hengeyokai from Oriental Adventures; they are naturally animals but they can assume human or hybrid forms. Similar to lycanthropes, but with fewer abilities and just a +1 LA (from the book) or no LA (with the OA update from Dragon 318, though I think maybe it would be better to leave the LA).
Free1983
07-31-07, 09:43 AM I think that Kouk's idea of lycantrophy is the best one I've read here, but problem is that lycanthropes have a level adjustment of +3 (which means that when your lycanthrope is at level 1, your other players should be at level 4 already to be equal in power as the lycanthrope).

So, if you're willing to start your game at level 4, you should be fine, but, one last warning. If you allow this, your lycanthrope player will have 1d8+1d? (class HD) + CON hp. Which basicly means that he will be very low on hp compared to the other players. So the big bad mean werewolf will be the big bad mean whimp that always gets knocked out first. If you & your player can live with that, go ahead and game on!

Cheers
Me, Myself, & 101 others
07-31-07, 03:56 PM is there a way to just treat it like a race make him walk on all fours no common give him scent and a +4 to des -2 int and call it a day ?

Of course, if this is how you and the player want to do it, there's absolutely no problem with it.

Go to the wolf entry in the monster manual, figure out the right ability modifiers. (if he can't talk, and has no opposable thumbs, you might be a little generous on the attributes). Give him trip, scent, and low light vision. Make him take tracking and weapon focus.

Limit his class choices, fighter would be good, ranger would work if you modified the weapon feats (maybe instead of TWF give the spring attack line?). Stuff like that.

Don't go overboard, make sure he's balanced against the rest of the party. Don't let him steal the spotlight too much. Don't forget to play up the downsides, too. Like him not being able to open doors, not being allowed into buildings, angry farmers coming after him with pitchforks cause they think he ate their sheep, stuff like that.
Heros_Backpack
07-31-07, 04:48 PM To solve the problem of manipulating items, I'd suggest that the wolf acquires a Hand of the Mage as soon as possible. it only costs 900gp and will allow him to use Mage hand as many times as he wants.

As for people not wanting him in town, ask your player if the wolf would be willing to pretend to be another party member's animal companion and get in that way.
ToastedAmphibian
08-06-07, 11:44 PM He wouldnt be able to use magic weapons or armor.

However the stuff about him not being able to use rings, cloaks, amulets, boots ect is crap
A wolf can wear your magic cloak just as easily as you can use the hill giants gloves, magic items in DnD (Excluding weapons and armor) reshape themselves to fit the wearer.
(But, he might need some help putting them on, granted)
But mabey just for fun, make him wear 2 pairs of boots and no gloves!
(And if a Kobold can claw while wearing gloves, then a wolf can claw while wearing boots on its front feet)
Thurbane
08-07-07, 04:13 AM Ah, Animal CHARACTER. An animal player might have some trouble understanding the intricacies of the D20 system...
Damn, beaten to the punch(line)! :D
Fireclave
08-07-07, 04:23 AM Have him play the familiar of another player :D
Conners_of_Sharptooth
08-07-07, 11:04 AM I agree with BW0222. Having an plain-old animal as a PC is going be pretty useless. If your friend has their heart set on being an animal then you at least have to pick one that has a decent int score of a minimum of like 6-7. Anything less then that and the PC can't really think for themselves and will be more interested in finding it's next meal instead of helping the party. No arms mean -8 to climb checks, it's can't speak so no spells with verbal components, it can't use weapons besides it's bite, and it also has no way to communicate with the party.

I think a good solution might be to have the animal PC have been reincarnated by the Reincarnate spell as part of his/her background. 1 or more of the current party members could have know then PC before the change and can now vouch for the animal PC being in the party. This would allow you to give the PC normal ability scores and no LA. If you really wanted to, you could have had some wizard cast some permanency spells on the wolf, thus enabling it to talk.
CeilingNinja
08-07-07, 11:05 AM H
(And if a Kobold can claw while wearing gloves, then a wolf can claw while wearing boots on its front feet)

Wolves don't have a Claw attack - only a Bite.
Spatacus
08-07-07, 11:52 AM Awaken is a must unless your player wishes to RP sniffing the other PCs in inappropriate ways.

Let him take leadership to get a pet Halfling. That'll solve many of his problems. The Halfling Outrider is a fine PRC for his pet, and ToB is full of goodies such as the Island of Blades stance.

Mechanics wise, you'll need to determine the LA of the normal wolf (I think the winter wolf would be too weak to play.) The wolf has many advantages and disadvantages so this step is complicated. I made a post about it here:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13178068#post13178068

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
prax 07-29-07, 12:58 AM	one of my players want to play as a wolf (and or winter wolf) with player levels i am in suport of this but i want to know this can be done
dknight100 07-29-07, 02:36 AM	The amusing answer? yes, he'll have to be level 2 thanks to his racial hit dice and remember, he has int 2, and cannot speak. Make him roleplay it. Player 1: What do you think player 3? Player 3: Growl roar growl growl
Von_Harbringer 07-29-07, 02:39 AM	one of my players want to play as a wolf (and or winter wolf) with player levels i am in suport of this but i want to know this can be done Uhm.. Gummi Bears, Mickey Mouse, Bugs Bunny, or Ms Piggy?
Kouk 07-29-07, 02:47 AM	The spell Awaken can have been cast on the player in the past, so that he can start the campaign as an already-Awakened animal. Awaken Transmutation Level: Drd 5 Components: V, S, DF, XP Casting Time: 24 hours Range: Touch Target: Animal or tree touched Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes You awaken a tree or animal to humanlike sentience. To succeed, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + the animal’s current HD, or the HD the tree will have once awakened). The awakened animal or tree is friendly toward you. You have no special empathy or connection with a creature you awaken, although it serves you in specific tasks or endeavors if you communicate your desires to it. An awakened tree has characteristics as if it were an animated object, except that it gains the plant type and its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are each 3d6. An awakened plant gains the ability to move its limbs, roots, vines, creepers, and so forth, and it has senses similar to a human’s. An awakened animal gets 3d6 Intelligence, +1d3 Charisma, and +2 HD. Its type becomes magical beast (augmented animal). An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount. An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any). XP Cost 250 XP. You might want the player to come up with some backstory explaining about the Druid who Awakened him.
Me, Myself, & 101 others 07-29-07, 03:01 AM	The spell Awaken can have been cast on the player in the past, so that he can start the campaign as an already-Awakened animal. You might want the player to come up with some backstory explaining about the Druid who Awakened him. He was drunk :D
dknight100 07-29-07, 03:13 AM	Too many people were drowning in wells while lassie the wolf tried to explain to the druid what was going on. For the greater good, he cast Awaken on lassie, so it could just tell him that farmer richards was stuck in a cave.
prax 07-29-07, 04:40 AM	well i had planned for him to be a growling non talking wolf who must could take player lvls so he want behind the group in power
Werral 07-29-07, 07:47 AM	Ah, Animal CHARACTER. An animal player might have some trouble understanding the intricacies of the D20 system...
Kouk 07-29-07, 08:09 AM	well i had planned for him to be a growling non talking wolf who must could take player lvls so he want behind the group in power It is impossible for an animal to not be behind a player race in power, even if you let it take class levels. The INT of an animal is capped at 2, which means huge penalties to INT based things, and always just a single skill point per level regardless of class. (For a Fighter, you may not actually notice I suppose.) Also, the lack of such things as... hands... can be a major hindrance in the career of adventurer. Besides that he can't hold a magical sword, he will have trouble upgrading any of his damage abilities, he can't really "get a potion" from his bag (you can make a healing biscuit but somebody is gonna have to give it to him), he can't use most items in the game, can't really wear boots/rings/gloves without some custom tailoring... Animals are limited in their number of attacks, but I imagine you would just allow whatever number he could otherwise have... I don't think it is unreasonable to disallow animals from speaking verbally. There is a feat that allows creatures that otherwise can't talk to manage it, but it's tough. I think an Awakened creature should understand and perhaps be able to write in a language, or answer simple questions (bark once for yes, twice for no), but other spells that change you into different creatures have requirements that the new form be able to speak for you to be able to speak and cast spells. He could just be a hyper-intelligent dog that understands language but can only make growls and barks himself. Maybe the other party members can spend 2 skill points to learn his "language" and have sort of a Han Solo and Chewbacca thing going. "RRrr, ruff, pant" "What? OK. My friend says you better get off his tail or he'll start biting." There are a few things though, you could tailor magic items specifically to his form (you could probably get about any item on a wolf if you pay enough, expect to wear earrings though). There is the "Mouthpick" weapon enchantment in Lords of Madness, that lets you wield the weapon with your mouth if you normally have a Bite attack. It's a +1 bonus I think, and you would probably need that for an actual wolf character to do damage.
Sildatorak 07-29-07, 12:06 PM	The INT of an animal is capped at 2, which means huge penalties to INT based things, and always just a single skill point per level regardless of class. Rangers, bards, and rogues with 2 int will still get multiple skills per level. He could just be a hyper-intelligent dog that understands language but can only make growls and barks himself. Maybe the other party members can spend 2 skill points to learn his "language" and have sort of a Han Solo and Chewbacca thing going. "RRrr, ruff, pant" "What? OK. My friend says you better get off his tail or he'll start biting."This seems like the direction to go if you want the character to be a real animal. I don't think this would necessitate a level adjustment. 2HD of animal would suck, and the drawbacks are significant.
BW0222 07-29-07, 12:55 PM	prax, one of my players want to play as a wolf (and or winter wolf) with player levels i am in suport of this but i want to know this can be done There are several issues with players being animals, magical beasts, etc. in typical campaigns. 1. Speech Most animals, an many magical beasts, can not speak. Either through lack of intelligence or physical abilities. The inability to speak excludes a player from participating. Having to remind a player that he can't speak is annoying and ruling what an intelligent wolf can draw in the sand if equally annoying. Most players can't go 5 minutes, let alone months without talking (in character) at the table. Asking questions, buying stuff, discussions with other players, etc. IMO, PCs need to be able to talk to participate in most adventures. 2. Inability to Manipulate Items Another issue. Can't open a door, can't try a knot, can't drink a potion, can't open a scroll case to read the map, can't use most equipment, can't dress themselves, can't use missile weapons, etc. Besides the arguments it causes (why can't I put a cloak on myself?), it quickly becomes annoying and most players won't be able to deal with if for six months solid. IMO, PCs need to be able to manipulate physical items to participate in most adventures. 3. Size and Physical Restrictions Large creatures (of any sort) often run into issues just getting into places. Repeated squeezing rules in 5' hallways and a complete inability to get through a normal doorway effectively exclude large-sized folks from many encounters. They can't get into the building to talk to the patron, they can't get up the ladder to the tower, they can't climb a rope, they can't get into the crypt because of the 3' tunnel, etc. IMO, PCs need to fit through normal sized doors, have methods to get up ladders, etc. in order to participate in most adventures. 4. Exclusion from Towns/Cities/Inns Depending upon the campaign setting, bizzare PCs can be excluded from a lot of places just based on their race. Most folks aren't doing to allow a wolf into their homes. A winter wolf (known to be evil) would likely be killed on sight -- or at least banned from the city. Staying in the inn, hiding outside of town, etc., etc. again excludes the player from participating in large portions of many campaigns. IMO, PCs need to be generally accepted in most civilized areas in which the campaign will occur in. 5. HD and Level Adjustment Many animals and beasts have high level adjustments and racial hit dice. For example, a winter wolf starts out with six racial hit dice and a +3 LA. (for cohorts) That means you start off with 9th-level PCs -- with AC 15, 51hp, a single +9 attack for 1d8+6+1d6, and generally low skill scores. Against a 9th-level fighter (three trolls or hill giant), the winter wolf is seriously underpowdered. Outside of combat, it doesn't have the skills for most non-combat roles (healer, scout, diplomacy, knowledge, etc.) IMO, animals and beasts are underpowdered in terms of abilities over most PC classes of the same levels -- especially if you start looking for their usefulness outside of combat.
prax 07-31-07, 06:57 AM	is there a way to just treat it like a race make him walk on all fours no common give him scent and a +4 to des -2 int and call it a day ?
Kouk 07-31-07, 09:20 AM	Maybe some kind of lycanthropy? Perhaps a Hengeyokai from Oriental Adventures; they are naturally animals but they can assume human or hybrid forms. Similar to lycanthropes, but with fewer abilities and just a +1 LA (from the book) or no LA (with the OA update from Dragon 318, though I think maybe it would be better to leave the LA).
Free1983 07-31-07, 09:43 AM	I think that Kouk's idea of lycantrophy is the best one I've read here, but problem is that lycanthropes have a level adjustment of +3 (which means that when your lycanthrope is at level 1, your other players should be at level 4 already to be equal in power as the lycanthrope). So, if you're willing to start your game at level 4, you should be fine, but, one last warning. If you allow this, your lycanthrope player will have 1d8+1d? (class HD) + CON hp. Which basicly means that he will be very low on hp compared to the other players. So the big bad mean werewolf will be the big bad mean whimp that always gets knocked out first. If you & your player can live with that, go ahead and game on! Cheers
Me, Myself, & 101 others 07-31-07, 03:56 PM	is there a way to just treat it like a race make him walk on all fours no common give him scent and a +4 to des -2 int and call it a day ? Of course, if this is how you and the player want to do it, there's absolutely no problem with it. Go to the wolf entry in the monster manual, figure out the right ability modifiers. (if he can't talk, and has no opposable thumbs, you might be a little generous on the attributes). Give him trip, scent, and low light vision. Make him take tracking and weapon focus. Limit his class choices, fighter would be good, ranger would work if you modified the weapon feats (maybe instead of TWF give the spring attack line?). Stuff like that. Don't go overboard, make sure he's balanced against the rest of the party. Don't let him steal the spotlight too much. Don't forget to play up the downsides, too. Like him not being able to open doors, not being allowed into buildings, angry farmers coming after him with pitchforks cause they think he ate their sheep, stuff like that.
Heros_Backpack 07-31-07, 04:48 PM	To solve the problem of manipulating items, I'd suggest that the wolf acquires a Hand of the Mage as soon as possible. it only costs 900gp and will allow him to use Mage hand as many times as he wants. As for people not wanting him in town, ask your player if the wolf would be willing to pretend to be another party member's animal companion and get in that way.
ToastedAmphibian 08-06-07, 11:44 PM	He wouldnt be able to use magic weapons or armor. However the stuff about him not being able to use rings, cloaks, amulets, boots ect is crap A wolf can wear your magic cloak just as easily as you can use the hill giants gloves, magic items in DnD (Excluding weapons and armor) reshape themselves to fit the wearer. (But, he might need some help putting them on, granted) But mabey just for fun, make him wear 2 pairs of boots and no gloves! (And if a Kobold can claw while wearing gloves, then a wolf can claw while wearing boots on its front feet)
Thurbane 08-07-07, 04:13 AM	Ah, Animal CHARACTER. An animal player might have some trouble understanding the intricacies of the D20 system... Damn, beaten to the punch(line)! :D
Fireclave 08-07-07, 04:23 AM	Have him play the familiar of another player :D
Conners_of_Sharptooth 08-07-07, 11:04 AM	I agree with BW0222. Having an plain-old animal as a PC is going be pretty useless. If your friend has their heart set on being an animal then you at least have to pick one that has a decent int score of a minimum of like 6-7. Anything less then that and the PC can't really think for themselves and will be more interested in finding it's next meal instead of helping the party. No arms mean -8 to climb checks, it's can't speak so no spells with verbal components, it can't use weapons besides it's bite, and it also has no way to communicate with the party. I think a good solution might be to have the animal PC have been reincarnated by the Reincarnate spell as part of his/her background. 1 or more of the current party members could have know then PC before the change and can now vouch for the animal PC being in the party. This would allow you to give the PC normal ability scores and no LA. If you really wanted to, you could have had some wizard cast some permanency spells on the wolf, thus enabling it to talk.
CeilingNinja 08-07-07, 11:05 AM	H (And if a Kobold can claw while wearing gloves, then a wolf can claw while wearing boots on its front feet) Wolves don't have a Claw attack - only a Bite.
Spatacus 08-07-07, 11:52 AM	Awaken is a must unless your player wishes to RP sniffing the other PCs in inappropriate ways. Let him take leadership to get a pet Halfling. That'll solve many of his problems. The Halfling Outrider is a fine PRC for his pet, and ToB is full of goodies such as the Island of Blades stance. Mechanics wise, you'll need to determine the LA of the normal wolf (I think the winter wolf would be too weak to play.) The wolf has many advantages and disadvantages so this step is complicated. I made a post about it here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13178068#post13178068